from the start-counting-the-pennies,-er,-yen dept.
Submitted via IRC for Bytram
Trump's 15 percent tariff on Chinese goods kicks in
It's the first day of September, marked by a new round of tariffs on Chinese imports, which went into effect Sunday. In latest escalation of the trade war with China, the Trump administration has slapped a 15% tariff on $112 billion worth of Chinese goods (PDF), something consumers can expect to feel when buying everything from milk to diapers to some China-manufactured tech products like the Apple Watch.
But on Aug. 13, the USTR said it would offer a temporary reprieve to a batch of about $160 billion products (PDF) like laptops and cellphones. Those goods won't be subject to the new tariffs until Dec. 15 -- an attempt to blunt the impact of the duties on the holiday shopping season. Trump later raised the new tariff on Chinese goods to a 15% rate rather than the initial 10%.
China retaliated Sunday with its own tariff plan taking effect at 12:01 p.m. local time. It's rolling out higher tariffs in stages on a total of about $75 billion in US goods like soybeans and crude oil. It'll also resume an extra 25% duty on cars imported from the US on Dec. 15.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:04PM (4 children)
Trump: The Chinese are paying these tariffs, not Americans.
Also Trump: Don't tariff these till after the Christmas shopping is done, as we don't want the tariffs to hurt the shopping season.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:20PM (3 children)
You mean the Chinese don't buy your Christmas gifts for you?
(Score: 4, Touché) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:10PM (2 children)
I think you are confused. His Christmas gifts are from the Russians.
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(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:34PM (1 child)
The Cold War is over, Romney. Ok doke!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday September 06 2019, @02:36PM
Yes. The Cold War is over.
That is why the US president gets all his loans from the Russians. (as disclosed by one of the moron twins in an interview)
Why the Russians give a US president gifts.
Why our president has "such warm relations" and "such good chemistry" with Vladimir. (But also with Kim Jong)
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(Score: 2, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:16PM (90 children)
As mentioned, Trump added a huge swath of goods to an exclusion list prior to this tariff going into effect that will make this a much smaller pill to swallow for the upcoming Christmas season. Products in this group include, for example, cell phones, laptop computers, video game consoles, certain toys, computer monitors, and certain items of footwear and clothing. All in all consumers will barely notice this but it definitely turns the heat up on China.
Also worth noting is that Trump made a trade deal with Japan's Prime Minister Abe at the G7 meeting to purchase a lot of the agricultural produce that China originally signed an agreement to purchase and then backed out on. Trump also entered into a trade deal with Brazil to buy our ethanol, further helping US farmers.
And lastly, remember that tariffs are basically revenue to the government and can help pay subsidies that go out to farmers. It's pretty much a win for the US.
You can hate Trump all you want as a person, lots of people do, but he's making all the right moves to improve the US economy. He's not a likeable person but he's a shrewd businessman.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:22PM (22 children)
It's not like an experiment of this sort has never been done before. How did the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act work out? Let's see ... yes, Smoot-Hawley put the Great in the Great Depression.
Make Depression Great Again!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:14PM (21 children)
Smoot-Hawley didn't cause the great depression. It certainly didn't help, but it's not the reason it happened. And there's a huge difference between high tariffs on ALL trade and balanced trade. Currently we're engaged in evening out the imbalance with China while at the same time other nations are profiting from increased trade with the US. The idea is to profit from our goods, pay as little as possible for the other guys stuff, and make as much as possible right here at home where everyone wins.
Our economy is currently booming, and the only thing that can stand in it's way is if the federal reserve intentionally kicks it in the nuts by increasing the rate again when they should be lowering it. Remember, they held it at a whipping 0% for the duration of Obama's 8 year term. They didn't raise it until 2 years into Trump's term because they wanted to cash in on the economy. Now, as elections approach, watch to see them raise it again in order to facilitate the recession that the dems have been praying for.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:44PM (12 children)
I'd say, instead, they held it at 0% until the aftershocks of Gulf War II spending finally subsided.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Informative) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:52PM (11 children)
It's been more than 25 years since the Iraq War. I guess it's just a coincidence that Trumps election marked the end of it's impact. *facepalm*
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:50PM (10 children)
Whoa - I knew it was bad, I just didn't know how bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War [wikipedia.org] - the conflict was generally acknowledged as ending in 2011.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:21PM (9 children)
That war was over the same year it started. Seems like there's a lot of kids who weren't even a twinkle in their daddy's eye at the time but the rest of us remember it.
The insurgency that filled the power gap however, because Bush screwed it up so badly, took much longer to resolve.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @12:19AM
Nothing has been resolved and the region has been horribly destabilized, which is what happens with all of these wars of aggression.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:25AM (7 children)
I have to agree with AC on that one, with the proviso that the mideast hasn't been "stable" since the fall of the Ottoman. Whatever stability Iraq had was due to Hussein's iron fist and ruthlessness, and we removed that.
(Score: 2) by The Shire on Friday September 06 2019, @12:35AM (6 children)
Oddly enough, Iraq has been relatively quiet since the "Caliphate" was eradicated. The sources of terrorism at this point are primarily those backed by Iran.
Iran was such a nice place back in the 70's.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:51AM (5 children)
Quiet and stable are quite different things. How many of us remember the book district of Baghdad, prior to the US invasion? That is long gone. As bad as Hussein was, he offered the stability to support a unique district where everything imaginable was available in the book district. Today, the city is pretty much a shambles, and you would have hell researching much of anything beyond bomb making.
(Score: 2) by The Shire on Friday September 06 2019, @04:05AM (1 child)
His time was pretty unstable as well - the war with Iran, the attack on Kuwait. And he was pretty ruthless with the Kurds. It's not entirely clear if the region is more or less stable now than it was. We just didn't hear about the internal atrocities when Hussein was there.
The real problem is we took out the wrong guy. What we should have done is ousted the Iranian government and returned it to a civilized secular nation like it was under the Sha. Iran would be a stabilizing agent in the region today had we done so.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @02:16PM
We may have different definitions of "stable". If I started listing all the things I did NOT like about Hussein, I'd be here for awhile. I really, and truly, did detest him. My feelings for him bordered on hatred, to be honest. He deserved to be killed.
But, "stability", meaning, outsiders weren't coming in and screwing with his people, was pretty good. Yeah, our government made crazy claims about Al Queda training camps and such in Iraq, but that was all bullshit. The Iran/Iraq war? Hussein disposed of a lot of people who might have challenged his rule in that war. The Kurds? That one is complicated . . . Hussein kept the Kurds down, just as all the surrounding nations did. It is noteworthy that the Kurds have been a constant thorn in the Turk's side for decades, but they were rather subdued in Iraq, until the US invaded.
For varying values of "stable", you may well argue that Hussein wasn't. But, he did offer stability to his nation, right up until he screwed the pooch by invading Kuwait. The western world actually liked seeing his antics, right up until he threatened the flow of oil.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 06 2019, @04:16AM (2 children)
Not at all.
Except freedom which is the key ingredient of any book district.
Looks like Saddam Hussein offered less stability than advertised. But at least the trains ran on time, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @06:01AM (1 child)
On the other hand, we in the US can't run a passenger train service at all anymore.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 06 2019, @09:24AM
Not that anyone was using it.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:11PM (1 child)
Do not try to explain reality to the lost. Bottom line is the US is the only country that is self sufficient. Few other countries do have same posaibility, but they rather suck IMF cock.
(Score: 3, Touché) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:31PM
Is that the same IMF set up by the US to advance the interests of the American moneyed class? Why yes. Yes it is.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:35PM (5 children)
No, *WRONG*
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html [census.gov]
But since you don't understand what this trade thing actually is .... yeah....
*WRONG*
https://data.oecd.org/leadind/composite-leading-indicator-cli.htm#indicator-chart [oecd.org]
Lowest level since massive drop in 2009. But can't argue with a Trump parrot.
US enjoyed being reserve currency status for far too long. US has been leeching the labor of the world for far too long while pushing the USD ponzi scheme. Since it wants to be protectionist, time for that to be reset. Whatever happens because of the trade war, it's on Trump and idiots like you.
(Score: 0, Troll) by curunir_wolf on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:11PM (4 children)
HAHAHA! You're a FOOL!
Globalists gotta be globalists, I guess, and are blind to local economies unless they affect the global markets.
Trump understands this, some economists understand this, but you don't. Other countries, including China, are facing economic woes. That affects US companies that are heavily entangled in global trade.
What Trump's policies are doing is encouraging investment and business growth within the US, a strategy that's working as the economy on Main Street is doing great, while all the globalists are whining because their derivative bullshit global market shares are losing value.
Here you go, buddy, this guy can explain it to you in terms you can understand. [youtube.com].
I am a crackpot
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 06 2019, @02:39AM
In what town is this Main Street that you mention?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday September 06 2019, @09:35AM (2 children)
Nonsense. There are two things forgotten here. First, the tariffs aren't going to be applied for long enough to affect long term business strategy. Sure, if tariffs were going to be around for 20 years, it might be worth my while to invest in steel, textiles, and other such things. In the meantime it disrupts supply chains all over the place.
Second, the rest of the world isn't standing still and waiting for the US to sort itself out. The massive growth has been outside of the US ever since the end of the Second World War. It was Western Europe in the early part of that era, rebuilding from the destruction of the Second World War, and now it's almost everyone on the planet building towards developed world status. Protectionism cuts off the US from that massive growth.
There is no encouraging here. It's just disruption without any long term effect other than to encourage businesses to move yet more stuff out of the unpredictable zone, namely, out of the US and into those massive growth areas.
(Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Friday September 06 2019, @11:03AM (1 child)
Just claiming that what's going on is "protectionism" exposes your ignorance. It's a rebalancing and deglobalization.
Trump did not just show up out of nowhere and decide to do these corrections. He was a response to the years of globalist elites extracting wealth from main street to maintain the US empire. The empire needed to be dismantled, one way or another. It's been costing the US more than it's worth for a decades.
The only thing that's happening now is that the costs are being shifted and no longer borne as much by the US workers.
That's disruption, sure, it had to happen as part of the deglobalization and empire dismantling. You're still just blind to the direction it's all going.
Those of us who have seen the elites crushing the middle class for decades are cheering standing up to China for a change. The cost is well worth it. China has been around a long time, and they treat the US as a barbarian nation. That kind of strategy means you bring in the barbarian leaders, and show them some good life, and they then go along with whatever China wants. That's what has been happening to the US for a long time, with the US population paying the cost for the good life of the China-friendly elites. Trump is just interrupting that strategy.
I am a crackpot
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 06 2019, @11:31PM
And just how much ignorance is exposed by that? Not much.
In other words, just protectionism, but gussied up with fancy rhetorical decorations. Nobody is for "unbalanced deglobalization", it's just a natural consequence of such shortsighted protectionism schemes.
This empire has nothing to do with free trade. I agree that Trump is a response. I don't agree that the response is sane or going to improve things with respect to the current situation. My view is that tariffs and similar bits of protectionism have a remarkably bad history of failure (even when they succeed at first such as with the Japanese Empire and Paraguay in the early 19th century). But this time will be different, right?
Let us keep in mind that the crushing has resulted in most of the people who left the middle class becoming richer [soylentnews.org] rather than poorer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by black6host on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:22PM (44 children)
Sure, but who's footing the bill for the "revenue to the government" to pay subsidies? It ain't China... And I doubt the manufacturers are going to eat the costs as a favor to the consumer.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:28PM (32 children)
The manufacturers outsourced everything to China to save a buck, now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Apple can eat shit.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:03PM (31 children)
Businesses are always looking to save money, it's what makes business work. No one volunteers to stock toys on a shelf out of the goodness of their heart.
What this helps accomplish is improve the economics of moving some of that industry back inside our borders where it will help Americans earn a living. This is part of the reason that employment is at record highs across the board. It's like being in a family where your father is a doctor, your mother is a tax attorney, and your brother is an IT specialist. You save all kinds of money when services are kept in the family. The US is like that, a big family and everyone wins by keeping the money in house.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:13PM (12 children)
Woo Hoo!!!
Fantastical !
So let me get this right. It sounds too good to be true. So . . . you're saying that I can expect free services from US companies because I'm also in the US family? That is fantastic !
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(Score: 3, Flamebait) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:36PM (10 children)
You're missing the point. If your father is a doctor and gives you a free checkup, he loses time and money, but the family benefits. When you keep goods and services inside the country, then the country benefits. And a prosperous country is good for everyone. If you love handing out welfare to people you had better have a prosperous nation to afford it. And if you want a chuck of the American dream, you better have an America that's thriving to give you those opportunities.
Anyone looking to sit on their laurels and receive handouts likely hates a thriving economy because it removes their excuse for sitting on the couch accomplishing nothing.
Anyone looking to improve their life and that of their kids loves a thriving economy because it removes the barriers to success.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:59PM (9 children)
No. They dream of a thriving economy, that other people create by their labors, while not having to expend any of their own effort to create that thriving economy which provides them welfare. It's the New American Way!
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(Score: 1, Disagree) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:11PM (8 children)
My god man, if you don't see a thriving economy right now they you never will. This is as good as it ever gets - you should be out there taking advantage of it. If you're not improving your lot in life RIGHT NOW then you're not trying. Too many people prefer to gripe and grumble and shake their fists at perceived inequities instead of getting out there and claiming a chunk for themselves.
If you aren't out there taking advantage of this economy then I have no sympathy for you. But don't expect the vast majority of people in this country who are working and moving forward to willingly vote to subsidize your lazy ass next year.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:31PM (2 children)
I've been productively working continuously for almost four decades. I don't need any sympathy. I think my life is pretty improved already.
You seem to miss my point that corporations will create the absurd situation I describe -- for their own profit. No matter how easy it is to see that it could ruin the country. Corporate profit comes first. Must outsource or offshore all jobs.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:33PM
Sorry, wrong thread for that one.
I'm thinking of the current generation that seems to feel entitled to be supported from birth to death.
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(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:26PM
They'll outsource until we make it economically more advantageous to hire Americans. You can count on businesses to work a specific way, to increase profit. You just have to adjust things around them to insure that their best path towards profit is the same path that profits the American worker.
If you tariff chinese goods enough to make local sources the profitable route then that's what you need to do.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:53PM (1 child)
The economy isn't thriving for normal people. Normal people work more for less while the millionaire class gets to keep the proceeds.
Perhaps for those that are old enough to have been able to benefit from the gains, but not for normal working stiffs that entered the workforce over the last 20 years.
It's more or less a Ponzi scheme where newer workers are paying for the older ones. Just be happy that you got yours.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @12:26AM
Yes. Almost half the country can't afford a $400 emergency. Very, very few can afford a $1,000 emergency. So many are having trouble even affording car payments. The stock market and GDP being up only tells you that the mega-rich are doing better.
People who think the economy is great for ordinary people are suckers who slurped up mainstream media propaganda. Even though CNN and MSNBC are supposedly anti-Trump, they oppose him for some of the dumbest reasons possible, and implicitly accept that the status quo is great. To them, Trump is the problem, rather than a symptom of a system which is fundamentally rotten.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:23PM
Employment rate: 60.7% [tradingeconomics.com] - thriving economy, my ass.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @09:28PM
Someone needs to check their privilege.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @01:54AM
We are probably in a recession already.
The US has been contemplating negative interest rates . Europe has been issuing negative interest bonds for a while now (and people are buying them, so must think things will get worse). Iceland just started issuing negative interest mortgages! Institutional savings accounts have been charging interest. There are massive efforts to keep the bubble from popping, and trying to get folks to spend rather than save is the number one tool). And, unlike 2008, the Chinese are in no position to (nearly single handedly) pull the rest of the world out of recession.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:30AM
No, but what you can expect is, US based companies hire US workers, who spend money in the US, which then circulates in the US. As opposed to sending money overseas, where the money then circulates in China, India, Korea, or wherever. Every dollar removed from circulation within the US cuts into your and my wealth.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:24PM (13 children)
If that were true industry would be growing right now. Instead, it's shrinking.
U.S. Factory Activity Shrinks for First Time in 3 Years [wsj.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:48PM (12 children)
That's alarmist. Factory activity ebbs and flows like the tide. This is seasonal and I suggest you mark my comment so we can come back and discuss how it rose again next month.
The fact is that during the 8 years under Obama, the US lost jobs month over month and $8 trillion (with a T) was added to the national debt. It wasn't until after the election that there was a consistent upward trend in both manufacturing and employment, the exact opposite of what the alarmist like like this predicted.
(Score: 4, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:52PM (1 child)
Something seasonal does not happen for the first time in three years.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:06PM
Fuctuations in the industry have been going on since the market was being tracked and factory activity tends to hover right around the 50 mark already. A single months dip of a half percent does not indicate a trend nor a recession.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:58PM (4 children)
You're going to pretend to care about the debt now?
President Trump’s $4 Trillion Debt Increase [crfb.org]
U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion [npr.org]
That is a blatant lie. [bls.gov]
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:13PM (1 child)
Oh now we care about debt, where were you when the Kenyan Jew was selling us out?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:18PM
In Occupy Wall Street, protesting the 'too big to fail'. That's where your future too was sold.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @09:03PM
How naive - citing the federal government sources on labor statistics - don't you know they all hate the current president and will do anything to make him look bad? /s
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:36AM
Debt? Almost no one in the US cares about the debt. Only a few of us crazy people ever even think about it. In point of fact, every single president who has held office since I was born has increased the national debt, not by some slim margin, but by doubling and tripling. The US gave up caring about debt sometime during or soon after the Second World War. There are those who work hard to convince us that debt is a "good thing". That is pretty much every parasite who profits from America being in debt, starting with the Federal Reserve.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:49PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:U.S._Federal_Deficit_Stacked_Bar_Chart_-_2018_to_2027.png [wikipedia.org]
https://www.usdebtclock.org/ [usdebtclock.org]
$23T today. $24T by time Trump is kicked out. Trump started with $19T. He has been amassing MORE debt per year than Obama and Obama started with 2009 recession that bankrupted GM and others. Trump started with only $400B deficit and booming economy and then he turned that into $1+T deficit and economy that will crap out next year thanks to his unhinged tariffs.
US has been gaining jobs since 2010... don't worry, that will stop soon.
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/ces0000000001?output_view=net_1mth [bls.gov]
Don't let reality stop your thinking thought.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:31PM (2 children)
1. employment rate since 2012 showed steady increase [tradingeconomics.com] after the drop caused by GFC (switch to 10y view) And it wasn't Obama that caused the GFC.
2. those trillions? Remember the 'too big too fail'? That's where your future tax money went, to American corporations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:17PM (1 child)
And for years we waited for the Obama administration to prosecute those assholes. Remember how that turned out?
(Score: 4, Touché) by c0lo on Thursday September 05 2019, @11:22PM
Remind me what Trump is doing in this regard?
The last I know, Obama rescued them and Trump rewarded them with tax cuts.
But maybe you have more positive news now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @10:03AM
What's that, just another alternative fact from a trumpette.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:47PM (3 children)
The Catholic food bank and charity center down the street proves that statement wrong... The whole neighborhood donates their consumer spending excesses there to assuage their guilty consciouses - it makes them feel much better than filling the landfill, and volunteers do indeed sort the trash from the useful, stocking toys on a shelf for donation to the needy.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:34PM (2 children)
And I respect that. There was a time when religious organizations were the ones helping folks in need that way and it's why they were granted a tax exempt status. I wish more of them would step up and do the same instead of people relying on a governmental nanny state welfare program.
But that's entirely different from the way businesses operate. You don't flip burgers because it's your goal in life to do so, you flip burgers because you want to earn a living. And the business employing you has to make money in order to pay you. And they need to make a profit so they can expand and hire more people like you. That's business 101.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:36PM
Stick that in your thousand points of light, and smoke it.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @12:35AM
They were granted a tax exempt status because the government doesn't care about the first amendment or the separation of church and state. If they wanted to run charities, they could start a separate charitable organization and that would be tax exempt. The way we do things now, where they're automatically tax exempt whether or not they do any significant amount of charitable work, is ridiculous and violates the Constitution. Also, a lot of their "charity" is just them preaching in poor countries, spreading their toxic religion.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:05PM (1 child)
But who's been footing the bill for outsourcing to China and other countries for the last 40 years?
Fly-over staters. Rust belters. Trump supporters.
Neither the emergence of Trump, nor his open hostility to the trade status quo with China, should be surprising to anyone who was paying attention to the development of the US economy over the last several decades. As the rust belt got rustier, the gains became more unequal, and more people started to get left behind, what did people think was going to happen? Everybody was going to learn to code? H1B took care of that too.
A trade war with China was always coming. The public knows their economists are much smarter than ours.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:33PM
If their economists are much smarter than yours, you will lose the trade war. Just sayin'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:27PM (8 children)
US companies are paying the Trump Tax and then turning around and passing that right on to the consumer.
Hopefully that's helping to pay for the farmer socialism payouts but not enough because the federal debt is at the highest point since WWII.
Aren't Tax-and-Spend Republicans great!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:52PM (1 child)
Let me ask you this: If tariffs are so bad for a country why does china have so many of them on US imports?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:37PM
I don't know, because Trump's trade war?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:42AM (5 children)
You can't be serious. CHINESE companies are paying the Trump Tax. No worries, though, because China is subsidizing those companies, just as it has been subsidizing Chinese companies for the past three decades. That is all part of the Assassin's Mace. We are engaged in assymetrical warfare with China, and Trump's tariffs are our first shot back at them.
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Friday September 06 2019, @02:03AM (2 children)
so, the chinese companies pay the tariff (so you say).
you really think they won't raise prices to compensate?
seriously??
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @02:40AM
Yes, seriously. If they try to raise prices, the US will source from their competitors, like Vietnam, India or Cambodia instead.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @02:29PM
OK, you appear to have lost the thread. Trump says China has unfair advantages in trade. Because of things like ultra-cheap labor (and in some cases maybe slave labor) and government subsidies, the Chinese are selling stuff really, really cheap. Americans like buying cheap stuff, so they buy lots of Chinese. Enter the tariff. Now Chinese products cost more, because we say so. The Chinese raise prices to compensate - and American consumers start looking around for cheap stuff again. Prices are looking pretty good now on NAFTA goods, and South American goods, and Asian goods not made in China. Even Euro stuff starts looking better, when Chinese cheap shit is priced more competitively.
The real question is - how does China retaliate? And, will it be effective? There are a lot of ways in which China can fuck up, there are some ways in which China can make this work to their advantage. But, raising prices is NOT how China will win this. Every hike in price helps to ensure that Americans do NOT buy Chinese.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @02:13AM
FTFY
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 06 2019, @02:55AM
Really? Then consider this: it's not like the Chinese companies raise the price then pay to the US Customs, I can guarantee you their FOB [wikipedia.org] price stay pretty much the same.
It's the importer that have to pay the extra custom duties and the importer is very likely an US entity. The extra tax is either paid directly (e.g. if you, a private person, buy something from aliexpress.com) or passed to customers (e.g. if you buy it from a US retailer that paid the custom duties).
The only way this works for US:
1. by artificially inflating the price with the taxes, with the extra extracted from your pockets going into govt coffers
2. a higher price for the end buyer may allow local industry to compete within the same range of products/services. But this is a bet, not necessary a reality.
But, bottom line, you - the end buyer - are going to pay more one way or the other.
The only way this hurts the Chinese sellers: they aren't gonna sell that much to you and they will need to find other buyers to shift the same volume. But you (or Trump, or the govt) won't see a dime from the Chinese companies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:17PM (7 children)
Tell that to all who folks who are going to lose their jobs in the coming recession. [foxbusiness.com]
Tell that to all the farmers who have nowhere to sell their goods anymore. [newsweek.com]
Tell that to the manufacturing industry that is already in a recession. [marketwatch.com]
Presidents can't do much to improve the economy but they sure as hell can crash it due to massive incompetence. The Trump Slump is real.
(Score: -1, Troll) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:29PM (5 children)
It amazes me how strongly the left desires a recession - so much so that they pray for it and see it happening in places where it isn't.
The recession will come if the Fed raises the rate. If they keep their hands off the wheel then things will continue to do well.
The farmers are covered by the new trade deals with Japan, Brazil, and the EU. That was part of the reason for the G7 deal with PM Abe. China isn't our only customer.
Manufacturing is far from being in a recession. Panicing about a fluctuation of .5% is like being startled to realize that the temperature goes up and down during the day.
The media and the left would love a recession - they have nothing to run on right now and they're desperate for anything, even at the expense of the American worker. So far, it hasn't happened. The Federal Reserve can trigger one simply by raising the rate - watch to see if they do, it's the tell tale sign of intentional market manipulation and by the gods I hope such an act finally gets Trump to audit them. It's been a long time coming. No private operation should have so much control over the nation.
(Score: 5, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:38PM (2 children)
Yep, leftist bastions like Fox Business!
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:04PM (1 child)
Sadly the deal with Disney, the ouster of Roger Ailes and control of the network falling to James Murdoch, Fox News has been moving towards the hard left. James Mudoch, who inherited control from his father, is an avowed globalist and is on record saying that he "seeks to create a globalist network out of Fox and turn away from its prior conservatism", never mind that being the last remaining conservative network was the very thing that made it more popular than CNN or MSNBC combined.
Sarcastic comments about Fox being "leftist bastards" are no longer funny, they're becoming true.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:51PM
You guys are funny! One minute FOX is "hard right", the next they are "hard left". Ebb and flow... just like your economy in a fickle absent minded world.
Just so you know, it was the government tax handouts (incentives, or whatever euphemism you want to give it) that moved all the factories overseas. It was bipartisan, so we don't have to bring that shit up. It's the "FedEx" way, a package from San Fransisco to Oakland has to go through Atlanta. The secretary of state's useless drunken brother in law gets a cushy job (he doesn't even have to show up!), and the old lady will let him sleep in the bedroom. This is the life they live. What's this "left/right" bullshit you people babble about? You really think they give a shit about that?
I think the phrase is *kicking it up* or *paying tribute*, something like that. Sounds perfectly normal. Keeps the machine from seizing up.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:53PM
They're on a religious quest to purify the White House, to atone for their Female President Messias Hillary losing. Just like many on the republican side wanted to purify the White House after that "black, Kenyan, muslim" had defiled it.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Joe Desertrat on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:03PM
The recession is coming because of another coming credit crash, mostly caused by the relaxing again of any safeguards on what lending institutions do with debt. Trump wants to lower interest rates because his businesses will rake in millions if that occurs, but possibly also (If he is capable of this sort of foresight) because it will allow another round of speculation that staves off the collapse until after the election. That it will be worse the longer before it occurs is of no concern to him, he has access to the ultimate insider information and will be well protected when that happens.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 06 2019, @12:46AM
I didn't realize that Americans have stopped eating. Yeah, the farmers will all go bankrupt now, for sure. Of course, obesity should become a thing of the past!
(Score: 5, Informative) by meustrus on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:32PM (4 children)
"All the right moves to improve the US economy"? He's done about the only thing a president can to tank the economy that will take effect during his tenure! Not smart, really; you're supposed to time-delay it so your successor gets the blame. Poor Bush Sr. (only the truly unreasonable blame Obama for the economy since it managed to explode right before he took office).
As for farm subsidies, I think you'll find the vast majority of farmers would prefer to sell their crops. They are some of the most anti-socialist folks you'll find.
Meanwhile, revenue from the tariffs is obliterated by the hit to tax revenue caused by the shrinking economy. The deficit grows.
The only result of all this will be Trump losing his re-election for fucking with farmers and industrialists. China can wait this out. Nobody over there has to win an election.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2, Troll) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:38PM (2 children)
You have to be suffering from a particularly severe case of TDS to look around the country and see a "tanked economy". Either that or you live in one of the democratically controlled cities like SF, LA, or NY where state taxes and cost of living are insane due to the welfare state mindset they have.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 06 2019, @12:44AM (1 child)
Around half of Americans can't afford a $400 emergency, and almost none can afford a $1,000 emergency. Medical bankruptcies - which don't even exist in other first world countries - are one of the leading causes of bankruptcy. Many people are underemployed, and the vast majority of job gains have been for low-paying jobs. Factory jobs continue to be outsourced under Trump, even as he lies and claims they aren't.
The economy isn't good for ordinary people. It's great for the mega-rich, though, who benefit the most by far when the stock market is up. You know, the same mega-rich that Trump just gave tax cuts to, because they definitely needed even more money.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 07 2019, @03:37AM
What percent of Americans' take home pay is that? My take is that for the vast majority, even the $1,000 is well under 10%. So if people can't afford such emergencies (or at least can't afford to put the emergency on a credit card) when they're earning far more than enough to pay for those emergencies, then why is it something we should care about? Just rub their noses in the pile of shit they created like you would any puppy. Presumably, they're smarter than puppies, right? And should learn rather quickly.
What's not good about it? You have wealth, choice, and a pretty exciting world.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 05 2019, @09:08PM
Oh, hey, they've got this covered: just like how the uptick after Trump's election was all about anticipation of the wonderful things to come. Economics is 9% perspiration and 90% perception, particularly if you're playing in the derivatives.
Now, long term, you've got to go back to Slick Willie to see the pump and time-bomb delivered with style - it was so bad that Al Gore didn't even want to win.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:43PM (4 children)
And by complete coincidence, that just so happens to include breaks for Ivanka Trump's clothing business [thinkprogress.org].
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Troll) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:55PM (3 children)
Yes, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the CEO's of several billion dollar tech, toy, and clothing companies arguing the case against these tariffs just before the holiday season and it was all about his wife.
Take your the blinders off.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:13PM (2 children)
Ivanka isn't his wife, he's his daughter.
I'm not saying it's *all* about his daughter, but I wouldn't be surprised if she lobbied daddy to give her a break.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Troll) by linuxrocks123 on Thursday September 05 2019, @09:32PM
GP's confusion is understandable [metro.us].
(Score: 2) by The Shire on Thursday September 05 2019, @10:28PM
Yep, I'll eat that mistake and write it off as trying to answer a flurry of posts.
But the point is the same, and I stand by it.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday September 05 2019, @08:24PM (3 children)
Yeah, kind of. [politico.com] Except the Japanese have not really agreed to what Trump has said they did.
No he's not. He's an idiot who does not understand any of this at all. He ruined a key export market for America's farmers, then panicked.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 06 2019, @02:15AM (2 children)
I like the difference. I mean, it really puts into evidence that "principles" != "reality"
(as in "agreement in principle" != "really agreed" - grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday September 06 2019, @02:50AM (1 child)
I took that quote from the Japanese PM to mean "Let's just see how desperate you get".
I mean, come on, look at who he's negotiating with.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday September 06 2019, @03:03AM
Apparently, not desperate enough to drop the tariffs on cars and auto parts. At least, not yet.
But, hey, you know? Corn doesn't last in storage as much as a hunk of steel, 6 months of delay makes quite a difference when your goods are perishable; even more so when you rely on the money from your previous crop to work for the next one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @05:57PM (4 children)
Let's suppose I am a big and well established global corporation, producing some stuff for consumers. And being so, I am asking myself, Which market provides more consumers, USA or China?
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:09PM (2 children)
What -- a bubble financial plan? A loss on every sale but make it up on volume?
A better question to ask: which country has more consumers who can pay for the product.
That's probably still the US but if we finish the process of moving all jobs overseas, nobody will be left to buy anything.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 05 2019, @07:05PM (1 child)
Those who can pay must have a steady job. Therefore they fall into the worker category and must be moved (or their job moved) to a different country. To save money!
Those who do not fall into the previous worker category are therefore consumers who buy the goods made in other countries. If they have money to buy those goods, then they must have an income which probably puts them into the worker category to be relocated (or their job relocated) to a different country.
It's a simple plan. It is easy for anyone to see how amazingly successful such a plan would be a saving corporations money.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 05 2019, @09:12PM
FTFY - a job is a mean, not an end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 05 2019, @06:15PM
A lot of Chinese are still poor and rural. U.S. population is trending towards 500 million and China will decline to under 1 billion.
Your global corporation is also going to have its trade secrets stolen and products copied if it isn't careful with China.