Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by chromas on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:01PM   Printer-friendly
from the year-of-Linux-on-the-desktop dept.

Has no one seen this yet? Don't cross the streams!

Ars Technica:

Earlier today, we wrote that Microsoft was going to add some big new features to the Windows Subsystem for Linux, including native support for Docker containers. It turns out that that ain't the half of it.

Not even half.

All is changing with Windows Subsystem for Linux 2. Instead of emulating the Linux kernel APIs on the NT kernel, WSL 2 is going to run a full Linux kernel in a lightweight virtual machine. This kernel will be trimmed down and tailored to this particular use case, with stripped-down hardware support (since it will defer to the host Windows OS for that) and faster booting.

The Linux kernel is GPLed open source; the GPL license requires that any modifications made to the code must be published and made available under the GPL license. Microsoft will duly comply with this, publishing the patches and modifications it makes to the kernel. WSL 2 will also use a similar split as the current WSL does: the kernel component will be shipped with Windows while "personalities" as provided by the various Linux distributions can be installed from the Microsoft Store.

To quote Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this."


Original Submission

Related Stories

Microsoft Windows Linux for Everybody 67 comments

Microsoft's Windows Subsystem for Linux is coming to all Windows 10 users (archive):

You won't have to be a tester to try Windows 10's new, built-in Linux kernel in the near future. Microsoft has confirmed that Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 will be widely available when Windows 10 version 2004 arrives. You'll have to install it manually for a "few months" until an update adds automatic installs and updates, but that's a small price to pay if you want Linux and Windows to coexist in peace and harmony. It'll be easier to set up, at least -- the kernel will now be delivered through Windows Update instead of forcing you to install an entire Windows image.

Embrace, Extend... Excite!

Windows blog post.

Previously: Windows 10 Will Soon Ship with a Full, Open Source, GPLed Linux Kernel


Original Submission

Open Source's Eric Raymond: Windows 10 Will Soon be Just an Emulation Layer on Linux Kernel 41 comments

Open source's Eric Raymond: Windows 10 will soon be just an emulation layer on Linux kernel

Will Windows lose the last phase of the desktop wars to Linux? Noted open-source advocate Eric Raymond thinks so.

Celebrated open-source software advocate and author Eric Raymond, who's long argued Linux will rule the desktop, reckons it won't be long before Windows 10 becomes an emulation layer over a Linux kernel.

[...] Looking further into the future, Raymond sees Microsoft killing off Windows emulation altogether after it reaches the point where everything under the Windows user interface has already moved to Linux.

"Third-party software providers stop shipping Windows binaries in favor of ELF binaries with a pure Linux API... and Linux finally wins the desktop wars, not by displacing Windows but by co-opting it. Perhaps this is always how it had to be," Raymond projects.

Is It Time for Windows and Linux to Converge?

Last phase of the desktop wars?

The two most intriguing developments in the recent evolution of the Microsoft Windows operating system are Windows System for Linux (WSL) and the porting of their Microsoft Edge browser to Ubuntu.

For those of you not keeping up, WSL allows unmodified Linux binaries to run under Windows 10. No emulation, no shim layer, they just load and go.

[...] Proton is the emulation layer that allows Windows games distributed on Steam to run over Linux. It's not perfect yet, but it's getting close. I myself use it to play World of Warships on the Great Beast.

The thing about games is that they are the most demanding possible stress test for a Windows emulation layer, much more so than business software. We may already be at the point where Proton-like technology is entirely good enough to run Windows business software over Linux. If not, we will be soon.

So, you're a Microsoft corporate strategist. What's the profit-maximizing path forward given all these factors?

It's this: Microsoft Windows becomes a Proton-like emulation layer over a Linux kernel, with the layer getting thinner over time as more of the support lands in the mainline kernel sources. The economic motive is that Microsoft sheds an ever-larger fraction of its development costs as less and less has to be done in-house.

If you think this is fantasy, think again. The best evidence that it's already the plan is that Microsoft has already ported Edge to run under Linux. There is only one way that makes any sense, and that is as a trial run for freeing the rest of the Windows utility suite from depending on any emulation layer.

So, the end state this all points at is: New Windows is mostly a Linux kernel, there's an old-Windows emulation over it, but Edge and the rest of the Windows user-land utilities don't use the emulation. The emulation layer is there for games and other legacy third-party software.

Also at The Register.

Previously: Windows 10 Will Soon Ship with a Full, Open Source, GPLed Linux Kernel
Call Me Crazy, but Windows 11 Could Run On Linux
Microsoft Windows Linux for Everybody


Original Submission #1Original Submission #2Original Submission #3

What is Microsoft Doing with Linux? Everything You Need to Know about its Plans for Open Source 30 comments

With an article that covers "From Cancer to Cloud" and beyond, Techrepublic asks: What is Microsoft Doing With Linux? Everything You Need to Know About its Plans for Open Source

'Microsoft and Linux' should be a phrase we're used to hearing by now. Microsoft is a member of not only the Linux Foundation but also the Linux kernel security mailing list... Microsoft is submitting patches to the Linux kernel... And when Microsoft wanted to add container support to Windows, it picked an open-source specification designed originally for [Linux].

Now Azure customers get the same hybrid benefits for Linux support contracts as they do for Windows Server licences; Windows runs Linux binaries; some key Microsoft applications are available on Linux; and new services might be built with Linux.

[...] At the recent Azure Open Day, Kubernetes co-founder and Microsoft corporate vice-president Brendan Burns talked about Microsoft having a deep understanding of Linux and contributing to existing open-source projects based on Linux as well as founding new ones like Dapr (Distributed Application Runtime).

[...] In short, Microsoft 'hearts' Linux.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by TheFool on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:12PM (11 children)

    by TheFool (7105) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:12PM (#840156)

    Microsoft has been gluing all kinds of complex features into the file system stack to make the weasel (WSL) work. Some of them have been things that have always been there but never practically used (i.e. case-sensitivity in NTFS), but others are completely new, like changing the delete semantics or allowing you to get file attributes returned on opening the file (or without opening it at all).

    All those features would have been fine if MS was still in the business of actually designing things, rather than bolting on half-baked features and having other people test them. And I do imagine they will keep them, because they are good for performance. But this should keep them from growing new ones, at least until the next Big Thing comes along.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by acid andy on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:00PM (10 children)

      by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:00PM (#840198) Homepage Journal

      Some of them have been things that have always been there but never practically used (i.e. case-sensitivity in NTFS)

      I.e. [wikipedia.org] stands for the Latin "id est", meaning "that is". The abbreviation is to be used to mean "in other words" and would have only been appropriate if there were exactly one thing that has "always been there but never practically used". E.g. [wikipedia.org] standing for "exempli gratia", meaning "for example" would have been appropriate here.

      I normally bite my tongue rather than indulging in grammar n****ism but this particular misuse is annoying because I've seen many more examples of people getting the two phrases the wrong way around in everyday use than examples of them being used correctly. Soylentils can and should know better. The slightly hokey way I learnt to remember it as a child was e.g. starts with "e" as does "example" whereas i.e. starts with "i" as does "in other words".

      Glad to be of service.

      --
      Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by TheFool on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:17PM (1 child)

        by TheFool (7105) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:17PM (#840205)

        Thanks. Unfortunately, it will almost certainly fall out of my head before I get to use it next, and I will probably make the same mistake. But it may help someone else.

        • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:25PM

          by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:25PM (#840210) Homepage Journal

          You're welcome and thanks for taking my comment in such good spirits.

          --
          Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:48PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:48PM (#840340)

        There is nothing wrong with using "in other words" and "for example". You don't have to use abbreviations of latin terms. Typing a few words extra is hardly problematic even if you have moderate typing skills, and the result is easier to read.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:08PM (#840356)

        The way I remember it is that "e.g." sounds like the start of "example" in the local accent (sort of like egg-sample); while "i.e." is close to "I.D.," which is used to identify a particular thing.

      • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:20PM

        by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:20PM (#840369) Homepage Journal

        Ha ha--only on SoylentNews could I get "5, Informative" for correcting someone's use of abbreviated Latin phrases :D

        --
        Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:47PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:47PM (#840450)

        Huh, I never actually knew the difference. I'm pretty sure I've still managed to use it correctly myself, but it's certainly been just a lucky accident.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:58PM (3 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:58PM (#840464) Homepage
        > n****ism

        You appear to be misspelling that word before bowlderizing it.

        HTH. HAND.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 2, Funny) by whatteaux on Wednesday May 08 2019, @12:17AM (1 child)

          by whatteaux (6569) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @12:17AM (#840531)

          > You appear to be misspelling that word before bowlderizing it.

          Speaking of misspelling: perhaps you meant "bowdlerise"?
          The ironing is delicious.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:16AM

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:16AM (#840622) Homepage
            No irony, I'm just deliberately ensuring Skitt's Law holds true. Are you really not familiar with what follows "HTH. HAND."? Let me enlighten you - it's "YHBT.".

            I also made sure I can support that claim by posting this to the #shitlords IRC channel a few seconds before clicking submit:
            <@FatPhil> bowlderizing - snigger...
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by jb on Wednesday May 08 2019, @07:50AM

          by jb (338) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @07:50AM (#840677)

          > n****ism

          You appear to be misspelling that word

          Nah, I reckon he meant "grammar nihilism", which both fits the blanks and matches the thrust of his post, since the error he pointed out in the GP was not one of grammar but one of semantics...

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Revek on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:14PM (12 children)

    by Revek (5022) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:14PM (#840157)

    I don't. Its crazy that microsoft is trying to be both operating systems now. If I want linux I run linux. If I want windows I run linux kvm and install windows. I don't however want windows. I use it at work and thats about it.

    --
    This page was generated by a Swarm of Roaming Elephants
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:33PM (9 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:33PM (#840172) Journal

      You said it better than I could. Windows only at work, where I'm not responsible for maintaining it.

      If I want Linux, I want real Linux.

      I don't want to develop against "weasel" (WSL / WSL2) Linux. I don't want to one day find that it doesn't actually run in production on real Linux because all testing was done on weasel.

      Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

      BTW, back when Microsoft licensed Java, remember that? They then "extended" Java so developers would use the extended APIs, but under the "java" package name, only to find out later that their Java programs didn't run on anything non-Windows. This was in clear violation of the black-letters of the paper contract. Sun sued. Won $1.2 Billion. Then .NET / C# was born, because Java and how its ecosystem worked was just too valuable not to have on Windows. Point: why wouldn't Microsoft sneak in ugly things like this with weasel Linux? Because they're such good guys?

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:41PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:41PM (#840181)

        There's only one real Linu: Microsoft Windows Linux 11.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by TheFool on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:43PM (4 children)

        by TheFool (7105) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:43PM (#840184)

        I think it's pretty likely that Microsoft isn't targeting what you want. They are targeting what your employer wants - because your employer has a lot more money and will pay enterprise licensing costs.

        That said, your employer cares more about the apps and (sometimes) the OS features. They don't care much about the kernel. And wouldn't it be nice for MS if they never had to pay a kernel dev again, but instead got the majority of the work by leeching off of other peoples' goodwill?

        I think you're likely to see a Linux distro owned by Microsoft within 10 years or so. Either they will buy one or they will just make one and slowly introduce it through various weasels. And they'll market it to your employer, not you. That would be the "extend" bit, I think.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Revek on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:03PM (3 children)

          by Revek (5022) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:03PM (#840203)

          Except, my employer does not have to pay licensing for any of his Linux products. He pays me to maintain them. There are two machines with several instances running on them. Its a mixture of CentOS and Ubuntu. He will have trouble understanding why he needs to pay Microsoft for what he now get at no added cost.

          --
          This page was generated by a Swarm of Roaming Elephants
          • (Score: 2) by TheFool on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:34PM (1 child)

            by TheFool (7105) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:34PM (#840253)

            He will have trouble understanding why he needs to pay Microsoft for what he now get at no added cost.

            The argument is usually:

            You have both Windows and Linux boxes. Wouldn't it be easier if the company's IT department could maintain both through a common (MS-owned) interface?/

            or

            Why are you paying some local guy to maintain these machines? We know how to maintain it better than they do. Wouldn't it be more efficient to move everything into The Cloud and let us manage it, while they do something else?

            If neither works against your employer, that's wonderful. Mine fell to the latter recently after resisting for a few years. And now I'm being pressured into using WSL rather than building on my actual CentOS box. It's a small company, so there is no iron-fisted IT that owns our dev boxes. But at my old company it would have been an easy sell. The IT department there only knew "Windows", but they'd be perfectly happy with a Windows Desktop Environment running Linux underneath.

            • (Score: 4, Funny) by TheFool on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:37PM

              by TheFool (7105) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:37PM (#840258)

              Oof, seems I can't close my tags either. Rough day.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:57PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:57PM (#840393)

            Because Microsoft will make it cheaper for them to pay Microsoft and get support for it than what they pay you. Then you're out of a job.

      • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:57PM (1 child)

        by Pino P (4721) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:57PM (#840226) Journal

        If I want Linux, I want real Linux.

        Assuming that by "real Linux" you mean "Linux on the bare metal": That's practical for many but not for all.

        First, someone might be stuck with hardware that runs Linux poorly. One example is an ASUS Transformer Book T100TA [debian.org], where suspend, screen backlight control, Bluetooth, and the camera are all broken, and networking requires proprietary drivers so you may have to buy a USB NIC to break the Catch-22.

        Second, someone might need to run Windows-only applications that fail in Wine but possess only a Windows license that forbids use in a virtual machine. Last I checked, the OEM Windows license that came with a PC allowed only bare metal use, not use in a VM (source [vmware.com]), and retail Windows Pro licenses cost $200. Or is there a way to seamlessly synchronize web browser, office suite, and media playing sessions across a dual boot, so that I can reboot and come back from the restroom to find all the same things open in the other OS?

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:36PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:36PM (#840257) Journal

          I'm not unhappy with Linux on a beefy VM. As long as it doesn't interfere with my work. And that's the bottom line.

          In fact the beefy VM may be a lot better as I think about it. I am not responsible for maintaining the hardware. I may never even see the hardware. I can google for the type of processor I'm running on and have my eyes pop out at how many thousands of dollars that chip costs. But I also have two decent physical servers in my office. The most recent was about $11,000 -- and about half of that is the Windows OS -- yes really. Hyper-V (boo!). But I can spin up Linux VMs just fine and so have little to complain about.

          I do run some Windows in a VM -- but Windows Server 2012 VMs. Because the Windows 2012 Server Data Center Edition (in my office) allows me to (is licensed to) create unlimited Windows 2012 Server VMs and activate them. That is not a desktop OS. But it runs everything I need just fine.

          I hadn't really thought about bare metal. But now that I do, I think VMs offer WAY more flexibility.

          Here is the most amusing thing. Since I am a Java developer, using Eclipse, and mostly open source apps (gimp, inkscape, libreoffice etc), I don't have much need of any Windows-Only apps. But those I do have (Office, Outlook, Skype, etc) are installed and maintained on my desktop by the IT department. I don't have to deal with keeping them running.

          If I need to run a different Windows Server OS, that can be done. Install it. Put in the request. CIT will come along and activate it for me.

          If I need to virtualize a Windows Desktop OS, that can also be done. An extra few hoops to jump through in putting in the paperwork. I did it years ago, but no more. It's easier to just use a Windows Server OS, or a Linux GUI or a Linux sans GUI.

          Within my organization, I see everything warming up to open source a lot now. It's like everyone is catching up to where I was fifteen years ago.

          --
          I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday May 08 2019, @11:16AM

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @11:16AM (#840717)

        I do think it's part of the EEE strategy, really. Linux on the desktop is extremely rare with casual household computer users but extremely common with software engineers. Microsoft is now trying to offer a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too option to software engineers, a way to access all of the Windows-compatible software you want (including games) and the Linux development software and development environment you like too.

        The reason this is bad is that some portion of the software engineers doing their day job from Linux also contribute to the Linux ecosystem. If they're working in WSL that becomes less attractive, because instead of saying, "I want to do XYZ but I can't right now because it's only on Windows and I'm running $FAVORITELINUXDISTRO. I'll help build an equivalent that works on Linux." they can say, "I want to do XYZ, and it only works on Windows. I'm on Windows, I'll use it."

        This isn't as unethical as Microsoft's J++ attempt to hijack Java or the intentional web standards incompatibility in most versions of Internet Explorer, but it's still a way to chip away at the Linux desktop ecosystem.

    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:09PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:09PM (#840229)

      If I want linux I run linux. If I want windows I run linux kvm and install windows. I don't however want windows.

      Here you go:
      # sudo apt-get --with-extreme-prejudice purge windows

    • (Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:51AM

      by driverless (4770) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:51AM (#840575)

      It's a better Windows than Windows, a better Linux than Linux.

      Wait, wasn't there already a company that tried that sort of approach in the past? How did that work out for them?

  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:16PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:16PM (#840159)

    So they'll ship coLinux [colinux.org]?

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:18PM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:18PM (#840160)

    Is 2019 the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:35PM (4 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:35PM (#840174) Journal

      2019 or 2020.

      But not Microsoft Linux on Windows.

      Chromebooks. They are gaining in popularity. Cheap. Easy enough for grandma to use. And gradually sneaking in more and more capability over time. (Android apps, Linux)

      Linux on the desktop will probably happen, but may sneak up on us in a way people aren't looking for.

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:25PM (3 children)

        by Pino P (4721) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:25PM (#840277) Journal

        Chromebooks. [...] gradually sneaking in more and more capability over time. (Android apps, Linux)

        Except for Chromebooks whose kernel is too old. If the kernel is 3.14 or older, no Crostini for you. Are Walmart and Best Buy still selling Chromebooks that will never get Crostini?

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:10PM (2 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:10PM (#840312) Journal

          Yep.

          IMO, the old ones will eventually attrition out.

          Something similar happens with many tech products. You can buy a TV that's not 4K. But the time will come when that will probably end.

          Most people buying Chromebooks are blissfully unaware. Those looking for those specific features know what to look for. I believe in time all new chromebooks will support those features.

          This is chromebooks sneaking in more capability to compete with some low end windows laptops, for some types of users.

          --
          I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
          • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday May 08 2019, @05:18PM (1 child)

            by Pino P (4721) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @05:18PM (#840892) Journal

            You can buy a TV that's not 4K. But the time will come when that will probably end.

            There's a difference here. TVs have a conspicuous 720p, 1080p, or 4K marking on the box. I haven't seen a Chromebook box with such a marking for "Crostini" or "Linux app support". Likewise, I don't usually see a 🐧 mark for Linux compatibility on the packaging of mass market Windows laptops or PC peripherals, even if ⊞ for Windows and 🍎 for macOS are present.

            Those looking for those specific features know what to look for.

            Yet the in-store display of specifications at Walmart or Best Buy doesn't list these specific features, and sales associates are clueless. So among the following, which is most common?

            A. Print out a list of all model numbers with Crostini support and carry that into the store
            B. Make a trip to the store, write down all Chromebook model numbers on display, take that list home to cross off those without Crostini support, and make a second trip for the purchase
            C. Purchase a second mobile Internet device and cellular Internet service for that device with which to look up each model's Crostini support status in-store
            D. Buy online, wait a week for Super Saver Shipping, and if you end up not liking its screen or keyboard, too bad

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @08:02PM

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 08 2019, @08:02PM (#840965) Journal

              On the recent Pinebook post to SN, I posted a link that says, all new Chromebooks launched this year will support Linux. Which I presume would also mean supports Android, since Android support seems to be a lower bar than the Crostini support.

              --
              I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:37PM (3 children)

      by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:37PM (#840177)

      Being dragged there, ready or not. I'm not sure what MS are up to, but one cynical take is they're trying to make Linux look bad to the general non-technical public. The details will be interesting.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:48PM (2 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:48PM (#840189) Journal

        You no doubt saw what I mention about Chromebooks.

        Microsoft might succeed in making Linux look bad . . . on Windows. Using Microsoft Linux.

        But people still use Linux every day without even knowing it. Once it is pointed out to them just how much they have used Linux for years, that might change everyone's impression.

        --
        I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday May 08 2019, @03:51AM (1 child)

          by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @03:51AM (#840615)

          > You no doubt saw what I mention about Chromebooks.

          No, sorry, I did what I do too often: glance, post, read later. Sometimes regret (no post submission edits allowed!) But now I have read your Chromebook comments. I have very little direct experience. I had my hands on one once several years ago and tried to install something (I forget) and quickly discovered it's not as simple as I had expected. Hmmm. If someone gave me one I'd have to tinker and figure it all out, but I have enough more interesting things to do. But I like the concept and the prices look good.

          Yes, long time Linux admin here. Most people barely know how many cylinders their car's engine has, and generally don't care from what I can tell. I tell people about Linux in Android, etc., and I get blank stares, or maybe a "huh". They care about the UI, but seem to adapt to almost anything in spite of idiosyncrasies, bugs, etc.

          No, I haven't read enough about MS Linux (ptooey) but my guess is that it will somehow make Linux look bad, even if it's just that running in a VM will make it feel slower, things might not translate well, some things won't work, etc. It'll be interesting for sure.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:55PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:55PM (#840757) Journal

            People don't care about "Linux" or even "Android" on a Chromebook.

            But they will care if you tell them that "your phone / tablet apps in the Google Play store will work on your Chromebook". Now at this point in time, you would have to qualify that as not all Chromebooks offer Android support.

            Later you will be able to tell them that there is a "Linux store" with apps like Gimp, Inkscape, WxMaxima, LibreOffice, etc. Maybe at some point video / audio editors that are better than the similar Android offerings on the Play store. The state of Linux on Chromebooks is still definitely not for end users. You can enable it in Settings and try it out. You get a default Debian tightly security boxed by default. In a LXD container on a VM hosted on Google's crossvm. Google wrote crossvm because other virtualization solutions had many features they didn't need, and crossvm is written in a higher level language than C with a strong focus on security. They must ensure that Android and Linux apps simply cannot compromise the actual Chrome OS kernel. If you read up more on this, you can create additional containers, or even vms. You can install other distros. If you install some google packages, then it will get all of the plumbing for its GUI desktop.org compatible apps to have GUI integration with the Chrome OS desktop. I believe the future of Chrome OS is brighter than most people realize. But that is speculation and optimism on my part.

            The Google Play store also has Crossover Wine as an Android app.

            --
            I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
  • (Score: 4, Funny) by sshelton76 on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:23PM (5 children)

    by sshelton76 (7978) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:23PM (#840164)

    Isn't this just old news? I found an article from 1999 mentioning it
    https://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/1999040101110PR [linuxtoday.com]

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:40PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:40PM (#840180) Journal

      Wow. I wrote some jokes similar to that, but a bit later, in the Groklaw days. Some of that "press release" sounds almost like what I wrote later.

      This line:

      with the quality and enterprise-level service and support customers expect from Microsoft

      is very similar to a line I wrote but later:

      with the kind of quality, stability, robustness and security you've come to expect from the Microsoft name

      And that line I wrote, I have posted here on SN before as part of a joke about systemd.

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
    • (Score: 5, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:45PM (3 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:45PM (#840187) Journal

      Since on the topic of Jokes. Here is one I wrote in about that same timeframe. About 1999 or 2000. I posted it on Slashdot. It got some traction and was apparently copied around the net. Eventually making its way back to slashdot. When I mentioned I had wrote it on an earlier slashdot post, amusingly, trolls said it couldn't be true that I wrote it. Why not? Somebody had to write it!

      Here goes . . .

      Our father, who art in Redmond
      Microsoft be thy name.
      Thy monopoly come, thy will be done,
      Throughout the earth as it is in the US.
      Give us this day, our daily license activation key.
      And forgive us our bug reports,
      As we forgive our system crashes.
      Lead us not into competition, but deliver us from innovation.
      For thine is the Control and the Power and the Greed forever.
      Amen.

      Alternate ending:
      For thine is the Copyright and the Patent and the Trademark forever, and ever and ever and ever . . .

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:17PM (#840206)

        Congrats. That one had entered the internet humor canon.

      • (Score: 2) by sshelton76 on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:20PM (1 child)

        by sshelton76 (7978) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:20PM (#840209)

        Haha, love it!
        You've got talent. Wish I could even rhyme two words together.

        • (Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:42PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:42PM (#840216) Journal

          SCO's C.E.O. Darl McBride
          To the press he repeatedly lied
          "Linux stole our IP!"
          "GPL'ed it for FREE!"
          But no evidence could he provide.

          (and gobs more like that on Y! SCOX back in the mid 2000's)

          --
          I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
  • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:42PM (4 children)

    by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:42PM (#840182)

    Year of the LINUX desktop! Brought to you by your good friends at Microsoft!!

    It used to be a joke....sort of like Idiocracy.

    Not hearing a lot of laughter....

    --
    Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:44PM (3 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:44PM (#840218) Journal

      Microsoft has turned other internet meme jokes into reality.

      Remember when there were jokes (on Usenet I think) about emails that could infect your system -- even if the email were not read! OMG!!!

      Of course, everyone who understood that email was just plain text understood it as a prank.

      But Microsoft turned it into a reality.

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday May 07 2019, @11:52PM (2 children)

        by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @11:52PM (#840522)

        I had forgotten that one!

        There are days that I miss the pre-connected world.
        We thought it would be great giving everyone a voice.
        Then we discovered how stupid the bulk of humanity is.....and how accurate George Carlin's observations were.
        “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” George Carlin

        Oops, sorry, a bit sidetracked there!

        Peace out!

        --
        Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:58PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:58PM (#840762) Journal

          In the pre-Web days of Usenet it became quite apparent when AOL poisoned Usenet by creating an AOL gateway to Usenet noise-groups.

          The Web came later. By then it was obvious to anyone on Usenet how stupid the average unwashed masses were.

          --
          I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
          • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:25PM

            by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:25PM (#840777)

            And it was already too late to stop the tsunami of stupidity that would follow.....

            *grin*

            --
            Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
  • (Score: 3, Funny) by coolgopher on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:43PM (3 children)

    by coolgopher (1157) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:43PM (#840185)

    Yeah well, Han's got another sayin' for ya: "Get in there you big furry oaf - I don't care what you smell!"

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:11PM (2 children)

      by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:11PM (#840362) Journal

      IT'S A TRAP!

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 2) by istartedi on Tuesday May 07 2019, @08:31PM (1 child)

        by istartedi (123) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @08:31PM (#840407) Journal

        "I am your father".

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:59PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:59PM (#840764) Journal

          "I insist on a DNA test!" -- Luke Skywalker

          --
          I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:11PM (2 children)

    by ikanreed (3164) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:11PM (#840204) Journal

    It's briefly mentioned in the summary, but having spoken to the Docker people specifically on this question, this is 100% about supporting docker containers.

    Microsoft wins because since they don't release their kernel, you can't run windows docker images on linux, but you can run linux dockers on windows. Congrats, they're now the "no lose" platform for cloud deployments. My company is gonna stick with RHEL for our real OS layer, but I can see this being enough to sway some corporate shops.

    • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:46AM (1 child)

      by darkfeline (1030) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:46AM (#840595) Homepage

      Why would you deploy your Linux containers on Windows machines, which require expensive licenses, when you can deploy those same containers on free Linux machines?

      For example if you're running Windows rather than Linux on AWS, you have to pay extra for licenses.

      It sounds like lose-lose to me, but maybe Microsoft has a secret plan.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
      • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:09AM

        by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:09AM (#840618) Journal

        If you're stuck in corporate hell, you've already got a ton of expensive licenses for your cloud stack. AWS provisioning, docker enterprise, some bullshit corporate database.

        I mentioned my company had RHEL, they chose that because they could pay money for it and feel safer.

  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:30PM (14 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:30PM (#840211)

    Timeo fenestras et dona ferentes, in Virgil's Aeneid?

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:35PM (#840212)

      The serpents extended, embraced and extinguished him.

    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:14PM (11 children)

      by HiThere (866) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:14PM (#840233) Journal

      "Your are afraid of the Windows, and they come bearing gifts"? Sounds a bit too modern for Virgil.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:28PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:28PM (#840247)

        Brush up on your grammar.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:24AM

          by HiThere (866) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:24AM (#840627) Journal

          No, I think what I said was correct. He said "I fear", and I responded "You fear". I wasn't translating his phrase, I was responding to it.
          Wikipedia (as reported by Google) says:
          "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" is a Latin phrase from Aeneid (II, 49), written by Virgil between 29 and 19 BC. It has been paraphrased in English as the proverb "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts". Its literal meaning is "I fear the Danaans [Greeks], even those bearing gifts" or "even when they bear gifts".

          But a more literal translation would, I believe, be "and they bear gifts". The meaning here would be that he distrusted the Greeks sufficiently that he didn't trust any gifts they brought. A totally appropriate meaning to paraphrase for Microsoft.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by RamiK on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:24PM (8 children)

        by RamiK (1813) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @06:24PM (#840325)

        Pretty sure AC got it right:

        Timeo fenestras et dona ferentes

        Timeo is first person present active/passive indicative of timere/timeo (1st conjugation).
        Danaos is accusative masculine plural of Danaus (2nd declension).
        fenestras is accusative feminine plural of fenestra (1st declension).
        ferentes is accusative masculine/feminine plural of ferens (3rd declension, inflection of present participle fero).

        So it's "I fear windows, and those bearing gifts". Which contextually connects all the accusatives as "I fear windows, especially windows bearing gifts".

        But I'm quite rusty myself...

        --
        compiling...
        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:19AM (7 children)

          by HiThere (866) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:19AM (#840625) Journal

          It ought to be "... and they bear gifts". I don't remember my parts of Latin speech at all, but I'm rather sure that "those" isn't a good translation. He wasn't saying he was afraid of anyone bearing gifts, but rather that he didn't trust the Greeks sufficiently that he didn't trust the gifts they bore.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Wednesday May 08 2019, @09:33AM (6 children)

            by RamiK (1813) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @09:33AM (#840704)

            I admit remembering very little Latin and that there are a lot of idiomatic moods, modes and sentence structures that I just don't remember and some of which are only in spoken or medieval times so I might be too restrictive / flat out wrong. But, on the English side of things, I can already tell you "I fear windows and they bear gifts" can only be understood as "I fear windows. And they bear gifts." which (more or less) works back to:

            fenestras timeo et dona ferunt

            --
            compiling...
            • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday May 08 2019, @03:58PM (5 children)

              by HiThere (866) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @03:58PM (#840823) Journal

              I think we speak different dialects of English. To me "I fear [the] Greeks, and they bear gifts." is quite understandable, and it implies that I fear the gifts that they bear because I fear them,

              --
              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
              • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Wednesday May 08 2019, @07:52PM (4 children)

                by RamiK (1813) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @07:52PM (#840959)

                I fear Chinese and they make appliances

                Does that implies I fear Chinese appliances?

                --
                compiling...
                • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday May 09 2019, @04:10AM (3 children)

                  by HiThere (866) on Thursday May 09 2019, @04:10AM (#841194) Journal

                  Yes. If your statement is true, then I doubt you buy Huawei routers.

                  --
                  Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                  • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Thursday May 09 2019, @12:04PM (2 children)

                    by RamiK (1813) on Thursday May 09 2019, @12:04PM (#841297)

                    It was an example. But I fear my dentist and still eat that lollipop... That counts, right? :B

                    --
                    compiling...
                    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday May 09 2019, @04:38PM (1 child)

                      by HiThere (866) on Thursday May 09 2019, @04:38PM (#841390) Journal

                      And the Trojans took the wooden horse into the city. What you're saying is that you desire the lollipop more, at the present time, than you fear your dentist, who is six months off. You're doing a balancing act.

                      --
                      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                      • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Thursday May 09 2019, @06:19PM

                        by RamiK (1813) on Thursday May 09 2019, @06:19PM (#841465)

                        No no... I both fear and love my dentist. It's a complicated relationship. With whips, ropes and lollipops...

                        --
                        compiling...
    • (Score: 2) by Rich on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:32AM

      by Rich (945) on Wednesday May 08 2019, @02:32AM (#840590) Journal

      MICROSOFTES EVNT DOMVS

  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:33PM (3 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday May 07 2019, @07:33PM (#840376) Journal

    Is Microsoft still around? Hearing about them now feels like what it was like to hear people mention LotusNotes in the 90's.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:00PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:00PM (#840465)

      You scoff, but after the next election Satya Nadella is going to be President of the USA.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:14PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:14PM (#840474)

        Wrong. That position is already reserved for Mark Zuckerberg.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:49AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08 2019, @04:49AM (#840637)

          It's Hillary's turn first.

(1)