Jury sides with Elon Musk in "pedo guy" defamation case
A Los Angeles federal jury has found Elon Musk not liable for defamation in a lawsuit brought by British caver Vernon Unsworth. Musk dubbed Unsworth a "pedo guy" in a tweet last year, but argued in court that he meant this as a generic insult—not as an accusation that Unsworth was a pedophile.
"My faith in humanity is restored," Musk reportedly said on his way out of court.
Musk and Unsworth have been trading insults since last July, when Unsworth mocked a miniature submarine SpaceX engineers created to help rescue a dozen boys trapped in a cave in Thailand (it didn't arrive in time to be useful). In an interview with CNN, Unsworth said that Musk should "stick his submarine where it hurts."
Musk responded with a tweet labeling Unsworth a "pedo guy" and vowing to prove that the submarine would have been able to squeeze through the narrowest passages in the cave.
Musk's defamation win may reset legal landscape for social media
The victory by Tesla Inc's outspoken chief executive over a Twitter message describing a British cave explorer as "pedo guy" has raised the bar for what amounts to libel online, according to some legal experts.
Musk defended his comments as trivial taunts made on a social media platform that he argued everyone views as a world of unfiltered opinion, which is protected as free speech, rather than statements of fact.
"I think this verdict reflects that there is a feeling that internet tweets and chats are more like casual conversation whether you call it opinion or rhetoric or hyperbole and should not be punished in a lawsuit," said Chip Babcock, a lawyer who defends against defamation lawsuits.
Several other attorneys who specialize in defamation cases privately expressed surprise at the outcome of what they viewed as a strong case for the cave explorer, Vernon Unsworth. They attributed it to Musk's fame and the perceived youthfulness of the jury.
But they also agreed it would shift the legal landscape, undercutting the cases that would have seemed viable before the trial while defendants would use it to try to reduce possible settlement values.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:31AM (7 children)
Of course I mean that as a generic insult.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:43AM (3 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:03AM (2 children)
It's a good thing he didn't say he was smoking a fag (cigarette)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:03AM (1 child)
twinkies and fags alongside his good buddies Tim Cook and Peter Thiel. I also heard his late friend Jeffery Epstein had a really special island, just for the boys.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:55PM
Careful, or some fairy will happen by, and make all you funny boys go POOF!
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @12:16PM (1 child)
so to recap, insults sorted by gravity:
you silly: *
idiot: **
son of a bitch: ***
pedo: ****
cybertruck designer: **********************************
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:22PM
cybertruck owner: ∞
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:24PM
Ironically, the stock-manipulating con artist in question was found "Not Liable" and "Not Likeable" almost simultaneously.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:48AM (19 children)
I so very much wanted to see Musk given a huge slapdown.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:56AM (13 children)
A jury in L.A. decided this. Probably one was a Musk fanboi and insisted that he would find for Musk no matter what. The rest ate the shitty soup, decided "fuck this shit," and took the easy way out.
But this does set a precedent. Apparently Musk thinks that calling someone a "pedo guy" is perfectly acceptable, especially if they insult you first. He better watch out because that could become the preferred insult directed his way.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:01AM (12 children)
Would be funny to see every news story about him start with "Pedo guy Musk".
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:04AM (6 children)
Barbara Hudson is a pedo guy.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:15AM (5 children)
If he had asked for $50k it would have been easy. $500k was probably too much, but maybe not. Almost $200 million? Any jury would say "fuck off."
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:23AM (4 children)
I don't think so, since Musk is a billonaire. He should have to pay enough money to cause him financial pain.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @07:21AM (3 children)
Fines are punitive, damages are compensation for, well... damage.
You normally don't scale either one because of the wealth of the culprit but if you did, it would only make sense for fines.
(Score: 3, Informative) by maxwell demon on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:23AM (2 children)
Not everywhere. [wikipedia.org]
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday December 09 2019, @12:25AM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 09 2019, @04:49PM
Thankfully, things are still only known to cause cancer in the State of California.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:11AM (1 child)
I think part of the reason for the decision is that Musk did not name the guy. Might have gone differently, if he had.
I'd hoped this case would have been able to be held in the UK. The UK libel laws are batshit insane, but Musk would have almost certainly lost in UK courts.
And, the point goes to the rich asshole-- again.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @03:13AM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @05:11AM (2 children)
Calling a middle aged expat who ran away to SE Asia a pedoguy is pretty in line with expats who run away to SE Asia. Accurate descriptors are not defamation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:59PM (1 child)
Your logic is weak.
A lot of pedos go to SE Asia, so anyone who goes to SE Asia must be a pedo. I don't suppose you do well on either math or logic tests.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09 2019, @06:10PM
Stereotyping isn't always correct, but it's generally correct most of the time, which is good enough for most people.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:59AM (4 children)
While I wouldn't mind seeing a slapdown of Musk, $190M? C'mon, like this guy would even bring $19M in business in the rest of his lifetime. He claims the "pedo guy" thing destroyed his livelihood, I bet if we check back in 5 or 10 years he's going to be grossing more off the publicity he gained from this experience than he ever would have made from his prior line of business development.
In any event, I agree with the jury insofar as "tweets are normal speech" - you don't get sued for calling some guy on the street a "stone cold mother fucking killer" - which could be construed as accusing them of murder, philandering, and heartlessness all at once. On the other hand, if you take the time to write an article for publication in the local newspaper, with detailed references and supposed proof of not only the person's calm cool collected demeanor, several convincing pieces of evidence that they have in fact philandered around, and some pretty convincing stories of people who died and how they may have killed them - that's a different thing altogether.
When every word you say can be picked up by a constellation of microphones, auto-translated to text, recorded for posterity, published globally, etc. the "written word" takes on a very different connotation than it had 300 years ago.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:04AM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 08 2019, @03:25AM
I was thinking that the ludicrous sum was somehow behind-the-scenes negotiated, something to the effect of: "Hey, Elon, how about you throw my legal team their fees in free Roadsters or whatever, and I'll agree to sue you for an amount so sky high that it'll be tossed by the jury immediately? We won't make you spend more than one day in court, we'll both bag the publicity and its benefits, and you won't end up paying the $20M in damages that both our legal teams know I've got a 50/50 shot at winning from this jury we pulled."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by edIII on Monday December 09 2019, @02:59AM (1 child)
Tweets are not normal speech. It's the same channel used by the Office of the President of the United States Of AMERICA.
Therefore, Musk's Tweets certainly carry the same imprimatur, and can be treated as statements of facts wholly bereft of any cynicism, mendacity, or ill intent.
Give the guy a billion :)
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 09 2019, @11:45AM
Commander in chief: pundit of toilet flushes. Careful though, no matter how bad you think it is now - it can always get worse.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:50AM (1 child)
The United States of America will never fall. We're going to donkey-punch you motherfuckers into the next century. Do you hear me, NATO?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @10:33PM
US will die exceptionally or exceptionalist, but die it will - it's already an oversqueezed lemon
It will be replaced by another bully, unfortunately.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Mojibake Tengu on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:58AM (14 children)
Privileged top class caste persons like Elon Musk can bring out whichever public tricks or stunts without any consequences.
Respect Authorities. Know your social status. Woke responsibly.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:20AM (13 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Mojibake Tengu on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:10AM (3 children)
If a justice depends on someone being pissed or not, that's not a justice, in my universe. That's capriciousness.
Respect Authorities. Know your social status. Woke responsibly.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @12:21PM (1 child)
>capriciousness
AKA American justice.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @10:35PM
Clearly you don't have kids.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @08:54PM
If the guy had been smart he'd have copyrighted the term pedo guy and sold T-shirts with Musks face and "pedo guy" on it, and let Musk sue him instead. Musk is a public person and he's associated with the term.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Sunday December 08 2019, @06:38AM
A better question would be "did the guy deserve to get a punishment that stings?"
If the answer is yes and the plaintiff only deserves $100k then make musk donate $189,900,000 to the court's poor box.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:29AM
The correct way to deal with it would have been to render a verdict with a reasonable fine.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 08 2019, @03:50PM (6 children)
Like: $600K for an 80 year (retired) woman's broken ankle?
That's not a damage demand, that's a recent out of court settlement by an insurance company for a he-said she-said case of falling down on the sidewalk. Tort reform is long overdue.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @05:17PM (5 children)
The amount might seem excessive at first glance, but seeing as she's already made it to 80, there's a decent probability she'll make 100.
After the lawyers take their cut, that leaves her with less than $400,000 spread over 20 years. Or $20,000 a year. When you get old, your bones don't heal properly, so she's most likely going to be in pain every time she walks, and even times when she doesn't walk.
The reduced mobility also means spending more on cabs to get around. The whole settlement works out to ~$2/hr. Now if she had been at fault, the insurer would have gone to court. The insurer's client was at fault, and they escape having to deal with chronic pain the rest of their lives. How much would you pay to escape such?
If there were a treatment that could avoid that, the insurer would have paid that instead, along with an amount for temporary pain and inconvenience. Chronic pain and incapacity is a bitch that just eats at you. Try it some time.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 08 2019, @07:32PM (4 children)
I've had it for 40 years - slide tackled by an asshole kid in highschool, under near zero supervision of the gym coach, chronic knee pain and moderate disability for 40 years and likely 40 more to come. Net settlement likely if that case had even been brought to court? 0.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @08:31PM (3 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:19PM (2 children)
And I'll repeat: Tort reform is long overdue. I wholeheartedly agree that the days of a $10K settlement for a wrongful death involving corporate negligence (maybe $100K when adjusted for inflation) were a bit too business friendly, but the sheer volume of advertising supported by the ambulance chasing industry is evidence enough that there is too much money flowing too freely in that system.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:46PM (1 child)
While we're dreaming, why not update the constitution?
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 09 2019, @11:38AM
This just in: fox doesn't want a door on the henhouse either...
Since we've abolished the draft, maybe it's time to reinstate selective service but serve terms in the legislature instead?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:00AM
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kultur/diverses/eat-shit-bob/story/29675897 [tagesanzeiger.ch]
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @02:57AM (9 children)
Soylentnews, the site usually full of harcore absolute free speech champions, is now full of people buthurt because a court decided that Elon Musk also has the right to free speech. Hypocrits much ?
Why are you so pissed ? Because Musk is a liberal and only conservatives should benefit from first amendment protection ?
You're all jealous because he can bring home hot goddesses like Amber Heard, and you never will...
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 08 2019, @03:21AM
This isn't a free speech issue. 2 assholes in court, one suing the other for damages over insults that wouldn't even be in order if he had been murdered. Jurors decide matters of fact, and the fact is that $190 million is just as big an insult.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday December 08 2019, @05:52AM
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday December 08 2019, @10:09AM (1 child)
This is nothing. At Ars it is a mix of disbelief at the verdict, billionaire bashing, and crying tears of blood trying to combine the appropriate levels of Musk worship and condemnation:
And then you have a few full on Muskovites:
I hear the Reddit comments are also gold, but I haven't looked for them yet.
As to your point, defamation is a real thing that can and should be punished by our courts when appropriate. The jury was not convinced by Unsworth's case. Now what we're left with is a salty court of public opinion. So we'll see a lot of "Pedo Guy" over the next few weeks, but it will tail off over the years and only a few Musk haters will dredge this up. Actually, Musk will do something fresh to piss people off and that's what will be talked about.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by edIII on Monday December 09 2019, @03:21AM
This all comes down to something very subjective, and hence, the extreme divisions and opinions on this.
Was it a statement of fact, or was it sardonic insults and ad hominem?
I think most people know that the more offensive a clearly baseless statement of fact is, the more useful it is as weapon against others. We learned that at recess in the 1st grade. A Booger eater was doomed to popularity hell. So Musk saying something like that in an existing context of a verbal confrontation, can reasonably be seen as him not making statements of fact. No reasonable person would believe he was serious, and possessed real knowledge as to facts showing the dude was in fact fucking children in Thailand.
I highly doubt Musk was making statements he wanted taken as fact, or believed that anybody would believe him either.
If Musk was being interviewed by the press and stated it as fact, and it wasn't clear he was insulting the guy, then yeah. Especially if he asked to confirm what he said as a fact. Libel then all day long. Being an asshole on the Internet though hardly qualifies as libel.
Otherwise, there's enough in YouTube comments to fuel hordes of lawyers till the End Times.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @11:16AM
Really?, I wants me some of the kool-aid you're drinking there pal...
Here's a hint, that 'herd label' is for the livestock only, not the farmers..
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @12:41PM (3 children)
Speak for yourself. what I got from this is that I can safely generically insult Musk as pedo guy Musk. "My faith in humanity is restored". Plus I get to discover some guy is named Chip Babcock. Truly not a wasted day.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @12:47PM (2 children)
uh, forgot to summon the power of anagrams too
DoPe Guy Musk = Smoked Guy Up
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:39PM (1 child)
Reusing a word is lazy.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:30PM
But it is a different guy...
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday December 08 2019, @03:51AM (1 child)
Do we have pedo guys driving pedo mobiles here? Speak up.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 09 2019, @05:11PM
'eh, I knew a guy that was teased, because he drove one of those vans that doesn't have windows in the back. Essentially, a pedo van. Yes, very immature, but the guy wasn't a pedo. Also, no one thought of him as a pedo, even with the teasing.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @04:45AM (1 child)
i'd call a grown up in charge of kids walking past a sign posted at cave entrance that says "DANGER: flash floods possible" and into the cave a moron.
walking multiple kilometers into the cave, would constitute as a "very big moron".
doing all this during the rainy season would fall short a micrometer of "suicidal with intend of collateral homicide".
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Sunday December 08 2019, @08:14AM
Yeah but that wasn't the guy who received this insult. That guy was in Thailand for reasons other than leading those particular boys into that particular cave.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by takyon on Sunday December 08 2019, @10:17AM (1 child)
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-did-not-defame-british-caver-pedo-guy-tweet-n1097351 [nbcnews.com]
Huehhehheheeeehehehehhe eheheh hheehh
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-17/prince-andrew-bombs-in-bbc-interview-raising-more-questions [bloomberg.com]
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/02/uk/prince-andrew-virginia-giuffre-panorama-intl-gbr/index.html [cnn.com]
https://nypost.com/2019/12/07/second-epstein-victim-says-she-had-sex-with-prince-andrew/ [nypost.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Touché) by Bot on Sunday December 08 2019, @12:27PM
“Kings and queens and prime ministers don't stand next to pedophiles.”
I parse it as a convoluted way to say you cannot stand next to yourself.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 08 2019, @01:08PM
Does this mean that anyone searching for the term "pedo guy" will now find articles referencing Elon Musk, i.e. did he google-bomb himself or should we help a little? I like that kind of justice for Elon "pedo guy" Musk.