Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
With Microsoft embracing Linux ever more tightly, might it do the heretofore unthinkable and dump the NT kernel in favor of the Linux kernel? No, I’m not ready for the funny farm. As it prepares Windows 11, Microsoft has been laying the groundwork for such a radical release.
I’ve long toyed with the idea that Microsoft could release a desktop Linux. Now I’ve started taking that idea more seriously — with a twist. Microsoft could replace Windows’ innards, the NT kernel, with a Linux kernel.
It would still look like Windows. For most users, it would still work like Windows. But the engine running it all would be Linux.
Why would Microsoft do this? Well, have you been paying attention to Windows lately? It has been one foul-up after another. Just in the last few months there was the registry backup fail and numerous and regular machine-hobbling Windows updates. In fact, updates have grown so sloppy you have to seriously wonder whether it’s safer to stay open to attacks or “upgrade” your system with a dodgy patch.
Remember when letting your Windows system get automatic patches every month was nothing to worry about? I do. Good times.
Why is this happening? The root cause of all these problems is that, for Microsoft, Windows desktop software is now a back-burner product. It wants your company to move you to Windows Virtual Desktop and replace your existing PC-based software, like Office 2019, with software-as-a-service (SaaS) programs like Office 365. It’s obvious, right? Nobody in Redmond cares anymore, so quality assurance for Windows the desktop is being flushed down the toilet.
Many of the problems afflicting Windows do not reside in the operating system’s upper levels. Instead, their roots are deep down in the NT kernel. What, then, if we could replace that rotten kernel with a fresh, healthy kernel? Maybe one that is being kept up to date by a worldwide group of passionate developers. Yes, my bias is showing, but that’s Linux, and it’s a solution that makes a lot of sense.
Related Stories
Open source's Eric Raymond: Windows 10 will soon be just an emulation layer on Linux kernel
Will Windows lose the last phase of the desktop wars to Linux? Noted open-source advocate Eric Raymond thinks so.
Celebrated open-source software advocate and author Eric Raymond, who's long argued Linux will rule the desktop, reckons it won't be long before Windows 10 becomes an emulation layer over a Linux kernel.
[...] Looking further into the future, Raymond sees Microsoft killing off Windows emulation altogether after it reaches the point where everything under the Windows user interface has already moved to Linux.
"Third-party software providers stop shipping Windows binaries in favor of ELF binaries with a pure Linux API... and Linux finally wins the desktop wars, not by displacing Windows but by co-opting it. Perhaps this is always how it had to be," Raymond projects.
Is It Time for Windows and Linux to Converge?
Last phase of the desktop wars?
The two most intriguing developments in the recent evolution of the Microsoft Windows operating system are Windows System for Linux (WSL) and the porting of their Microsoft Edge browser to Ubuntu.
For those of you not keeping up, WSL allows unmodified Linux binaries to run under Windows 10. No emulation, no shim layer, they just load and go.
[...] Proton is the emulation layer that allows Windows games distributed on Steam to run over Linux. It's not perfect yet, but it's getting close. I myself use it to play World of Warships on the Great Beast.
The thing about games is that they are the most demanding possible stress test for a Windows emulation layer, much more so than business software. We may already be at the point where Proton-like technology is entirely good enough to run Windows business software over Linux. If not, we will be soon.
So, you're a Microsoft corporate strategist. What's the profit-maximizing path forward given all these factors?
It's this: Microsoft Windows becomes a Proton-like emulation layer over a Linux kernel, with the layer getting thinner over time as more of the support lands in the mainline kernel sources. The economic motive is that Microsoft sheds an ever-larger fraction of its development costs as less and less has to be done in-house.
If you think this is fantasy, think again. The best evidence that it's already the plan is that Microsoft has already ported Edge to run under Linux. There is only one way that makes any sense, and that is as a trial run for freeing the rest of the Windows utility suite from depending on any emulation layer.
So, the end state this all points at is: New Windows is mostly a Linux kernel, there's an old-Windows emulation over it, but Edge and the rest of the Windows user-land utilities don't use the emulation. The emulation layer is there for games and other legacy third-party software.
Also at The Register.
Previously: Windows 10 Will Soon Ship with a Full, Open Source, GPLed Linux Kernel
Call Me Crazy, but Windows 11 Could Run On Linux
Microsoft Windows Linux for Everybody
Original Submission #1 Original Submission #2 Original Submission #3
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:05PM (7 children)
It seems that the Year of Desktop Linux is some sort of eschaton which must always be averted.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:35PM (6 children)
If M$ rebadged Fedora (my os) as Windows 11 I still wouldn't use it. They'll find some way to fuckitup and add spyware on top just to make it hurt more while shoving it up the outbox.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:35PM (5 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @07:30PM (2 children)
barbara hudson you fuck up in fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues & slower string performance they have pascal doesn't https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon). Apk destroyed you in that link easily!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @04:08PM
need a -1 fuckwit mod
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 20 2019, @12:55AM
Security professionals everywhere agree that your "hosts file engine" is complete garbage. Hosts are highly ineffective against most threats and you know it. Whitelists and wildcards are far superior to your crapware. You know you don't amount to anything, which is why you spend so much time attacking people like Barbara Hudson.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @10:53PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:14AM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:07PM (14 children)
If Linux can run Puttering's SystemD, then of course it can run Windows. The question is, why does Linus allow his work to be so sorely abused?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Subsentient on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:17PM (2 children)
He's a masochist and likes taking it up the turd pipe.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:41AM
The Linus Torvalds-Jeffery Epstein link exposed! Feminists taking back their masculinity by sodomizing the males in their lives!
It all makes sense!
Men, it's time for anal chastity devices if you place to speak like a man, not a woman into the future. and a protective shield for your balls, lest some SJW feminist or their beta cucked she-men try and cut yours off!
The gender war has already begun, retain your masculinity, or true femininity at all costs before they are lost forever in an amorphous blob of gender ambiguity and unfathomable new social pressures and cliques.
(Score: 3, Funny) by chromas on Thursday September 19 2019, @03:25AM
No. systemd doesn't use pipes; it uses dbus. Try sending to the turdsocket.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:30PM (9 children)
Um, because it's within Puttering's freedom to do so? The GPL doesn't allow Linus to prevent SystemD.
What would you do? Put licensing requirements on the Linux kernel to disallow SystemD?
Freedom doesn't mean the software is good. The bazaar makes it good. Maybe subverting copyright with copyleft licenses isn't sufficient to make the bazaar.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:44PM (6 children)
Linus ultimately maintains and controls the kernel. Or, he did until some snowflakes whined and cried about his abusive language. Linus could have just said, "No.". At which point, Puttering could have forked the kernel, and put his system thingy into his own version of the kernel. Yep, you're free to do almost anything you want with the kernel, but you can't force Linus to adopt your stuff.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:53PM (4 children)
That's true, anything that needs to be in the kernel could have been rejected and forced onto a fork. Forking Linux would sure be an interesting mess, but not unheard of in FOSS. So why weren't the changes rejected?
I was going to make a point about corporate consensus and astroturfing, ultimately comparing Red Hat to bigoted review bombing campaigns. But I actually don't know. Honestly I'm still amazed at how much people care about SystemD, and I'm not sure if my disinterest is due to what kind of software I deal with (not system-level or embedded) or because I was never particularly fond of init anyway. Practically speaking, how is the explicit SystemD circle of dependencies any different from the de facto ecosystem around init?
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @02:47AM (3 children)
That circle of dependencies is why it is hated. The Unix philosophy was to have small programs do one thing well, wih defined interfaces, and chain them together to do big things well. You could modify, extend, or limit any component and as long as you didn't break the interface it would still work. It was easier for programmers to understand and improve small programs in their free time (the Bazaar). Where possible (and it was almost always possible) configuration and log files should be human readable text. There was a clear separation between system and user components.
systemD explicitly and deliberately broke as much of that as it could. It crosses boundaries demanding user-space programs depend on it being there. If one component is imported for a specific user program, the circle of dependencies eventually pull in the whole systemD. Once a program has been assimilated to run on systemD it takes significant extra work to also make run if systemD is not there. The ultimate design goal was to remove the ability to modify components from the masses and return control to the priesthood who could afford to work full-time on understanding the byzantine Cathedral.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Thursday September 19 2019, @09:05PM (2 children)
So it's annoying for free software developers, not necessary linux users as a whole? That makes sense. Except, well, I write plenty of software that runs on Linux and have never had any reason to import systemD. Not because I was using an alternative toolchain, but because I was not concerned with integrating with the operating system.
Is it a C thing? Because the JVM and the NodeJS interpreter, which are ultimately where my code ends up being executed, seem to do everything they need to just fine without touching the OS. But then, my code also tends to be the kind of thing you can stick in a Docker image and not worry about keeping it stable.
Operating systems are about abstractions. I'm happy to have sockets completely abstracted away from me, because due to the difficulties in making new protocols work with existing infrastructure, everything is an HTTP API anyway. Now, if we could be trusted to open up port 96, or 401, or whatever else in that unused but universally protected port space that firewalls tend to block, maybe us newbies would learn the OSI model and build new protocols instead of rebuilding everything from abstractions over HTTP. But that's besides the point.
The point is that something like daemon scheduling is like socket handling. I'd be happy to have it completely abstracted away from me. I've seen what it takes to appropriately handle all of the failure conditions for Windows services, at least, and I don't think I could ever trust myself to remember all the byzantine rules that result from the pattern of IO errors possible from a particular kernel design.
It sounds like systemD kind of sucks as a library. Why not push back? Rewrite parts of it to make it more modular and fall in line with the Unix philosophy? If that's not possible, maybe the problem is really that no one part of the dependency circle does at least one complete thing at all.
From what I've seen, though, most Linux software ends up with most of its functionality split into a "lib~~" package. Is it so bad if the supported frontend to that lib uses systemD? You can always make a different frontend. It's quite likely that people that prefer the features in systemD would also like to avoid having two similar systems running side by side.
Of course, I could still be completely misunderstanding things. I also fully expect someone to tell me to Get Off Their Lawn for admitting that none of my code touches bare metal.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 20 2019, @04:37AM
Yeah, you're programming on a different level. If you want to interact with hardware or the OS then systemD can be a pain.
I can see why some people hate it and why others are all "WTF is the problem, it works well."
I expect the poettering group to strongly resist any code pulls that attempt to make components more separable or individually replacable. The whole thing is deliberately tied into a ball of string.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 20 2019, @11:11AM
There are plenty of alternative init systems and service managers, people gripe because most of the major distros unilaterally switched to systemd. It's not hard to live with or without systemd as a home user, but where is a non-systemd distro with enterprise-class technical support?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:56PM
But how would that prevent systemd? Other than the kernel containing some sort of magic that prevents that process from running, you can put whatever on top of the kernel you want. In fact, Linus has repeatedly pushed back against systemd's fingers in the kernel, with the most obvious example being the repeated rejection of kdbus.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:44PM
True, but nature should.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:35PM
If we're going to make stupid suggestions about Windows, why not release 64-bit Windows X0 on intel? It has the nostalgia factor going for it, and lots of games could run.
After all, people are still running the 32-bit version, so demand is there. People miss the days when spyware was considered bad, not just an integral part of the operating system.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:11PM
You mean:
* Chromebooks
* Android
* The Internet of Trash / Taint / Tarnish [wordlistresearch.com]
* TiVo-ization
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by Fishscene on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:31PM (8 children)
This article is consistent with the phrase "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows".
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows [theverge.com]
If an OS is defined as the Kernel, and Microsoft is really planning to switch the Kernel to Linux, then yes, this is at least partially in line with their statement.
I would not be surprised at all if Microsoft was looking to rebase on Linux. In which case, the phrase might be more accurately "Windows 10 is the last version of (NT Kernel) Windows"
I know I am not God, because every time I pray to Him, it's because I'm not perfect and thankful for what He's done.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:39PM (7 children)
I would be really surprised, if indeed they were moving to a Linux base.
In the event that my games would easily work with Linux. I would be ditching Windows in a heartbeat.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:39PM (6 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @07:23PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure stalker blundering lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bullshit artist known for fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues slower string performance they have pascal doesn't https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon).
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:15PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues slower string performance vs. pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon).
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:40PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:55PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @10:17PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:27AM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:31PM (15 children)
I suspect if Windows switched to a Linux kernel all those Windows based games wouldn't work, which would eliminate the sole reason I keep one Windows instance running. I'll hold on to my Windows 7 and Windows 10 media to make sure I can continue to use the software I've purchased.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:47PM (8 children)
What's wrong with using Proton / SteamPlay to play Windows games under Linux?
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:05PM (6 children)
I do use my Linux box as a game machine through Steam, and the short answer is: sucky selection. Lots of stuff does work through Steam/Linux, more stuff than I have the time to play, but... lots more stuff doesn't. If you're dead-set on playing certain titles, then you are indeed locked into the OSs that they support, and in the world of gaming, Windows is still the #1 supported OS by a WIDE margin.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday September 18 2019, @07:45PM (5 children)
Maybe not every game, but for me enough of my favorite games worked well enough to create a tipping point to completely end the abusive relationship with M$. I kept an installation for a while but all the slurping stuff and general change of direction creeped me out to the point that I didn't want that running on any of my machines, air-gapped or not. It's nice to have the extra disk space as well! For the really old games there's also DOSBox.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:37PM (1 child)
Mod +1 Congratulations!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:42PM
Of course I'm sure the Steam client is slurping too, but hey, what can you do? We're all fucked either way.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:06PM (2 children)
Blizzard.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday September 18 2019, @10:20PM (1 child)
Ah. I don't like games that are online only even if I do play online occasionally. I generally prefer single player (or LAN).
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 19 2019, @01:15AM
Sorry, Starcraft I addict here - had to play Starcraft II when it came out, but, yeah, that online thing does chafe. They made it "make sense" with Hearthstone, but like all Freemium games that too eventually chafed - but I have to give them credit, I liked Hearthstone for over a year - I don't think I've ever played another Freemium more than a few days.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:08PM
That doesn't work for all games. I use a VM for a lot of games that don't work well under wine.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:12PM
And this would be a bad thing how?
And you're suggesting that they "work" now?
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:57PM (1 child)
They could do WSL in reverse. It would basically be WINE, but backed up by a huge organization with intimate knowledge of the closed-source half of the translation.
This raises a huge issue, though. What happens to DirectX? Microsoft sure isn't going to abandon it, but how would they implement it in Linux without being required to open source the implementation?
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:52PM
i've long advocated for a LSW so that people could use linux with their proprietary crapware from the 90's that they are stuck on for biz purposes. if MS rebased to linux just imagine the hardware support. if they helped with a LSW small businesses all over the world could switch to GNU/Linux!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:42PM
They created Windows RT, which is not the most compatible version of Windows, and WinCE, which is something else entirely, and Embedded Windows. But keeping the media for old versions is never a bad idea; even XP has an occasional use.
With regard to MS, the kernel in Windows is probably the only thing that was written by professionals; it works. Microsoft's problems are in software that sits on top of the kernel. Not sure if there is a reason to change the kernel, as it is pretty advanced for the year 2000, has many power saving levels, drivers are massively asynchronous. On the other hand, you cannot run it on any toaster; they support only Intel and ARM; the drivers are very complex; the kernel's features are frozen in time.
If MS does the switch, games may not even see the difference. On Windows all a game can do is to ask an API to do something for it. At most, send IOCTL's to a driver. Most likely, they need only SDL or an equivalent. And sound. They need a working sound. Might be a problem on Linux :-)
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:43PM (1 child)
Or wine would get a whole fuckload better after MS started contributing directly to it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:54AM
or Wine would quit running certain old software, like old versions of MS-Office...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:36PM (7 children)
This will never happen. Microsoft would never support random Joe end-user having that level of control over the kernel of their main product line. For instance, a Linux kernel that could handle Windows could also be modified to intercept licensing checks heading out the networking stack and respond with "yeah, you're cool", and also modified to make it so the signatures and other methods higher-level stacks used to verify the kernel wasn't modified were "correct". And that can be distributed as much as is needed as soon as a single person figures it out.
If they were going to put in a *nix kernel, they'd use a BSD as their base, which would allow them to make modifications but not give out the source that would make it easy to spot. For example, with a BSD kernel, just like with the current NT kernel, they could set up a special networking stack that's used only to communicate with Microsoft without making that communication visible to the user in any way other than network sniffing.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:43PM (2 children)
Are you forgetting Secure Boot and the fact that the Linux Kernel is GPLv2?
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:42PM (1 child)
Are you forgetting that the user has physical access to their own machine and thus has the power to modify Secure Boot, and also that Secure Boot verifies the bootloader but not what the bootloader loads?
And of course you can also modify a running kernel with module changes.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:47PM
... not to mention that pesky "compile from source" option I've heard about.
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:39PM (2 children)
You don't see random Joe end-users having that kind of control on Android, do you?
(Score: 4, Touché) by Thexalon on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:17PM
Yes, I do: For instance, lots of normal people "root" their phones, and are then able to do things Google didn't intend for them to be able to do. There are apps, instructions, etc out in the wild to enable them to do just that.
And I'd expect the same thing to happen for any Linux-based Windows.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:21PM
You mean like random Joe end-users having that kind of control on iCrap, do you? Or the PSX, or the PS2, PS3, XBOX, GBA, GBA Advanced, ReplayTV, TiVO, XBOX360, Wii, etc.....
It's not the OS on Android that is locked down, it's the manufacturers locking the consumers out of complete ownership of the device because complete ownership is rather inconvenient for corporations.
Yet, its still not impossible to get a fully rooted or jail broken device.
So perhaps not every random Joe does it, but more than enough people do.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:44PM
Windows isn't their main product line and hasn't been for some time now. It's not where they make their money.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @03:58PM (2 children)
I'd pay for getting DirectX in Linux so games play at the same or better speed as they do on Windows.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:08PM
Vulkan is what matters these days.
(Score: 3, Informative) by hwertz on Thursday September 19 2019, @06:49AM
wine does this. Wine has gotten quite good at running most games. And shockingly, within the last 6 months or so, benchmarks are showing most games actually getting 100-120% the frame rate in Linux as in Windows (on those games where they aren't just locked to the monitor refresh, for example 60FPS). I would have assumed it's directx being converted to opengl or vulkan, so at best you could get 90-99% the frame rate since there are conversions going on.. but no, 110% frame rate is apparently pretty typical now. (Admittedly they did find a few games that were still getting like 80-90% the frame rate, but not very many!)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:04PM (14 children)
Windows is old and crusty but Linux is new and shiny? How?! They're both the same age!
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:48PM (1 child)
Define Windows?
Here's significant Milestones for MS-DOS/Windows:
MS-DOS - Initial release August 12, 1981; 38 years ago[3]
Windows - November 20, 1985; 33 years ago, as version 1.0 (unsupported)
Windows 95, was released on August 24, 1995.
Windows NT 3.1 (named to associate it with Windows 3.1) was released in July 1993
I would say that when comparing apples to oranges, the release of the NT Kernel was akin to the first release of the Linux Kernel. As the NT Kernel was a major change from the previous architectures. While the current Windows 10 makes use of the NT Kernel. Which would make the Linux Kernel a couple years older than the NT Kernel/Windows.
Linux Kernel - Initial release 0.01 (17 September 1991; 27 years ago)
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Thursday September 19 2019, @05:00AM
NT started out as OS/2 NT ver 3. As part of the divorce, MS got version 3+ and IBM got ver 2.x. I'm sure they were happy that when they screwed IBM and switched NT to Windows, 3.1 was only slightly behind desktop Windows 3.11, which most called 3.1
(Score: 3, Informative) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:44PM (7 children)
Windows was built for one user, solitary, no password needed.
Business wanted the ability to share, so MS crapped in networking but left it MEGA vulnerable. They crapped in security...which made it appear secure, but it isn't.
Linux was built from scratch for multiple users on a network with built-in security.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:51PM (1 child)
There. FTFY.
That's not to say it hasn't been wildly successful and is (in general) much more secure out of the box than Windows.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @11:58PM
I wonder what grade it got.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:50PM (1 child)
Most users don't want to share their computers with others over either a network or the internet. They don't run servers.
Same as most users consider having to log in and wait for the system to stabilize is a pain in the arse. They would rather just turn it on, get a coffee, and come back with everything up and ready for them.
Same reason we don't put passwords on our phones. The devices are for OUR convenience.
"oh but someone can steal your data". If you use Android, or Facebook, or Google, nobody has to steal it - you're giving it away already.
Most of the time my laptop isn't even connected to a network. The idea of being connected all the time by default is dumb.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @10:52PM
Except businesses DEMAND connections ALL the time.
They demand multiple users.
And they demand security... Which is why businesses are switching their servers to Linux.
Most users could get by using Linux, see the rise of android, they just don't know it. If suddenly everyone got smart, you'd see use of Windows dropping to niche markets and, maybe, gaming.
But if everyone was smart, they'd use secure phones and use passwords.
Microsoft is dead, its just people are too stupid to realize it.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Thursday September 19 2019, @05:06AM (2 children)
I thought NT was designed to be multi-user, the MS version of HPFS had pretty good ACL support. Of course when they threw Windows on top of it, you had a single user userland on top of multi-user kernel.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 19 2019, @04:31PM (1 child)
Hang on a second. "when they threw Windows on top of it" means what, exactly? "single user userland on top of a multi-user kernel". Isn't that what we have on Linux? 17 people* could all be logged into my Debian machine, and I couldn't follow what they are doing, unless I invoke super-user privileges. Users are separate and distinct, and they can't manipulate each other's stuff, unless that stuff is explicitly shared.
*17 people can also be logged into Windows, but they can't all be active at the same time, unless they are running a server OS. I've tried it on home, student, and pro versions - it just doesn't work.
(Score: 2) by dry on Friday September 20 2019, @01:14AM
NT was originally designed to have various personalities or sub-systems running on the kernel, originally OS/2, Windows and Posix and I assume the Posix personality was quite capable of having multiple users logged in and each having their own shell, much the same as your Debian system. The Windows subsystem just wasn't designed for that. It might have been possible under the OS/2 subsystem and running Citrix, which at the time only ran on OS/2 and only supported text mode.
Today you might be able to run the Xserver or a terminal on NT under the new Linux subsystem and have multiple people logged in with permissions keeping them separate.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:09PM (3 children)
The number of people maintaining the Linux kernel far exceeds the number of people MS pays to keep their kernel up to date.
Would you rather fly a 1972 Cessna that has been torn down and rebuilt annually with multiple airworthyness inspections, or a 1972 Cessna that has been sitting in a barn for 15 years?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:57PM (2 children)
Then again, the 737 MAX is now super safe since it's not allowed to fly, just spin up the engines once a month, move a bit so the tires don't flat-spot.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @11:00PM
Microsoft used to have ANYONE dealing with kernel bugs, whereas Linux has a dedicated team. I trust them.
And I trust the people taking care of the Cessna when they all fly it every day and give a shit about it, and are all looking at it making sure everyone is doing their job properly over the team who doesn't give a shit...its just giving them a paycheque.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 19 2019, @01:13AM
The FAA, DOT, FDA, USDA, etc. don't guarantee a damn thing, never did, they just put a framework out there that good people/companies comply with, and when companies are so far out of line that lots of people are dying as a result they do eventually get around to shutting them down. Oh, and they're a blunt bureaucratic / police state instrument to push little companies around with, on occasion.
An airworthyness inspection, by someone who knows what they are doing, also ensuring the mechanics and suppliers know what they are doing - that's all important, and a hell of a lot more trustworthy than 15 years of barn rot - unless you are trusting people you shouldn't.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Funny) by EJ on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:15PM (12 children)
They could just merge Windows Eleven and Linux into a cleaner product called Windex.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Freeman on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:50PM
Some jokes are too scary to be considered jokes.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:59PM (8 children)
I may have went with Lindows, but someone already tried that about 18 years ago. Fittingly, Lindows also got sued [wikipedia.org] for trademark infringement.
(Score: 2) by EJ on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:27PM
Maybe so, but Microsoft has the money and lawyers to win the trademark suit against Windex.
Also, as we learned from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, you can put Windex on anything.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:46PM (6 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @07:25PM
Barbara hudson I see you had to withdraw after APK soundly thrashed you on your tech fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues slower string performance they have pascal doesn't https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also with you caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon).
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:51PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon).
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:58PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:59PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @10:20PM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:32AM
Barbara Hudson = incompetent failure & stalker lazy do nothing all talk erroneous bs artist fails on C\C++ null-terminated string buffer overflow security issues + slower string performance vs. Pascal https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889635#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] also caught stalking apk by unidentifiable anonymous posts proven in you quoted tranny (as tomhudson whom you really are loon)!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:46PM (1 child)
Linux is already a detergent [roeschswiss.com], windows is coming late to the party.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:01PM
This roach company has a weird sense of humor, Micro & Soft [roeschswiss.com].
(Score: 2, Insightful) by sfm on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:19PM (6 children)
So the long term goal is to write M$ a "check" every time you open Excel
Doesn't this also mean your computer is a brick if not tied to the Internet?
(Score: 2) by ilsa on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:53PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Satya Nadella allowed a little drool to escape every time he saw a Chromebook.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:06PM (1 child)
Yes.
Yes.
There seem to be three forces driving this. The first force enables the other two.
1. Microsoft lost the battle for phones. The only way to stay relevant is to make a product that works on competitors' devices. The easiest way to do that (and this isn't just for Microsoft) is to make everything a "web page" app in HTML/CSS/JS. And of course you will want a server to do the heavy lifting that would drain the battery, as well as provide a consistent experience across devices.
2. People like their old software, but Microsoft wants to sell them new software. Solution: only sell the software as a license, force people to pay periodically to renew the license, and justify it by giving them "free" updates they don't want.
3. All that juicy personal data has just been sitting around on client computers. If you really want to monetize that personal data, and why wouldn't you, there needs to be a reason for users to send their personal data to your servers.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:49PM
See, what I read was:
1. Beat your head against a wall.
2. Beat your head against a wall.
3. Beat your head against a wall.
;)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Interesting) by EJ on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:30PM (1 child)
Microsoft wants to go back to the days of mainframes where your "computer" is just a screen and input device(s).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by gtomorrow on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:30PM
As much as there's no lost love between me (and my computers) and Microsoft, they are hardly the only corporation wanting to return to the thin clients era.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:12PM
Yep, subscription is where it's at, baby - look at what that business model has done for IBM!
Seriously, though, looking across the spectrum of potential customer/victims, do you think you're more likely to collect $700 one time, plus the occasional bogus $150/year maintenance fee, or... $15 per month in perpetuity?
Of course they're going to do whatever makes them the most money, and they've reached a level of performance that's acceptable to most potential subscribers on the "cloud" model, so they're going to be pushing that, hard - freebies to schools, low cost student home licenses, etc. hoping to keep people locked in from cradle to grave.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @04:50PM
We were promised the unintended destruction of Microsoft as a collateral. Now, what next? Torvalds in Microsoft board of directors? Never trust the freaks what they are saying, corruption of weak minds is too easy.
(Score: 5, Informative) by mobydisk on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:26PM (2 children)
Windows has a driver model that is very different from the Linux kernel module approach. The file system has a different way of handling security permissions. The authentication is different. These are things that are very low level and I don't see how you would port them to Linux without kernel modifications. So while a partial port is possible, like Wine does, some things just won't fit.
One could argue that anything that doesn't port isn't really worth having because there is probably an equivalent infrastructure already in Linux.
And this ignores the fact that Windows is closed source and the risk of GPL leakage is too high for them to risk.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 18 2019, @05:51PM
Driver model is irrelevant for non-modular platforms, such as tablets, notebooks and phones. USB stack, BlueTooth stack and WiFi stack is everything you need for a digital slavery.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 19 2019, @01:02AM
One could argue that ACLs and case/space insensitive filenaming, registry vs .ini files, etc. are irrelevant frivolous BS and that what matters are the applications and how they interact with the users.
Just wait, next they'll be re-implementing Office in Qt.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by eravnrekaree on Wednesday September 18 2019, @06:09PM (5 children)
I am 100% confidence Windows 11 will be running on a Linux kernel and Wayland UI and the NT kernel will soon be retired. Microsoft will make a Windows theme on top of Gnome. Microsoft is going to have developers work on Wine to bring it up to full compatibility with Windows applications. This will allow a smooth, seamless transition. There will be a compatibility layer for Windows drivers on the Linux kernel. Microsoft wants to reduce development costs associated with the Windows kernel and this would allow development costs to be shared with other Linux users.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday September 18 2019, @08:51PM (1 child)
My guess would be KDE/Plasma over Gnome.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday September 18 2019, @09:47PM
Man, I almost went -1 Flamebait the both of you for trying to start that up.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 19 2019, @01:06AM (2 children)
When pigs fly...
Jobs already did this with OS-X 15+ years ago, it was a smart play - for him, in his circumstance.
I don't see Microsoft abandoning the desktop for another 15 years, maybe by 2035 - when Windows 11 really does come out - we will see some pigs flying, but it will take quite a while from today.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Thursday September 19 2019, @07:26AM (1 child)
m$ is moving to SAAS model and having a SAAS OS is clearly inappropriate. Having people with locked computers only because they forgot(or can't afford anymore) to pay for subscription is bad PR. Yet getting only single payment per install will eventually run dry due to saturation, which SAAS model is supposed to combat. So they definitely would want to focus their resources on SAAS products. Reusing entire linux stack for this would reduce maintenance burden a lot. So I don't see how it's different from Jobs' situation.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 19 2019, @12:35PM
Pride, for one thing. Continued lock in of niche markets which are bigger than OS-X has ever been, for another.
The wind is blowing toward SAAS pretty strongly now, but not enough to blow out the Windows desktop profit margin.
Things like the Linux shell in Windows point more toward an opening of Windows for cross platform compatibility, ensuring they don't get locked out of too many niche markets by software that "only runs on *nix." And, the lack of licensing hassle for inclusion of Linux tech makes it tremendously easier for Windows to include Linux features than vice-versa ala Wine.
🌻🌻 [google.com]