Billionaire industrialist David H. Koch, who with his older brother Charles was both celebrated and demonized for transforming American politics by pouring their riches into conservative causes, died Friday at 79.
The cause of death was not disclosed, but Koch Industries said Koch, who lived in New York City, had contended for years with various illnesses, including prostate cancer.
https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/23/ap-source-billionaire-david-koch-has-died-at-age-79/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/us/david-koch-dead.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-koch-died-conservative-donor-and-philanthropist-dead-age-79-2019-08-23/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/23/david-koch-dies-billionaire-leader-koch-industries-79/2094016001/
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What started it all:
On 2019-08-24 13:02:01 UTC an accusation (https://soylentnews.org/meta/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33244&page=1&cid=884682#commentwrap) was made that a Journal Entry "It would have been posted before 6 hours ago" (i.e. posted at approximately 2019-08-24 07:00:00 UTC) was deleted by a member of the staff at SoylentNews. The circumstances surrounding the making of the Journal Entry are elaborated upon in this comment. (https://soylentnews.org/meta/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33244&page=1&cid=885191#commentwrap)
I have been with this site since before it went live. Its founding principal has been the making available of a forum whereby the community can submit stories — and post comments — to predominantly tech-related items. Further, each logged-in user has been made available the ability to post entries to their Journal.
As Editor-in-Chief I took this allegation seriously and performed an independent and in-depth investigation. My findings are presented below.
Note: It is not lost on me the futility of trying to prove a negative. It is for good reason that the criminal justice system in the US is founded on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty." It is not up the the accused to vindicate themselves, but for the accuser to bring sufficient evidence to bring about conviction.
NB: In the course of writing this, I discovered a bug in how the site displays wide elements contained in an ECODE element. It incorrectly wraps the text onto the next line (leading to a jumbled mess) when it should, instead, provide horizontal scroll bars. Please accept my apologies for its current appearance.
Executive Summary:
An in-depth investigation making use of: external resources, the UI presented by SoylentNews, and ad-hoc queries of the site database (DB) failed to locate a "smoking gun", i.e. found no clear proof that a Journal Entry was posted to the site and subsequently deleted by anyone other than an author.
It is my estimation that the user submitted an entry, but the site failed to receive and save it correctly. In other words, the user tripped over some kind of bug be it in the site's code, communications between the user and the site, or something else.
Recommendation: When a user completes making a Journal Entry and submits it to the site, the code should respond by using the newly-created journal parameters in conjunction with the normal journal-loading code to present the Journal Entry to the user as confirmation that the entry was properly received and saved. That is to say, affirmative feedback of receipt, storage, and accessibility of the Journal Entry.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:31AM (7 children)
Please spare me all the "legacy" bullshit, and I'll just pass here.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:51AM (6 children)
Sucks to be you, doesn't it?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:58AM (5 children)
Sucks more to be him. Pascal's wager: live your life righteously, and miss out on the Epstein action// or be evil and have to face justice in the afterlife. If there is a god, David is fucked, and not just royally fucked, but divinely fucked with unimaginable punishment for eternity, involving oil pipelines and paper cuts. The Horror, the Horror!
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:53PM (2 children)
Or live your life righteously and still face judgment for all those people you had a chance to proselytize but failed to. Some Christian denominations cite Ezekiel 33:1-9 [biblehub.com] for what will happen to people who refuse to warn others about what is to come.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:23PM (1 child)
I would question why this all-powerful god is unable to pass on his own damn message.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 25 2019, @05:31PM
Because if you do the research you'll find out he's just one of the ancient-Near-Eastern pantheon, that Judaism has been essentially reworked Zoroastrianism since the Exile, and that if this Yahweh character actually exists, by definition he *can't* be God since he doesn't posses the properties a being *must* possess in order to *be* God.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:22PM (1 child)
Pascal's wager assumes God is good. I see no evidence of that. If he existed, I would love to point out all the hypocrisy he's engaged in over the ages, as well as actions that are as bad as anything any human being has ever done.
Love isn't conditional, but it's that way with Christianity - love Jeebus or go to hell. I treat my dogs with more respect than that.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 25 2019, @07:00AM
A jew, a holocaust survivor who managed to live to be an old man, dies and goes to heaven.
He meets God, and tells God a joke about something that happened while he was in a concentration camp.
God replies, "That's not funny."
The Jewish man says, "I guess you had to be there."
(Score: 5, Insightful) by J053 on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:37AM (4 children)
(Score: 4, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:52AM (1 child)
So when is Soros gonna die? Hopefully soon, now that the organ and stem cell-harvesting labs in the subterranean caverns on Epstein's island have been buried in concrete.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:38AM
The bags under his eyes were already fully depleted of stem cells last time he was pictured in public, he doesn't have long left!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:39AM
except will the David Loch Fund for blahs blahs continue to be a major contributor to Nova on PBS? Or has the Draper Lab taken over that role?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:38PM
I would not be surprised if in his will he wants a funeral pyre made from an old tire dump - and then his estate claiming tax credits for recycling and "clean energy
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:41AM
koch_bros_deaths++
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:49AM (10 children)
Where do I go to piss on his grave?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:56AM (1 child)
Not sure you'd make it through security, but if you did the woman operating the x-ray would laugh at the inferior size of your penis and tell all her friends that she had to ask her boss for a magnifying glass.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:08AM
I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is the size of my bladder. Regardless,
"piss on his grave" is the nicest thing I can say in polite company.
I was really thinking of a big fat dump ... lit on fire.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:04AM
Take a ticket.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:58AM (5 children)
-- David Koch.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:34AM (4 children)
Oh, such pretty words!
Too bad actions speak louder than words.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:42AM (3 children)
Such as?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:41PM (2 children)
Such as - investing 14 BILLION dollars in the overthrow of a legitimately elected government, so that he and his brother could install their own fascist, but profitable, regime. If you kept up with current events, you would know all about Ukraine.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:31PM (1 child)
You are such a weird dichotomy. Hateful stupid garbage one minute, critical thinking freedom lover the next. Propaganda is a hell of a drug ruining more of our society than Fentanyl!
PS: liberals don't hate all conservatives, just the anti-human ones. One of my good friends is a conservative ;)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 25 2019, @02:15AM
The weird dichotomy you speak of is American politics. The left isn't left, the right is less right than the left, identity politics pressures every group to hate every other group, on and on it goes.
Me? I'm the moderate, remember? If one or more of my position seems crazy to you, it's probably because you're way out left, or way out right.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:41PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by PinkyGigglebrain on Saturday August 24 2019, @12:58AM (2 children)
I might have asked if I was a bad person because my first thought after reading the headline was a gleeful "YES!!!!!". Only other time that has happened was when Scalia died.
But honestly I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about my reaction to this.
Given what he did in his life I can only hope that there is a place in Hells suitable for him and his brother.
The Yama may have to create a new one just for them.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:13AM
When I saw the headline I screamed "YES!!" uncontrollably.
I had mixed feelings on Scalia. At least he wasn't a convicted (in the court of public opinion) rapist.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:46AM
I'm saving that reaction for Rachel Maddow, Colbert, and Bill Nye.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:06AM
Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js [youtube.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:12AM (5 children)
He's dead. *Good.* Now hopefully his brother follows along, joined shortly by all the swamp monsters who've ruined this country.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:32AM (2 children)
Looks like Ginsburg is going first.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:42PM
There are rumors that she has already died. They prop her corpse up in front of a camera now and then, to prevent Trump appointing her replacement.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:46PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:37AM
Trump has shown both parties for what they are, big hot air phonies. This one was #2 George Soros is #1. Both playing muck racking politics and playing us for fools. I watched them co-opt the tea party and the occupy movement for their own agendas.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 25 2019, @07:03AM
You misunderstand how it works. The snake has many heads. Cut one off and another moves up to take its place.
(Score: 2, Touché) by fustakrakich on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:30AM (2 children)
Wait until you see his replacement!
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:35AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:50PM
Are you saying south park was wrong and it was Judaism not Mormonism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBIm1zKhW4 [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:47AM (1 child)
...may nobody important gloat about yours in your time.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:18AM
"I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction."
that quote says it all.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:56AM (23 children)
A guy with political beliefs you don't agree with dies and you're all "Whoo hoo!" "Yay" "Where is he buried so I can piss on his grave?".
Can't wait for a Clinton to die and see you same assholes wondering how dare people "Whoo hoo!" "Yay", and "Where is s/he buried so I can piss on the grave".
It was a once in a lifetime experience. Which means I'll never do it again.
(Score: 5, Informative) by TheGratefulNet on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:15AM (8 children)
its WAY WAY more than 'just a guy we all disagreed with'.
usage of the word 'evil' is discouraged, as its a rather simplistic idea, but this guy has his picture in the dictionary when you look up the word 'evil'.
the world is a better place for him NOT being alive in it.
its hard to describe the total amount of damage he and his family have done to the world.
he can rot in hell. in fact, hell is too good for him.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:23AM
John Birch Society. JBS. His father. Think about it. Evil? We're not talking Google, here.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:02AM (2 children)
I don't miss him either. But the Koch brothers and others like them aren't the root of the problem. It's all those minions who empower them. Big bosses would get nowhere if it weren't for all the wealth worshipping fools whose aspiration in life is to be a rich and powerful man's poodle. The minions will find another master to whip and beat the laziness out of them, and tell them the lies they like to hear. There's an endless supply of wannabe big men.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:43AM (1 child)
well how much Georgia Pacific wood and paper products are in your house? That's the real empowerment we inadvertently have all given them over the years.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:30PM
Exactly. I don't know what the answer is yet though, other than moving into a barrel to live, like Diogenes the Dog (these days you'd keep getting "moved along" if not arrested). Not having any kids is a start.
"rancid randy has a dialogue with herself[...] Somebody help him!" -- Anonymous Coward.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:00AM (2 children)
I notice nobody tries to describe - perhaps they don't actually know? No "total amount of damage" is complete without the other side of the balance sheet, such as being a huge employer, providing valuable resources to society, and for SN, providing considerable support to freedom-seeking viewpoints in society.
Then again, I don't know much about the guy, maybe you should actually talk about this evil sometime?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:19PM (1 child)
You have opinions and "detailed" info on everything but somehow you don't know much about the Koch bros?
Fucking lawl, conservatives getting all upset that people are glad this evil twat is gone.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:46PM
Is this supposed to be a quote or a "scare" quote? Because it's not a quote. And if it's a scare quote, then it means nothing since nobody is claiming any sort sort of detail here.
I guess they would just appalled at the ignorance displayed. I know I am.
(Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Saturday August 24 2019, @06:26PM
Actually Charles Koch wore a Darth Vader outfit to work one halloween [gizmodo.com] just to trigger people that thought about him this way.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:31AM
I'm gloating because he and his brother are huge leftie shitbirds.
Libertarianism is just a leftist heresy but just as left as any of the lefties.
The Koch brothers are one of the biggest funders of NPR and similar liberal shitbag propaganda machines.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:36AM (4 children)
We're not criticizing his words or his beliefs. We're criticizing his ACTIONS. We're still allowed to do that, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:42AM
Who are you and what have you done with the real DeathMonkey ?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:50AM (2 children)
Would you like to do so? With some specificity? Not just old dead man bad? Please?
What did he do that was so wrong?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:46PM (1 child)
Investing 14 BILLION dollars in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, so he and his brother could install their own fascist regime. No other deeds needed to justify hatred for a man - that one is more than enough.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:32PM
I never heard he was involved in that.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:20AM (1 child)
Original anonymous coward here. You seem to think it's Koch vs. Clintons. It isn't, but it's how MSM wants you to see things.
The truth is they are both evil self serving short sighted deluded egomaniacs, selling the country part and parcel.
Their methods are different but they both hate the citizenry.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by deimtee on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:48AM
They don't hate the citizenry. That would be like you hating the worms in your garden. They see you as a useful resource most of time, but they won't hesitate to squash you when you get in the way. Or to put a hook through you when they go fishing. You don't matter enough to be hated.
200 million years is actually quite a long time.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 24 2019, @01:44PM
Good observation. Except for me, of course. I'll feel the exact same way about her death, if I live long enough to read about it. That old crone will probably outlive me, though.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:11PM (1 child)
It's not simply political beliefs. He went out of his way to throw money at any moron with a degree able to throw an air of intellectualism on his fucked up notions, and took advantage of disturbing loopholes in American tax law to not only get tax writeoffs for doing so, but pass money to his kids tax-free doing so.
Or, more plainly: he set out to benefit from poisoning the well of public discourse. He tried to make it impossible to have reasoned and honest discussions about government (or society, or the environment, or commerce). He certainly succeeded in making it harder, and his kids are richer for it.
For that, he gets the same in death from me as he got in life: awe at the potential of his wealth, and contempt for what he chose to piss it away on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @06:45PM
"and took advantage of disturbing loopholes in American tax law to not only get tax writeoffs for doing so, but pass money to his kids tax-free doing so."
oh the horror! only idiots, whores and traitors pay the income tax.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:49PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:27PM
I can see you, in the long past, saying apologizing words after Hitler died. How touching.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:52PM
The level of hatred for the Kochs doesn't even come close to the insanity you RWNJs have for the Clintons. I won't shed a tear when the Clintons pass on, but I fully expect worse vitriol from you loons.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:22AM (2 children)
It's not as if his fortune or plans suddenly vanished. His wealth will go to those who will continue to pursue the same goals.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday August 24 2019, @03:09AM (1 child)
Maybe. The second or third generation often develop a bit of conscience...or at least ape that in their actions.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday August 29 2019, @01:41AM
More likely the next generation looks at all the money dad wasted on 'causes' and considers that they can spend the remaining loot a lot more sensibly, such as on themselves.
Whether that's better than spending it all on 'causes' no doubt depends if one agrees with said causes.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:32AM (1 child)
This is ground control to Major Tom.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:22PM
Major Tom has a Koch.
(Score: 4, Touché) by ilPapa on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:37AM (2 children)
It is a good day when God takes David Koch and saves Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:51PM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:40PM
Maybe he allowed his staying as a punishment for the sinners.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by EJ on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:43AM (3 children)
The 0.1% are getting really old. They'll pretty much all die off in my lifetime or lose their fortunes (I'm still hoping Facebook implodes and Zuck ends up homeless).
A post-Bezos world will be pretty nice. Here's to hoping everything these people built will be torn down (like the Berlin wall) before the dirt hits their coffins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:57PM (2 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:54PM
Had a friend who had to turn on Alexa to turn off the lights. Peak stupid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 25 2019, @07:07AM
It is always a joy to discover one more sane person in the world.
Thank you for that post. I feel less lonely now.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:07AM (32 children)
Maybe that's not all he did but that's what I remember him for.
Why are all you assholes shitting on his grave?
Shame on you.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by EJ on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:20AM (3 children)
Liberals are not rational people.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:22AM (2 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by EJ on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:28AM (1 child)
I'm sure that one good police officer thinks the same way you do.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:29AM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:38AM (9 children)
"Why are all you assholes shitting on his grave?"
He was one bad hombre!
Citizens united, privatized public schooling and fracking just off the top of my head. In case you need me to elaborate this translates to, fuck speech, meritocracy and ground water.
"He spent a lot of money he could have spent on making himself richer, to encourage political engagement among marginalized communities."
Political investment has the *best* return on investment compared to other things you can do with your money when you are filthy rich, look it up.
That money WAS spent on making himself richer!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday August 24 2019, @05:43AM
Nonetheless, I thank you for explicating it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:09AM (7 children)
So... protection of the First Amendment, getting grotesquely incompetent governments out of schooling, and boosting the US economy, while simultaneously reducing its carbon footprint due to increased natural gas production. Assuming we can blame him for those things in the first place.
Looks like you got those backwards.
I have. I also have yet to find anything more substantial than what you wrote above. Keep in mind some of these "political investments" would decrease substantially barrier to entry for competitors to the Kochs and actually have negative return on investment.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:42PM (1 child)
Citizens United has nothing to do with the first amendment. The first amendment only applies to interactions between people and the government. Corporations are not people. They are comprised of people that never gave up their rights to give money or engage in free speech.
What's more giving money isn't speech. At this point it is nearly improved to be convicted of bribery because of the judges that the Koch. Brothers had appointed.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:13PM
It's always interesting how dishonest people can get - here, deciding what free speech isn't really free speech. The obvious rebuttal here is that if you speak on behalf of a soulless corporation, you are engaging in free speech. Despite your claims to the contrary, it remains that the campaign finance law in question did violate the First Amendment rights of the people who comprise the corporation.
Giving money for speech in an election. Not only is it a matter of free speech, it's a matter of the most vital exercise of free speech.
But perhaps I'm thinking about this wrong? Perhaps, your speech isn't really free speech, but rather a noisy sucking of air, and the First Amendment doesn't really apply to those who disagree with me?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:02PM (2 children)
"So... protection of the First Amendment, getting grotesquely incompetent governments out of schooling, and boosting the US economy"
Since you aren't the only person with such short sighted beliefs, allow me to elaborate some more.
First Amendment applying to corporations has all sorts of problems for all sorts of reasons, and would take up a whole textbook which I'm sure exists, but one implication is a foreign government (say the Russians) can meddle in US elections, in ways you can't imagine, ... legally. It's already happening, but I'm talking about something far more sinister than direct contributions into crony politicians pockets. I'm talking a corporate shell game for propaganda.
The incompetent government trope is getting old. Move to Somalia if you want to live in a place with effectively no government. Ironic how people pushing this trope want more government when it comes to enforcing contracts and protecting their wealth from the disgruntled masses.
Boosting the US economy by poisoning the wells is insane. The economic boost is temporary, the poisoned wells are long term. You can't live without water, it's projected to be a scarce resource. In many parts of the world it already is. Nestle is investing a fortune in attempts to buy up this resource. You're saying lets just destroy it to boost the economy, a fictitious construct which only benefits a tiny minority.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday August 24 2019, @06:55PM
But why think long term survival when you can have short-term "I got MINE!"
THAT is the way the rich and corporate/political leaders in America think.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 25 2019, @01:36AM
Which really doesn't matter much. There's a lot of woo attributed to "meddling", but it's really good for relieving someone of their money.
Apathy solves that non problem.
Air is a scarce resource too. But we're not running out of it either.
Buy from who?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @04:22PM (1 child)
Delusional
Or brainwashed, but I guess they're sort of the same thing. It does sadden me that part of the problem these days is that reasonably sane people fall for evil power grubbing propaganda.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 26 2019, @04:55AM
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:39AM (16 children)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/A_Maze_of_Money.png [wikimedia.org]
Koch brothers did this shit. Fuck them with a broom stick.
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-hate-koch-brothers-part-1/ [freakonomics.com]
Reading that, you realize the guy is either completely fucking clueless or lying through his teeth. He says one thing and then does the fucking opposite.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-164403/ [rollingstone.com]
The devil himself would lie less convincingly than Koch brothers. Fuck, they even swindled out their brothers from the business. Tells you something about their disloyalty. It's all about money and more more more.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:20AM (14 children)
So what? The only real problem illustrated there is that these industries are under one company rather than spread among many lesser companies. Otherwise you're just comparing properties proportional to the size of the company (that is, "extrinsic properties") without considering the size of the company. Nor are we considering the harm of the pollution. So what if a bigger company pollutes more than a smaller company? That tells you little about whether the pollution is inordinately harmful or not, or even whether it's worse or better given the productive output of the companies in question.
Million tons of valuable petrochemicals? Even the environmentalists have to mention the benefits every now and then.
They still have to follow regulations too.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday August 24 2019, @07:10PM (13 children)
If you found out that a Koch industry had polluted the ground, water and air on your property and you now had untreatable cancer because of it, would out just say "Meh...they got theirs. Good for them!" Because THAT is what is happening: people polluting the planet we live on just in order to make another dollar, and FUCK YOU, I GOT MINE!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 24 2019, @10:57PM
We've been telling this to khallow for literal years. Not sure if anything can penetrate his ideology.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:16PM (11 children)
Actually, no that isn't not what happened. Hypothetical, remember? And I can always sue them for that along with the rest of the people on my side of the class action lawsuit.
Polluting how much? There's this peculiar lack of details.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday August 24 2019, @11:47PM (10 children)
go "lalala I can't hear anything"
https://theintercept.com/2015/08/11/dupont-chemistry-deception/ [theintercept.com]
DuPont scientists had closely studied the chemical for decades and through their own research knew about some of the dangers it posed. Yet rather than inform workers, people living near the plant, the general public, or government agencies responsible for regulating chemicals, DuPont repeatedly kept its knowledge secret.
Another revelation about C8 makes all of this more disturbing and gives the upcoming trials, the first of which will be held this fall in Columbus, Ohio, global significance: This deadly chemical that DuPont continued to use well after it knew it was linked to health problems is now practically everywhere. Emphasis is mine.
That IS WHAT IS HAPPENING... NOT hypothetical.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 25 2019, @01:48AM (6 children)
The catch is in what dose? Remember dose makes the poison. There are a lot of toxins that are practically everywhere. But they aren't everywhere in concentrations that can kill.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday August 25 2019, @01:58AM (5 children)
The point is, the company KNEW they were poisoning the environment and even after people's cattle died from drinking it in the water and eating it in their food, and after people turned up with cancer CAUSED by the C8, they covered it up and kept doing it because of the Dollars they were making.
They DID kill people, knew they were doing it and covered it up...ALL to continue making money.
And you have no problem with this???
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 25 2019, @03:14AM (4 children)
I'll note in that case, the cattle deaths (see here [nytimes.com] for a description) look suspiciously like antifreeze poisoning right up to the dyes showing up in the tissue of the cows (which incidentally may not be DuPont caused). And if that was the way C8 poisoned animals, it would never have survived so many decades without toxicity testing.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday August 25 2019, @10:38AM (3 children)
Unbelievable.
DuPont and 3M's OWN testing showed it was cancerous and was causing deformaties and death, and that they HID this from the EPA. THEIR OWN TESTING!
AND STILL they dumped it: in the water and land and air.
Read the emails.
OR, close your eyes.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:53AM (2 children)
In what dosage?
(Score: 3, Touché) by Gaaark on Sunday August 25 2019, @12:50PM (1 child)
Drink a glass of it and tell me what dose you got and how you feel!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Sunday August 25 2019, @10:06PM
Are you thereby claiming that everyone is effectively exposed to a glass of C8?
(Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Sunday August 25 2019, @09:20PM (2 children)
No luck finding a Koch example? (They do exist, although their record remains better than most out of necessity, they are fully aware folks are out to get them and behave accordingly.)
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday August 25 2019, @10:06PM (1 child)
Just one example I knew about: didn't think about who caused it.
Do you have any?
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Sunday August 25 2019, @10:36PM
Off the top of my head? Maybe the Green Bay coal pile dust a few years back is the only thing that comes to mind. Probably more with some searching since there are dozens of Koch companies to chose from.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Saturday August 24 2019, @02:40PM
So they used the law to their advantage?
(Score: 3, Funny) by darkfeline on Saturday August 24 2019, @09:56AM
Thanks, I'm going to use this going forward.
"Bribery is such an ugly word. I prefer to call it encouraging political engagement among marginalized communities."
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