ICE Used Facial Recognition to Mine State Driver's License Databases
WASHINGTON — Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials have mined state driver's license databases using facial recognition technology, analyzing millions of motorists' photos without their knowledge.
In at least three states that offer driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants, ICE officials have requested to comb through state repositories of license photos, according to newly released documents. At least two of those states, Utah and Vermont, complied, searching their photos for matches, those records show.
In the third state, Washington, agents authorized administrative subpoenas of the Department of Licensing to conduct a facial recognition scan of all photos of license applicants, though it was unclear whether the state carried out the searches. In Vermont, agents only had to file a paper request that was later approved by Department of Motor Vehicles employees.
The documents, obtained through public records requests by Georgetown Law's Center on Privacy and Technology and first reported on by The Washington Post, mark the first known instance of ICE using facial recognition technology to scan state driver's license databases, including photos of legal residents and citizens.
Privacy experts like Harrison Rudolph, an associate at the center, which released the documents to The New York Times, said the records painted a new picture of a practice that should be shut down.
[...] He continued: "These states have never told undocumented people that when they apply for a driver's license they are also turning over their face to ICE. That is a huge bait and switch."
The use of facial recognition technology by law enforcement is far from new or rare. Over two dozen states allow law enforcement officials to request such searches against their databases of driver's licenses, a practice that has drawn criticism from lawmakers and advocates who say that running facial recognition searches against millions of photos of unwitting, law-abiding citizens is a major privacy violation.
The F.B.I., for example, has tapped state law enforcement's troves of photos — primarily those for driver's licenses and visa applications — for nearly a decade, according to a Government Accountability Office report. The bureau has run over 390,000 searches through databases that collectively hold over 640 million photos, F.B.I. officials said.
[...] The Seattle Times reported last year that Washington State's Department of Licensing turned over undocumented immigrants' driver's license applications to ICE officials, a practice its governor, Jay Inslee, pledged to stop. And a lawsuit in Vermont filed by an activist group cited documents obtained under public records law that showed that the state Department of Motor Vehicles forwarded names, photos, car registrations and other information on migrant workers to ICE, Vermont Public Radio reported this year.
The relationship between Washington's Department of Licensing and ICE officials may prove to be particularly interesting to privacy experts because of a law the State Legislature passed in 2012 stipulating that the department could use a facial recognition matching system for driver's licenses only when authorized by a court order, something ICE did not provide.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @01:58PM (52 children)
I'm not a fan of the technology. But the problem here, specifically, is that some dickhead is thinking about the ILLEGAL FUCKING ALIENS ahead of us, the citizens. He needs to see a doctor, who can prescribe a small caliber projectile to the neck. He might have avoided my ire, had he objected to the invasion of privacy of CITIZENS.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @02:07PM (49 children)
Don't sign your post, traitorous bastard. I know you've voted again and again for people who violate your rights in order to catch your imagined enemies, but your title you should an accurate description of your post, something like "I hate immigrants more than I like due process", not a description of yourself in the process of voting away our rights.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @02:36PM (48 children)
Can I offer you a napkin? You're frothing.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @02:47PM (47 children)
Shouldn't I be? You're a fucking monster, and have the termidity to complain about the way your evil happens to bounce back on your life, and blame the people you're hunting for it.
You're willing to give up every single thing we hold dear in order to prosecute, en masse, a group of people whose crimes, are, at worst, trivial.
I seriously don't know if there's ever going to be a reckoning, or whether you and your ilk ever answer for your crimes, but I can at least pretend that telling you will give you a moment's pause about the kind of person you've decided to be. My experience tells me, no, you'll use that bucket of "angry" you just dropped me in to ignore me and go right back to loudly demanding more human rights violations. But I can pretend you have a conscience.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @03:00PM (39 children)
Speaking of human rights violations - didn't O'Crazio Cortez vote AGAINST money for the invaders at the border?
I keep telling you that shutting down the border is the most humane thing you can do for the invaders. But, no, you prefer to believe that it's more humane to allow them to wander across the desert, at the mercy of coyotes.
Before you lecture me about monsters, why don't you walk into Mexico, then walk back out, along one of the known human traffiking corridors? Go, get an idea WTF you're talking about.
And, with that, I'm going to make a donation to WBTW - in your name. LMAO https://webuildthewall.us/ [webuildthewall.us]
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @03:24PM (37 children)
More money for concetration camps! That's what we're missing!
Fuck you and die. No really. Your death would benefit the world so much.
If you're rebuttal is that the 3.6 billion annually we're handing private prison interests specifically for immigration related detainees(many of whom have committed literally no crime and are merely awaiting hearings on their applications) is not enough, it's time for you to just stop breathing.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @03:34PM (22 children)
Your hatred is making the rounds. Lots of liberals have caught it in recent years.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @04:17PM (19 children)
"Oh, I just want to do a little ethnic cleansing, u mad bro?"
Like I said, of course I'm mad, you're a terrible fucking person and unambiguously deserve to die.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @05:09PM (18 children)
You're making shit up, all on your own now.
Do you, or do you not, believe in the rule of law? I've stated many times that each and every congress since about 1954 is guilty of negligence. Each of them has had the duty to overhaul immigration, and each of them has failed to do so. Instead, both parties exploit the wetbacks. Even the far-left AlterNet has finally admitted to the fact that both parties exploit them.
https://www.alternet.org/2019/07/why-would-politicians-fix-our-immigration-problems-when-they-can-campaign-off-the-mess/ [alternet.org]
I can't answer for you, but I believe in the rule of law. The law says it's illegal for those people to swarm across the border like they do. That makes them CRIMINALS. Criminals are undeserving of privileges, perks, benefits, or respect.
Have you read about the criminals in Tijuana, trying to buy children, to use at the border to establish a "family unit"? This isn't Fox News, or MSM - it's local and international news.
https://nworeport.me/2019/07/04/mexico-investigating-reports-of-illegals-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-u-s/ [nworeport.me]
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/story/2019-06-27/tijuana-authorities-investigating-mgroups-trying-to-buy-children-to-cross-into-the-united-states [sandiegouniontribune.com]
Let me stress - MSM isn't carrying that news. It's local news, and it's international news, being withheld from you and me. That is, MSM is playing you and millions of other Americans for chumps.
Please expand your reading horizons. Meet the people who control the border that I want to close - http://www.borderlandbeat.com/ [borderlandbeat.com]
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @05:40PM (8 children)
"Do you not believe in rule of law, that's why mass arrests are violating every single citizens rights are necessary"
Fuck off. You don't want to believe you're an evil fuck, fine. I can't make you have a conscience. I know you can invent technicalities that ease your mind from confronting your craven moral cowardice forever. You don't have to prove it to me.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @05:52PM (6 children)
And, what I know about you is, you are a hateful person, who is happy to wallow in his ignorance. Go read that alternet story. Then, start writing your representatives, and DEMAND that immigration be overhauled. I don't care much whether your bleeding heart wants to see twenty million LEGAL immigrants per year, or twenty thousand per year. The undeniable FACT is, immigration needs to be overhauled - then it needs to be ENFORCED.
Rule of law. What's so hard to understand about that? Or, do you prefer the current exploitation that is going on?
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/03/book-of-kids-drawings-chronicles-mexico.html [borderlandbeat.com]
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:47PM (5 children)
You're a dumb shit, re-read your first post eh? Funny how once you get triggered you fall back on the propaganda style responses and forget your own point!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @09:36PM (4 children)
Re-read my own post? You're referring to the bit about a doctor, and a prescription? Uh-huh. And, you're going to deny that I have quite literally "triggered" Mr. Ikanread? Except, he's gone over the top, and is literally frothing at the mouth. In fact, he's admitted as much. So - you had some kind of point to make?
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @10:07PM (3 children)
You're right, I should have paid more attention, I thought you were directing some anger at a politician in your initial post for advancing spy tech legislation because he was FRAUGHT with anxiety about illegal immigrants.
Turns out you're just stupid as ever and should really look into the whole "literally" definition. Yes ikanreed is angry, but rightfully so with fascists like you running your mouths off. You need a good ol' Puerto Rican pop to the mouth!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @10:33PM
Another violent antifa liberal is showing its true colors. It needs a good ol' bullet to the head.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @11:07PM (1 child)
Huh. I'm not sure I've met a 'Rican internet tough guy before. I've met some in pretty tough 'Ricans in person, but not on the nets! So, whatcha gonna do - email that pop to the mouth to me?
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 1) by Arik on Thursday July 11 2019, @07:22AM
These stupid emojis after your name still confuse the heck out of me. But whatever. You're a man with a little brain and a big heart. And sometimes you turn a hell of a phrase on top of it.
\~/
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @06:26PM
*sigh* I hope you don't consider yourself a liberal, you are giving it a bad name.
We have the right to send them back. I wish we had the guts to do it!
Let them ask nicely, and we will consider their request.
Climb the wall and make a break for it, back you go!
Don't be such a passive aggressive weenie! You impotence is rather revealing when all you have are cheap ineffectual insults. Provide an argument, or shut the fuck up!
(Score: 5, Informative) by Arik on Monday July 08 2019, @05:49PM (4 children)
Actually, you're wrong on that. That's not a CRIMINAL offense, it's a status offense, an administrative matter, not a criminal one. It's similar to driving a car with lapsed registration - yes, it's illegal, but no, it's not CRIMINAL. Kill someone with the car, now we're in criminal territory. There is a difference.
There are other things going on along the border that are very much criminal, of course, there are huge problems there, but you can't attribute that as a blanket over everyone seeking to immigrate. And we don't. ICE doesn't even agree with your interpretation, they distinguish between detainees and criminals. The last I heard they report overlap of about 40% - which means around 60% of their detainees are not considered criminals.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @05:56PM (3 children)
A technicality, really. A lawbreaker is a lawbreaker - it's only a matter of the seriousness of the infraction. When a person wanders into the country in violation of the law, you might expect that he has no respect for any other laws. 40% are criminals, the remaining 60% are lawbreakers who have not (yet) reached criminal status.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Monday July 08 2019, @06:04PM (2 children)
You've never forgotten to renew your registration, or your drivers license? You've never gone walking and wound up somewhere you weren't supposed to be? You would want to be cuffed and booked for such a thing?
A nation of laws is one thing, but let's not be a nation that worships the letter and forgets the spirit.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @06:16PM (1 child)
Actually, it's the same sort of hard line that the typical officer takes when he pulls you over. He sees an expired tag on your car, he stops you, asks for your license, registration, and insurance, gets on his computer, and searches nationwide for warrants, arrests, convictions, etc ad nauseum. That is, he spots someone breaking a law, however minor, then actively searches for any other possible offenses he can cite.
I'm saying, in regards to immigration, that we know Juan has broken at least one law, and that we really need to investigate him to see if he has broken other laws. He is deserving of deportation already - if he's broken other laws, then he needs to be punished before he is deported.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Monday July 08 2019, @06:25PM
And when he finds nothing else amiss, he returns your papers, reminds you to get that taken care of, and gets back on the road, perhaps still hoping to catch an actual criminal today.
You were quite right in another comment on this point I thought - the immigration system is broken and it needs to be fixed. I don't know why you would blame the non-criminal would-be immigrant for that, it's not their fault, they aren't Congress.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @02:30AM (3 children)
Fact is, undocumented workers were just fine for the Trumpster before he became a politician. Hired plenty of them to clean his toilets. He loved them because they were cheap. Now he uses them to rile up idiots on a non issue just so he can get elected.
The Trumpster is "using" his unwashed masses and they believe his crap because he tells them exactly what they want to hear. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of republican dirty tricks guys went to Guatamala and rounded up a couple of those "caravans" and started them heading north. Wouldn't be hard to organize tossing around a little money getting the coyotes in line, and what fodder this is be for the idiot republican nuts. Happened just before the election...coincidence?
I love how republicans talk about "rule of law" and wrap themselves in the flag when the stuff they do would make Washington, Jefferson, Franklin turn over in their graves. I am pretty sure our founding fathers would not like the turn our country has taken.
The unwashed masses follow Trumpster blindly....no brains anywhere is sight to analyze a situation and see who really benefits. The Republicans politicians are the ones benefiting from the people at the border...nothing like a good "crisis"!!!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:46PM (2 children)
We agree on one thing: the founding fathers would roll over in their graves, if they could see America today. Take the anchor baby issue, for example. The author of the 14th amendment, for instance, would choke over the idea of "anchor babies".
https://www.14thamendment.us/articles/anchor_babies_unconstitutionality.html [14thamendment.us]
So, are we ready to end the practice of granting citizenship to every baby who falls out while his mama happens to be trespassing on US soil?
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 15 2019, @10:55AM (1 child)
Where do American born individuals, who are being kept as sex slaves, never reported to the government, so they have no official government papers and kept in rural or isolated communities (not always rural) fit in? This may seem like a hypothetical, but I've polled enough people recently to understand it is an actual problem in the US. Under current attitudes they are devoid of constitutional rights. If they are also brown or black, I imagine the situation is even worse for them. Since they aren't documented citizens, do they get shuffled off to Mexico? Canada? Europe? Africa? Do they end up incarcerated in some shithole? Do they just get sold off to rich assholes thanks to leaving no papertrail even an FOIA act will help track down?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 15 2019, @11:58AM
By "American born individuals" do you mean the children of citizens, or the children of illegal aliens? https://www.14thamendment.us/articles/anchor_babies_unconstitutionality.html [14thamendment.us] A strict reading of the constitutional amendment, as the author and the legislators intended it would rescue the children of citizens, and deport the children of aliens. That kind of sucks, so I would grant citizenship to those children of aliens found in that predicament.
And, no, your question isn't all that hypothetical. There have been children found in New York City in such circumstances. Haven't seen 'Zumi in awhile, but she referenced such a case, IIRC. It seems the victims in that case were Asian, but I'm no longer sure about that.
The PERPETRATORS of those crimes should be tried on capital charges, if you ask me. And, it wouldn't matter to me at all if the perps were citizens or aliens. The VICTIMS should be helped as much as possible.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @05:48PM
You've got it backwards, but hey Gaslight Obstruct Project works so well for a reason.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @02:08AM
I love how the republicans constantly bring up "hatred". Oooohhh those dems have such "hatred"!!!!
For 8 years during the Obama administration all we heard was hatred from republicans....nothing was right...Obamacare was a republican idea and that was still not good enough because of "not invented here".
I am pretty sure that if it was Canadians walking across the border there would be much less stink from the republicans because the Canadians are not coming from shithole country.
The real hatred is the bigoted hatred of those different than us good ole white people.
Back in the 1940's someone else tried to purify the population and it didn't turn out well for them.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @04:38PM
You really are being the stereotypical "liberal" harpy. He said nothing about more money for the prison camps. He says build the damn wall to keep them out. And I will go further to say to push them back across the border. Let 'em wait on the other side if it's so important to come here. You people refuse to even acknowledge how disrespectful they are being.
Human traffickers paid for these "caravans", find out who they are. And really, shut the fuck up about their "rights". They have the right to ask politely if they may come in. All criminal behavior should be met with a quick U-turn back to where they came from. It couldn't be simpler. You are making us weak. Your goddamn commie religion is mucking up the planet, handing it all over to China.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Arik on Monday July 08 2019, @05:31PM (11 children)
A deeply offensive, and utterly false, implication. Concentration camps were places where people were worked to death when not outright slaughtered. ICE detainment centers are places where people are held temporarily, not put to hard labor but given food and shelter, and definitely not slaughtered to make lampshades. She's blocking money that would have been spent to make them more comfortable, on the hysterical basis that she can't tell the difference between temporary detention and genocide.
And she's NOT HELPING the detainees one bit by doing so.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @05:45PM (9 children)
Do you think I want to hear your "well this ethnic minority we rounded up without due process, crammed into overcrowded, unsafe,, inhumane, and unsanitary conditions that have led to numerous deaths aren't yet systemically killing them" bullshit?
No, I want you to die, and leave the world to decent people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @05:51PM
Runaway seems to be the useful idiot instead of the careful planted agent. His posting behavior certainly seems to maximize division but he has enough depth to make me go with the first option.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Monday July 08 2019, @05:58PM (7 children)
"well this ethnic minority we rounded up"
Wow, they're just going out "rounding up" people based on their ethnicity? Shocking, horrible!
And again, totally false. That's not what's happening at all.
No one at the border cares what ethnicity you are. What, you think they're just rounding up hispanics? Better than half the agents are hispanic themselves, dummy!
The issue is not ethnicity, it's citizenship/visa status or lack thereof. Plenty of hispanic people cross back and forth every day and they aren't detained. Some are US citizens, some have their green card, great, welcome, walk right on through! If you develop a problem there, it's certainly not based on your ethnicity.
Oh, but let me guess, you're not interested in hearing facts, right?
"overcrowded, unsafe,, inhumane, and unsanitary conditions"
Which are still much better conditions on every count than crossing the sonoran desert at the mercy of the coyotes. And the conditions would be better still, if OAC weren't blockading the money intended to pay for it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @06:08PM (6 children)
No, really, I don't care. You're scum.
There's no "well technically" you could possibly form that would excuse your evil.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @06:52PM (5 children)
:-) You know, the repulsiveness of your series of posts here make for excellent campaign material for Trump and the Party.
Are you a double agent? For the GOP? You sure sound like it! If you are, keep up the good work!
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:10PM (4 children)
Being called repulsive by concentration camp advocates just tells me I'm still a human being.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:41PM
They really are bending over backwards because they've been sold the "illegal immigrants are raping murderous bastards who drain the economy and that is why your life sucks Mr. Conservitard."
Don't sweat it, until these idiots are run off a cliff like the lemmings they are they won't understand. It is sad that the majority is dragged along by these loons, but arguing with them here will do no good. Remember, you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't rationally get themselves into.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:43PM
Yes, I suppose clowns are human. Maybe the President can build you clowns your own solidarity camps so you can develop a deeper empathy for the enemy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @11:41PM
Or just anti-Nazi. What are you? A liberal hater, or an Allied Power?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:15AM
:-) Your presumptuousness and self righteousness also make great fodder for the GOP campaign. Please, continue! You're a real barrel of laughs!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:30PM
the jews were not slaughtered and there were no lampshades made of their skin. that was and is a psyop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @05:37PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/07/progressive-colleges-can-house-illegal-immigrants-dorms/ [nationalreview.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @03:29PM
You are beyond stupid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @03:26PM
Termidity? Humid for a specific time period? Death song? I don't get it.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:20PM (5 children)
You are unhinged. My friend recently got to pay 5 grand out of pocket cause an illegal rear-ended her car and tried to run. They caught him, but the insurance company said to persue him through the courts to recoup her out of pocket costs. Yeah good luck with that! She is a legal immigrant from Guatemala BTW, and she too now wants a shinny fucking wall, 50 ft tall.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:39PM (1 child)
yep. we either enforce the borders and have a country or we don't. "enforcing the border" does not mean letting them in and giving them a court date.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:45PM
replying to yourself is stooooopid
(Score: 2) by lentilla on Monday July 08 2019, @10:16PM (1 child)
That's rough for your friend but they have drawn the wrong conclusion. Building a wall won't fix the fact that your insurance system is broken.
Where I live, if an uninsured party damages my car, my insurance company fixes the car and then goes after the uninsured party for costs. (In fact, my car gets repaired even if an unknown party does the damage.) That is; after all; what insurance is for - to protect me from large out-of-pocket expenses. Looking at the wider picture it also ensures that when I run into a Rolls-Royce, they get their vehicle repaired (and I don't go bankrupt). It also means that when someone damages my car and runs away, I don't have to endanger life and limb to apprehend someone to squeeze for cash. The way your insurance system is set up just seems so... uncivilised.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @10:32PM
That's because you have chosen to pay your insurance company to take care of collision damage, regardless of who caused it. If another person is liable, of course they will go after someone they can recover money from.
Collision insurance is expensive and optional, it primarily covers damage you caused to your own car. Springing in for the damage a driver operating illegally without insurance is secondary. What you are talking about the Rolls Royce is liability insurance, covering damage you caused to other's property.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @12:30AM
A friend of mine was out cruzing and protecting "Merika!" when he accidently rear-ended a vehicle driven by an illegal alien. Must've been a coyote, since my friend found $5000 on the body, and then got his truck fixed for free by the ICE "Legal Resident's Re-imbursement" program! Amazing the things you can read on the internets!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:57PM (1 child)
Aye I agree with you 100%. As a legal alien I do not enjoy as much right to privacy as citizens in the US, and as I grew older I realized that I have no right to "righteous indignation" when forced to do certain things, which only seem reasonable. Although I must say that some things while dealign with immigration workers have raised some hairs on the back of my neck, like the fact that all the workers seem to be Hispanic,a nd speak Spanish to eachother while at work, and the fact they seemed quite surprised that the biometrics I gave them 10 years ago matched when I went to renew my green card. But then I realized that I shouldn't be too concerned, I'm not a citizen after all. But if I were I would be fucking terrified.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @09:34PM
As a legal alien, welcome! Yeah, I'm sure it's a pain in the arse, dealing with immigration people. Like the TSA, I'm quite sure it attracts people who desire authority. There are probably plenty of freaks working in the system.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @02:05PM (29 children)
Due process? Fuck you, you got a legal document!
Privacy? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to drive somewhere.
Secure in your persons and effects? AND you want to prove who you are?
It's part of what makes the American immigration enforcement regime so fucking stupid. Because it's a 110% victim-less crime, literally the only way to ever find your "criminals" is to investigate every fucking person unreasonably.
Having rights is mutually exclusive to having a right wing.
(Score: 3, Informative) by hemocyanin on Monday July 08 2019, @03:34PM (28 children)
I don't disagree with you on the privacy side, but illegal immigration is not victimless. For example, real wages of construction workers in LA are about five inflation adjusted dollars lower today than in the 70s, and while the article tries to make it about racism somehow, the business math is crystal clear: imported labor works cheap and make union busting easy.
https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-construction-trump/ [latimes.com]
So if you care about the economic health of your fellow Americans, illegal immigration is NOT a victimless crime. Illegal immigration is the 1% answer to jobs that can't be offshored.
(Score: 2, Troll) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @04:14PM (27 children)
That'd be not bullshit if there was a strong correlation between wages and latinx population.
if you'll forgive some original synthesis [governing.com] between these two sources [wikipedia.org]
I plugged them into excel, the 2016 numbers have a positive correlation. More latinx people, the higher the average pay. You're lying your ass off.
You know what does predict working class wages? Union membership, and the absence of anti-union laws.
So, not only are you a fucking monster, you're a monster for made up reason. Good job, loser.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday July 08 2019, @05:49PM (4 children)
If I understand you correctly, you assert that the importation of cheap labor willing to perform unionized positions for non-union pay, is not a relevant factor in union busting.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @05:56PM (3 children)
Since union jobs require legal citizens then no, illegal immigration does not hurt unions. Only certain businesses that can fly under the radar can afford to use such labor.
I'm sure it is some amount of a factor but I highly doubt it is significant and there are better solutions than violating people's privacy and committing human rights violations against children. When did "think of the children" suddenly stop mattering to conservatives? Oh right, when it became more important to PwN da LiBs and reenforce racism.
I'm sure you're tired of hearing that reasoning and automatically shut off your mind, but the truth doesn't give a shit.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday July 08 2019, @07:23PM (2 children)
But that doesn't address the issue of employers switching away from union labor. As was quoted in the LA Times article above:
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:52PM (1 child)
The correct response would be to investigate such employers and levy some hefty fines that make sure they hire legal employees. Ramping up border police does not help as so many studies have shown.
Instead of taking the authoritarian punitive approach perhaps it would be better to realize that the US intentionally fucked up South America and should be taking a humane approach to illegal immigrants instead of a militaristic one. Human rights violations are not protected by "they're illegal MAGA!"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:13AM
Why would not the even more correct response be to prosecute employers and secure the border?
This open immigration issue the Demorcrats have taken up is pretty interesting in that they are adopting a hard Libertarian position on the topic. There is also the issue that in the business class, many of whom are Republicans, there has not been much desire to do things that would reduce the labor pool, being anti-union and all that, and so the employer-enforcement side doesn't get the attention it perhaps deserves. In any event, as it appears the bipartisan consensus amongst the Rockefeller Republicans ("RR") and Neoliberal Democrats ("ND") (aka friends of the 1%) is that we need an influx of migrants, I suspect that is what will shall have. The really clever part though is the marketing which is taking off even with the non-neolib types. Anyone who exhibits any economic nationalism is instantly branded a nazi, and thus RRs and NDs have convinced the new-left -- the people who now see last century liberals such as myself (anti-war, anti-offshoring, anti-authoritarian, pro-worker, pro-whoYouLoveIsYourBusiness) as the enemy -- to get on board with this policy.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @06:07PM (10 children)
If we are to believe you at all, then you forgot to adjust your dollars to 1970's dollars. FFS, in the '70's entry level janitors made $20 at union jobs. Today's median has gone DOWN? Without even adjusting for inflation?
Go back and do the math, and try to remember basic economics lessons.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 1, Troll) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:13PM (9 children)
What the ever loving fuck is wrong with your incredibly fucked up brain?
No you clearly don't understand me at all, because the retarded spew coming from your shitty maw has jack and shit to do with the statistics I posted, you vile, retarded monkey of a person.
Goddamn I cannot fathom what it's like to be both so incapable of the most basic reading comprehension and so disgustingly amoral. It's gotta be so terrible to be you.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @07:25PM (8 children)
You posted no "statistics". You posted something of a chart, which displays the fact that some states have a higher cost of living than other states. You posted no statistics in regard to the number of illegal aliens living in California in the 1970's, and the prevailing wages then, compared to the number of illegals today, and today's prevailing wages. Had you done so, then adjusted those 1970's dollars into current dollars, it would be more than obvious that increased illegals correlate with decreased wages.
So, you've completely given up on rational discussion, and choose to spew your hatred instead. Racist hatred at that. Monkey? I'm quite certain that I've been hated on in the past for using that word, "monkey". DAS RACISS!!!
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 1, Troll) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:28PM (7 children)
You're not black, shut the fuck up.
"You didn't post statistics, you just posted a pair of tables of organized structured data"
Instead, I would like you to seriously consider eating a baker's dozen bullets.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 08 2019, @09:30PM (6 children)
Hate. Pure hatred. And, you presume to lecture me on racism and other silly shit. Whatever.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @11:48PM
It's OK, I still hate you, Runaway, you unreconstructed racist bastard! Why, you probably are not even a real American! Polack, brought over by your parents while still a child? Who then left you behind for reasons apparent to everybody. Never bothered to fill out the naturalization forms? Illegal Runaway! No wonder he runs away.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday July 09 2019, @08:21PM (4 children)
Yes, I do, because, as I've said, you are a fucking monster. Don't you fucking forget it.
Don't you pretend that "Oh that guy he's just angry and lecturing me over nothing". The "hate" I have for you is the same "hate" I'd have for a convicted murderer. Except they usually repent.
It's crucial, if you ever want to even pretend you're a decent person again, that right now, you acknowledge you're evil.
In the calmest of mood, in the clearest of thought, I cannot fathom a world where you deserve anything but an eternity in hell.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 09 2019, @11:44PM (3 children)
*yawn*
You cannot fathom. That is your own personal shortcoming, and nothing to do with me. Thus, I have no need to pretend anything.
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday July 10 2019, @12:29AM (2 children)
Yeah, like I said you'd file me in a box you've labeled "angry" so you don't have to confront your role in history as a villain.
I can't control you or make you have a moment's introspection, but I can believe quite firmly that you'll die alone and unloved.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 10 2019, @12:33AM (1 child)
Funny you should mention history. Have you ever studied it? No - I'm not asking if you've passed your high school and junior college courses. The question is, "Have you studied history?"
I said what I said. - Sophie Cunningham
(Score: 1) by Arik on Thursday July 11 2019, @07:25AM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:01PM (7 children)
You have cause and effect exactly backwards.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:21PM (6 children)
No, not really. The a fairly robust actual predictor of number of people of latin origin in a state is: whether the state was once part of the country Mexico.
I know you have to invent a racist fiction for every goddamn thing or else possibly confront the fact that you are a racist. But don't take profound and direct contravening evidence of a lying racist narrative, and make a new lying racist narrative to paper over it.
You could be... like... a human being with a shred of decency instead?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @09:40PM (5 children)
Racist? That's your most intelligent response, go to racism? So, because somewhere / sometime there has been racism, and you state "racism", therefore everything you believe and rant and tirade on on about is universal truth, correct? You're so upset you aren't even a little rational. I feel badly for people like you- you've been lied to so much, and you eat drink and sleep those lies, and they enrage you, and it's all lies. Get out and get involved in the real world and turn off your idiotic sources of "news" and misinformation.
You stated:"That'd be not bullshit if there was a strong correlation between wages and latinx population."
BUT THEN: "I plugged them into excel, the 2016 numbers have a positive correlation. More latinx people, the higher the average pay."
1) Either I'm misreading and misunderstanding you, which is quite possible, or, you're contradicting yourself.
2) You're the one who made the distinction re: "latinx" people. And I'm not going to call you "racist" because categorizing people by race is NOT racism. How you use that information could be.
My point was, from basic economics, if there is high demand for a specific type of labor, the wages will rise. Right? Econ 101. My point was (and is) that the demand will draw people in. Look at engineering, IT, technology in general: corporations "outsource" as much as bring in H1-B, and people generally flock in to the US to fill those higher demand higher pay jobs.
But, economics is not a freeze-frame- it's an ever changing dynamic. As more people, legal or illegal (migrants) flock in to fill certain job types, the average wage will decrease. And the illegals are often relegated to the lower end jobs, so the wages drop off even more for the lower end jobs. And it's all feeding the widening gap of wealth and standard of living in the US.
I think you're so caught up in, and enraged by, tiny microcosms and details that you're just not putting it all together.
Here's a question to ponder: why do these "migrants" want to come to the US? Does the "shred of decency" you think you espouse include feeling badly that their country of origin is so bad that they're willing to lose everything, even their lives in a dangerous journey?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @09:59PM (4 children)
Go easy on Ikanread -- he or she is 19-24yo, out of his/her safe space, and obviously triggered by being asked to defend his/her ideas in a logical fashion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @11:04PM (3 children)
Wow, firstly, thank you. I wasn't trying to be so hard- didn't know I was that good! I usually shy away from these discussions. I hate that people get so polarized and narrow-minded and knickers all bunched up. And I especially hate that much of the problem is based in media bias, lies, half-truths, spin, slant, etc. There's so much more to life, and all of these powderkeg situations have many hidden layers that all interplay. Somewhere there are very wealthy powerful people running the show as we all bounce around entertaining them.
Ikanreed really harshly attacked some good people here. No need for that, just state your opinions, facts, observations.
Anyway, thanks for calming things. I'm not sure if your comment was a thinly-veiled insult, but I'm taking it literally and going back to being a house mouse.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:27AM (2 children)
A) I was not being sarcastic toward you, I thought your post was thoughtful and modded it up.
B) I was being sarcastic toward Ikanreed who has singlehandedly managed to bring the level of conversation here down to the level of the worst twitter has to offer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @03:10AM
Not! It was aristarchus posting under the username "Runaway1956" that hijacked the border on this one.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @03:28AM
Thank you, and I'm truly honored.
I can be as sarcastic / sardonic as anyone, but I almost never do it online unless I spell it out. The problem with sarcasm is that it depends on something being obvious, but not everyone sees things the same way, so sometimes sarcasm is completely misinterpreted. We've even invented "wooosh". I'm sure you knew all of that, but I spelled it out for others, and so that you know that I know (that you know that I know...)
Yeah, Ikanreed is usually a good contributor to discussions, but (s)he really went bonkers here. In fact I rarely post AC unless I have a wisecrack I can't contain but don't want attributed to me, unless people think it's funny then I wish I could grab ownership.
This whole thing has certainly been an enthusiastic discussion (that I don't have time for anyway...)
Thanks again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:41PM (1 child)
excel? stupid fuck confirmed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @10:36PM
Next he'll find out that Excel files are just zip archives.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:31AM
Shibboleth: you misspelled "latino".
People who aren't Spanish speakers probably didn't catch ikanreed's insanity on this little message he snuck in by writing "latinx", but it is analogous to writing "womyn".
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @02:48PM (1 child)
Drivers licenses document that a state has granted permission to operate a vehicle. They do not shield from law enforcement agencies investigating crime.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:18PM
Yep, which is why every single innocent citizen who committed no crime is also being scanned, and the records already show the feds have been witholding evidence of large numbers of false positive matches on this exact program.
Good job. You sure showed those damned illegals by giving away our rights.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by TheFool on Monday July 08 2019, @02:48PM
Presumably, some of you remember the Real ID Act [wikipedia.org]. It was passed in the hysteria around 9/11, and one of the things it mandated was that all state DMVs have a remotely accessible database of photos. Prior to that, this database didn't have to be remotely accessible, it didn't have to be digital, and some states didn't have one. Many states had privacy concerns over the act, but of course, the majority of the union went along with it because it was easy. So ultimately the rest of us were coerced into adopting the standards by fun things like "the TSA won't let you board a plane with a non-compliant ID", because that kind of bullying is acceptable against the minority.
Anyway, it's kind of interesting to watch the "tinfoil hat" predictions come true one after another. I wonder which ones we'll find true in another 15 years.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Freeman on Monday July 08 2019, @03:17PM (12 children)
On one hand, I really don't like the possible invasion of privacy issue here. On the other hand, these are undocumented illegal residents. Who Very likely don't have insurance and won't be purchasing insurance for the vehicle they drive.
You don't want to be arrested and deported by ICE? Do it the legal way. The same goes for US citizens immigrating to other countries. This is basic national security.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @03:37PM (7 children)
One is MUCH scarier than the other, you really shouldn't be conflicted. For the party of limited government you sure are timid about thst gov body snatching people and going all "papers ease."
It is depressing for the rest of us to watch the country slide into fascism with every hallmark just right in front for everyone to see.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday July 08 2019, @03:59PM (6 children)
The "MUCH" scarier thing you're talking about is already happening. I'm not even sure, it's something we don't want law enforcement to be able to do. Yes, more technology, means things like facial recognition are possible, but that doesn't mean it has to be used for bad things. More effectively catching criminals, isn't a bad thing.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @05:58PM
His larger point is more to the arguments made by the "you have nothing to worry if you have nothing to hide" crowd, which is about as un-American as you can get. We fought a war and declared our independence from this kind of stuff.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @05:59PM
*wooooosh*
I think calling you a sheep person would be the most accurate thing I've done today. Your logic just boggles the mind.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:14PM (3 children)
Because false positives never happen, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:01PM (2 children)
I know, right?
When do we get around to disbanding the police force so we can all be SAFE?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @12:35AM (1 child)
Yeah! Having them hang out in Starbucks [nytimes.com] makes me feel unsafe!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:28AM
Just let the cops hang out in their OWN, SEPARATE coffee shops.
Downmarket Dunkin' Donuts for the piggies, fancy Starbucks for the foreigners and queers.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @07:25PM (3 children)
I cannot think of a more certain way go guarantee that undocumented people drive unlicensed and uninsured than arresting all the ones who follow the legal processes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:03PM (2 children)
I can not think of a better way to encourage ID theft than to allow illegal immigrants to live here.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @08:20PM (1 child)
That's because you're a moron who cannot think at all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @01:33AM
Get a life.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @03:49PM (8 children)
Obvious shit, but the Left has gone full retard, so they need it pointed out to their law breaking asses.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @06:01PM (7 children)
Awww Mr. SockPuppet is upvoting his stupid shit again. Fertilizer of hatred, guess it can't survive without a human to carefully tend to its black blossoms.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @07:45PM (6 children)
and he doesn't like being called out, awwwwww
how many accounts you pupeteering these days?
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday July 08 2019, @08:23PM (5 children)
Dunno, but they're also wasting a fuck ton of mod points on me today. It's amazing the way ... certain people... thing manipulating scores is going to make me think it's an unreasonable opinion that concentration camp apologists are human scum.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @08:40PM (4 children)
They aren't trying to convince you, they are trying to make it appear as if their world view has more supporters than it really does. Then again I wouldn't put it past quite a few of the prolific users around here to mod up that kind of posting.
Runaway's unhinged replies make it clear that they will take us into civil war before addressing their own failures.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @10:04PM (3 children)
You are right on part 1, not trying to convince Ikanread of anything, but wrong on part 2. People are modding Ikanread down because arguments along the lines of "swear, cuss, insult, cuss, swear, insult" -- aren't arguments, they're mere expressions of childish rage.
Also, I am not Runaway.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 08 2019, @11:54PM (2 children)
I am also not Runaway. Ikanread's "swear, cuss, insult, cuss, swear, insult" is called for, when people are defending concentration camps. People are modding him down because they are Nazi snowflakes, scared to death of "immigrants" and "liberals". Sad, really.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @12:50AM (1 child)
This discussion is so godwinned its ridiculous. It's douple-plus-hyperbolic to compare what's going on to gas chambers and nazis without even giving a nod to the fact that there are downsides to open borders. Here's an example of how reasoned argument might look, taken from an article written by a Canadian Anthropologist (so probably not a "nazi" *eyeroll*): https://zeroanthropology.net/2016/12/26/open-borders-global-citizenship-and-the-working-class/ [zeroanthropology.net]
The discussion centers on a book by Andrew Kipnis in which Kipnis advocates for open borders:
So clearly Kipnis is also not a nazi. You can agree to that right? Even so, Kipnis is capable of recognizing there are costs:
Counterpoint:
Rebuttal:
Notice the issue discussion in the article did not go like this:
* Open boards gooood.
- Maybe not.
* You're a nazi.
- Except it has this cost.
* YOU ARE AN INFINITY NAZI!!!!
... because that's not argument. That's just being childish and moronic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09 2019, @03:13AM
Fucking nazi! We are going to have to facial you!