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posted by takyon on Wednesday June 26 2019, @02:14PM   Printer-friendly
from the high-ground dept.

Submitted via IRC for Bytram

Divisive giant telescope cleared for construction on Hawaiian peak

Last week, the state of Hawaii gave astronomers a green light to begin to build the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), which would rise on the volcanic peak of Mauna Kea as one of the largest telescopes in the world. Project leaders say they are set to begin construction after a 4-year delay caused by sit-down protests and court challenges from Native Hawaiians opposed to structures on a site they consider sacred. But some astronomers worry the threat of disruptions and even violence will persist.

"These are passionate people," says Richard Ellis, an astronomer at University College London who helped develop the TMT concept. "They know that once it gets going their case is weaker." Others say the project should do more to engage with the protesters. "We need to talk with people who disagree with us," says Thayne Currie, an astrophysicist the NASA Ames Research Center in Mountain View, California, who works on Japan's Subaru Telescope on Mauna Kea.

Although legal barriers are now removed, opponents say they can still try to block access to the road that leads up to the 4200-meter-high summit. "What other tools do we have, apart from having people arrested in large numbers?" asks Kealoha Pisciotta, founder of Mauna Kea Anaina Hou, one of the main opposition organizations. In 2015, 1000 protesters gathered on the mountain, but "there are way, way more people involved now," she says. The astronomers "may have won in the courts, but they haven't won the moral high ground."

Previously: Protests Temporarily Halt Thirty-Meter Telescope's Construction in Hawaii
Hawaiian Court Revokes Permit for Construction of Thirty-Meter-Telescope
Thirty Meter Telescope Considering Move as Hawaii Officials Open Hearing
Canary Islands Chosen as Backup Site for the Thirty-Meter Telescope


Original Submission

Related Stories

Protests Temporarily Halt Thirty-Meter Telescope's Construction in Hawaii 52 comments

The construction of the 18-story, $1.4 billion Thirty-Meter Telescope atop the Mauna Kea volcano in Hawaii has been temporarily halted due to protests.

The campaign has garnered celebrity support and participants across the world:

Supporters of the project point out that there are already 13 telescopes built within that conservation zone. But none are as large as the latest planned structure, dubbed the Thirty-Meter Telescope, which would require the destruction of five acres of land.

The Honolulu-born Game of Thrones star Jason Momoa posted pictures on Instagram and Twitter using the hashtag #WeAreMaunaKea, That and the hashtag #ProtectMaunaKea have seen big jumps in use this week. San Francisco Giants' pitcher Madison Bumgarner, Pussycat Doll Nicole Scherzinger and Momoa's on-screen spouse, Emilia Clarke, and real-life partner, Lisa Bonet, also got involved.

Momoa's Instagram account is currently dedicated to the issue with a link to an online petition pasted as his status. The Instagram account @ProtectMaunakea also hosts pictures of hundreds of people who have posted signs in support of the conservation efforts. Organisers protested off social media as well by holding a worldwide sign waving with participants from Hawaii, Alaska, New York City, Las Vegas, Kentucky, Arizona, Tahiti and Tonga.

The Thirty-Meter Telecope's web site also has coverage.

Hawaiian Court Revokes Permit for Construction of Thirty-Meter-Telescope 37 comments

From Nature.com:

Hawaii's supreme court has ruled that the construction permit for the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on top of the mountain Mauna Kea is invalid. The 2 December decision is a major blow to the international consortium backing the US$1.5-billion telescope, and a win for the Native Hawaiians who have protested against its construction on what they regard as a sacred summit.

And the top reddit comment on the article, which I found neatly summed up the situation.

I spent time in Hawaii and talked to locals that were born and raised there about this issue. Its polarizing.

People against it brought up the need for spirituality and respect for the Hawaiian culture lost over hundred of years of Western influence.

Argument for the telescope, however, claimed that building it would do nothing but respect their history. How did the ancient Hawaiians get to the island? They used the stars. It was "in their blood" to understand the heavens. Most of the those complaining are young disenfranchised people struggling in one of the crappiest economies in America.

Of course this could be a generalization based on second hand observation.

As for me, as big as these telescopes are, they look like ants on top of these massive volcanoes. Ruining the scenery is nonsense.

We covered the Groundbreaking for World's Largest Telescope nearly a month ago.


Original Submission

Thirty Meter Telescope Considering Move as Hawaii Officials Open Hearing 59 comments

Hearings on the potential construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), opposed by native and environmental activists, begin on October 18th:

If you are going to spend more than a billion dollars building one of the world's biggest telescopes, you'll want to put it in a place with the best possible view of the stars. But in the case of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), an instrument that promises unprecedented images of everything from the most distant galaxies to nearby exoplanets, builders may have to settle for second best.

Next week, the fierce legal and cultural battle that has engulfed efforts to build the TMT on Mauna Kea, a 4207-meter-high peak in Hawaii, will reignite as state officials open a pivotal hearing on whether to allow construction. The peak is rated as the best observing site in the Northern Hemisphere, but for Native Hawaiians it is sacred land, and many residents oppose the project. "The risk [to the project] is by no means small," says project manager Gary Sanders of the TMT International Observatory in Pasadena, California, and "the cost of delay is significant." So the project is also hedging its bets by considering alternative sites.

There is a wealth of information available on the Thirty-Meter Telescope web site.

Previously:
Protests Temporarily Halt Thirty-Meter Telescope's Construction in Hawaii
Hawaiian Court Revokes Permit for Construction of Thirty-Meter-Telescope


Original Submission

Canary Islands Chosen as Backup Site for the Thirty-Meter Telescope 44 comments

The board of governors for the Thirty-Meter Telescope has chosen an alternate site for construction that could allow it to cut its losses in Mauna Kea:

The Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) could move to La Palma, in Spain's Canary Islands, if opposition from Native Hawaiians prevents the next-generation observatory from being built atop the Hawaiian mountain of Mauna Kea as planned.

The decision, announced on 31 October by the TMT International Observatory's board of governors, creates an alternative path forward for the troubled mega-telescope. Its opponents blocked access to the Mauna Kea site in April 2015, halting construction, although work on the telescope's components continues at sites around the world. Native Hawaiians regard the decision to build the TMT on Mauna Kea as the continued desecration of a sacred mountaintop that hosts 13 other telescopes, some of which are being decommissioned.

In December, Hawaii's state supreme court nullified the permit that would have allowed the TMT to proceed. A fresh round of hearings began this month, with TMT officials seeking a new permit from the state's Bureau of Land and Natural Resources.

Previously:
Thirty Meter Telescope Considering Move as Hawaii Officials Open Hearing
Hawaiian Court Revokes Permit for Construction of Thirty-Meter-Telescope
Protests Temporarily Halt Thirty-Meter Telescope's Construction in Hawaii


Original Submission

Protesters Block Road in Attempt to Halt Thirty Meter Telescope Construction 32 comments

Hawaii Protesters Block Access Road To Stop Construction Of Massive Telescope

About 300 demonstrators are trying to halt construction on the controversial Thirty Meter Telescope, developers of which are supposed to break ground on Hawaii's Big Island this week. Before the sun came up on the summit of Mauna Kea, the island's tallest mountain, a group of about half a dozen protesters chained themselves to a grate in the road at the base of the dormant volcano in an attempt to block workers from accessing the only paved road onto the what they say is a sacred site.

Imai Winchester, a teacher from Oahu who was among the protesters chained to the road, said he arrived at about 3 a.m. local time. "A handful of us committed ourselves to this action to bring light to the situation here," Winchester told KHON. The goal of the civil disobedience, he said, is to inform people about the "desecration of our lands, the failure of the state and its agencies to properly manage something that is important." He added that he expected to be arrested for the nonviolent protest but that it is the group's "burden as well as our privilege to show our children and the rest of the world how much we love our land."

Daniel Meisenzahl, a spokesman for the University of Hawaii, a member of the international partnership of scientists behind the telescope, said it is unclear if the protest has delayed construction convoys.

Previously: Divisive Giant Telescope Cleared for Construction on Hawaiian Peak


Original Submission

Mauna Kea Observatories Evacuate Amid Protests Against Thirty Meter Telescope Construction 29 comments

With access to summit blocked, telescope operators abandon Mauna Kea summit

The directors of existing telescopes at the summit of Mauna Kea evacuated their employees Tuesday as a growing protest against the construction of TMT blocked access to the mountain.

Jessica Dempsey, the deputy director for the East Asian Observatory, said the organizations that run the observatories made a "joint decision" to withdraw all employees as a safety precaution. [...] The telescopes, Dempsey said, have millions of dollars of instrumentation that need constant maintenance. "This is a risk for us to have to step away at this point," she said. "This is not a decision we came to lightly, but want to emphasize the importance of safety for our staffs and the facilities."

Protesters at Mauna Kea welcomed the news Tuesday, with an eruption of cheers and hugs.

'Stolen lands': dozens arrested as Hawaiians protest $1.4bn telescope

Dozens of people have been arrested on Hawaii's Big Island this week after hundreds of protesters stood, lay and even chained themselves to structures in an effort to stop the construction of a billion-dollar space observatory at the summit of Hawaii's tallest mountain.

[...] [Organizer Kahoʻokahi] Kanuha and fellow protesters have vowed to continue fighting the telescope until construction is halted, and plan to continue peaceful protests. On Wednesday an estimated 1,000 demonstrators turned up at the site, with police issuing citations to 33 people.

Previously: Divisive Giant Telescope Cleared for Construction on Hawaiian Peak
Protesters Block Road in Attempt to Halt Thirty Meter Telescope Construction


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday June 26 2019, @02:53PM (11 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday June 26 2019, @02:53PM (#860097)

    There's little or no way they're going to convince (some of) the locals that they want this telescope to be built, it's similar to convincing Native Americans to allow a factory to be built on their reservation. They (again, some of the locals) don't care about what it's doing - except maybe to dislike it, they don't see any benefit to themselves, all they see is the invaders taking yet another piece of what little they have left of their ancestors' land.

    If the locals want to sit on the road to the summit to protest, maybe they can find something productive for them to do while they are there and pay them for it? Road maintenance, cleanup and landscaping - preservation of native plants, security?

    The other solution is to pray for big, rideable surf, that will reduce the number of protesters considerably.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @05:05PM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @05:05PM (#860161)

      You're despicable. Typical imperialist attitude.

      You would be forgiven for preferring the telescope be built, but not the dismissive attitude towards the people and their land which was stolen from them. No wonder the US is so fucked right now, basic human decency has been replaced with the historically typical attitude of imperialists, "We're superior in every conceivable way so fuck those people and whatever they're complaining about. Hope they're washed away to die in the ocean."

      I would typically throw in a "lawl" or something, but even cynical humor is losing its appeal these days.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:24PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:24PM (#860195) Journal

        Did you see the movie 2009 movie Avatar [wikipedia.org] ?

        Some primitive savages are resisting the kindly efforts of a developed technological race of visitors who would provide them with medicine, roads and other beneficial technology.


        The visitors are trying to peacefully persuade the savages to allow their planet to be strip mined for some valuable unobtainium*. But those idiotic savages, unable to recognize the technologies that would be in their own best interests, create a conflict by not agreeing. Their disagreement leaves the visitors no choice but to use military action to kill everything in their path in order to harvest the unobtainium.

        *unobtainium -- yes that's what it was called. But the movie failed to indicate what slot it occupied on the periodic table.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Freeman on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:42PM (7 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:42PM (#860208) Journal

        . . . I thought Hawaii was acquired amicably.

        ... a group of mostly Euro-American business leaders and residents formed the Committee of Safety to stage a coup d'état ... On January 17, 1893, Queen Liliʻuokalani was overthrown and replaced by a provisional government composed of members of the Committee of Safety. The United States Minister to the Kingdom of Hawaii (John L. Stevens) conspired with U.S. citizens to overthrow the monarchy.[78]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii [wikipedia.org]

        So, not amicably, but there was no actual fighting / war. Seems like it was more of a corporate take over as opposed to anything else.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday June 26 2019, @10:40PM (6 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday June 26 2019, @10:40PM (#860281)

          The way the US went about adding Hawaii to the Empire was pretty nasty, despite the lack of shooting.

          In 1887, Kalākaua was forced to sign the 1887 Constitution of the Kingdom of Hawaii. Drafted by white businessmen and lawyers, the document stripped the king of much of his authority. It established a property qualification for voting that effectively disenfranchised most Hawaiians...

          Of course it did. Can't have the slaves voting.

          ...it is known as the Bayonet Constitution.

          Nice.

          Prior to the postwar labor movement, Hawaii was governed by plantation owners.

          Who ensured labour rights were respected of course.

          Plantation owners and capitalists, who maintained control through financial institutions such as the Big Five, found territorial status convenient because they remained able to import cheap, foreign labor. Such immigration and labor practices were prohibited in many states.

          I suppose the Thirteenth Amendment only went so far.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:32PM (5 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:32PM (#860293)

            The real story, of course, is "it's complicated." Hawaii had a king... who gained power, like most kings, through violence and genocide. Eventually the king died, and his wife succeeded him - she was the one mostly responsible for bringing in Christianity, more rights for women, and many Western traditions, including literacy. This cultural shift was irreversible and is what set Hawaii on the path toward eventual westernization.

            But Hawaii faced constant invasions - in those days mostly by France, but later on by Britain and it was threatened by Spain and Japan, so they asked for American military support. Then the Americans brought in plantations (though not slave plantations) that exported sugar. Much of the profits of the sugar went to the plantation owners, but most of the profits of everything always go to the owners. Native Hawaiians didn't want to work on sugar plantations, so foreign workers were imported. But it turned out the Hawaiians still actually wanted the sugar trade, because it still brought in lots of money for the then-country. They had to sell Pearl Harbor to the Americans in order to keep their favored trade status, but the deal wasn't made under any kind of threat. But then the Spanish-American War happened, and Americans started buying sugar from the Caribbean instead. And then the Hawaii was threatened by imperial Japan (which would, of course, have treated their citizens and customs with the utmost respect). Hawaii was declining, vulnerable, and strategically located. It was going to be occupied or annexed by somebody. The only real question was whether it would be the US, Britain, or Japan. Hawaii, sensibly, chose the one that they already had close ties to, and that was going to actually respect their citizens and culture (so long as they got their military bases and trade profits).

            Yes, the Bayonet Constitution existed, and it did favor American businessmen, but it was only brought in after the last member of the Kamehameha dynasty died (of natural causes), leaving the country in a state of civil war. American military forces had to be called in to stop the violence, so naturally they expected a constitution to be written (and it was a democratic constitution). Most of the people disenfranchised by it were actually Japanese, not Hawaiian. In those days, there were more Japanese people living in Hawaii than native Hawaiians.

            Hawaii was treated with a great deal of respect by the United States, was never militarily occupied, was not politically meddled with as long as they had a viable native government, and the only colonial concession Hawaii ever had to make was Ford Island (Pearl Harbor) - which the natives had stopped using for its original rituals and converted into a sugar plantation. Agitators today like to pretend Hawaii was (or IS) oppressed. It's not, and it never was. History happened, that's all.

            • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday June 27 2019, @01:10AM (4 children)

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday June 27 2019, @01:10AM (#860323)

              Wow. That is really ignoring a lot of history, right there.

              After riots broke out, the United States and Britain landed troops on the islands...

              So, yes, the US did ccupy Hawaii, that was in 1874.

              On January 14, 1893, a group of mostly Euro-American business leaders and residents formed the Committee of Safety to stage a coup d'état against the kingdom and seek annexation by the United States. United States Government Minister John L. Stevens, responding to a request from the Committee of Safety, summoned a company of U.S. Marines.

              Another military occupation not even 20 years later, also a coup. Not really "treated with a great deal of respect by the United States" after all.

              Plantation owners and capitalists, who maintained control through financial institutions such as the Big Five, found territorial status convenient because they remained able to import cheap, foreign labor. Such immigration and labor practices were prohibited in many states.

              I suppose we can pretend that is not slavery. I wonder why those labor practices were prohibited in many States? Probably too close to slavery.

              Here is some of the Wikipedia article on Hawaii. [wikipedia.org]

              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:29AM (3 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:29AM (#860347)

                The US was no angel of mercy to Hawaii, but if we hadn't at least protected them, some other imperialist nation would have come in instead. This was the reality of the 1800s, none of the imperialists were strong enough to declare a Bush style "new world order" and demand that valuable independents be left independent, so as an independent, you were lucky if you got taken over by the imperialist of your choosing.

                As an imperial power, the only way to hold a territory like Hawaii was to exploit it as was done with sugar cane, etc. Otherwise, it would need to be sold off or traded away to another imperial power who could exploit it more fully - arbitrage, writ large with cannons and slow ships.

                If you think that I think that this was "good for" the natives, you have completely missed the sarcasm. It sucked for the American indigenous, and it sucked for the Pacific islanders, but if any one or two imperial nations had tried to leap forward 100 years in diplomatic posturing, they'd just have been hurting themselves and not significantly helping the lesser (in terms of military power) nations that they might have attempted to protect. The story of Hawaii, from first contact with Europeans through statehood is filled with sadness and injustice, perhaps even more sad than the North American natives because most of the Hawaiians lived through the ordeal and accurately told the tales to their children.

                So, now, the Europeans/Americans want another big telescope on the King's nature preserve - and when viewed from the perspective of the world, or even just the state government of Hawaii, building it is a good thing to do. But, when viewed from the perspective of the natives who live in Puna, just down the road, it's just more pissing on their heads - even if we are nice enough to try to tell them it's rain.

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:59AM (2 children)

                  by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:59AM (#860362)

                  If you think that I think that this was "good for" the natives, you have completely missed the sarcasm.

                  Oh. Yes I did miss that.

                  I was answering the A/C above who seems to have swallowed the US history propaganda completely and does even know that the US had a policy of Empire building at all.

                  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:24PM (1 child)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:24PM (#860519)

                    In one sense, the US was no worse than the rest of the world at the time - perhaps even in the better half.

                    In another sense, the whole imperialist world of the 1800s were a bunch of nasty bastards - but, given a choice between being one of the nasty bastards or one of the victims, at least by playing the role of nasty bastard the US was able help lead things to a better place.

                    Assuming civilization survives until 2100, I'm fairly sure they'll be saying the same about this era.

                    --
                    🌻🌻 [google.com]
                    • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday June 27 2019, @07:57PM

                      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday June 27 2019, @07:57PM (#860664)

                      Oh yes, absolutely.

                      The Hawaiians were bloody lucky Belgium didn't have much of a navy.

      • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday June 27 2019, @01:25AM

        by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday June 27 2019, @01:25AM (#860330) Journal
  • (Score: 2) by CZB on Wednesday June 26 2019, @02:55PM (1 child)

    by CZB (6457) on Wednesday June 26 2019, @02:55PM (#860098)

    Do their shaman/elders take donations? What would it take to be accepted as a holy telescope that honors #[local deity]?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:04PM (6 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:04PM (#860101)

    Under the surface it is all about money, so
    Let the natives operate the telescope, then they have an ongoing income stream

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:12PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:12PM (#860103)

      Operate the telescope? Why not let the write up the astronomy papers?
      Ethnic set-asides done proper!

      • (Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:18PM (3 children)

        by Hartree (195) on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:18PM (#860107)

        "Why not let the write up the astronomy papers?"

        If they go through the PhD level education to have the qualifications, I'm all for it.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Wednesday June 26 2019, @10:59PM (2 children)

          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday June 26 2019, @10:59PM (#860286) Homepage
          Wondering how belief in the "sacred" will jibe with "astrophysics". I'm generally laissez-faire when it comes to letting people maintain their woo-woo, but not when it potentially interferes with hard science. I don't want to be seeing papers about how spirits were seen leaving the surface of the sun, angry spirits, who didn't like earth's electronics, so briefly turned it all off two days later.
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:55PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:55PM (#860302)

            There is no contention between 'sacred' and 'astrophysics'. They are orthogonal concepts. Although, many crazy religions, hello Abraham I'm looking at you, seem to add their own mythology to the sacred thus demeaning it to the physical world wherein begins the conflict.

          • (Score: 2) by Hartree on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:03PM

            by Hartree (195) on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:03PM (#860509)

            Example: Brother Guy Consolmagno is a Jesuit monk who is the head of the Vatican observatory. He's a serious scientist (astronomer) and finds no conflict between his belief and the science.

            People who try to publish tripe don't get their papers accepted and quickly move to other pursuits. If you publish good work, it doesn't matter what you think on your own time.

    • (Score: 2, Troll) by DannyB on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:26PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:26PM (#860199) Journal

      Give the natives pictures from the telescope. Convince them the pictures are sacred and more pictures must continue to be taken indefinitely.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:14PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:14PM (#860104)

    This is what happens when there is no respect for the law.
    Things NEVER get settled.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:27PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:27PM (#860111)

      If the natives occupy government buildings and start beheading politicians and cops, would it be unethical, monstrous, colonialist, and racist to send the Army in to wipe them all out?

      We should build a telescope on their holy sites every week until we can answer these crucial questions.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:30PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:30PM (#860112)

        We are living in the 21st century, not the 19th.
        None of that shit is justification for present action.
        Otherwise I could shoot Indians for kidnapping and scalping my white ancestors. That shit is long over.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:52PM (#860126)

          But some astronomers worry the threat of disruptions and even violence will persist.

          Once they start damaging multi-million dollar equipment and throwing rocks at astronomers, you will see 19th century action.

      • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @05:07PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @05:07PM (#860163)

        Nah that is only acceptable when done by batshit crazy repugnicans.

        What is with the spiteful violence around here?

  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:32PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @03:32PM (#860114)

    -nomsg

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @04:20PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @04:20PM (#860139)

    Given the problems that it has caused for all of humanity, can any position that espouses the concept of "sacred land" really be considered a moral high ground?

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:45PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:45PM (#860298)

      No, especially when the land isn't even sacred.

      There are a number of actual sacred sites located on Mauna Kea. These are protected sites and not used for construction or any other non-religious purpose. There is absolutely no evidence that the mountain as a whole was ever considered sacred. When asked to justify these claims, the agitators usually say something like "oh, it's a wholeness of experience and belief, something that can't be explained," i.e. 100% pure bullshit. Agitators like to sometimes pretend that the mountain's name is actually "Mauna Wakea," named after a deity. It's not. It means "White Mountain," because the mountain has prominent snow and ice.

      The whole thing is made up. Complete garbage. Nothing but lies.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:38AM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday June 27 2019, @02:38AM (#860353)

        i.e. 100% pure bullshit

        Feelings are not bullshit. They felt that the mountain was theirs, not divided up into ranches and exploited for profit, but theirs to enjoy and share in its natural state.

        More roads, more traffic, more construction on the mountain is changing that, just like every scrap of white-sand beach has been developed with "luxury resorts," so now the natives can have blue jeans and lite beer, but they can't enjoy their beaches like they used to.

        The telescope isn't even going to give them an extra can in their six pack, not the way a new resort hotel or airport would. I don't blame them for "not seeing the benefit" and sticking to their desire to preserve things the way they were.

        Legal arguments, based on other people's laws, are the bullshit in this scenario, but legal arguments, in the imperialist's court, are what will be deciding how it plays out.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday June 27 2019, @03:15AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 27 2019, @03:15AM (#860371) Journal

          Feelings are not bullshit.

          Sure.

  • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @04:23PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @04:23PM (#860140)

    So it's a Democrat telescope?

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:02PM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Wednesday June 26 2019, @11:02PM (#860287) Homepage
      Well, it's a scientific one, so more probably that than the other side.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:34PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 26 2019, @06:34PM (#860204)

    There are about 3 different uses that make some sense:

    1. telescopes
    2. wilderness tourism
    3. rocket launch site

    Those are all incompatible. The area already has some telescopes, so I think we've made our choice.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday June 27 2019, @03:02AM (1 child)

      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday June 27 2019, @03:02AM (#860364)

      so I think we've made our choice.

      Well, yes. Some non-Hawaiians have made a choice.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 27 2019, @05:43PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 27 2019, @05:43PM (#860624)

        This is why multiculturalism doesn't work.
        You can't have unity when people divide themselves on easily identified tribal lines: race, ethnicity, language, whatever.
        There has to be an indisputably dominant group for society to be stable.

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