Anti-Vaxxers Defeated: NY Bans Exemptions as Doctors Vote to Step up Fight:
Anti-vaccine advocates received a blow in New York Thursday as state lawmakers banned non-medical exemptions based on religious beliefs—and there may be more blows coming.
Also on Thursday, the American Medical Association adopted a new policy to step up its fight against such non-medical exemptions. The AMA, the country's largest physicians' group and one of the largest spenders on lobbying, has always strongly support pediatric vaccination and opposed non-medical exemptions. But under the new policy changes, the association will now "actively advocate" for states to eliminate any laws that allow for non-medical exemptions.
"As evident from the measles outbreaks currently impacting communities in several states, when individuals are not immunized as a matter of personal preference or misinformation, they put themselves and others at risk of disease," AMA Board Member E. Scott Ferguson, M.D. said in a statement. "The AMA strongly supports efforts to eliminate non-medical exemptions from immunization, and we will continue to actively urge policymakers to do so."
The religious exemption ban in New York comes at a critical time. The state is at the forefront of a nationwide resurgence of measles, with active outbreaks that have sickened hundreds and splintered into other states.
"This administration has taken aggressive action to contain the measles outbreak, but given its scale, additional steps are needed to end this public health crisis," New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said in a statement after signing the ban on religious exemptions. "While I understand and respect freedom of religion, our first job is to protect the public health, and by signing this measure into law, we will help prevent further transmissions and stop this outbreak right in its tracks."
Sudden outbreak of common sense?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @01:24AM
Oy vey!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by krishnoid on Monday June 17 2019, @01:28AM
Even if the religious holdouts had very powerful lobbying, New York City is densely populated enough that the mayor is probably visualizing staring down the barrel [sic] of an epidemic with most of the population surrounding him in those tight building-flanked canyons.
If the area was any more spread out, they could probably live and let die, but NYC is one of those few places in the world where you might be able to accurately predict the viral spread in space and time based on neighborhood and business demographics, traffic patterns and subway routes.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @01:41AM (17 children)
Religious exemptions from the law are just another 1st Amendment violation. And in this case, very dangerous.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @02:08AM (3 children)
Most states (that I am familiar with, at least) called them philosophical exemptions, no religion required.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Monday June 17 2019, @02:24AM (2 children)
Just try explaining that on Fox News and watch viewers scratch their heads as they never even considered the possibility or understand the concept of "no religion".
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @03:15AM
Imagine there's no heaven
No religion too
(Score: 2, Touché) by c0lo on Monday June 17 2019, @03:36AM
You say it like it's a bad thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Monday June 17 2019, @02:42AM (12 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday June 17 2019, @03:40AM (1 child)
Inquiring minds want to know: if that belief is unconsciously held, is it still a conscience belief?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Monday June 17 2019, @08:20PM
I'd say that if you can articulate it enough to cite that belief as a reason to opt out of vaccination, then it is a conscious belief. If you can't, then you get the vaccination, but feel uneasy about it.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Mykl on Monday June 17 2019, @03:53AM (9 children)
Just because you have a genuine and deeply held belief, doesn't mean that we have to kowtow to it. What about the genuine and deeply held beliefs of the whites in the south that segregation should remain in place? We decided that the benefits of desegregation far outweigh the 'genuine and deeply held beliefs' of the segregationists, so that is what we did. I believe vaccination is no different.
The Australian experiment is slightly different. Instead of banning religious exemption, they are including requirements to access certain services. Want your kids to go to a public or private school (vs homeschool)? Need to be vaccinated. Want to claim government benefits for your kids? They need to be vaccinated. I would imagine that our universal access to the public health system will be next.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Monday June 17 2019, @11:17AM (6 children)
Absolutely.
Person A's right to behavior X should come to a screeching halt when that behavior endangers or harms person B without their informed consent. Their beliefs are immaterial in such a case.
That should be the end of non-medical exemptions, right there.
--
Hyphenated.
Non-hyphenated.
Dashed peculiar, if you ask me.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @12:04PM (2 children)
You eat the food they could eat instead. You drink water they could drink. You breathe, exhaling dangerous greenhouse gas CO2. You fart even more dangerous greenhouse gas methane. You shit opportunistically pathogenic bacteria. Etc. etc. etc.
Before you support more and more inventive redefinitions of "harm", do consider that every right and freedom you so want to remove from your neighbor, YOU will lose as well.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @01:24PM
Indeed, we live in a society, everything we do can affect one another. That is why we have a government of the people to collectively make decisions and craft laws that protect our rights on our behalf. We live in a world full of societies of people, and many of their governments meet to come to agreements on problems that affect us all. It's not a perfect system. Governments can become corrupted by grifting billionaires that only care about enriching themselves and care nothing for the people, its government, or its laws. If the people are lucky, they can vote out the bad actors. If not, they may need to take more violent and decisive action.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday June 20 2019, @03:18PM
I have no desire to a right to expose my neighbor to diseases that are both dangerous and preventable. I do not consider this a loss, but a gain. Both ways.
That's the thing about liberty. It doesn't extend to being the first to proactively screw someone else up when it can reasonably be avoided.
So no, this is not a consideration at all.
Nice try though. :)
--
Ignorance is weakness.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @05:55PM (1 child)
you stupid authoritarian bitch.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Thursday June 20 2019, @03:14PM
I'm authoritarian? Because I don't want you to impose your diseases on others without their consent?
You no more should have the freedom to walk around carrying/spreading dangerous diseases in range of other persons, than you should have the freedom to fire guns randomly through the walls of your domicile in range of other persons.
You are the one seeking authority you should not have. Not me.
--
My sense of humor is my primary defense against the
creeping tide of idiocy taking over my country
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @03:45PM
Let's talk about your religious support of vaccines that can endanger or harm others without their informed consent.
Billions have been paid out by vaccine court, and not for no reason.
My body. My choice.
(Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Monday June 17 2019, @08:24PM (1 child)
This sounds like the California law, where vaccine requirements are tied to school attendance. I normally assume other states are the same, but the New York story doesn't mention schools.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:45AM
This is the school requirement: https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-signs-legislation-removing-non-medical-exemptions-school-vaccination [ny.gov]
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @02:18AM (31 children)
Deaths in this resurgence/outbreak? 0.
In 2017, 38,739 people received an HIV diagnosis in the US. The annual number of new HIV diagnoses remained stable between 2012 and 2016. In 2016, there were 15,807 deaths among people with diagnosed HIV in the United States. These deaths may be due to any cause. That's 41%, and they're not all from old age.
In 2016, a total of 2,967 cases of acute hepatitis C were reported to CDC from 42 states. In 2016, 18,153 U.S. death certificates had HCV recorded as an underlying or contributing cause of death (7). However, this is a conservative estimate. Evidence derived from a cohort of patients with known HCV infection who received care at four large health care organizations in the United States found that only 19% of decedents had HCV infection listed on their death certificates. More than 70% of these decedents had evidence of moderate to severe underlying liver disease.
In 2016, the most recent data available, 528 deaths in the United States were attributed to TB.
It goes on - but we are all wound up about 0 deaths and a few hundred reported cases of measles.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @02:47AM (24 children)
That's an apples to oranges comparison.
There is a known to be safe and effective vaccine for Measles. There is no vaccine for Hep C [mayoclinic.org] and, for a variety of reasons [cdc.gov] (perhaps we need to reevaluate this too), the TB vaccine is not widely used in the US, and there is no HIV vaccine either.
Instead, why don't we compare measles cases to smallpox and rubella.
Smallpox cases in the US [cdc.gov]: 0 since 1952. Cause: widespread vaccination
Rubella cases in the US [cdc.gov]: 0 since 2004. Cause: widespread vaccination.
Measles cases in the US [cdc.gov]: 1,022. Cause: dwindling herd immunity due to reduced vaccination levels.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: -1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Monday June 17 2019, @03:16AM (10 children)
HIV -- otherwise known as AIDS -- is a disaster. And it really did a number on New York. There's a pill for HIV. For not getting HIV. And, for not passing it on. And by the way, I talked to Gilead Sciences. Who make that one. And I made a magnificent deal. So 200,000 people can get that pill FOR FREE. ZERO DOLLARS!! foxbusiness.com/healthcare/trump-strikes-big-hiv-drug-deal-to-knockout-virus [foxbusiness.com]
What has Andrew Cuomo done for the health of the people of New York? I'll tell you what. He put the blue, and gold tiles in the Queens Midtown Tunnel. Instead of the plain white tiles they wanted to put in. Thank you, Andrew!!
(Score: -1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Monday June 17 2019, @03:24AM (3 children)
(cont) Those Colored tiles cost $20 million or even $30 million. Lot of money because White wasn't good enough for Andrew.
Hepatitis C, there's no vaccine, that's so true. But, there are pills that cure it. 95% of the time, they cure it. It's not a sure thing but it's pretty good, right? And those pills cost about $100,000. Can you work out how many times that goes into $30 million? I'll work it out for you, it's 300 times. 300 people. And 95% would be cured, that's 285 people. Andrew doesn't care about health. He's just another corrupt Dem politician!!!!
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Monday June 17 2019, @03:57AM (2 children)
You should focus on your funny parodies of DT. These sound too much like something he'd actually post, and doesn't contain any of the satire/humor I look for in your earlier posts.
In other words, I like your old stuff better than your new stuff.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @04:15PM
not to mention (cont) is not what the real con don uses, just dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @09:14PM
Make realDonaldTrump Great Again?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday June 17 2019, @04:22AM (5 children)
That is one post where you have stepped over the boarder into outright lying.
There is no "pill" to avoid or suppress HIV, unless you're talking about cyanide, or something similar. HIV is a virus that is wildly variable, and medicines that work on one variety are useless against some other. And it mutates so rapidly that if you have it, you probably have thousands of varieties, so a drug cocktail is the most common approach. Even then, the effect usually wears of as new varieties appear that can sidestep ALL of the drugs.
OTOH, there do seem to be approaches that suppress active forms. So with proper treatment continued over the years, and adjusted on an as needed basis, you'll probably die of something else first.
I may be overstating my case, as it's been years since I looked into the matter, but that's the way the situation was a few years ago, and I doubt that it's changed. Possibly the suppressor drugs have gotten more effective, but I'm rather sure I would have heard if there were an actual cure.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2, Informative) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @04:58AM (4 children)
Just to clarify, it was unclear what trolling boy was talking about (it often is), but my point was int reply to JoeMerchant's [soylentnews.org] comparison of HIV *infection* (not treatment or cure) with measles infections.
As I pointed out, there is no *vaccine* against HIV. There are certainly treatments that can keep the virus at bay. Apparently, there are also treatments that have (in two cases) put patients into "sustained remission" [statnews.com].
I'm not an AIDS researcher or an epidemiologist, just a somewhat informed layperson, so YMMV.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday June 17 2019, @04:08PM (3 children)
Yeah, but two cases isn't very remarkable. There were at least two cases that went into remission without any treatment at all. (Of course, that was out of a much larger sample size, but...)
I'm also a bit skeptical about how long those "sustained remission" cases will remain so. IIUC what they are saying is not that they've cleared the virus, but rather that it's currently hiding. And in any case that's no "just a pill", so he's a fucking liar.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @04:42PM (2 children)
I was clarifying *my* statement, [soylentnews.org] which was that no *vaccine* for HIV exists.
As to the "sustained remission" cases, those are extreme outliers, and those folks have *not* been cured (cf. remission [wikipedia.org]).
I do know that there is a cocktail of drugs referred to as Anti-Retroviral Treatment (ART) [nih.gov]:
Why loose your venom on me? I didn't defend the post to which you replied.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday June 17 2019, @07:35PM (1 child)
It wasn't directed at you. Sorry if you read it that way. (Did I post under the wrong parent?)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @07:42PM
No worries. It's all good.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Username on Monday June 17 2019, @07:53AM (4 children)
You're still making his point. Smallpox was deadly, so everyone got vaccinated against it. Measles and chickenpox, isnt deadly just annoying, so people decided no to vaccinate.
Let us continue down this slope. Having glasses is annoying. Should we jail parents who do not give their child contacts or corrective surgery? Children don't run around with cleft lips and exposed brains anymore. So why do they have to run around with glasses?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @09:34AM (3 children)
Measles and chicken pox aren't deadly *to most people*. However, they are quite deadly to some, and can cause serious complications in others.
As history tells us [cdc.gov]:
That improved over time, likely due to *isolating those with measles* while they were contagious. As such, by the 1950s,
I don't know about you, but 500 *deaths* plus nearly 50,000 hospitalizations and 1,000 with encephalitis (which can cause serious and permanent brain injury) [encephalitis.info] seems pretty dangerous to me.
Especially since
Since vaccination against measles began, it has prevented the deaths of tens of thousands, prevented brain injuries to double that number, and prevented the hospitalization of even more people, by a factor of 100, I'd say that has a great deal of value.
The Measles vaccine has prevented the death and suffering of millions of people. The loss off herd immunity risks bringing all that back.
Vaccinations stop *preventable* death and suffering. And it's not just those whose parents choose not to vaccinate their children. The vaccine isn't perfect, and some people remain vulnerable. Others, who have compromised immune systems or other health issues cannot be vaccinated. What's more, Measles is *highly* contagious.
Let's make it personal to you. Let's say that some maniac was running around your town beating the crap out of, say, 1 in every 40 people.
Most of those people were not badly hurt, but needed a week or so to recuperate before returning to their jobs, school and lives.
However, a small percentage of the beaten were hit in the head with a tire iron, causing permanent brain damage. And another group were so badly injured that they died.
Now let's say we *knew* that it was crazy Herb Jones who lives over on Maple Street who was doing all those beatings. What do you do?
The mayor calls a town meeting to discuss what's been going on, and ask everyone what he should do about it.
Would you take the same attitude as with measles? "Meh. It's not so bad. Herb doesn't really hurt anyone too badly. It's too much trouble. let's ignore it."
Measles is preventable, highly contagious, and can cause permanent injury and even death.
How is this even a discussion?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @04:23PM (2 children)
Well, I gotta say I'm not a fan of forcing people to have injections. I am all for vaccinations, but mandated injections feels like a very creepy step towards authoritarianism. I guess as long as they allow people to get their own vaccinations and not use a government mandated doctor it isn't quite as bad.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @05:04PM
The new law doesn't *force* people to vaccinate their kids, all it does is get rid of so-called "religious exemptions."
And let me clarify a bit more. It has been the law in New York for at least 45 years (it was the law when I started school) that parents *must* provide either proof of vaccination or an accepted exemption when enrolling their child in school. If they do not, the child may not attend.
This isn't just elementary school either. It's the law for all New York schools. In fact, I almost didn't get to start college on time, as my vaccination certificate had been lost by my high school and I had to go back to my elementary school to get a copy for the college.
The change in the law just narrows the scope of the exemptions that are acceptable. No one is forcibly injecting anyone. The change is that only *medical* exemptions (for people who, for various reasons cannot be vaccinated) will be accepted when enrolling children in school.
This isn't new or especially controversial. And New York isn't the first state to invalidate religious exemptions either.
I'm sorry if the reality isn't the horrifying nightmare of evil, authoritarians in New York. forcing children to be injected at gunpoint, with god knows what, by nefarious "government" doctors that you thought it was.
Perhaps we can find some other nightmarish scenario for you to worry about instead?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:22PM
I'm not a fan of *forcing* people to shit in a bowl filled with water. Freedom n that.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @12:06PM (7 children)
Gotta nip this thing in the bud, before it gets outta hand!
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @12:32PM (6 children)
There. FTFM.
Yep. Before people start dying or getting brain damage. [soylentnews.org]
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @03:46PM (5 children)
This is political posturing, grandstanding for particular crowds, and shaping public behavior.
What this is NOT is addressing a real crisis with real potential for impactful positive outcome. It's yelling BOO! there's a bogeyman out there and I'm going to protect you - pay no attention to the literally thousands of bigger bogeymen that can be addressed more effectively and efficiently, this one allows me to strike a certain political posture that I think will resonate with my electorate and help me in the future.
Politicians pretending to be out in front of a problem, ignoring the much bigger problems that got out in front of them.
Democracy: We get the leadership we deserve.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @05:18PM (4 children)
There's nothing political about the truth.
Measles is highly contagious and can cause brain inflammation (potentially with permanent brain damage) and death.
Without the measles vaccine, thousands would die from it every year, and even more would end up with brain inflammation and other serious issues. How do I know this? Because that's exactly what happened before there was a measles vaccine.
Measles is preventable and should be in the dustbin of history like Smallpox. In fact, widespread vaccination *ended* measles in the United States in 2000. Now, thanks to a bunch of ill-informed, reckless people, measles is back. That it hasn't killed or maimed anyone yet is just dumb luck.
This is a public health issue that, unless dealt with, could cause needless suffering and death.
It's you who is doing the political posturing. And for what? So a bunch of folks that worship an imaginary sky daddy can be frightened into putting their kids and many others at risk? Shame on you!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @06:08PM (1 child)
There's no truth worth hearing from a parrot.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @06:42PM
While you have your fingers in your ears, you might want to cover your eyes too.
Then no one will be able to see you either.
Have fun!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:07PM (1 child)
stfu, you stupid fucking cunt.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:20PM
How sweet. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
And no. I won't STFU. Kisses, baby!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @02:51AM
Put this in balance with impurifying all our precious bodily fluids, without the choice of the individual, and I can understand the outrage.
Denying women your life essence is the first step, though. Use it for some time before getting to prevail, God willing, in keeping the purity and essence of our natural fluids by the use of those 1400 megatons worth.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Monday June 17 2019, @03:56AM (4 children)
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Seriously. For once, that statement is 100% spot on, instead of being a caricature of hysterically afraid helicopter parents. Many vaccinations are ineffective on the very young. A newborn will not develop lasting immunity. Also, can't vaccinate against everything all at once. Vaccinations should be spread out over a period of time. Otherwise they could be less effective. The best way to protect an infant from measles and other diseases is to make sure everyone around the baby is vaccinated.
And, you've made a common mistake, that of using body counts to measure harm. By that measure, a bus crash could be a worse disaster than a catastrophic hurricane. Costs a great deal to care for a sick child. Each one of these diseases lasts at least a week, and some can last a lot longer. Like, 10 weeks for whooping cough. Someone, usually a parent, should to stay close almost the entire time, and cut back on other work.
Any parent who's an anti-vaxxer should be given the choice of geting their kids vaccinated, or being exiled to a leper colony. The choice they should not have is to let their kids be transmitters of preventable diseases, mingling with the rest of us. If you're okay with disease carriers getting close to your infant children, why not also let sex offenders near?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday June 17 2019, @04:27AM
IIUC, lepers (i.e. Hansen's disease) can be treated sufficiently that they are (essentially) totally not-communicable. https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/guide/leprosy-symptoms-treatments-history#2-6 [webmd.com]
For that matter, even without treatment leprosy isn't very contagious. It's just that people with rotting body parts are unpleasant and scary to be around.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @11:55AM (2 children)
As I recall, for measles, mumps and chicken pox, I was dumped at my grandparent's house while they went out to work (but granny would get home in the early afternoon and was off on Wednesdays, while my parents wouldn't get there until ~4:30) I survived, as did all of my classmates, their siblings, and everyone else within at least 3 degrees of separation - no lasting effects, though the mumps did run a long time.
"Helicopter nursing" now, are we? When needed, sure. When every kid in town gets the spots and none of them need more than some bedrest to get over it...?
Closest "preventable deaths" to my 1970s childhood were stories of polio and tetanus victims at least a generation before. Polio and tetanus are definitely worth the vaccination effort.
On the non-deadly side, my personal experience (one degree of separation, and less) of varicella infection among the immunized makes me think that the efficacy data is B.S. The annual influenza vaccine has published statistics that make it seem like a good idea, but again anecdotal observations make it look like more miss than hit.
At some point, people should clearly have a choice to opt out of science experiments which put their bodies at risk. As a society, we have a tendency to not draw those kinds of lines - so some people ignore all the science and take an extreme position where they really do put themselves at significantly elevated risks.
The science side of this debate doth protest too much, me thinks. Something to hide, they have. Would that they would be more forthright and trustworthy, they might better plea their case and serve their cause.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @07:58PM (1 child)
Are you familiar with the term Anecdotal Evidence?
Here, I'll link you to the definition just in case:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal%20evidence [merriam-webster.com]
Your personal experience does not invalidate the fact that people do die from the measles, they do get complications that have life long effects. Odds of encephalitis from measles is approximately 1 in 1000. Death, 1-2 in 1000. Odds of permanent harm from the measles vaccine? 0 in 1000
You have worse odds of being killed by a tornado (1 in 60,000), yet we teach tornado safety in schools and there is no dispute as to the harm they can do. So why do you argue against enforcing public safety from a more likely threat?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:27PM
But wait, I was getting into his life story. What happened next after you got measles and SURVIVED?! Hopefully there is a book I can purchase or better yet a series of movies.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SomeGuy on Monday June 17 2019, @02:19AM (15 children)
Just something to keep in mind. Today they are forcing people to take medicine to prevent a serious contagious illness, in the name of public safety. Tomorrow it may be happy-fun-zombie-conformance medicine, also in the name of public safety. It's a slippery slope.
Of course, these idiot's religions can rot in their own imaginary supernatural hell. NY can tell Anti-Vaxxers where to stick it! :P
While it doesn't seem quite right that government should have to force people to do this, the entire idea of retards putting eveyone around them in serious risk just because they think some imaginary sky turd demands it, is outrageous.
(Score: 3, Funny) by PartTimeZombie on Monday June 17 2019, @02:40AM (4 children)
No it's not. That will never happen.
(Score: 1, Troll) by c0lo on Monday June 17 2019, @02:59AM (3 children)
And... how can you be so sure? They started long ago with fluoridation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday June 18 2019, @12:40AM (2 children)
Since when is fluoridation happy-fun-zombie-conformance medicine?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday June 18 2019, @12:50AM (1 child)
Ever since Dr Strangelove thought us that fluoridation is a conspiracy too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday June 18 2019, @01:35AM
Oh, of course, sorry.
You're talking about the Soviet plot using fluoridation of the American water supplies to pollute the precious bodily fluids of Americans.
Yes, I too am scared of commies.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday June 17 2019, @02:55AM
Hmm, "happy-fun-zombie-conformance" you say?
Then, it looks more like a rabbit hole. But, yes, I'll grant you a point: a slippery rabbit hole (grand trollish grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @05:35AM
Good news! This case isn't setting any precedents. The precedent was set back in 1905, in a Supreme Court decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @11:59AM (3 children)
Mandatory child restraint car seats are this, IMO. Sure, they're better than adult seat-belts, but what are we really accomplishing with the law? People who comply with heavy physical restraints, 100% trained from a young age, oh, and a 0.01% reduction in early childhood deaths.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday June 17 2019, @04:43PM (2 children)
Saving lives? Preventing serious injuries??
Let's investigate that 0.01% number, shall we? Here's a CDC page on child deaths and injuries. [cdc.gov] According to the report on that page, about 44% of child deaths (age less than 19 years) are due to unintentional injuries. Out of that injury rate, motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death for kids above the age of 1. (For kids less than 1, suffocation is the leading cause of accidental death.)
Over 50% of childhood injury-related deaths ages 5-9 are motor vehicle related. 31% for ages 1-4 and 14% for kids less than 1 year old (suffocation is about 2/3 of accidental deaths for kids less than age 1, so it skews the other cause stats). Meanwhile, for every death in an auto accident, there are roughly 100 times as many serious injuries for kids. According to estimates I've found in various sources, death rates for kids properly secured in child car seats seem to be lowered by around 75% for children under age 4, and above 50% for children up to age 8. (Note that a full 43% of children [npr.org] who die in car crashes each year were not in a car seat or were improperly restrained in a car seat.)
So, let's put these numbers together. 44% of child deaths are due to unintentional injuries, and 50% of those deaths ages 5-9 are motor vehicle related, meaning roughly 20-25% of all deaths of kids in that age. If car seats/boosters for kids in the 4-8 range prevent 50% of deaths for that age group, I'm pretty sure that's a LOT more than 0.01%. For younger kids, the percentage and actual number of deaths from car accidents is lower, but if car seats are ~75% more effective in preventing death than no restraint in that age group, again, we're talking about a couple orders of magnitude greater than 0.01%.
I know your statement was probably intended as hyperbole, but car accidents cause a huge number of deaths each year. Child restraints are significant contributor to saving lives among young kids.
And by the way, I agree with you that adult seat belt laws are pretty stupid. If you want to die, you should be free to choose not to wear a seatbelt in your own car. I agree. Kids are a different matter. The state has a responsibility to step in and prevent children from harm from stupid parents, like those who would refuse to put their kid in a carseat because they nonsensically believe it would only reduce death rates by 0.01%...
(Score: 3, Funny) by Osamabobama on Monday June 17 2019, @08:45PM (1 child)
I'm sure the real reason is to reduce the government spending on disabled and incapacitated children. Probably also to ensure a larger pool of potential soldiers for the next great war. Bottom line, it's about the government's own interests.
\s
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:29PM
I thought it was about being a rugged individual pulling himself up by the ballsacks.
(Score: 4, Informative) by NotSanguine on Monday June 17 2019, @05:50PM (3 children)
Who is being forced to take medicine?
No one. There aren't shadowy men in black coming to people's houses, holding children down, and injecting them.
The law in New York requires that *in order to attend school* parent's must either show proof of vaccinations or a valid exemption.
This has been the law for more than 45 years, and no one has *ever* been vaccinated against their will.
The change in the law that's the subject of TFA invalidates so-called "religious exemptions."
That doesn't mean anyone is forced to vaccinate, it means that if you want your child to attend school with tens, hundreds or even thousands of other students, teachers and staff, they must be vaccinated or have a valid *medical* exemption.
If parents don't want to vaccinate their children, they do not have to do so. But they'll likely need to home-school their kids unless their is a valid *medical* (of which there are a bunch) reason not to vaccinate.
Measles is highly contagious and can cause serious complications and even death. Even so, no one is being *forced* to do anything.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:33PM
That's what they want you to believe. What about the things they won't tell you? Hm? The homosexual agenda, piercings, the End Times. That's why I watch Fox News.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:12PM (1 child)
yeah, and i'm sure new york has true home school freedom. those nazi fucks probably make the parents register and get inspected and shit. fuck new york.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:26PM
Actually, I had no idea what the requirements are for home schooling in NY. So I checked it out, and here they are:
https://www.homeschoolfacts.com/state-laws/new-york-homeschool-state-laws.html [homeschoolfacts.com]
Oh, and you're welcome.
I imagine that many New Yorkers would welcome your tiny penis, as most folks are very nice. Good luck with that.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @02:21AM (12 children)
It just warms my heart when innumerate, corrupt, bride by pharma corp, and unaccountable bureaucrats get to decide to inject me and my children with whatever they want.
Hint: go look at vaccination rates at the schools where those ceos send their kids
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @02:31AM (4 children)
Don't like it? Stay out of New York. We don't want your kind here.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Alfred on Monday June 17 2019, @02:25PM (3 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @05:55PM (2 children)
Already here and happy to be so.
And nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here. The change in the law just invalidates so-called "religious exemptions."
This means that (as the law has been for half a century) if you want your child to attend school, they must either be vaccinated or have a valid exemption. Only *medical* exemptions are allowed now.
No one is forcing anyone to vaccinate their kids, but if they're not vaccinated (or can't be), they will not be allowed to put other children at risk.
(Score: 2) by Alfred on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:43PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @03:08AM
Now hold on there a second, sport.
Firstly, there is no religious discrimination going on at all. In fact, removing religious exemptions actually gets *rid* of religious discrimination. How so? Because if you can get an exemption *because* of your religious beliefs, that means that many people who are not religious are being singled out for discrimination by their lack of belief.
As such, the change in the law gets rid of religious discrimination, not the other way around. Because now, those who got *preferential* treatment via a religious exemption (a clear violation of the First Amendment) are treated the same as anyone else.
What's more, New York is not the first state to do this. California, Mississippi, and West Virginia [insider.com] already required *medical* exemptions.
Further, even without a religious exemption, no one is "forced" to vaccinate their kids. Those kids just aren't allowed to put *other people's kids* at risk.
No liberty is lost here. Parents may still vaccinate or not vaccinate as they choose. The only difference is that people who *don't* worship imaginary sky daddies no longer suffer the discrimination you claim to deplore.
Or are you arguing that those with religious beliefs should receive preferential treatment?
If you feel that's true, then someone who honestly believes that jihad is god's will, shouldn't be arrested or imprisoned for carrying out their sincerely held religious beliefs, right?
(Score: 4, Touché) by PartTimeZombie on Monday June 17 2019, @02:37AM
Why wouldn't you post a link detailing the vaccination rates at those schools?
Then we would know what you were implying.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by MostCynical on Monday June 17 2019, @03:19AM (5 children)
Weirdly, CEOs seem to marry airheads, then work 100-hour weeks, making almost none of the deisions about their children.
So there are pockets of high net worth with very low vaccination rates.
Pretty bimbo also undereduacated, but looks good on arm at company events.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Username on Monday June 17 2019, @08:03AM (4 children)
My understanding of the "married to the CEO life" women are so attracted to, is that they don't have to do anything but go on vacation. Their nannys and maids take care of the children. And since nannys take care of the ceo's children that makes them also the ceos wives, and he gets to have sex with them as well. So we now have multiple people who aren't vaccinated their children.
Personally, I think it is because the ultrarich live in their own little gated world that is free from disease, and if you live in a bubble you cannot contact disease. Vaccines are for the heard of sheep they control.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 17 2019, @12:03PM (1 child)
There's also the factor that in the rare circumstance that anybody does get sick, they can afford the finest care to recover. IMO this is a big factor in western anti-vax thinking: vaccines are economical disease control, for poor countries who need to take the up-front hit from side effects because getting the disease is just too costly for them to deal with.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:39PM
Getting sick gives them something to do. It's a lifestyle choice... boredom, excess, depression, hooray... an illness. Now I have a purpose in life! (optional: donate $100m to USC to build a shiny with your name on it). Repeat.
(Score: 3, Funny) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday June 18 2019, @01:38AM (1 child)
Of course I've heard of sheep. Heard of chickens?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:27PM
So, what's a henway?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @02:30AM
I'm very happy to see that the legislature and the Governor took the appropriate steps to head off this idiocy.
Hitting these morons with a clue stick didn't work, so we did what we had to do.
Now, if the state senate can get its act together to pass cannabis legalization [amny.com] before they adjourn for the year (on 19 June), along with the excellent housing reforms [curbed.com] signed into law last week, I'll count it as a successful legislative session.
(Score: 0, Redundant) by realDonaldTrump on Monday June 17 2019, @02:54AM (2 children)
It's always a Beth Mole story. And it's always "submitted" or Approved by Cheif Editor Marty B. Or, by his Sock Puppet BytraM. Which if you spell it backwards, it's Marty B. Same person( allegedly), 2 different accounts. Just to keep us confused. And "they" wanted to make sure we saw this one -- 2 Subs with the exact same article. From this very biased "reporter." Plenty of other articles about the story. Fox News and many more. But it's always Beth Mole. And it's always Arts Technicha. foxnews.com/health/new-york-ends-religious-exemption-vaccine-mandates [foxnews.com]
O.K., we saw it. And, very sad what's happening in the "great" State of New York. They have, unfortunately, a Dem Legislature. And a Dem Governor -- Mario Cuomo's (RIP!!) boy. I wasn't a fan of Mario. And, I'm not a fan of Andrew. Very unpopular guy, he signed one of the worst Abortion laws in the Country. Where the Doctor can "abort" even after the Baby is born. It's known as Infanticide. Also known as, Baby Killing. Horrible thing, it gives the parents & Doctor much too much power. Baby comes out, it has beautiful Blue Eyes. But the parents wanted brown. So that Baby gets strangled. And thrown in the trash can. So sorry, wrong color, throw that one away.
But if you've been around a few days. Then the parents loose all power. And the Doctor looses all power. It's Dem politicians (Health Dept.) that get to decide if you live. Or, if you die. And I'll tell you the type of decisions the Dems make for us in New York. For the Tax payers and the citizens of New York. Queens Midtown Tunnel was damaged by Hurricane Sandy. And they did the repairs to that one. But the repairs ended up costing an extra $20 million, or even $30 million. Because Andrew Cuomo -- same guy -- said, "oh, let's put in blue & gold Stripes, because it's the State Colors." nypost.com/2018/07/22/cuomo-had-the-mta-waste-30m-on-tunnel-vanity-project [nypost.com]
Big waste of money to make the underground look beautiful. It could have gone so far toward the medical. Leave it in people's pockets and let them go to the Doctor with that. Or it could have gone to our Border Wall. To the painting of our Border Wall with Anti Climb Paint. Something that not only looks magnificent. But has a very useful Function to it -- keeping people from climbing.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 17 2019, @06:49AM
Yyyyyeah, you don't get to complain about sockpuppetting, asshole. You're a worthless space-wasting blight on this forum and we'd be better off without you and your alts, plural. Fuck off and go bother some other site.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:16PM
Yes, Beth Mole is a big pharma whore. Someone should run her over while she's walking through the parking garage. Whoopsie!
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @03:22AM (7 children)
Could someone explain how vaccinne's only work if everyone gets them?
(Score: 4, Informative) by khallow on Monday June 17 2019, @03:54AM
Work better. Measles spreads in the first place because in a mostly uninfected, vulnerable population it can infect more than one person on average. That means at low incidents of measles in a unvaccinated population, it can spread exponentially. Near universal measles vaccination means that even with an imperfect vaccine, it infects less than one additional person on average, meaning that measles breakouts die out quickly.
And the key point here is that we gain this sufficient immunity to measles without having to catch measles (forgoing the week or more of being sick and the many bigger risks of measles than of its vaccines).
(Score: 5, Informative) by FatPhil on Monday June 17 2019, @07:41AM
If 19 of those are immune, then only one new person gets the disease.
If more than 19 are immune, each infected person infects less than one other person, and the disease dies out.
If fewer than 19 are immune, each infected person infects more than one other person, and the disease grows.
You may conclude that the level of vaccination neccessary to provide herd immunity is closely related to how infectious the disease is (and how long it can go undetected). The '20' and '95%' in the above example would be for highly infectious diseases.
The above is obviously a simplification, the actual differential equations in the model are a little bit more complicated, as there are different reasons why one might be immune, not just through vaccination. (Natural immunity, or already had the disease, for example.)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 4, Informative) by fennec on Monday June 17 2019, @08:29AM (4 children)
You're getting vaccinated to protect the ones that can't, too young, have a pathology or the vaccine didn't work.
(Score: 2) by Alfred on Monday June 17 2019, @02:48PM (3 children)
That said, any parent who has any reason or no reason at all is entitle to the liberty to not vaccinate those that they are responsible for. To remove this liberty because you think they are not smart enough is a step closer to state mandated sterilization, because they are not smart enough to have kids. Who is officially the smartest and gets to make the decision is whoever is in office at the time. So, is there any Politician that you think is actually smart about anything remotely scientific, or is interested in truth over special interest money, or actually cares about you?
Vaccines are good but Liberty is more important.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by fennec on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:35AM (2 children)
Life is not black and white, smart or dumb... Some peoples don't care to "understand herd immunity" and will just listen to the wrong person. The same way it was decided that you can't speed at 100 in a town with your car for the security of others, health organizations decide to have everyone vaccinated. Your liberty stops at the beginning of others. In that case, the others are the ones that can't get vaccinated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:20PM (1 child)
no, you stupid, lying fuck. i'm not responsible for nature or the fucking weather, you dumb ass bastard. Nor your immune compromised children/grandmother. if you have a vulnerable relative keep their ass in the house or stay out of cramped public spaces. unless i purposely infect you, it's not my fault.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:28PM
Don't hold back, friend. Tell us how you really feel.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @08:28AM (3 children)
Compulsory mass vaccines for "everyone" should be those that:
1) have decent protection for years or even decades
2) side effects and risks are low.
3) the risk/impact to the unvaccinated is high
4) the benefit/cost of the vaccine overall is good
5) are paid for by the State/taxpayers (e.g. "free" to all).
Stuff like measles vaccines are in this category.
Note if 5) is not true in your country and people have to pay for themselves and their kids then your country is saying that mass vaccination with that vaccine isn't really that important right? ;)
Whereas I'm not convinced for stuff like flu vaccines which have mediocre or even no protection for months, are expensive and you "need" to take them every year:
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm [cdc.gov]
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/09/15/493982110/yes-it-is-possible-to-get-your-flu-shot-too-soon [npr.org]
I'll be all for compulsory mass vaccinations with flu vaccines once they use one that works as well as a measles vaccine. Till then it'll seem more like compulsory profit for the vaccine manufacturers.
I know about the herd immunity stuff but it's often the vaccine proof flu that kills the old people. The flu variants we're used to year in and out and the vaccines work with are likely to be the flus that most of us will survive. Whereas the unexpected mutant bird+pig+human flu from China/Africa/Wherever that the available flu vaccine doesn't do shit against, is the one that hits even the healthy hard and kills the weak. If people are weak/ immune compromised require that all their caregivers and visitors have had the flu vaccines. That'll achieve almost the same thing without wasting billions on vaccinating everyone with a vaccine that might not even work.
If your country is rich enough to give everything to everyone for "free" then go ahead, but for other countries there's stuff like opportunity costs, spending $$$$$$ to vaccinate everyone every year with vaccines that aren't that effective is a waste of money that would be more beneficial spent elsewhere.
For example, you might even get more bang for the buck by providing zinc supplements to those who'll benefit from them: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866616/ [nih.gov]
5 cents per pill at retail prices (so should be cheaper if in bulk) and improves things vs other diseases as well: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3231897/ [nih.gov]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771250/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 17 2019, @12:37PM (1 child)
This article, for instance, has a LOT of substantiating links to scientific publications. Dismiss it wholesale as "anti-vaxxer propaganda" at your peril.
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2019/03/06/effectiveness-of-flu-vaccine.aspx [mercola.com]
By contrast, Tamiflu (oseltamivir) if used from the day of onset of symptoms, works like a charm; firsthand experience. If you want to protect yourself and your family for real, have a pack of these in your home.
By the way, make it your habit to avoid touching handrails and such in public places, as much as possible, and epidemic after epidemic will just pass you by. The primary route of flu transmission is this, and not directly by air from the sneezing sufferers that everyone fears.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday June 17 2019, @04:56PM
Nope. Please do not visit Joe Mercola's site. The man is a public menace who hawks BS cures and BS products, and seemingly will endorse any quackery to put money in his own pocket.
I'll admit that probably 50-70% of info his site is legit, so I don't know what the linked article says. But a significant other portion of it is hawking BS, making BS up, and probably 10% of it is absolute looney-land BS (to be classified along with the ancient aliens, flat-earthers, and other weirdness).
So no, don't visit his site. Don't click on his links to give him money, even unintentionally through clickbaity articles that will give him ad revenue.
(And no, this is not a kneejerk reaction. This is well-known to anyone who believes in the scientific method. Mercola is a menace to society, whose quackery likely contributes to hundreds of deaths each year, if not more, a lot of them potentially due to his anti-vaxxer BS.)
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday June 17 2019, @11:24PM
Even, if you don't get the flu vaccine, there are things you can do to keep from getting it and / or protect others from getting it when you have it. Emphasis, mine.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/in-depth/flu-shots/art-20048000 [mayoclinic.org]
Your co-workers, don't thank you for getting them sick, because you just won't stay home.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:03PM
https://www.fergusonmd.com/ [fergusonmd.com]