from the artificial-islands-part-of-real-dispute dept.
US warships sail in disputed South China Sea amid tensions
Navy warships have sailed near islands claimed by China in the disputed South China Sea twice in the past few days, the United States military told Reuters on Thursday, at a time of tension between the world's two largest economies.
The busy waterway is one of a number of flashpoints in the US-China relationship, which include a trade war, US sanctions, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Earlier this week during high-level talks, China called on the US military to stop flexing its muscles in the South China Sea and adding "new uncertainties" over democratic Taiwan, which is seen as a wayward province and claimed by China.
[...] On Wednesday, the littoral combat ship Gabrielle Giffords travelled within 12 nautical miles of Mischief Reef[*], Commander Reann Mommsen, a spokeswoman for the US Navy's Seventh Fleet, told Reuters.
On Thursday, the destroyer Wayne E. Meyer challenged restrictions on innocent passage in the Paracel islands[**], Mommsen said.
"These missions are based in the rule of law and demonstrate our commitment to upholding the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea and airspace guaranteed to all nations," she added.
[...] China claims almost all the energy-rich waters of the South China Sea, where it has established military outposts on artificial islands.
However, Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam also have claims to parts of the sea.
The United States accuses China of militarising the South China Sea and trying to intimidate Asian neighbours who might want to exploit its extensive oil and gas reserves.
[*] Mischief Reef
[**] Paracel Islands
Related Stories
China's devious move under cover of virus
As outbreaks debilitate the US navy, there are fears China may be using the coronavirus pandemic as cover for asserting control over the South China Sea.
A Vietnamese fishing boat has been rammed and sunk. Military aircraft have landed at its artificial-island fortresses. And large-scale naval exercises has let everyone know China's navy is still pushing the boundaries, hard.
Meanwhile, the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier strike group has retreated from the contested waterway in an unscheduled return to Guam – with hundreds of cases of COVID-19 on board.
China's Peoples Liberation Army knows this presents an opportunity.
"The outbreak of COVID-19 has significantly lowered the US Navy's warship deployment capability in the Asia-Pacific region," an article on its official website declares.
The website insists not a single one of its soldiers, sailors or pilots had contracted COVID-19. Instead, the crisis had served to strengthen the combat readiness and resolve of the Chinese military.
That has international affairs analysts worried that even a short-term withdrawal of US and international from the East and South China Seas could give Beijing the opportunity it has been waiting for.
"I think China is exploiting the US Navy's coronavirus challenges to improve its position in the South China Sea by giving the appearance it can and will operate there at will while the US is hamstrung," former Pacific Command Joint Intelligence Centre director Carl Schuster told CNN.
Previously:
(2020-01-09) China Initiates Conflict with Indonesia in the South China Sea
(2019-12-21) Malaysian Top Envoy: China's 'Nine-Dash Line' Claim 'Ridiculous'
(2019-11-22) US Warships Sail in Disputed South China Sea Amid Tensions
(2019-05-14) China Builds New Type 002 Mega Carrier as the Age of Sea Power Wanes
(2018-05-13) China Begins Sea Trials for its First Domestically Developed Aircraft Carrier
(2017-12-24) World's Largest Amphibious Plane in Production Takes Flight in China
(2017-05-25) US Warship Challenges China's Claims in South China Sea
(2017-04-26) China Launches Aircraft Carrier
(2017-03-14) Japan to Send its Biggest Warship to the South China Sea
(2017-01-13) Chinese State Media Boasts About its New Electronic Reconnaissance Ship
(2016-07-14) China's South China Sea Claims Rejected By "Binding" but Unenforceable Tribunal Ruling
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @07:53PM (1 child)
All of that area had been under control of imperial Japan, including Korea and China and the Philippines. It was Japanese by conquest. (if that isn't legit, then large parts of most modern nations aren't legit, so don't go there)
With the defeat of Japan, that area belonged to the USA.
The USA split out the parts as separate countries, but really didn't take the South China Sea seriously. We never specified who got it. The answer would be "nobody", except that there are some tiny islands that legally are considered land. Without those islands, it'd just be international water. With the islands, it can belong to somebody. The USA never specified who.
If the USA wanted to liven things up, it could make a claim that the islands were never given away. They are USA. That would be inconsistent with our history of treating it as international water, but who cares? We should do that, because China is asshoe.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Friday November 22 2019, @08:21PM
I mean usually "by conquest" loses it's de facto legitimacy when you immediately proceed to lose a war.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Sulla on Friday November 22 2019, @07:53PM (3 children)
We have seen no evidence they have done this. The artificial islands build with military installations and short-range missile batteries are purely for self defense against the aggressive Vietnam and Philippines owned fishing ships.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 23 2019, @03:55AM (2 children)
Here's counterevidence [un.org]. It's a statement that the Chinese government made to the UN along with a relevant map showing the above area affected.
Notice the emphasis on "seabed and subsoil" assets. Further, you admit "self-defense" against "aggressive" fishing ships, which aren't known for their offensive military capabilities, which fulfills the requirement of intimidation of said neighbors.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Sulla on Saturday November 23 2019, @07:36AM (1 child)
http://i.imgur.com/F636xiP.gif [imgur.com]
Can't find a good ascii for it
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @08:21PM
Well done!
Pwnage could only have been done better in KSP [wikipedia.org] :)
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday November 22 2019, @07:55PM (33 children)
China should fire upon those ships. It would be a casus belli to discover that one US nuclear sub can bring an abrupt end to 5,000 years of Chinese civilization.
We have, after all, been in a 70 year dance over the disposition of Chinese sovereignty. It would neatly resolve the question.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday November 22 2019, @08:13PM (9 children)
But....but,...I LIKE Chinese food!!!! I could eat it, like, every 30 minutes!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @08:25PM
Human centipede?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday November 22 2019, @08:37PM (1 child)
<no-sarcasm>I prefer Mexican food.</no-sarcasm>
Trump promised during campaign that if Hillary won there would be a taco truck on every street corner. I want my taco trucks!
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @10:57PM
Ummmm, I live in Albuquerque. There has been a taco truck on just about every street corner since I moved here in 2009. As per usual, The Orange One don't know bupkis. And he (still) needs to get out more.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday November 22 2019, @10:08PM (3 children)
And with the added bonus of keeping the local feral cat population in check.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday November 23 2019, @01:02AM (2 children)
Someone needs to explain to you what "eating pussy" means...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:19AM (1 child)
RedTube would love a recording of this
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday November 23 2019, @11:21PM
They have lots. Very few involving men I bet, but just search and you'll find.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 23 2019, @11:23AM (1 child)
Don't worry, Gaark. I should have spoken more precisely. It would end Chinese civilization on the mainland. There are 300 million people in the Chinese diaspora across SE Asia and elsewhere. Your General Tso's is safe.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday November 23 2019, @02:15PM
OH, SWEET JEEBUZ....SPANK YOU!
:)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ikanreed on Friday November 22 2019, @08:24PM (7 children)
God I hope you are among the casualties of the pointless nuclear holocaust you're proposing. The US isn't the only country with boomers, you absolute dipshit.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday November 22 2019, @08:35PM (1 child)
Shirley the Chinese could never anticipate the possibility of a sudden sneak nuclear attack and have plans for such an event.
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(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @11:36PM
https://www.rospotrebnadzor.ru/about/info/news/news_details.php?ELEMENT_ID=13136 [rospotrebnadzor.ru]
Google translate it and see how close we are getting to the precipice.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by RS3 on Friday November 22 2019, @08:38PM (2 children)
Hey now, you make an absolutely correct point, but no need for the ad hominem. You notice his username, right? His post fits, right? It takes precisely 666 megatons of nukes to holocaust the planet. /s
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:22AM (1 child)
we are talking about the chinese today not islam
leave the devil warshippers out of it
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @08:25PM
Why are you maligning Jahweh?
Or are you just too ignorant to know that Jahweh == Hashem == Jehovah == Allah [wikipedia.org]?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 23 2019, @11:21AM (1 child)
I live in Brooklyn. Think my money is where my mouth is?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @08:29PM
Where the Chinese restaurants have partitions to protect the employees from the natives and the PFR flows freely.
It's long gone now, but I always loved the name of the place on Court Street between Boerum Place and Bergen Street called "Lung Fat." It just sounded so tasty!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by legont on Friday November 22 2019, @10:57PM (14 children)
China also has good subs.
In addition, China's medium range rockets are currently faster and have longer range. In practice it means that China can take down the US aircraft carrier group, while the US has no means to respond short of strategic nuclear strike.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by deimtee on Saturday November 23 2019, @01:24AM (13 children)
I'm fairly sure that if someone took out an entire US carrier group, that the US would respond. If the only thing that would work is nukes, then nuked they will be.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @03:16AM (5 children)
Imbecile. The US may as well nuke themselves. As that will be the result.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @07:39AM (4 children)
If Russia had to pick a side, would they pick the one that just wants to poke them with a stick for the next hundred years, or the one that is moving people into their eastern territories and will eventually annex it wholesale like the Russians did to Crimea.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @08:25AM (3 children)
Thanks to the US sanctions, Russia has already made this choice. It is done and can't really be reversed. The whole eastern Siberia region is being built as part of China's economy; using Chinese money mind you.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 23 2019, @11:31AM (2 children)
I wouldn't say so. Russia is playing a weak hand against a superpower, another imminent superpower on its eastern doorstep, and potentially another to the south (though those guys are a little preoccupied with their Pakistani rivals). They have a huge, resource rich territory in Siberia with very few people in it. Already 20 years ago the heirs apparent to power in Beijing were talking about annexing it. That has to scare them a lot more than all the rest.
My guess is they'll take the Chinese money to build up what they can't now, and then kick them out and say thanks very much when they feel they're able. They'll have to fight to do that, and I reckon they know that. I surmise that's what's behind all the news lately about Russia developing superweapons.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:32PM (1 child)
I wish you were right - I really do - but it does not look so at least currently. I think a China-Russia union is more likely, which would include most of the former south soviet republics. Russia tried to accommodate West for 25 years and failed. The feeling over there is "enough is enough".
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24 2019, @06:49PM
It's too bad white people can't stop fighting among ourselves. We need a Aryan Supranational Alliance,
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @08:32AM (6 children)
Are you saying the US is willing to end humanity over a few ships in the middle of nowhere?
Regardless of your feeling about it, the whole point of an aircraft carrier group is to apply force without nukes. This goal can't be achived with China currently so the carriers over there are simply a joke. We are playing morons to the whole world.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 23 2019, @11:35AM (2 children)
A nuclear exchange with China would not end humanity. It would not be fun, but humanity would survive.
I think the most current, salient aspect of the carriers in that area is that China is attempting to arrogate the entire South China Sea to itself. It's why it's building up those reefs. The US carriers sailing through those waters are a means to brush them back. It's as much to help out its allies in ASEAN as it is Korea and Japan.
These days ASEAN is feeling might uneasy about Chinese hegemony. Remember, Vietnam fought a war with China after they were done kicking the US out, a war they won. Those guys even offered recently to lease Cam Ranh Bay back to the US Navy. That's extraordinary.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:38PM
Forgive me, but the only reason for an aircraft carrier existence is to apply force without using nukes. This ability is lost over there so sending the group is similar to riding horses in front of enemy tanks. Yes, it is a very honorable deed which was tried by many militaries, but the result was always disappointing.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:50PM
Forgot to mention, the main result of a war with China would be Russia being the only remaining superpower. Perhaps it is the real goal of Russian policy - do during the WWIII what the US did during WWII and enjoy the results.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Saturday November 23 2019, @01:19PM (2 children)
I'm not USian, but it is obvious that they would not tolerate the sort of threat that eliminated a carrier group.* I said nukes would be used in response if that was the only effective option.
Also, a nuclear war will not end humanity. It might end the current political world order, but humans are tough and tenacious. They will survive, even if a nuclear war kills nine-tenths of them.
*note the past tense. Carriers have upwards of 5000 people on them. Sinking one is like nuking a medium-small town. If someone manages to sink a US carrier, they will be nuked if there is no other option to destroy them. Up to that point there will be a lot of hot air, but when the big ships start sinking, expect retaliation.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 23 2019, @06:42PM (1 child)
So, what's the point of having an aircraft carrier? Why don't we put some reservists on cruse ships and send over there for a little training?
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Monday November 25 2019, @12:17AM
It's an interesting point on the military landscape. Sailing a carrier group around isn't regarded as a nuclear threat, even though it is, because they have so many other force projection options. Sinking a carrier group, on the other hand, would be regarded as a nuclear level attack.
In other words, a carrier group is protected by MAD, without actually provoking it.
A few reservists on a cruise ship would have no such protection.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @08:10PM
>Asian neighbours who who might want to exploit its extensive oil and gas reserves.
For stopping this short-sightedness of your neighbors
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday November 22 2019, @08:25PM (6 children)
Trump says he might veto legislation that aims to protect human rights in Hong Kong because bill could affect China trade talks [washingtonpost.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @08:32PM
From article:
417 to 1 in congress. Unanimous in senate. Here's hoping they stick to it if needed.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday November 22 2019, @08:34PM (4 children)
<no-sarcasm>
I expected this days ago when it sounded like he would sign it. Seriously.
It just seemed too out of character to sign a bill to protect human rights of an oppressor that treats Trump nicely.
</no-sarcasm>
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(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday November 22 2019, @08:42PM (1 child)
Vetoing it and it getting overridden would make him look weak. So obviously that's what I'm hoping for!
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday November 22 2019, @11:00PM
It would also take the war blame from him. He will just get all the glory.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 22 2019, @11:07PM (1 child)
They haven't been treating him all that nicely. After all, as DeathMonkey points out, Trump has yet to work out a trade deal that would end his tariff war with China. No, I think it is because Trump genuinely thinks that human rights stuff is just so much namby-pamby, liberal bullshit.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Saturday November 23 2019, @10:47AM
It is BS, but not because it has anything to do with human rights, which it doesn't. Congress has no ability to "protect human rights" in Hong Kong. They can't even do it here. They are just grandstanding.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Friday November 22 2019, @08:31PM (1 child)
In a very recent SN article, China is filling its landfills too quickly.
Can't they just build new islands out of what would go into the landfill?
Build a land bridge to Taiwan.
Start accepting foreign plastics again and make it a floating bridge.
Then the US could focus on trying it's very best to sail into the area between Hong Kong and China.
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(Score: 3, Informative) by deimtee on Saturday November 23 2019, @01:30AM
China has an area of around 9,500,000 km2. That overflowing dump is 0.7 km2.
There are a lot of problems with toxic trash and recycling, but running out of space is not one of them.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 23 2019, @02:59PM
we just gotta get along with china for the next 30 years ... errr ... 20 years peacefully.
after that they will so busy repairing and upgrading the infra they built shoddy and in a hurry 30 ... errr .... 20 years before that there will be no time for "war".