Boeing: internal emails reveal chaos and incompetence at 737 Max factory
[On] Thursday hundreds of pages of internal messages were delivered to congressional investigators in which Boeing executives mocked their regulator, joked about safety and said the Max had been "designed by clowns".
Shocking as the emails are, they will come as no surprise to those following the Boeing story. Last month Edward Pierson, a former senior manager at Boeing's 737 factory in Renton, Washington, told Congress he had witnessed "chaos" at the factory where the Max was built and had warned management that "Boeing was prioritizing production speed over quality and safety". His warnings were ignored.
Boeing Mocked Lion Air Calls for More 737 Max Training Before Crash
Indonesia's Lion Air considered putting its pilots through simulator training before flying the Boeing Co. 737 Max but abandoned the idea after the planemaker convinced them in 2017 it was unnecessary, according to people familiar with the matter and internal company communications.
The next year, 189 people died when a Lion Air 737 Max plunged into the Java Sea, a disaster blamed in part on inadequate training and the crew's unfamiliarity with a new flight-control feature on the Max that malfunctioned.
[...] "Now friggin Lion Air might need a sim to fly the MAX, and maybe because of their own stupidity. I'm scrambling trying to figure out how to unscrew this now! idiots," one Boeing employee wrote in June 2017 text messages obtained by the company and released by the House committee.
In response, a Boeing colleague replied: "WHAT THE F%$&!!!! But their sister airline is already flying it!" That was an apparent reference to Malindo Air, the Malaysian-based carrier that was the first to fly the Max commercially.
Boeing's biggest supplier lays off 2,800 workers because of 737 Max production suspension
Boeing's largest supplier is laying off a significant number of its employees because of the 737 Max production suspension.
Spirit AeroSystems (SPR), which makes fuselages for the Max as well as other items for Boeing, announced Friday that it is furloughing approximately 2,800 workers. Shares of the Wichita, Kansas-based company fell more than 1% in trading.
"The difficult decision announced today is a necessary step given the uncertainty related to both the timing for resuming 737 Max production and the overall production levels that can be expected following the production suspension," Spirit AeroSystems CEO Tom Gentile said in a press release.
Woodward to Combine With Hexcel in All-Stock Transaction
Woodward Inc. will combine its operations with Hexcel Corp. in an all-stock transaction that gives it a controlling stake in the merged entity, creating one of the world's biggest aerospace and defense suppliers.
The transaction, which the suppliers to Boeing Co. are billing as a merger of equals, will create a company named Woodward Hexcel with annual revenue of more than $5 billion. While suppliers are hurting because of Boeing's travails following the crash of two 737 Maxes, executives said Sunday they're driven by the pursuit for more-efficient engines over the next 20 years, not the 737 Max issues.
Previously: a lot
Related Stories
Boeing's promised 737 Max production halt begins:
The airline manufacturer had announced last month it would stop making the troubled craft at least until it was no longer grounded, but hadn't set a date. However the line has officially stopped producing planes while Boeing officials wait for regulators to give it the OK to fly again.
[...] The latest update estimated the grounding would last through at least mid-2020, Boeing said in a statement Tuesday.
Boeing will reassign 3,000 workers after 737 MAX production halt
Boeing Co said it will reassign 3,000 workers to other jobs as it halts production of the grounded best-selling 737 MAX jet in mid-January.
The announcement came after American Airlines Group Inc and Mexico's Aeromexico disclosed they were the latest carriers to reach settlements with Boeing over losses resulting from the grounding of the 737 MAX aircraft.
Neither airline disclosed the compensation. A number of airlines have struck confidential settlements with Boeing in recent weeks. Boeing said it does not comment on discussions with airlines.
Boeing's biggest supplier lays off 2,800 workers because of 737 Max production suspension:
Spirit AeroSystems (SPR), which makes fuselages for the Max as well as other items for Boeing, announced Friday that it is furloughing approximately 2,800 workers. Shares of the Wichita, Kansas-based company fell more than 1% in trading.
"The difficult decision announced today is a necessary step given the uncertainty related to both the timing for resuming 737 Max production and the overall production levels that can be expected following the production suspension," Spirit AeroSystems CEO Tom Gentile said in a press release.
Boeing wants to resume 737 Max production months before regulators sign off on the planes:
American Airlines quietly made a decision that'll disturb everyone:
European regulators have already declared the Max is safe to fly. What 's curious is that Boeing hasn't yet made the software changes that European regulators insisted was necessary.
In the US, the Max has passed its certification test flights. American, though, understands that passengers will be nervous. The airline is trying to entice passengers to take a tour of the plane at selected airports.
[...] So this week I was a little disturbed to read: "Southwest, American pilots say new Boeing 737 Max manual may lead to errors in emergencies."
The pilots are concerned that the Federal Aviation Authority's manual for handling the new software in the event of an emergency is inadequate.
[...] An intriguing element is whether American and other airlines will tell customers they're flying in a Max at all.
Previously:
Boeing Customers Cancel Staggering 150 Max Plane Orders in March
Boeing Making New 737 MAX Software Updates to Address Computer Issues
737 Max Fix Slips To Summer—And That's Just One Of Boeing's Problems
737 Max "Designed by Clowns"; Boeing Suppliers Affected by Production Suspension
Boeing's 737 Max Troubles Deepen, Taking Airlines, Suppliers With It
(Score: 5, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Wednesday January 15 2020, @10:56AM (17 children)
...maybe someone can find it (it was in the bbc coverage), but something along the lines of
"the problem is that no one in the senior management understands the technical stuff, so we end up in a mess"
(Score: 4, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday January 15 2020, @12:56PM (12 children)
Boeing faces fine for 737 Max plane 'designed by clowns' [bbc.com]
Congress: Well congratulations, you got yourself caught. Now what's the next step of your master plan?
Boeing: Crashing this plane — with no survivors!
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Wednesday January 15 2020, @01:43PM (4 children)
If I recall correctly, their next step was to fire everyone who "used unprofessional language" which is a great way to rid yourself of every actual engineer on staff and end up with an amazingly competent team of powerpoint experts.
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Wednesday January 15 2020, @01:51PM (3 children)
The next step is stop designing planes saving a lot of lives in the process.
(Score: 3, Funny) by ikanreed on Wednesday January 15 2020, @01:56PM (2 children)
No, it's definitely to have Boeing-797-design-TOPSECRET-final(FINAL)-FINAL.ppt shipped to the factory floor for fabrication
(Score: 2) by Snospar on Wednesday January 15 2020, @02:11PM (1 child)
Wait, I thought I saw "Copy of Copy of Boeing-797-design-TOPSECRET-final(FINAL)-FINAL.ppt" just last week!
Huge thanks to all the Soylent volunteers without whom this community (and this post) would not be possible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:29AM
Nah, that was 217 revisions ago. Hardly anything's the same. The latest model contains 4528 miles of green tape.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:15PM
Boeing could adopt a page from AT&T and try to ensure there are survivors, and then harvest their vital organs. Require airlines to have a clause in the ticket agreement similar to AT&T's clause that allows harvesting the vital organs of the ticket holder and their family members, unless their cable tv provider has already gotten them first.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:34PM (1 child)
Holy hell - this is going to be bad.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @06:39PM
Boeing is probably the single most well connected company in congress. Nothing's going to happen to them except some token executive shuffling.
(Score: 5, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday January 15 2020, @06:03PM (3 children)
Just for the record: I do NOT work for Boeing!
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday January 15 2020, @07:06PM
I was wondering when someone would add the "supervised by monkeys". If they said "supervised by apes" it would not be an insult, since humans are apes.
Well done, wrapping it in a joke that got a chuckle from me.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2) by driverless on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:09AM (1 child)
And that's an important point, this stuff sounds bad, but has anyone not experienced something similar, whatever their employer may be? Every company will cut corners and whatnot at some point or other, it's just that it's usually not discovered. It's the same thing with investigations into acrimonious police cases which always turns up assorted mistakes, not necessarily because this one was especially badly handled but because everything that's done inevitably ends up with mistakes somewhere along the line once you look at it hard enough.
Not defending Boeing, just pointing out that most people will have experienced a "patch the leaky boat", "piss poor design", "supervised by monkeys", and similar moment one or more times in their career, it's just that it usually works out OK, or at least OK enough to go unnoticed.
(Score: 3, Touché) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Thursday January 16 2020, @06:31AM
True, but if Epson does it their printer gets some bad reviews; if Boeing does it a lot of people die.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @10:17PM
A problem I have with these kind of things is that it is really easy to take out of context. I bet you can find some version of your quote in employee emails from almost any company that designs and builds things. The worker bees bitch about management and how incompetent they are. It makes great headlines, but it doesn't tell you whether there were real issues or not. There's always that one person who shits on everything, or predicts doom and gloom if things aren't done his way. Is that the case here, or was there systematic problems and concerns that were ignored. This is why it takes a while to do these investigations.
The second one says they mocked calls for more trainers. The quote says "and maybe because of their own stupidity". What does that mean? In some ways it sounds like Lion Air might have had what they needed, then didn't due to some issue on their side. For instance, let's say the trainers were delivered as software and Lion Air accidentally threw them away or deleted them off their system, then I can see how they might get mocked in an internal email for messing up. In this case I would want to know were they denied trainers when asked, and why did they fly them if they felt they needed trainers but didn't have them. Again, that quote is very nice and juicy and makes great press, but it tells you nothing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @10:41AM (2 children)
The real problem is no one is senior management risks ending up in prison even if they're responsible for hundreds or thousands of people dying.
If such a risk is significant, you'd see attitudes change. The engineers who understand tech AND also have the same risk or greater will start speaking up. They'll start saying stuff like "Boss, can you send me an email confirming your views that, we should save money and risk the plane crashing if this one sensor fails? These sort of sensors have been known to fail."
Boss, "Wait, you grossly misheard me, I said we should rely on more than one sensor, Boeing places a high importance on safety!".
But why should there be any change, if all that happens is nobody of significance ends up in prison, the company pays some fines, the CEO gets a 60 million dollar parachute while keeping the rest of his millions.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/why-boeing-and-its-executives-should-be-prosecuted-for-manslaughter/ [counterpunch.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @04:24PM (1 child)
Ha ha ha!
Next email will be - Boss, I need this job, I made a mistake, there's no problems anywhere.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 17 2020, @07:48AM
Currently the problem is the risk of prison is low even for the normal grunts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @11:09AM (13 children)
Title says it all....
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @11:24AM (2 children)
With Boeing I fly.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday January 15 2020, @11:31AM (1 child)
Jews run Boeing, and their Chutzpah...excuse me, hubris, did this to them. What is needed is an expose' regarding how many Jews are in positions of power within Boeing.
I find it difficult to believe that Boeing, being a too-big-to-fail American corporation, is being thrown under the bus just now...unless, of course, people know about the Isreali backdoors in their aircraft which facilitated 9/11.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @11:58AM
Um, the Israeli backdoor is in our government which facilitated 9/11
Boeing [the military part] will be bailed out before it is thrown under the bus. The civilian market will divided up amongst the even more inferior brands from Europe, Brazil, and China. Good thing I'm done traveling. Walking to 7-11 is far enough for me.
(Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Wednesday January 15 2020, @12:35PM (9 children)
Funny, I saw my first real air problems being related to Airbus.
So no airbus and no boeing? Because every model of every company is flawed? No fly for you? Good.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday January 15 2020, @12:49PM (6 children)
No-fly is already wildly popular here because of TSA.
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(Score: 3, Touché) by SpockLogic on Wednesday January 15 2020, @01:53PM (3 children)
TSA = Thousands Standing Around.
Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Wednesday January 15 2020, @01:59PM (1 child)
TSA=Target Saturated Area.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:00PM
Touching Smelly Asses
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @07:50PM
Traveling Slave Abusers
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday January 15 2020, @07:11PM
I'm one, I swore off flying when they started the TSA. I spent three decades working for Illinois and have had more than my share of bureaucracy.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday January 16 2020, @02:57PM
Now I get it: It's all part of a secret plan to cut down the carbon emissions without actually telling the people by just making them not want to fly!;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Unixnut on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:59PM
> Funny, I saw my first real air problems being related to Airbus.
That may be so, but what we are being shown here is not just one persons anecdote about the quality of Boeing. Instead it is a systematic and cultural attitude towards pursuing profit above all else, including safety, engineering quality and following regulations. That is different. This has already caused the avoidable deaths of almost 400 people. This is important for anyone that relies on flying in life (which is a lot of us, and it is growing every year).
It is one thing if the odd Airbus has a problems (or even a crash) due to faults or design flaws that were not realised at the time. What we have here are known faults/design flaws being actively covered up, penny pinching overriding critical engineering decisions, and regulators being essentially lied to.
Also, from what I have heard the rot is not limited to the Max, the other Boeing aircraft are suffering from the same cultural attitude over the last couple of decades, just that the Max was the first to hit public scrutiny (i.e. Boeing pushed its luck too far with this plane).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @08:19PM
Guess you missed the Comet and the Electra.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Arik on Wednesday January 15 2020, @12:01PM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 15 2020, @12:54PM (1 child)
Clown world is very diverse. [boeing.com]
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:18PM
Something is very wrong hear.
I thought that when one put on a suit and neck tie that people can no longer perceive they are a clown. Simply remove the clown suit and make up. Then you suddenly are respectable and somehow magically competent.
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(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday January 15 2020, @03:33PM
If one thinks we can do say financial flying, think again. Once again humanity lost certain abilities. It will take an age of wars and revolutions to get them back.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday January 15 2020, @04:06PM
Plunging into Java sea (pron. C) because of faulty software...
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16 2020, @03:08PM
Seems fine i mean have you seen how many clowns can fit inside a mini? Now imagine that in a plane! Don't you want to maximize profits?