from the if-you-build-it-they-will-come...and-cut-through-it dept.
Smugglers have found an easy way to get through the vertical steel tube Mexican border wall. From https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/smugglers-are-sawing-through-new-sections-of-trumps-border-wall/2019/11/01/25bf8ce0-fa72-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
The breaches have been made using a popular cordless household tool known as a reciprocating saw that retails at hardware stores for as little as $100. When fitted with specialized blades, the saws can slice through one of the barrier's steel-and-concrete bollards in minutes, according to the agents, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the barrier-defeating techniques.
After cutting through the base of a single bollard, smugglers can push the steel out of the way, creating an adult-size gap. Because the bollards are so tall — and are attached only to a panel at the top — their length makes them easier to push aside once they have been cut and are left dangling, according to engineers consulted by The Washington Post.
The taxpayer-funded barrier — so far coming with a $10 billion price tag — was a central theme of Trump's 2016 campaign, and he has made the project a physical symbol of his presidency, touting its construction progress in speeches, ads and tweets. Trump has increasingly boasted to crowds in recent weeks about the superlative properties of the barrier, calling it "virtually impenetrable" and likening the structure to a "Rolls-Royce" that border crossers cannot get over, under or through.
In other words, no one did any serious pen testing on the wall design, or it would have been obvious that with all that leverage, the top tie-in was easy to flex.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @05:32PM (18 children)
just electrify the thing and get it over with.
(Score: 2, Touché) by fustakrakich on Monday November 04 2019, @05:47PM
Yeah, I can see all the extension cords now, to power those saws, and nearby houses.
It's pretty easy to short the thing to ground too.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 5, Funny) by DannyB on Monday November 04 2019, @06:20PM
That would be very convenient for electrically operated tools to penetrate the wall.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday November 04 2019, @06:22PM (6 children)
Waste more money and be crueler is literally your only solution to any problem.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday November 04 2019, @11:03PM (5 children)
With enough resources and violence every solution becomes final.
Since people are not that prepared to go all endlosung, immigrants will win, or better, succeed, because they are weapons, not players. The victory might be the planned police state, which has been built and needs a crisis, or the planned areligious state, which is the way to remove christianity as a way to end religious clashes with the imported islam, or the planned caliphate. Given that all three are evil, maybe the plan does not need to choose one.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:44AM (2 children)
The Wall of Stalin should do it, detonate a string of very dirty nukes across the southern US and you've got a transit-discouragement zone that'll last for millennia. May as well light off a few of the sumbitches before they're banned by treaty or something. Definitely better than a moat full of crocodiles or whatever it was that was supposed to go there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @04:58AM
Would it really be that bad? The highest levels of radiation would occur in the initial days and weeks, and in later years the big hazard would be ingestion of radioactive dust. Which you could counter somewhat with cheap filters, gloves, and a tent.
Killer drones with visual and infrared detection would be more effective. You need 2,000 to have 1 circling around every mile of border, while others are recharging or can act as backups.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:50PM
Nuke Texas? Sounds good to me.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @04:52AM
Who's your dealer man. Mine's only got wack indica.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:10PM
Yep. Let's just keep waiting for the Kristallnacht for either Latinos or Muslims.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @06:37PM (7 children)
Fill the steel tubes with a mixture of thermite, ammonium perchlorate, and nitro glycerin. That should slightly disable the sawzall.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday November 04 2019, @06:53PM (6 children)
Great idea! Then those trying to breach the wall can rig up something to introduce an electrical current or spark to the tubes while they're standing a good distance away behind a hill or something, and you've saved them all the trouble of finding their own explosives.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @07:20PM (4 children)
The sound would at least alarm the border patrol in LA that a breech occurred, and at the same time fix the Tijuana sewer river problem.
(Score: 5, Funny) by vux984 on Monday November 04 2019, @10:02PM (1 child)
"The sound would at least alarm the border patrol in LA that a breech occurred"
Not so much a 'wall breech' as 'wall total removal'.
Maybe they can build the next one out of giant dominoes; that ought to provide border patrol a nice show too when it falls down.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @10:27PM
Explosive dominoes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJjtSynKrM [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday November 04 2019, @10:22PM (1 child)
And given that it takes at least a few weeks and $millions to rebuild the section of wall they just blew up, and costs them maybe a few hundred pesos to blow it up again, I suspect the coyotes would be happy to make that exchange as many times as it takes. You seem to be thinking "BOOM", and then they'll cross in a matter of hours, when what would really happen is "BOOM", wait for border patrol to drop their guard, and then cross.
Also, the construction companies that are rebuilding the wall, if they operate like most construction companies, are hiring illegal immigrant day laborers to do some of the work. So you're actually using your tax dollars to create jobs for illegal immigrants, thus encouraging them to cross the border as an escape from political turmoil and crushing poverty in their home countries.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @04:32PM
They always go with the lowest bidder.
And just ONE mistake during construction........
The following conversation:
Hey Bill, I found Mikes hand!
Lucky you I found his dick.
Hey Chuck, I found some Bar-B-Que'd ribs!
That's not Bar-B-Que, that's Phil! I told him he needed to quit smoking.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @10:05PM
The world's biggest pipe bomb!
(Score: 3, Funny) by istartedi on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:17AM
Yeah, we can get PG&E to supply the... oh.. nevermind.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday November 04 2019, @05:39PM (33 children)
I had some misgivings about the design. A single bolt holds the slats, up at the top? FFS - wish I had known that. How many people DID know it, and never put two and two together?
I'd like a few more details. Is it an all-day job to cut through a slat, or is over and done with in ten minutes? A battery operated sawzall doesn't last long, on a single battery. If they cut through with one battery charge, then the slats are ultra-cheap sheet metal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @05:46PM (1 child)
Umm, RTFSRNW
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @08:14PM
This is the same media that says you can print a gun in minutes, so yes, an actual number would be necessary to understand what the claim really is.
(Score: 4, Informative) by richtopia on Monday November 04 2019, @05:50PM (12 children)
As the article discusses, this installation is a compromise between cost and function. The border patrol strongly requested a see-through wall to audit the other side, so rigid concrete is largely unfeasible. Apparently during testing all prototypes could be defeated with the proper application of power tools.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @07:23PM
Just so. This is why all the people who actually knew the situation and technology (*insert political commentary here*) disagreed with the idea of a wall.
The big trick is that walls never STOP things, they slow things down. The goal is to allow more time to respond to the situation.
It's just like a safe in your house. It makes turns the 5-second grab-and-go into a 5-minute grab-and-go, or the 2-second swipe to a 30-minute use a drill to get through the metal.
So walls make sense in a city, where people can cross the street in 15 seconds, put a wall there so they now need to take 3 minutes. Now you can set your patrols to be 2.5 minutes rather than every 10 seconds, and now humans can deal with the border crossings much more efficiently than before. The Berlin Wall wasn't effective because of the barbed wire and the high cement walls; it was effective because there were guards who shot people trying to cross it and the time-to-cross was long enough that the guards could catch them before they escaped.
In a wide desert, though, when the travel time is already 24 hours, adding another two hour means you can turn your 23-hour patrol cycle to be a 25-hour patrol cycle. That is negligible, especially in terms of cost to build, maintain, and the environmental impact of a wall.
But I guess seeing how Mexico is paying for the wall, the cost is minor. Mexico is paying for it, right?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday November 04 2019, @08:17PM (3 children)
With the proper application of power tools, you'd be hard pressed to find something you can't get through.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @10:41PM (2 children)
Bullet hailstorm.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:59PM (1 child)
Psychopath
And you think you're righteous too, whaddaprick
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday November 05 2019, @11:17PM
Irrespective of the state of mind or moral stance, I can't stop noticing it's a good example to using tools doesn't necessarily dismantle the defense.
Yes, the use of tools can get around the defence (e.g. dig tunnels).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 04 2019, @08:24PM (6 children)
Pretty much anything can be defeated with the proper application of power tools. Power tools tend to make noise though, so a microphone set up as a noise detector every twenty yards or so would largely solve that.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by vux984 on Monday November 04 2019, @10:11PM (5 children)
"so a microphone set up as a noise detector every twenty yards or so would largely solve that."
How does that solve anything? unless you have a border agents every few hundred yards or so to come running when the alarm goes off?
But if you have that, then you don't really need the wall at all. Just set up poles every 20 yards with motion sensors, cameras, and mics.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:42AM (4 children)
Border agents aren't goose stepping back and forth along a line painted in the dirt. They have vehicles. One every mile, adjusting for terrain, would be plenty fast as far as response times go.
And you don't need a lock on your front door if you have a security camera pointed at it? No one approach is ever going to be perfect and layering approaches increases effectiveness multiplicatively rather than additively.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:58AM (1 child)
Submitter here, TFS cut off my personal comment,
Your submitting AC guesses that the first bollard/column/tube was cut within a week of the wall construction. A careless user failed to push it back into place after going through, so it was finally spotted. C'mon guys/gals, were you born in a barn?
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @12:42PM
Well now AC, considering the horrid conditions most are running away from, it is quite possible some of them were actually born in a barn....or worse.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Tuesday November 05 2019, @07:36PM (1 child)
The lock on my door is under $100 and might need replacing once a generation. So its a no-brainer to have in place. It prevents casual walk-ins, and delays a dedicated break in attempt by a few seconds. And in that event its primary benefit is in securing evidence of a break in for insurance coverage.
If I had a security camera pointed at my door, and it was monitored 24x7, and a guard was stationed nearby, and adding the door lock was going to cost 30 BILLION dollars, that would be a very different equation. :)
And that's the border wall situation. We already need active monitoring (microphones, and cameras), we already need active patrols to respond to alerts.
The wall costs 30 BILLION dollars, will need constant maintenance and repair, and delays a prepared crosser less than 30 minutes. Less than a couple minutes if they simply want to over and come with ropes and ladders instead of cutting through.
This isn't a question of whether the wall increases effectiveness. I'll agree that it has some effectiveness. It's a question of cost vs benefit.
If you are already going to have the cameras and mics and infrared sensors, and drones, and manned patrols/response teams. Then multi-billion dollar wall doesn't buy you that much additional security relative to its cost to build AND maintain. It *might* be worth it in a few spots; although any measured reduction in traffic at those spots may simply mean the traffic is crossing somewhere else; so evaluating even that is non-trivial.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:27PM
Well, sure, if you make what you make now. If you made what the US government makes, that would be an entirely different story. Especially as for some reason what they make has little relation to what they spend.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday November 04 2019, @06:22PM (2 children)
OTOH, there's no reason they can't either use several batteries, or a portable generator, or just hook it up to a car/truck.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 04 2019, @08:26PM (1 child)
Generators are fucking heavy. Also quite expensive compared to a couple extra rechargeable batteries.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday November 04 2019, @09:04PM
Expensive to own, fairly cheap to borrow for a couple hours of steal.
But in many cases, a couple extra batteries will do just fine.
(Score: 2, Informative) by paul_engr on Monday November 04 2019, @07:46PM (1 child)
With a 5Ah or 9Ah 18V pack, you could cut for at least half an hour before it was depleted. I can fit the saw, twenty blades, and five batteries in a backpack that weighed like fifteen pounds total.
Once the tubes start to rust, you could also probably just hit them with a cold chisel and a 10lb sledge and shear the tubes. When I was a kid we had a basketball pole full of concrete and after a few years, we took it out by just a few hits with a chisel at the base and the whole thing just snapped in half right at the footing and fell over with a gentle tug
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 04 2019, @08:28PM
Depends how heavy a workload you're asking of them as to how long they'll last but, yeah, extra battery packs are absolutely viable.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by paul_engr on Monday November 04 2019, @07:49PM (1 child)
3/16 wall box tube isn't cheap sheet metal. It is pretty thick, but for 6x6, it would be considered thin wall. You can probably get up to or above 1/2" wall hot roll from any respectable steel vendor.
(Score: 2, Informative) by paul_engr on Monday November 04 2019, @07:53PM
Yeah, EMJ blue book says .188 wall is the thinnest in 6x6 for HREW square tube. They went cheap, could have done .375 or .5 wall
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 04 2019, @09:47PM (5 children)
No matter how much they add reinforcements, unless they change the material all it means is the sawzall has to make two cuts to get rid of a bar instead of one and then flex.
Trump has a simple solution, though, just add diamonds to the concrete mix, that will stop the sawzall blades.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @09:53AM (4 children)
Just filling them with rocks/gravel would add a lot to the difficulty of cutting. Metal cutting blades don't like rock, and rock cutting blades are very slow in metal.
(You couldn't use just sand because you could just drill a hole and let it trickle out, then cut above it.)
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @01:21PM (3 children)
Never used a diamond blade then have you? Makes quick work out of iron, steel, granite, marble and other incredibly tough natural materials. I have never found a better blade nor have I found something it wouldn't cut. Cuts through metal or stone with ease.
Reasonably priced too at around $20 for three. You may burn through a couple getting there, but you will get there, and quite quickly. The only thing I don't use them on is wood.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 06 2019, @02:05AM (2 children)
What about filling them with tar? As soon as you cut through it is going to coat the blade.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Wednesday November 06 2019, @04:19AM (1 child)
I know a green tree root can plug them up pretty good. Not sure about tar. High viscosity (guessing here) might plug the blade pretty good, but then even very thick tar would leak out so you'd probably going to have to deal with environmental impact and at minimum it wold have to be refilled depending on how much ended up leaking out.
Hmmm, I wonder how flammable tar is, I know with an hour of sawing pipe and blade can get pretty hot, never caused an actual fire (well, not with the sawzall anyway!) though.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 06 2019, @06:55AM
I meant stuff like in that pitch drop experiment. Slow enough that it will take hundreds of years to run out, but it will stick to and coat a hot blade. Add in the filings from the bit of cutting you can do and the blade would end up clogged with something like asphalt.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @08:17AM (2 children)
A decent one [milwaukeetool.ca] lasts a goodly long time. Longer if you slam the bigger 12AH pack on it.
Not that I'm arguing with you persay, but I've had to update my perception of battery-operated tools recently, and I suspect a lot of other people need to as well. I hadn't used battery operated stuff since NiCad ruled the world, and after trying some of the new Milwaukee FUEL tools, I'm just blown away by what they can do. Got a 1/2" FUEL impact I use to change semi tires with. That's a job a 3/4" air impact would grunt a bit to do, and one charge does all six tires. It's ridiculous.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:00PM (1 child)
I've been using them a lot lately myself and I can tell you from experience this very week that one 9AH battery will cut copper AC line all day long but ask it to cut steel gas line and you're going to run it down rather quickly. Don't get me wrong, it'll do the job. If you have a lot to cut you need to bring a spare battery or have something else to do while it charges back up though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:48PM
That, exactly. And, aluminum might surprise you too. 3/8" plate seems to run the batteries down pretty quickly. I moved my work to the shop, where I could plug in corded tools to get the job done. Cordless just wasn't going to "cut it" for me.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:18PM
You miss the point. This is not a theoretical vulnerability. This is a zero-day [washingtonpost.com] as it has already happened in reality (at least according to WP,) and the extent of it is being sat on very carefully by Border Patrol.
In fact, that article also says that they not only make the cuts happen, but they shove them back in place so that a casual visual inspection won't show the problem and it can be used again. (Of course, BP can also pull a 'we won't fix it but just keep it under close observation to catch the next group who uses it' strategy... If they catch where it has happened.)
The article even tries to even put out Republican spin that "if only the Dems had approved more funding this wouldn'ta happened," conveniently ignoring that thanks to President Trump's non-emergency declared emergency he gets to reallocate however many funds he thinks he needs to have gotten the job done right.
So, so much for, "oooooh, I know construction derp derp derp," Trump. Maybe it's not quite as beautiful as advertised and I'm still waiting for Mexico to pay for it.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:25PM
They claim about twenty minutes with two sawing from both sides if I recall correctly. With high quality diamond blades and a backpack full of charged batteries that sounds 'feasible.'
I can't find the article I read with the technical specs so details may not be correct.
My understanding is the steel is rather thin (lowest bidder syndrome?) and filled with concrete. each bollard is square shaped, so easier to get an initial bite on than if they were round. They also will go to the same bollard repeatedly as the concrete is compromised and hell, why cut the whole thing twice if you can just cut the weld alone and be done with it? Sometimes they are disguising the cuts with putty that looks like a weld to fool border patrol. Agents have taken to using a highly technical procedure to check any suspicious looking bollards.....they kick them.
Years ago, when my soil chain pipe cutter broke I cut a four inch cast iron sewer pipe with carbide (much inferior to diamond) blades while still in the ground. It took about forty minutes or so and seven blades if I recall correctly. It was also corded, I don't recall cordless being an option back then. So modern saw, diamond blades and a whole shitload of batteries.....mmm...feasible.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by richtopia on Monday November 04 2019, @05:40PM (8 children)
My first powered saw is a Dewalt reciprocating saw. There is very little it cannot cut through.
(Score: 2) by fishybell on Monday November 04 2019, @08:03PM (7 children)
I would say the biggest thing a reciprocating saw needs is adjustable speed and a good blade.
My first saw had a knob for speed control. That was crap. My new one's speed is controlled by the trigger, which is great, but it's also battery operated, so has limited use time.
Now I have two, and neither would get me through the wall. I would make a terrible drug smuggler.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 04 2019, @08:34PM (6 children)
Yeah, I was getting my sawzall on just this morning in fact (chopping out the old freon lines for scrap since the indoor unit is being relocated) but I know better than to ask it to cut up the concrete and rebar slab where the baptismal used to be. For that we got a good, corded circle saw, some masonry blades, and use the generator. The generator has a huge fucking logging chain tying it to the front porch because them things are damned heavy to be wagging inside and out every day if you want one that can put out a useful amount of power.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:03PM (1 child)
Cracks me up how often you bring up your church remodel, virtue signal much?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:29PM
All I'm doing lately aside from fishing when I can steal the time, so it's kind of on my mind.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @08:25PM (3 children)
I assume it is a very old building? You may run into black iron pipe. That shit is tough!
If you find yourself doing any of the 4" to 5" drain plumbing and don't have a ratcheting chain cutter or possibly not the space to use it (a situation I came across a couple of times) I have found these to work very well, they take about an hour and you want to cool the blade but the Milwaukee blades tend to be a bit thicker and less 'jumpy.' Won't work on concrete like some others but are great for that old black pipe when room is at a premium and the chain ratchet won't fit.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-9-in-Diamond-Grit-Torch-Sawzall-Reciprocating-Saw-Blade-48-00-1450/202256180 [homedepot.com]
The last place I did had a 3" root going from a breach in the basement to the second floor where a small tree was growing out of the toilet. Wish I still had the photos. The root did plug up the blade a bit and I ended up using two (I was able to clean them later, but it was quicker to just change at the time) but damn, what a sight to see, roots embedded in the basements dirt floor out of the break and a tree in the loo. From the stub we replaced it with modern ABS pipe. Don't use that 'flexible' ribbed shit, shit tends to collect on the ribs especially at a bend and it clogs up like an artery fed a steady diet of McDonalds......(:
From one handyman to another.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:35PM (2 children)
S'what we have for sewer lines, yep. Some bits are going away on account of being unnecessary (don't need three toilets and a urinal in the laundry room) and any we have to tear up and replace will be 4" PVC. Not that I'm going to do it. I had quite enough of playing with sewer lines when I was a plumber. I'm going to contribute to the economy for that particular task.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Friday November 08 2019, @01:00AM (1 child)
I'd happily be that contribution, I just don't think you want to pay for my approximately 2300 mile one way trip to assist. :D
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday November 08 2019, @11:36PM
They shouldn't need to go to extreme, tight-quarters measures. It's all in the big middle of what will be a laundry room/bathroom and they can saw up six feet of concrete on either side of the line for all I care.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Monday November 04 2019, @05:49PM (5 children)
So an unguarded wall can't stand attacks forever? Was that somehow a surprise? Walls have always had to be guarded if you expect them to actually have a long term purpose.
From what I recall there was a competition between six different types of wall. I don't actually know now who or which design won or if there was multiple winner for different segments of the wall. I gather that a large factor was price but there was probably various forms of testing. ELTA was one of the companies that submitted a wall design and considering they are the one responsible for the walls that Israel put up I gather there is testing involved there. But also they have that added benefit of having an actual army around to also guard said walls.
If that is the case they seem to have broken the basic design specifications for the contract.
From article below. So the prototypes are 18ft, the full size should be around 30ft. All structures should be secured at least 6ft below ground. If that was the case you shouldn't just be able to saw through one bollard/post and then push it aside. If that is the case then someone fucked up when they erected the wall. There should be at least two cuts required then to push a bollard away.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/design/trump-border-wall-prototypes-latest-news-design-contract-companies-win-worth-mexicans-us-illegal-a8046371.html [independent.co.uk]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @06:03PM
$69.99 at harbor freight. That's about 150 pesos. We pay for the wall ... Mexico pays for the reciprocating saws.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by martyb on Monday November 04 2019, @06:26PM
I'm thinking the bollards are vertical 18-30-foot-tall 'slats' arranged side-by-side with 4-inch spacing, built into 'frames'. Each 'frame' can hold multiple bollards. Each 'frame' has something like a fence-post on each end that must extend at least six feet below ground level.
Do not misunderstand. I am by no means supporting the building of a wall, only pointing out that it actually might have met the specifications.
Now whether or not the specs were "good enough"... that's another matter.
"Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two." Still applies.
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday November 04 2019, @06:27PM
It doesn't matter how deep you plant the thing, it's getting cut off at the ground level.
They could stiffen it, but that would just mean it would take a sawzall and a car jack.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 04 2019, @09:52PM (1 child)
The "Berlin Wall" which extended the length of the East-West border was mostly protected by the threat of being shot on sight. The big deal in 1989 was that the east side guards laid down their guns and refused to shoot the people crossing "no man's land."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:34AM
They didn't refuse, they were ordered to let some "dissidents" through and then the media blew it up into a dismantling. At that point it was too late
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday November 04 2019, @05:55PM (41 children)
There has never been an wall built that could not be breached, avoided, undermined, or climbed over. Period. There have been lots of attempts at it, from the Berlin Wall to the Great Wall of China, but every single time, it's failed to keep people who want to cross it from doing so. Walls can help defend a particular location if they're guarded closely, but are still not impossible or even necessarily all that difficult to get through/around/over/under.
It was a stupid idea all along. If you supported it because you seriously thought it would prevent illegal immigration to the US from Latin America, you're a sucker.
The other lesson I'd mention from the Berlin Wall in particular: Walls that can keep some horrible (likely imaginary) enemy out can be used just as effectively to keep you in. Fortresses don't look that different from prisons.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday November 04 2019, @06:59PM (4 children)
We should also be asking, "Where are those sensors?" One of the selling points were sensors, which amount to a force multiplier. One guard can patrol ten times as much fence, if he has tattletales mounted in/on the fence. Infrared, visible light, motion sensors, UV, sound, whatever. That, and where is the moat with the alligators?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday November 04 2019, @07:44PM (1 child)
Oh yes, because nobody in the history of history has ever figured out how to disable a sensor. And no, that doesn't necessarily tell you where the breach is going to happen: The people trying to cross the border are organized enough to do moves like "Disable sensors at points A, B, and C simultaneously, then while border patrol is responding to those, disable sensors at point D and cross there".
My distinct impression is that the border wall plan serves its purpose equally well if it involves sharks with friggin' laser beams attached to their heads. In other words, the real point wasn't for it to be implemented or effective, but to motivate the portions of some people's psyches that enjoy inflicting cruelty on others, especially if they get to do it vicariously and not get their hands dirty themselves.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:25PM
Defense in depth, although you can pull off what you describe to distract and push through.
You're correct that no wall will stop everyone, but the point isn't to stop them. In fact there are regions where there are no walls or physical barriers at all due to terrain issues or sheer distance away from where mules and solo crossers will find profitable. A smart individual will be able to defeat the system without anything less than armed and shoot-on-sight wall standers and even then you'll get bribery. But the point is to slow and delay long enough for an effective response to be mounted with what force one has. And the effective response doesn't have to catch everyone, just stem the tide enough. Plus intimidate people from thinking about coming (which a "hey, you can Saws-All that" kind of diminished the impact of.)
This was still a stupid and ill-conceived idea and I can't wait for the Republicans to scream the next time a Democrat now creates a non-emergency national emergency.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 5, Touché) by sjames on Monday November 04 2019, @08:04PM
The Democrats proposed sensors, so those had to go.
(Score: 4, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 04 2019, @08:38PM
Alligators are protected. We do have ill-tempered sea bass though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @07:05PM (31 children)
Israel and South Korea use a few sentry guns stated at $4million per pillbox covering 1.5km each. They only take a couple of operators per two dozen boxes since the operators only need to press the red button as the computers do all the movement detection, aiming and target finding. The US-Mexico border is some 3150km so with a little overlap you should be able to get decent coverage under $2billion and a standing maintenance and personal budget under $30million a year.
Well within current budget.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @01:04PM (30 children)
So you advocate murdering men, women and children fleeing from oppression, murderous cartels, gangs and governments?
What a nice guy you must be.
Seriously, Fuck Off!
May you find yourself on the business end of your own suggestion. After all, it's well within the budget.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:03PM (29 children)
Very few would be killed. People tend to not want to go where they know they're going to get shot, so if you publicized it only the terminally stupid would get themselves a Darwin Award.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:32PM (25 children)
Christ man, advocating murder at all is so totally fucked. Makes us no better than the oppressive regimes they are fleeing from.
Perhaps that's the point?
Is that what this country is coming to?
If so, soon it will be us fleeing. Hopefully Canada doesn't follow that lead.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @02:47PM (24 children)
It's not murder though. Words have meanings and defense of a border with deadly force is not within murder's scope.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:29PM (14 children)
Then laying a deadly trap in your home to eliminate an unwanted trespasser should be completely legal. And it ain't. Even if you post you may use lethal force.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @04:56PM (5 children)
Shooting home invaders is legal throughout most of the nation, so not a very good example.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:10PM (2 children)
Mooooorrrrroooonnnnnnnn
Deadly trap != you with gun
Shooting a defenseless robber could easily get you jail time
Next up, how Buzzy is stupid and some of his greatest mistakes
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday November 06 2019, @06:29AM
FTFY.
Because Buzzy is so stupid he even doesn't do mistakes. No, seriously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:37PM
Not in any state I'm willing to live in it can't.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @07:32PM (1 child)
No, an extremely good example. The key being whether it can be done in an automated fashion (as a booby trap).
Katko v. Briney, 1971. McComb v. Connaghan, 1990. Deadly traps not under direct supervision are not legal ways to defend a home. Even most castle doctrine laws require an imminent threat to human life (so if nobody is home that does not apply, either.)
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:41PM
No, not a very good example for both the reason above and because a government protecting a border has a whopping hell of a lot more leeway in what force is justified than a homeowner. Murder is unjustified by definition.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday November 06 2019, @03:45PM (7 children)
You might've had a leg to stand on, if he'd been advocating for the use of land mines in the protection of the border. As is, he's just promoting the defense of the border of the United States of America. Though, quite a bit more radically than some.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday November 06 2019, @11:37PM (6 children)
The GP to Buzzard was advocating the use of automated sentry guns, i.e. turn-on-and-forget operation. The legal principle would be the same: firing at people regardless of the situation except where they were located and regardless of their intent to do harm. (The real reason why lethal booby traps are not lawful - no human being to make the judgment call whether shooting it warranted.) Not legal nor ethical outside an actual war zone. It's a deterrent whose power is completely unwarranted against the threat being faced. And it's behavior which advocacy of is something one would expect from the Soviet Union, East Germany, or Syria. Not the United States.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Thursday November 07 2019, @03:31PM
Ahh..., my bad. I skimmed his post(s), but didn't notice the recommendation of automated defenses. Relegating killing to automated systems, is just asking for trouble. While I support the use of lethal force where required; I also think a human being should be making the final trigger pull. Just imagine, if Nuclear Weapons were on an automated system from the beginning. We'd already be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Then again, it'd be a pretty large assumption to think we'd be alive.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:46PM (4 children)
Legal principle would not be the same. There are a hell of a lot of things a government is justified in doing that private citizens aren't. I generally disagree with that but what is, is. The government can in fact bomb a full school or hospital to kill an enemy combatant hiding inside it quite legally if there's no other way to kill him and he needs to be taken out ASAFP, for instance. It won't win them any approval points but it's justified even under "international law".
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday November 08 2019, @08:57PM (3 children)
Even as I disagree with your other point, you're right here that just because a homeowner can't do it doesn't mean the government can't. It does, however, establish a precedent that even if one is justified in killing an intruder that justification is taken away when it becomes a booby-trap and there is no human being discriminating the targets and why the trigger is pulled.
And in any case a killing would still have to be justified under the law. "The government," as in the military, can't just bomb someplace because the enemy is there - any such case would be governed by rules of engagement. For example, this incident [wikipedia.org] was regarded as a mistake after the occurrence. Even if they are whitewashed more often than not, any military of the type you describe still has to be justified under those rules and ultimately (if in an actual war and not the pseudo-wars we've been fighting the last 75 years) to the laws of war and Geneva conventions. (Which might likewise be ignored but ignoring them the justifies a signatory to go to war with you...) While the dead won't have their own voices to complain, the U.S. does end up settling such matters as quietly as possible rather than have the crimes (maybe war crimes) penalized.
Of all of Trump's bone-headed moves that should have been stopped by a rational Congress, militarizing the border comes pretty close to the top of that list. There's a reason we never had that before (only logistical supports), and it was a good one. There should have been a posse comitatus lawsuit.
But lots and lotsa shoulds, and the one you're square on the nose that what is, is, and a single citizen is not going to change it. Still, I hope the first time a civilian is killed by a soldier on the border that the pictures are plastered up all over the news with big bold print saying, "Trump did this!" And for me, I don't care if it was a drug dealer badass - let the Border Patrol police the border as they should. Oh, well.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday November 08 2019, @11:42PM (2 children)
No, it really doesn't. The military still routinely uses unmanned mines to this very day and border protection is a military function if ever there was one.
And no, military action does not have to be justified under laws that apply to civilians. Creating a minefield, especially one with big fucking warning signs posted all around it, is not even sort of murder. Maybe suicide but there is no stretch of the imagination that could classify it as murder any more than a person jumping off an overpass into interstate traffic could be said to have been murdered.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday November 11 2019, @04:50PM (1 child)
I'll just disagree. The enforcement of the borders is in no way a function or duty of the military unless the country is in a declared war. There is no reason for combat troops or military police to be stationed on the border unless we go to war with Canada or Mexico. And no, I do not want my country to place landmines on its borders as if this were Korea or cold-war Berlin. We can be better than that.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 11 2019, @05:32PM
I don't either. It's a silly, wasteful, overkill idea. It's not immoral or illegal though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @04:14PM (8 children)
Do you really want to live in a country that values life so little?
Defense against armed invaders sure. Deadly force against unarmed asylum seekers? Sounds more like a war crime.
"Examples of war crimes include intentionally killing civilians or prisoners, torturing, destroying civilian property, taking hostages, performing a perfidy, raping, using child soldiers, pillaging, declaring that no quarter will be given, and seriously violating the principles of distinction and proportionality, and military necessity."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime [wikipedia.org]
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:01PM (7 children)
You probably pass a hundred things a day that could get deadly force used on you but you don't go near them/do them and you don't even get pissy about the vast majority of them. The threat of deadly force is not unusual in your life, you just choose not to see it.
And, no, protecting and controlling your national borders is not a war crime. That is a recognized right and even duty globally acknowledged to every sovereign nation. Except by a small minority of very vocal idiots.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Tuesday November 05 2019, @06:21PM (5 children)
The DOD disagrees with you. These got a bit more strict since my service days. Only posting the relevant part. It's long. These are not Rules of Engagement used in a war zone. But the rules used for the military in a domestic situation and would apply to border protection or a campus riot equally. When I served we still used the rules that allowed the Kent State Massacre to occur. They have changed significantly since then.
Department of Defense, U.S. Army, U.S. Northern Command
U.S. Military Civil Disturbance Standing Rules for the Use of Force (SRUF)
August 12, 2011
RULE 4: LIMITATIONS ON THE USE OF FORCE – A SERVICE MEMBER will use force of any kind only as a last resort and, if used, the force should be the minimum necessary to accomplish the mission.
Rule 4.1: REASONABLE – Any use of force must be reasonable in intensity, duration, and magnitude to counter the threat based on all the circumstances.
Rule 4.2: SAFETY – Exercise due regard for the safety of innocent bystanders when using any type of force.
Rule 4.3: WARNING SHOTS – Warning shots are NOT authorized.
RULE 5: USE OF NON-DEADLY FORCE – A SERVICE MEMBER may use non-deadly force to stop a threat when it is reasonable:
to control a situation and accomplish the mission,
to provide protection for himself and other DoD personnel,
to defend non-DoD persons in the vicinity, but only IF directly related to the assigned mission, or
to defend designated protected property.
RULE 6: USE OF DEADLY FORCE IN SELF-DEFENSE, DEFENSE OF OTHERS, AND DEFENSE OF PROPERTY – A SERVICE MEMBER may use deadly force to stop a threat only when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed and it reasonably appears necessary:
to protect DoD forces when a commander reasonably believes a person poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm,
to protect yourself and other DoD forces from the imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm,
to protect non-DoD persons in the vicinity from the imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, but only IF directly related to the assigned mission,
to prevent the actual theft or sabotage of assets vital to national security or inherently dangerous property, and
to prevent the sabotage of a national critical infrastructure.
Rule 6.1: USE OF DEADLY FORCE NOT AUTHORIZED – Deadly force is not authorized to disperse a crowd, stop looting, enforce a curfew, or protect non-designated property.
RULE 7: USE OF DEADLY FORCE AGAINST A SERIOUS OFFENSE – A SERVICE MEMBER may use deadly force, but only IF it is directly related to the assigned mission AND it reasonably appears necessary:
to prevent a serious crime against any person that involves imminent threat of death of serious bodily harm,
to prevent the escape of a prisoner where probable cause indicates he has committed or attempted to commit a serious offense and would pose an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to DoD forces or others in the vicinity,
to arrest or apprehend a person who, there is probable cause to believe, has committed a serious offense that involved imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm or sabotage of designated protected property.
RULE 8: USE OF DEADLY FORCE AGAINST A VEHICULAR THREAT – A SERVICE MEMBER may fire his weapon at a moving land or water vehicle when he reasonably believes the vehicle poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to DoD forces or to non-DoD persons in the vicinity, but only IF doing so is directly related to the assigned mission.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday November 07 2019, @10:48PM (4 children)
Border control is not a civil disturbance.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Friday November 08 2019, @01:08AM (3 children)
Truce?
Two old guys butting heads over ideological differences could go on forever and I'm sure we could both find better uses for out time than trying to convince each other of things neither one of us is going to change our minds on.
Plus, I've been fighting Xfinity for two days over my internet that drops out a dozen times a day now, preventing me from completing the next module in an online class on top of a family emergency a few days ago that got me riled up in the first place. Just not feelin' it if you know what I mean. We'll debate again I'm sure but for now:
Peace out and good luck with your restoration. :)
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday November 08 2019, @09:00PM
Oh come on.... the popcorn is all popped already!
But seriously, it (and my above with TMB) I find to be interesting conversation.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday November 08 2019, @11:54PM (1 child)
Pax. If you're putting any thought into it except when you're checking messages, you're taking it a lot more personally than I am anyway. I'm not particularly fond of being miserable all the time, so I don't spend any time at all thinking about political stuffs except when I'm here on SN or when The Roomie won't STFU about it. The only good thing about politics is it provides an endless supply of things worth arguing about.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday November 09 2019, @06:02AM
Nah, I have a life as well, as shown by our other totally off-topic conversation on this very thread about your restoration project. Hey, an interesting ideological debate however.
Pax Soylentil and good day!
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 06 2019, @02:37AM
Buzzy schooled by someone more educated. Again. Don't worry, the only difference between you and me in this case is I wouldn't be puffing up pretending I know shit about military regs.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday November 05 2019, @03:28PM (2 children)
Terminal stupidity happens, man. Take a look at the statistics of how many people die from dehydration attempting to cross every year (plus the idea now that providing humanitarian water supplies to avoid that is 'aiding and abetting' the crossers). Heat exposure in the summer and cold exposure in the winter (people can get hypothermic if doing night winter crossings),drowning in the transition periods from "desert monsoon" flash flood activity... the ideal window is only a few weeks.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 05 2019, @05:03PM (1 child)
This doesn't particularly concern me. I mean I'd render first aid and call a Mexican ambulance if I was present but you can't fix stupid. You should not treat everyone like complete morons to protect those who are.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @09:52PM
Well, there you have it, guys. It looks like the Buzztard is giving all of us permission to let him die from his own terminal stupidity. Couldn't happen to a nicer fella.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2019, @07:33PM (3 children)
Exactly. Walls don't keep people out; they slow the attempt. Any castle can be breached with enough time, the goal is to give that time. You turn a 5-second "walk in" into a 5-minute "get ladder, set it, make it stable, climb over it." Ideally, that 5 minutes would be long enough for a human to notice and foil the attempt. Obviously you would need to have a human check every 4.5-ish minutes, though, for that wall to help.
Another way to think of it, imagine spending $10 Billion to build a 1000-mile wall. That's spending about $5,000 per yard. So imagine an attacker spends $10,000 to breach the wall. They've spent 1/1000000 less than you, but have locally invested more resources, so likely will be able to defeat your efforts.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday November 04 2019, @09:04PM (2 children)
Well, there were castles that were never breached before the days of gunpowder. These days, though...
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday November 04 2019, @10:33PM
That of course has a lot to do with how serious a siege they were under and what their garrison was when they were attacked, but castle technology was never perfect. For example, a rampaging mob of peasants were able to take over the Tower of London without that much trouble in 1381.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05 2019, @12:29AM
Please investigate military and political history. Yes, there are castles which have not been breached, but that was due to political and military reasons rather than them being made out of indestructible unobtanium and being architecturally perfect. You can find numerous youtube videos, books, websites, and university courses on medieval architecture, but the short summary is as follows...
There are numerous ways to breach a castle, the simplest being an earthen ramp. You get your 5,000 strong army, tell them "each man go to the field over there, get a barrel of earth, bring it over here," and you pile it up to make a giant ramp which goes over the wall. There are other ways as well, such as ladders, siege towers, battering rams, undermining the walls, or other technologies.
The point of a castle is simply to delay attacks substantially (as well as a safe spot from which to launch skirmishing attacks, but that's beside the point here). A well-stocked castle could last months, maybe years. The idea is that you hole up for a few months while your nearby allies rally together, call in their forces, form an army, and drive off the attackers. You would stay in your castle for months-to-years, stalling until your allies bring you relief. However, if you had no possibility of relief, you would be bound to fall eventually.
Suffice it to say, the only reason a castle would have not fallen is that the local population was stable enough, and regional feudal alliances were strong enough, to prevent a wide-scale attack.