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posted by Fnord666 on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:18PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the slow-roasting-grills-of-justice dept.

A federal judge on Tuesday roasted Arkansas' law banning makers of meatless meat products from using words such as "burger," "sausage," "roast," and "meat" in their labeling.
[...] Judge Kristine Baker, of the US District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas, granted a preliminary injunction that prevents the state from enforcing the law while the legal case is ongoing. In her order, Judge Baker made clear that the law appears to violate the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment—as Tofurky argued. She determined that the state will likely lose the case.
[...] "The State argues that Tofurky's labels for its plant-based products are inherently misleading because they use the names and descriptors of traditional meat items but do not actually include the product they invoke, including terms like 'chorizo,' 'hot dogs,' 'sausage,' and 'ham roast,'" Judge Baker noted. Such misleading or false labels would not be protected commercial speech under the First Amendment, the state claimed.

But Judge Baker essentially called that argument bologna.
[...] She went on to cite a ruling in a similar case that determined that "Under Plaintiffs' logic, a reasonable consumer might also believe that veggie bacon contains pork, that flourless chocolate cake contains flour, or that e-books are made out of paper."

"That assumption is unwarranted," she went on. "The labels in the record evidence include ample terminology to indicate the vegan or vegetarian nature of the products."
[...] Meat and dairy industry groups have been increasingly working to try to limit the use of terms like "milk" and "meat" in other states and contexts as meatless and diary-free products continue to grow in popularity. Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, and South Dakota have similar anti-veggie-meat labeling laws. In Wisconsin, lawmakers have considered banning non-dairy products from using the word "milk," such as beverages labeled almond milk.

The latter issue led former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb to quip last year that "You know, an almond doesn't lactate." He said that the Food and Drug Administration is working on a guidance for the use of the term.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/judge-serves-up-sizzling-rebuke-of-arkansas-anti-veggie-meat-labeling-law/
Previous Stories:
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/12/04/1425220
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/07/07/1443201
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/02/26/2315236


Original Submission

Related Stories

U.S. Cattlemen's Association Wants an Official Definition of "Meat" 80 comments

The U.S. Cattlemen's Association has asked the U.S. Department of Agriculture to develop an official definition for terms like "meat" and "beef", as plant-based alternatives to meats continue to grow in popularity and lab-grown/cultured meat may be coming soon:

Companies like Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat are combining plant-based ingredients and science, rather than animals, to create fake-meat burgers and other products that taste like the real thing.

Now U.S. Cattlemen's Association is looking to draw a line in the sand. The association launched what could be the first salvo in a long battle against plant-based foods. Earlier this month, the association filed a 15-page petition with the U.S. Department of Agriculture calling for an official definition for the term "beef," and more broadly, "meat."

"While at this time alternative protein sources are not a direct threat to the beef industry, we do see improper labeling of these products as misleading," said Lia Biondo, the association's policy and outreach director. "Our goal is to head off the problem before it becomes a larger issue."

[...] While these foods are commonly dubbed "fake meat," there's a little more to the meat-substitute market than that. The Good Food Institute, which advocates a sustainable food supply, breaks it down into two categories: clean meat and plant-based meat. Clean meat refers to "meat" grown in a lab from a small amount of animal stem cells. This kind of meat isn't on the market yet, but it's in development. Plant-based meat is anything that mimics traditional meat but is made mainly using plant ingredients.

Here's an idea: define "meat" for the Cattlemen's Association, then tax it with an exemption for "lab-grown meat".

Related: Lab-Grown Pork Closer to Reality
Lab-Grown Chicken (and Duck) Could be on the Menu in 4 Years
Inside the Strange Science of the Fake Meat that 'Bleeds'
Impossible Foods Just Raised $75 Million for Its Plant-based Burgers
Cargill, Bill Gates, Richard Branson Backed Memphis Meats Expects Meat From Cells in Stores by 2021
Meat Tax Proposed for Sake of Human and Environmental Health.


Original Submission

Mississippi Bans Calling Plant and Cultured-Meat Patties 'Burgers' 51 comments

A new law in Mississippi(1) makes it illegal to refer to plant and cell-culture based patties as 'burgers'.

The law would also prohibit the use of "burger" or "dog" in relation to vat-grown, cell-based food, which is made of meat. The statute reserves these appelations for foodstuffs derived from "slaughtered livestock."

The law has naturally been challenged by parties such as the Good Food Institute and the American Civil Liberties Union among others. In a nutshell

The contention on the meat industry side is:

Mike McCormick, president of the Mississippi Farm Bureau Federation: "This bill will protect our cattle farmers from having to compete with products not harvested from an animal."

The contention on the other side is:

"There's nothing misleading about the name of a veggie burger, or vegan hot dog, or seitan bacon," Almy, a lawyer on the Missouri case, told me. "The packages clearly disclose that this is plant-based food that has the taste or texture of this familiar food."

A typical American would likely fall somewhere between these two views.

I fully understand (and at times enjoy) 'veggie burgers', however I had to look up 'seitan bacon' (FYI - a traditional Japanese wheat based food that is meat-like) and would not have known what it was at a glance (does super-seitan bacon go to 9000 calories?)

So where do patrons of Soylent Words-Related-to-Current-Happenings fall on this one?

(1) - Note TFA bounces between Missouri and Mississippi actions. There are similar labeling laws in both states. SB 627 in Missouri and SB 2922 in Mississippi.

Related: U.S. Cattlemen's Association Wants an Official Definition of "Meat"
Regulation Coming to Lab-Grown Meat


Original Submission

Meat Industry PR Campaign Bashes Plant-Based Meat Alternatives 58 comments

Plant-based burgers are "ultra-processed" like dog food, meat-backed ads say

A public-relations firm backed by meat producers has unleashed a savage marketing campaign that claims plant-based meat alternatives are unhealthy, "ultra-processed imitations" similar to dog food.

The campaign rolled out in recent weeks from the industry-funded firm Center for Consumer Freedom, according to The New York Times. So far, it has included full-page ads and opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers, including The New York Times, USA Today, and The Wall Street Journal. All the marketing material raises health concerns about trendy meat alternatives, such as the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger.

One ad posed the question "What's hiding in your plant-based meat?" Another directed readers to take the quiz "Veggie Burger or Dog Food?"

In an op-ed, the managing director of the Center for Consumer Freedom, Will Coggin, labeled meat alternatives as "ultra-processed" foods and noted that a recent study led by the researchers at the National Institutes of Health linked ultra-processed foods to weight gain.

The negative marketing campaign comes amid soaring popularity of meat alternatives, which threaten to slice into the meat market's sales and profits. In recent months, big players in the meat industry had tried a different—some might say hypocritical—tactic to compete with the new comers—that is, they released their own lines of meat alternatives. Now, the industry wants consumers to think such alternatives are unhealthy.

Older stories:


Original Submission

Impossible Foods CEO Ponders Fake Imaginary Meat 60 comments

Impossible CEO says it can make a meat 'unlike anything that you've had before'

Plant-based meat products are bigger than ever, with the fast-food industry, grocery stores, and upscale restaurants coming on board. A recent Nielsen report found that plant-based meat alternative purchases went up 279.8 percent last week after Americans were instructed to stay home during the novel coronavirus pandemic.

Impossible Foods, a company that develops plant-based meat products, says its mission is to someday replace the incumbent meat industry entirely, stating that, from a mission standpoint, a sale only has value if it comes at the expense of the sale of an animal-derived product.

But what if plant-based meat wasn't just a substitute for an already-existing marketplace, and instead, it started to make meat that has never existed?

On this week's Vergecast podcast, Impossible Foods CEO Patrick Brown talks to Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel about how this impossible meat could be a possibility in the future, even if it doesn't make sense for the company right now.

https://dilbert.com/strip/1992-04-08

Previously: Impossible Burger Lands in Some California Grocery Stores
Burger King Grilled by Vegan Over Impossible Burger "Meat Contamination"

Related: 'Soylent' Dawkins? Atheist Mulls 'Taboo Against Cannibalism' Ending as Lab-Grown Meat Improves
Meatless "Beyond Burgers" Come to Fast Food Restaurants
Swedish Behavioral Scientist Suggests Eating Humans to 'Save the Planet'
Discriminating Diets Of Meat-Eating Dinosaurs
Meat Industry PR Campaign Bashes Plant-Based Meat Alternatives
Unilever Pushing for Plant-Based Meat
Judge Serves Up Sizzling Rebuke of Arkansas' Anti-Veggie-Meat Labeling Law


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:33PM (48 children)

    by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:33PM (#932066)

    I can understand a law that restricts the term "meat" but not broad terms like sausage, hot dog, burger, and roast.
    Besides, I doubt people feel misled by the "meat alternative" manufacturers. Most people look for the meat-less products intentionally and the packaging itself often makes it quite obvious it is a meat free substitute for the equivalent ingredient.

    Nobody complains about hamburgers not being made of ham.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:52PM (21 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:52PM (#932071)

      ...hamburgers are called hamburgers because they come from Hamburg, not because they have ham. They've always been made with ground beef. Similar for other things like sausages, hot dogs, and roasts. Not similar that they come from Hamburg, but similar that they've always been made with meat. Trying to steal the names is exclusively an attempt to confuse consumers. The 'Impossible Burger' is probably the most overt example of this.

      • (Score: 2) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:05PM (16 children)

        by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:05PM (#932073)

        Yes, I know. That's my point. Nobody cares about Hamburg and the origins of the name. Do you think anyone is confused by it, or the "Impossible BurgerTM"?

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by EEMac on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:08PM (15 children)

          by EEMac (6423) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:08PM (#932096)

          YES.

          We went to Del Taco several months ago. My nephew ordered a " Epic Beyond Cali Burrito". He couldn't figure out why it tasted weird, then realized it was made with a vegetable-based meat substitute. He was confused by the marketing and not at all pleased.

          There's a lot of interpretations of "beyond" or "impossible". Does it mean something important? Is marketing just bringing in another term that sells well with some age group or other? If you're selling fake meat, it had better be clearly labeled.

          P.S. He offered a bite of the fake-meat burrito to the dog. The dog wouldn't eat it.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:20PM (12 children)

            by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:20PM (#932104)

            I fail to see anything in "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" that implies there is any kind of meat in it. Burritos are tortillas wrapped around a filling. If it's all vegetables, it's still a burrito.
            Did they claim it was supposed to be chicken, beef, pork, or other meat?

            • (Score: 4, Disagree) by EEMac on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:32PM (11 children)

              by EEMac (6423) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:32PM (#932107)

              I fail to see anything in "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" that implies there is NOT any kind of meat in it, and it intentionally looks like it's made with hamburger.

              Let's keep the goal posts in place. I replied to:

              Do you think anyone is confused by it, or the "Impossible BurgerTM"?

              Yes. My nephew was confused by similar marketing.

              • (Score: 5, Informative) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:50PM (8 children)

                by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:50PM (#932110)

                Alright, so I'll keep the goalpost at "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" and quote you their marketing:

                Epic Beyond Cali Burrito

                (vegetarian): Seasoned Beyond Meat® plant-based crumbles, our famous Crinkle Cut Fries, sour cream, guacamole, and pico de gallo salsa.

                Ingredients

                Tortilla (Epic Burritos), Seasoned Beyond Meat, Crinkle Cut French Fries, Guacamole, Salsa, Salsa Seasoning, Sour Cream

                It's very clearly marked as vegetarian and plant-based. There is absolutely no mention of beef, chicken, pork, or other animal product. That being said, your nephew and those around him are now aware that the words "epic beyond cali" have no meaning with regards to the flesh of any particular animal.

                • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:54PM (6 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:54PM (#932138)

                  Ignorant boomer type wants to be angry, let them be angry at their failure to interpret reality.

                  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:08PM (5 children)

                    by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:08PM (#932146)

                    Hey now, let's keep this civil.
                    Your attempt to label them as a supposed "boomer type" tells me more about you than them and it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

                    • (Score: 1) by EEMac on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:25AM (1 child)

                      by EEMac (6423) on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:25AM (#932305)

                      Hey now, let's keep this civil.
                      Your attempt to label them as a supposed "boomer type" tells me more about you than them and it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

                      Since I can't find a way to send a private message, I'll say it here: that was very cool of you to do. Thank you.

                      • (Score: 2) by Booga1 on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:25PM

                        by Booga1 (6333) on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:25PM (#932402)

                        Thanks. I thought your comments were informative. After all, I trust you're telling the truth with regards to your experiences, and your nephew's surprise burrito. Nobody likes to be served food that isn't what they wanted.
                        Maybe the signs in the store were lacking. Maybe it was just unexpected due to ordering based on what picture looked tasty at the moment the order was placed. That is a certainly a common problem, especially with new products. I often order new or novel dishes since I want to find out if I like it or not. Most of the time it's a "one and done" deal if it doesn't suit me.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:08PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:08PM (#932448)

                      Sure I get your point, I'm just tired of all the outrage over vegetarian options and the insults that go with it. We younger generations get shit on for disliking racism and inequality, but someone eating a veggie option by accident "CALL 911!"

                      Peak boomer mentality, but I guess bigotry is only allowed in one direction. Maybe analyze your personal feelings about being labeled as part of a generation, then imagine how much worse it is for LGBTQ/darker skin/different religion people who are regularly shat upon by users here.

                      But ok, BOOMER is a line too far. Pardon me, I think my eyes rolled out of my head.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2019, @02:24AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2019, @02:24AM (#932643)

                        Not a boomer here, but I will start to care about people's tender little fee-fees about this topic the very nanosecond that vegans start being relaxed about which grill their buzzword-friendly meat substitute was cooked on.

                        Not holding my breath, here.

                        (Oh, and as for the whole racism and inequality thing, you do realise that boomers were the main generation behind things like disinvestment from South Africa, leftward swings in politics that dominated the last half of the 20th century and all the fun of disarmament and barefooted hippie protests ... right? Millenials weren't even born then, and Gen X was in grade school, if that.)

                      • (Score: 2) by Booga1 on Monday December 16 2019, @04:23AM

                        by Booga1 (6333) on Monday December 16 2019, @04:23AM (#932680)

                        You're absolutely right about the directional nature of racism and bigotry. However, my reply was an attempt to short circuit the response pattern of escalation so the conversation could continue.
                        When you see a childish insult as a response, no matter who it's from or who it's directed at, it usually means you've lost the ability to have a discussion. It's an attempt to silence the other side by marginalizing them into a box with a neat little label. The insult itself isn't really material as it's more of a signpost of where things are headed in a debate.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:26AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:26AM (#932260)

                  You are like a Trump supporter who will intentionally not understand what is going on

              • (Score: 2) by helel on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (1 child)

                by helel (2949) on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (#932120)

                What, exactly, do the words "Made with 100% plant-based protein" mean to you? That seems to be the main descriptor of the "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito," along with others such as "vegetarian" and "plant-based crumbles."

                --
                Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
                • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:05PM

                  by legont (4179) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:05PM (#932159)

                  What, exactly, do the words "Made with 100% plant-based protein" mean to you?

                  This means for me that there was "100% plant-based protein" added to the dish. It may be as little as 1% of the total mass or as much as 70%.
                  When I cook myself, I always add 100% plant based protein to my beef mainly as nut oils.

                  --
                  "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
          • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:20AM

            by krishnoid (1156) on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:20AM (#932326)

            The dog was obviously not going to turn to canni-- I'm sorry, I've already said too much.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:00PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:00PM (#932386)

            Keep in mind that the Del Taco burrito does not have a consumer product label. Your nephew was probably reading a menu or saw a marketing poster. Product labels have much more detailed ingredient information than fast food menus and posters.

            On the other hand, Del Taco should probably state "meatless" on the menu/poster if they want vegetarians to purchase that item.

      • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:36PM

        by fyngyrz (6567) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:36PM (#932108) Journal

        ...hamburgers are called hamburgers because they come from Hamburg, not because they have ham.

        Well, clearly, they should change the name of that city, or I might end up buying plane tickets when I only meant to get a hamburger. I'm a just poor witless consumer over here, trying to rub two brain cells together. I need protection to be dispensed by our Great Legislative Bodies! Save me, O Lordly arbiters of confusion!

        --
        When I dunk my cookies, I think of you.
        I hold them under until the bubbles stop.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:46PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:46PM (#932109)

        I guess you never looked into what goes into sausage and hot dogs.

      • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:09PM (1 child)

        by RamiK (1813) on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:09PM (#932161)

        but similar that they've always been made with meat

        This comment does not contain actual fruit.

        --
        compiling...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:00AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:00AM (#932238)

          My belief is "offal" is the most accurate word to describe the ingredients of hot dogs and sausage.

          With sufficient spices, they can be made quite tasty.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:33PM (18 children)

      by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:33PM (#932079) Journal
      I agree with limiting the use of milk to dairy products because almond milk is a fraud - one almond per carton and people will think this is a healthy substitute for real milk for babies.

      Same as if you want to label something as fruit juice it has to contain 20% real juice, otherwise it's fruit drink, and doesn't have to contain any fruit juice. Stupid parents buying juice boxes with as much real juice as Koop-aid.

      As for the rest, labels saying it's vegetarian or vegan are sufficient.

      --
      SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (#932119)

        uhh i think milk can mean the "drinkable squeezings"?

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milk [merriam-webster.com]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:03AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:03AM (#932239)

          Milk of Magnesia... Beyond Milk?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:51PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:51PM (#932136)

        Human Babies shouldn’t be drinking cows milk (assuming that is what you mean by “milk” here).

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:12PM

          by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:12PM (#932163) Journal

          Stop pushing Nestle's bullshit about baby formula being better. It's not. In cases where the mother's milk is high levels of DDT and lead (yes, we are still dealing with those), cow's / goat's milk is better than breast milk.

          --
          SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:07AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:07AM (#932255)

          That's a bold claim relating to nutirtional needs of an infant, care to provide some credentials, or are you practicing without a license?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @06:04AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @06:04AM (#932316)

            And yet I don't see you taking issue with the other person saying that babies shouldn't be drinking almond milk.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:23AM (4 children)

        by dry (223) on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:23AM (#932259) Journal

        Throw out 800 years of accepted usage due to someone fraudulently calling water with an almond added almond milk? Perhaps better to have a rule similar to the one you propose for juice.
        According to wiki, actually their citation at https://web.archive.org/web/20181230085351/https://www.foodinsight.org/whats-in-a-name-types-of-milk-dairy-nondairy-alternatives-consumer-research [archive.org] 75%+ understand that plant based milks don't contain dairy and 90% understand that whole milk refers to cows milk. The only really confusing one seems to be lactose free milk.
        Seems education might be better then trampling on freedom to use common words in their common way.

        • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:55AM (3 children)

          by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:55AM (#932275) Journal

          Almond milk is a fraud. One almond in a carton is not "almond milk". Same as you can't call ice milk ice cream. Not enough milk fat content.

          BTW - milk doesn't only come from cows. Try goat milk - it's quite tasty. And it still qualifies as milk because it's produced from mammals, not plants.

          And I didn't "propose" a rule for juice - it's the actual law. Must be real fruit juice or it can't be called fruit juice - hence the labelling "fruit drink". AKA flavoured sugar water.

          --
          SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
          • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:54AM (2 children)

            by dry (223) on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:54AM (#932293) Journal

            Yes, it does sound like almond milk is a fraud, though the American courts refused an injunction based on false advertising. Sadly it seems pretty popular despite the low amount of protein, I guess people think it is a nut.
            Seems almond milk dates from the 12th century, and in English, the word milk has also referred to plant based milks since about the same time, with almond milk being popular during religious fasts.
            I don't really like any animal milk, cows milk doesn't agree, goats is too gamey, at least what I have had. Have had cheeses from various animals, camel, water buffalo, sheep, goat and cow at least, they're all good if aged. Never tried pigeon milk.
            As for the fruit juice law, seems we need similar for almond milk along with a warning that it is not suitable for infants.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @08:51AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @08:51AM (#932331)

              Never tried pigeon milk.

              There is a reason for that. Involves mammilaries. Look them up, but do not look at them, directly, too much.

      • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 16 2019, @06:41PM (6 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Monday December 16 2019, @06:41PM (#932950) Journal

        Milk isn't an acceptable substitute for babies, either. Mothers who can't produce enough milk for their children should definitely look into Formula solutions for their baby.

        Why should I wait until my baby is at least 12 months old to introduce cow's milk?

        Babies can't digest cow's milk as completely or easily as breast milk or formula. Cow's milk contains high concentrations of protein and minerals, which can tax your baby's immature kidneys.

        Cow's milk doesn't have the right amounts of iron, vitamin C, and other nutrients for infants. It may even cause iron-deficiency anemia in some babies, since cow's milk protein can irritate the lining of the digestive system, leading to blood in the stools. Finally, cow's milk doesn't provide the healthiest types of fat for growing babies.

        https://www.babycenter.com/0_cows-milk-when-and-how-to-introduce-it_1334703.bc [babycenter.com]

        --
        "I said in my haste, All men are liars." Psalm 116:11
        • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday December 18 2019, @02:41AM (5 children)

          by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Wednesday December 18 2019, @02:41AM (#933551) Journal

          That's bullshit. Almost all babies can digest 50% cows milk no problem. Same as almost all babies can digest 100% mother's milk no problem.

          Your citation is from a web site owned by Johnson and Johnson. They sell baby formula via Mead Johnson. Don't depend on them telling the truth when their paycheque demands they lie.

          --
          SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday December 18 2019, @03:44PM (4 children)

            by Freeman (732) on Wednesday December 18 2019, @03:44PM (#933749) Journal

            Or you could listen to the NHS:

            First infant formula (first milk) should always be the first formula you give to your baby.

            The cows' milk in formula contains 2 types of proteins – whey and casein. First infant formula is based on whey protein which is thought to be easier to digest than other types of formula.

            Unless a midwife, health visitor or GP suggests otherwise, first infant formula is the only formula your baby needs. Your baby can stay on it when you start to introduce solid foods at around 6 months and drink it throughout their 1st year.
            [...]
            Types of milk to avoid

            Not all milk is suitable for feeding babies. You should never give the following types of milk to a baby under 1 year:

                    condensed milk
                    evaporated milk
                    dried milk
                    goats' or sheep's milk (but it's fine to use them when cooking for your baby, as long as they are pasteurised)
                    other types of drinks known as "milks", such as soya, rice, oat or almond drinks
                    cows' milk as a drink (but it's fine to use it in cooking)

            https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/types-of-infant-formula/ [www.nhs.uk]

            Then there's the Mayo Clinic as well:

            Commercial infant formulas are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Three major types are available:

                    Cow milk protein-based formulas. Most infant formula is made with cow's milk that's been altered to resemble breast milk. This gives the formula the right balance of nutrients — and makes the formula easier to digest. Most babies do well on cow's milk formula. Some babies, however — such as those allergic to the proteins in cow's milk — need other types of infant formula.

            https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/infant-formula/art-20045782 [mayoclinic.org]

            --
            "I said in my haste, All men are liars." Psalm 116:11
            • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday December 19 2019, @12:23AM (3 children)

              by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Thursday December 19 2019, @12:23AM (#934007) Journal
              Generations have drunk cows milk with no problems. Also, couldn't help notice that your first quote is full of shit because it isn't fact-based:

              First infant formula is based on whey protein which is thought to be easier to digest than other types of formula.

              Too much medical advice is based off manufacturers advertising handouts to doctors. One good example is antidepressants - after more than 60 years, still no independent proof that they actually work, and in most cases they're no better than a placebo - but with more side effects.

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              • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 19 2019, @04:19PM (2 children)

                by Freeman (732) on Thursday December 19 2019, @04:19PM (#934224) Journal

                Use of a wet nurse, “a woman who breastfeeds another's child” (Davis, 1993, p. 2111), was a common practice before the introduction of the feeding bottle and formula. Wet nursing began as early as 2000 BC and extended until the 20th century. Throughout this time period, wet nursing evolved from an alternative of need (2000 BC) to an alternative of choice (950 BC to 1800 AD). It became a well organized profession with contracts and laws designed to regulate its practice. Despite objections during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, wet nursing continued until the feeding bottle was introduced in the 19th century. With a feasible alternative feeding method available, wet nursing as a profession quickly declined to extinction.
                [...]
                The use of animal's milk for infant feeding is noted as far back as 2000 BC. Since then, alternative milk sources have evolved to include the synthetic formulas of today. The use of artificial feeding substances grew rapidly and was significantly influenced by advertising campaigns. This had a profound negative effect on breastfeeding trends, despite research that revealed many discrepancies between breastfed and artificially fed infants (Greer & Apple, 1991; Wolf, 2003). Although artificial or formula-feeding of infants is presently much safer than it has been in decades, breastmilk is still considered the best source of infant nutrition (Leung & Sauve, 2005).
                [...]
                In the 18th century, the first chemical analyses of human milk and animal's milk began to appear. Jean Charles Des-Essartz published his Treatise of Physical Upbringing of Children in 1760, which discussed and compared the composition of human milk to that of the cow, sheep, ass, mare, and goat. Based on chemical characteristics, Des-Essartz justified human milk as the best source of infant nutrition. With mother's milk as the ideal, many scientists tried to formulate nonhuman milk to resemble human milk (Radbill, 1981). In 1865, chemist Justus von Liebig developed, patented, and marketed an infant food, first in a liquid form and then in a powdered form for better preservation. Liebig's formula—consisting of cow's milk, wheat and malt flour, and potassium bicarbonate—was considered the perfect infant food (Radbill, 1981).
                [...]
                Research suggests that breastfeeding prevents adverse health conditions, whereas formula-feeding is linked with their development. This evidence confirms breastfeeding is still the best source of infant nutrition and the safest method of infant feeding.

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2684040/ [nih.gov]

                If your child is under 1 year old, you should not feed your baby cow's milk, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

                Cow's milk does not provide enough:

                        Vitamin E
                        Iron
                        Essential fatty acids

                Your baby's system cannot handle the high levels of these nutrients in cow's milk:

                        Protein
                        Sodium
                        Potassium

                It is also hard for your baby to digest the protein and fat in cow's milk.

                To provide the best diet and nutrition for your infant, the AAP recommends:

                        If possible, you should feed your baby breast milk for at least the first 6 months of life.
                        You should give your baby only breast milk or iron-fortified formula during the first 12 months of life, not cow's milk.
                        Starting at age 6 months, you may add solid foods to your baby's diet.

                If breastfeeding is not possible, infant formulas provide a healthy diet for your infant.

                Whether you use breast milk or formula, your baby may have colic and be fussy. These are common problems in all babies. Cow's milk formulas usually do not cause these symptoms, so it may not help if you switch to a different formula. If your baby has ongoing colic, talk with your health care provider.

                https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002448.htm [medlineplus.gov]

                Breastmilk is the #1 best source of food for an infant. #2 best source is forumla. #3 better than starving to death source is animal milk.

                --
                "I said in my haste, All men are liars." Psalm 116:11
                • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday December 19 2019, @05:44PM (1 child)

                  by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Thursday December 19 2019, @05:44PM (#934267) Journal
                  Read your own post. 4000 years of using other mammals milk prices there's no problem. Also, humans can certainly eat mush well before 6 months. My oldest was gumming Cheerios to death before 2 months. Really, go raise a couple of infants and stop believing shit that is obviously false in the face of real life facts.
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                  • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 19 2019, @09:09PM

                    by Freeman (732) on Thursday December 19 2019, @09:09PM (#934365) Journal

                    #1 You assume I've not raised my own. #2 Just because people have done something for a very long time, doesn't mean it's best. #3 I like modern science. Air conditioning, Antibiotics, Vaccines, Infant Formula, etc.

                    --
                    "I said in my haste, All men are liars." Psalm 116:11
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:56PM (2 children)

      by Arik (4543) on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:56PM (#932089) Journal
      "I can understand a law that restricts the term "meat""

      I can't agree with that, ridiculous. You're going to outlaw the primary meaning of the word meat?

      Meat, earlier mēte; food, solid food as opposed to drink; or the nutritious part of a plant or animal as opposed to an inedible husk skin or pod containing it. Compare Gothic mats, OHG maz, modern Swedish mat. All carrying that same primary meaning. The meat of a nut, the meat of a gourd, the meat of an animal - all are meat.

      The usage of meat specifically for animal meat rather than other kinds is a secondary, derived sense that only dates to the 14th century, when the phrase "flesh-meat" (meaning meat of an animal) became so common that it started being shortened to simply "meat" with the meaning being obvious from context.

      I'm no fan of fake hamburgers but I'm also no fan of speech codes, even in theory - let alone in practice, where they wind up getting set by people that don't actually understand the language very well to begin with.
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      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:15PM

        by Booga1 (6333) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:15PM (#932101)

        Alright. You've won a convert. While "meat" is also a vegetable term I've heard used I was never confused by the usage. Heck, artichoke "hearts" is also common. There's no beating heart organ in artichokes, yet it's also acceptable.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:05PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:05PM (#932144)

        Or worse those who do understand but have a vested interest in corrupting our common language for political or economic gain.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:53PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:53PM (#932137)

      You are correct that the core issue is truth in advertising. If something is marketed as a VeggieBurger or a Soysage then a potential buyer can make an informed purchase. But what about an Impossible Burger? If you don't already know what that is then the name tells you nothing. Coconut milk and almond milk are also unambiguous but if it just says "milk" most people will assume cow milk. Goat milk is specified for the same reason.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday December 14 2019, @11:22PM

      by Joe Desertrat (2454) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 14 2019, @11:22PM (#932185)

      Besides, I doubt people feel misled by the "meat alternative" manufacturers. Most people look for the meat-less products intentionally and the packaging itself often makes it quite obvious it is a meat free substitute for the equivalent ingredient.

      Not to mention every supermarket I have seen keeps these sort of items isolated, usually in their own section in produce, far away from the meat section.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by datapharmer on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:01PM (1 child)

      by datapharmer (2702) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:01PM (#932362)

      The funny thing is that legal “standard of identity” already exists and has been around for decades. It got started after the olden days of food manufacturing when you had no idea what you were getting - think “The Jungle”. You can read them here: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=130 [fda.gov]

      No need for State laws, just enforcement which the current executive branch has no interest in doing.

      While standards of identity can change, they are regulated and sausage does specify it contains meat, and meat is fat and protein of animals. If something else is sold as sausage it is in violation of federal regulations unless those regulations are changed.

      • (Score: 2) by Booga1 on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:10PM

        by Booga1 (6333) on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:10PM (#932364)

        Interesting. Stuff like this bugs the heck outta me. So many times I see people say something like "there ought to be a law!" Yet, there is already a law in place, but nobody's enforcing it. So, there's a push to make a new law to cover some smaller detail or particular situation. Repeat ad infinitum.

        P.S. I think the worst of the bunch is when you basically tack on something like, "on a computer" to the offense, as if the original law didn't cover it.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:50PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:50PM (#932069)

    I propose a sentence of hard labour for describing something as "beer" when there is no alcohol in it.

    As for "Fat free Greek Yoghourt": either its fat-free, or its Greek, but not both.

    It sure as hell ain't "free" and there could money for lawyers arguing as to whether it is even Yoghourt - it certainly does not taste like it.

    These products fall into the category of "Food with the food removed".

    --

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    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:14PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:14PM (#932075)

      > ... describing something as "beer" when there is no alcohol in it

      On the grape side of things, there is some very tasty sparkling grape juice, which sort-of passes for a fizzy wine like Champagne or Prosecco.
      Perhaps you would prefer "sparkling malt beverage" or "designated driver drink"??

      Practically speaking, were you ever fooled by marketing into drinking non alcoholic "beer"? Did you get a buzz anyway(grin)??

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by barbara hudson on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:35PM (6 children)

        by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:35PM (#932082) Journal
        The rest of the world feels the same about most American beer. It's like sex in a canoe / fucking close to water.
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        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:58PM (3 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:58PM (#932091) Journal
          Not all American beer is bad, we're actually making some of the best beer in the world here. It's just not the biggest brands, they're all mass-produced water-lager, but there are now dozens of decent microbreweries available, at least in their own regions.

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          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:12PM (2 children)

            by legont (4179) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:12PM (#932162)

            Let me emphasize it - tens of thousands of microbreweries. The US is currently the capital of beer. Nowhere in the world beer is as good and as diverse.

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:03AM (1 child)

              by dry (223) on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:03AM (#932280) Journal

              Except Canada and I assume parts of Europe. America has caught up though, if there is one thing America is good at, it is taking a good idea and running with it.

              • (Score: 2) by legont on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:12PM

                by legont (4179) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:12PM (#932394)

                I go to Europe often. Yes, it traditionally has good beer, but the market over there did not change that much over the last few decades, while the US one (and yes, Canada's) just exploded.

                --
                "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:13PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:13PM (#932099)

          Once again, we can blame it on regulation(?)

          A friend used to work for a large regional brewery (one of the major brands), in the 1980s. He claimed that the difference between US and Canadian beer (which was generally better in that decade) was due to taxation policy. The US taxed beer that was bottled/canned and sold, Canada taxed beer that was brewed (whether sold or flushed as bad).

          Given the tolerances in the beer making process at that time, the US brewed marginal beer (in mass quantity) and only sold the stuff that passed whenever quality testing they did. And only paid tax on the beer actually sold, not on all the really bad stuff that was thrown out.

          Meanwhile Canadian breweries had to err on the conservative side of the tolerance band because they were getting taxed on everything they brewed, so they better be able to sell it all.

          Not sure if this still applies now, maybe someone has more recent information?

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:16PM

          by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:16PM (#932117) Journal

          Craft beer sales continue growth, now amount to 24% of total $114-billion U.S. beer market [usatoday.com]

          Retail sales of craft beer rose 7% in 2018, to $27.58 billion, according to the Brewers Association, a trade group representing thousands of small, independent brewers.

          That sales surge helped craft brewers to 24.2% share of the $114.2 billion U.S. beer market. That's up from 23.4% last year in a basically flat beer market. Last year, the total U.S. beer market hit $111 billion, the association estimates.

          The number of breweries in the U.S. also continues to grow and craft brewers are making more beer, producing 25.9 million barrels, up 4% over 2017.

          Craft brewers also grew their share of beer volume to 13.2%, as overall beer product dropped 1%, the association says.

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      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:09AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:09AM (#932241)

        Alcohol free beer...aka...piss.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @08:51AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @08:51AM (#932330)

      As for "Fat free Greek Yoghourt": either its fat-free, or its Greek, but not both.

      You can buy low fat greek yoghurt with protein instead of fat, so I'd assume the fat free version (which I haven't encountered) would simply be rich in protein instead.

    • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Sunday December 15 2019, @09:53PM

      by meustrus (4961) on Sunday December 15 2019, @09:53PM (#932487)

      I propose a sentence of hard labour for describing something as "beer" when there is no alcohol in it.

      You mean like root beer?

      --
      My hobby: trolling the trolls with untested new ideas and arguments, using their own words when possible.
  • (Score: 2) by srobert on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:51PM (8 children)

    by srobert (4803) on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:51PM (#932111)

    While I agree that there should be some truth in labeling and advertising, I don't think terms like "almond milk" or "veggie burger" are intended to deceive the consumer. In the case of "almond milk" the label was intended to convey what the product was a substitute for. I don't think any reasonably intelligent person thinks it's a dairy product. We can't protect the consumers if they are idiots.
    "Warning: Do not use this lawnmower to cut children's hair."

    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:26PM (4 children)

      by HiThere (866) on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:26PM (#932124) Journal

      While I agree, when I read the nutrients panel I was dismayed that something that low in protein could be called milk. If they're going to be extremely low in protein, then they should be required to display the amount in large letters if they're going to call it milk.

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      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:01PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:01PM (#932140)

        If people are concerned about protein content then they can read the label. That is why it exists.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:31PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:31PM (#932151)

        Milk of Magnesia

      • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:09AM (1 child)

        by dry (223) on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:09AM (#932282) Journal

        Latex milk such as a Dandelion exudes is low on protein I believe.
        Seems the problem with Almond milk is that it is watered down, nut milk should have a minimum of water added.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:07PM

          by HiThere (866) on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:07PM (#932415) Journal

          Latex milk is also not normally considered a food.

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    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:31AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:31AM (#932261)

      They are exacly named that to deceive the consumer. They are named that so it can be "proved" that you don't need real meat and milk because they might be able to deceive you into eating the fake products.

      Why on earth would they not name the products clearly?

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:12AM

        by dry (223) on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:12AM (#932283) Journal

        Perhaps you could get a time machine, go back to the 1300's and make sure milk only means mammal secretions and then go back further and make sure that meat means an animal product. These words had been around a long time before the marketers limited their meaning.

    • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Sunday December 15 2019, @10:08PM

      by meustrus (4961) on Sunday December 15 2019, @10:08PM (#932495)

      Warning labels like "Do not use this lawnmower to cut children's hair" aren't there to protect children, they're there to protect corporations from liability. By putting it there, they can short-circuit any lawsuits before they turn into million dollar settlements to avoid billion dollar jury trials. Somebody that stupid probably has a bad enough case of Dunning-Kruger to think that warning doesn't apply to them anyway, assuming they even noticed the big red warning label to begin with.

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  • (Score: 2) by Revek on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:56PM (3 children)

    by Revek (5022) on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:56PM (#932171)

    To be on the forefront of derp.

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    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:03PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:03PM (#932376)

      Yeah fuck people just wanting to know what they are buying. Am I right? I mean why should they know what they are getting? What a state of derp asking companies not to play games with your food!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:14PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:14PM (#932416)

        No one buys veggie burgers thinking they're real meat. That just doesn't happen.

      • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Sunday December 15 2019, @10:02PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Sunday December 15 2019, @10:02PM (#932492)

        The packaging of a Beyond Burger clearly lists its plant-based ingredients. Same for Tofurkey Ham Roast and any other food sold within the USA. Accurate ingredient labeling is a legal requirement.

        So, yeah, fuck people who want to know what they are buying but are too stupid and/or lazy to turn the product around and read the literal itemized list of what they are buying.

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  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday December 14 2019, @11:33PM

    by Joe Desertrat (2454) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 14 2019, @11:33PM (#932189)

    I believe Monty Python covered the subject decades ago with the Crunchy Frog [50webs.com] sketch.

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