Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by janrinok on Sunday January 19 2020, @12:31PM   Printer-friendly

Galactic Settlement and the Fermi Paradox:

A spacefaring species could easily settle the entire Milky Way given billions of years. Yet the fact is that there is no obvious one in our solar system right now. The supposed inconsistency between these statements is the Fermi Paradox, named for the Nobel Prize-winning physicist who supposedly first formulated it. In a trenchant formulation of the Fermi Paradox, American astrophysicist Michael H. Hart called the lack of extraterrestrial beings or artifacts on Earth today "Fact A." He showed that most objections to his conclusion—that a spacefaring civilization could have crossed the galaxy by now—stem from either a lack of appreciation for the timescales involved (it takes a small extrapolation from present human technology to get interstellar ships, and even slow ships can star-hop across our galaxy in less time than the galaxy's age) or else the dubious assumption that all members of all extraterrestrial species will avoid colonizing behaviors forever (an example of what I've called the monocultural fallacy).

William Newman and Carl Sagan later wrote a major rebuttal to Hart's work, in which they argued that the timescales to populate the entire galaxy could be quite long. In particular, they noted that the colonization fronts Hart described through the Milky Way might move much more slowly than the speed of the colonization ships if their population growth rates were so low that they only needed to spread to nearby stars very rarely. They also argued that being a long-lived civilization is inconsistent with being a rapidly-expanding one, so any species bent on settling the galaxy would not last long enough to succeed. In other words, they reasoned that the galaxy could be filled with both short-lived rapidly expanding civilizations that don't get very far and long-lived slowly expanding civilizations that haven't gotten very far—either way, it's not surprising that we have not been visited.

Being a long-lived civilization is inconsistent with being a rapidly-expanding one.

In a 2014 paper on the topic, my colleagues and I rebutted many of these claims. In particular, we argued that one should not conflate the population growth in a single settlement with that of all settlements. There is no reason to suppose that population growth, resource depletion, or overcrowding drives the creation of new settlements, or that a small, sustainable settlement would never launch a new settlement ship. One can easily imagine a rapidly expanding network of small sustainable settlements (indeed, the first human migrations across the globe likely looked a lot like this).

Another factor affects Newman and Sagan's numbers on timescales and colonization-front speeds. Most of the prior work on this topic exploits percolation models, in which ships move about on a static two-dimensional substrate of stars. In these models, a star launching settlement ships can quickly settle all of the nearby stars, limiting the number of stars it can settle. But real stars move in three dimensions, meaning that they can carry their orbiting settlements throughout the galaxy, and that a settlement will always have fresh new stars to settle if it waits long enough.

Jonathan Carroll-Nellenback, at the University of Rochester with Adam Frank, not long ago finished work, with Caleb Scharf and me, on analytic and numerical models for how a realistic settlement front would behave in a real gas of stars, one characteristic of the galactic disk at our distance from the galactic center. The big advances here are a few:

Carroll-Nellenback validated an analytic formalism for settlement expansion fronts with numerical models for a realistic gas of stars. He accounted for finite settlement lifetimes, the idea that only a small fraction of stars will be settle-able, and explored the limits of very slow and infrequent settlement ships. He also explored a range of settlement behaviors to see how galactic settlement fronts depend on them.

The idea that not all stars are settle-able is important to keep in mind. Adam Frank calls this the Aurora effect, after the Kim Stanley Robinson novel in which a system is "habitable, but not settle-able."

A very interesting read.


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1) 2
  • (Score: 4, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Sunday January 19 2020, @01:00PM (63 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @01:00PM (#945267) Journal

    If only we had any examples of intelligent species that have lasted billions of years. Some of these arguments might make more sense then, right? With the limited examples that we have, it seems to take billions of years just to develop a semblance of intelligence.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:01PM (60 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:01PM (#945301)

      I think beyond this some of the arguments don't make any sense, at least not as plainly described.

      It seems practically self evident that rapidly expanding civilizations would be vastly more likely to survive than more static ones. Life in this universe is just a never-ending game of Russian roulette. Each century that you let pass, you're simply hoping that none of the gazillion different ways that life on a planet can come to an end, come to pass. We can even see a microcosm of this with terrestrial life. Those groups that traveled and expanded thrived. Those that stayed stagnant often simply ended up going extinct because much like planets can come to an end for a countless number of reasons, the same is true due to smaller scale events for each civilization on that planet.

      Let's put this even another way. Imagine in 5000 years two possible futures for Earth. In one future we have colonized Mars and Earth, each with billions of humans. In another future we've colonized thousands of planets with populations in the millions to tens of millions. Which civilization is more likely to last? Again, the answer seems practically self evident. I should try to dig up the letter. I have immense respect for Sagan, so I'm curious what he was seeing here.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:05PM

        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:05PM (#945305) Homepage Journal

        > It seems practically self evident that rapidly expanding civilizations would be vastly more likely to survive than more static ones.
        why is that so? maybe the thing that makes them 'reach out to the stars' is also the thing that annihilates them before that happens? If earth was just 1.7 bigger all rockets we use would be infeasible, would civilization living on a heavy world be discounted from start, nt wp, get smaller earth next time

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:08PM (58 children)

        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:08PM (#945308) Homepage Journal

        For the rest of your comment: imagine all civilizations are just developing intelligence, just like earth, we will learn about them the nudred or few K years from now, but it's all happening everywhere, now what? What are you even going to ask them? Do you also hate feminazis?

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:33PM (57 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:33PM (#945317) Journal

          What are you even going to ask them?

          Get ahold of their maths and history for starters. It's not like space weather is the only thing we could talk about.

          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:04PM (36 children)

            by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:04PM (#945334) Homepage Journal

            But then what? We agree -1 can have a square root, now what? Do you have a jesus?

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:18PM (35 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:18PM (#945343) Journal

              We agree -1 can have a square root, now what?

              Is that all of math?

              Do you have a jesus?

              Is that all of history?

              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:24PM (34 children)

                by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:24PM (#945347) Homepage Journal

                What do you expect? Like literally 'what could you get from a transmission'? We made you? Ok, so what? Others made you? Cool, so what? It's all random? Ok now what? We're still fucked in this world no matter what message we get, we're not going anywhere (as a race, maybe, oh I just used the r word oops)

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:40PM (33 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:40PM (#945361) Journal

                  We're still fucked in this world no matter what message we get, we're not going anywhere (as a race, maybe, oh I just used the r word oops)

                  So if we talk to aliens who aren't fucked, then we could at least find out a way to unfuck things, right?

                  • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:44PM (32 children)

                    by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:44PM (#945365) Homepage Journal

                    >So if we talk to aliens who aren't fucked, then we could at least find out a way to unfuck things, right?
                    That assumes they are in possression of some magical knowledge? What if all universe is fucked and having same trump issues right now? Are you gonna beam bernie sanders commercial to aliens from 5k years ago?

                    • (Score: 3, Funny) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:49PM (31 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:49PM (#945366) Journal

                      That assumes they are in possression of some magical knowledge?

                      If they figured out those answers then yes, by whatever you mean by magical, they got it.

                      What if all universe is fucked and having same trump issues right now?

                      Well, then we'd know.

                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:54PM (30 children)

                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:54PM (#945368) Homepage Journal

                        >If they figured out those answers then yes, by whatever you mean by magical, they got it.
                        You are trekkie? Still hoping there is a better and wiser out there galactic federation? Sorry to burst your bubble but we'd have discovered it by now, it's either all galactic species are hostile, or we're alone

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:05PM (29 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:05PM (#945373) Journal
                          Why not?

                          Sorry to burst your bubble but we'd have discovered it by now, it's either all galactic species are hostile, or we're alone

                          To the limits of our very limited ability to detect such things.

                          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:12PM (28 children)

                            by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:12PM (#945380) Homepage Journal

                            Like I said CMB is all intergalactic homo-sapiens saying hello, noone cares, we need 25B$ tool to disprove that or realise no matter how many billions we spend we're fucked like the rest

                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:20PM (27 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:20PM (#945384) Journal
                              Sounds like you have an opinion. What's it based on?
                              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:24PM (26 children)

                                by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:24PM (#945385) Homepage Journal

                                On all you drake-equation fetishists, omg multicellular life, omg dinosaurs, omg intelligence, you're planet denylists of our time (like yeah seriously 30 years ago people said our sun was special and there were no planets outside of solar system, how weird haha. this is you)

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:38PM (11 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:38PM (#945391) Journal
                                  So in other words, it's not based on evidence. Cool story, bro, but you're missing the mark. My take is that there is a huge potential to speaking to any intelligent life that has developed under different circumstances. Maybe they solved better the common problems we have and made discoveries that aren't a proper subset of our own. If they live under radically different environmental circumstances, then that can help us (or perhaps our gear) live under those same circumstances. And of course, it would be a data point for those drake-equation fetishists you deride.
                                  • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:46PM (10 children)

                                    by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:46PM (#945398) Homepage Journal

                                    >My take is that there is a huge potential to speaking to any intelligent life that has developed under different circumstances. Maybe they solved better the common problems we have and made discoveries that aren't a proper subset of our own. If they live under radically different environmental circumstances, then that can help us (or perhaps our gear) live under those same circumstances.
                                    Cool story bro, here's NASA take on it:
                                    pioneer plaque.png
                                    Two genders, 9 planets, oh and if you squint enough there is some info on how to fight diseases??? Is that what you're trying to sell lol

                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:48PM (9 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:48PM (#945400) Journal

                                      Is that what you're trying to sell lol

                                      Nope. If I were communicating, it'd be more than just an engraved disk worth of knowledge.

                                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:52PM (8 children)

                                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:52PM (#945402) Homepage Journal

                                        Yeah like what exactly? Can you give us an example what people of earth could send without getting raped for it 40 years later and thinking about cosmic scales? 2 genders and 9 planets ain't it my friend, think of something more inclusive, but you'll end up a bigot anyway, so have fun

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:12PM (7 children)

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:12PM (#945409) Journal
                                          Wikipedia, for example.
                                          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:18PM (6 children)

                                            by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:18PM (#945411) Homepage Journal

                                            Is this a joke? Maybe a wikipedia history of any problematic article?

                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @01:29AM (5 children)

                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @01:29AM (#945593) Journal
                                              If Wikipedia is a joke, they've been pulling the wool over our eyes for a generation.
                                              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Monday January 20 2020, @02:41AM

                                                by szopin (5710) on Monday January 20 2020, @02:41AM (#945616) Homepage Journal

                                                And yet every professor tells you to treat wikipedia with a huge grain of salt, he surely got his wool pulled off

                                              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Monday January 20 2020, @02:43AM (3 children)

                                                by szopin (5710) on Monday January 20 2020, @02:43AM (#945619) Homepage Journal

                                                OMG wait you want to send wikipedia to other civilizations>>????? lol sure go ahead pls send them articles with history like palestine and jesus, go fucking do it

                                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @04:51AM (2 children)

                                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @04:51AM (#945663) Journal
                                                  Sounds like you think there might be a problem in there somewhere. I also don't see the point in making human history look pretty to outsiders.
                                                  • (Score: 1) by szopin on Monday January 20 2020, @05:14AM (1 child)

                                                    by szopin (5710) on Monday January 20 2020, @05:14AM (#945672) Homepage Journal

                                                    Yeah like literally sending other civilizations 'khallow' would be a shitty idea, but some (khallow) will push for it, no dude you are not a good idea for first contact

                                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @03:16PM

                                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @03:16PM (#945845) Journal
                                                      I noticed a few posts in that you lost a lot of coherency. You're just not thinking - and certainly not telling us what little you are thinking.

                                                      Here, why make some special information package for aliens, when we've already spent almost twenty years (and far more man-years than you can imagine) making a package for us? What's the problem? Is it a matter of security? We could sanitize military data out of the mix, if that's a problem. Is it inaccuracy? We could filter out the latest level of trolling and otherwise stick in a warning that there are biases present and the nature of these will change as the content changes. Even that would be very informative to an alien species.
                                • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:27PM (13 children)

                                  by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:27PM (#945468)

                                  (like yeah seriously 30 years ago people said our sun was special and there were no planets outside of solar system, how weird haha. this is you)

                                  This is wrong. As soon as we discovered that other stars are just like ours, we realised there could be planets orbiting them.

                                  • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:55PM (12 children)

                                    by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:55PM (#945489) Homepage Journal

                                    And yet as soon we realised life happened 1 bil year on earth, we are still debating life outside of earth

                                    • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:10PM (11 children)

                                      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:10PM (#945498)

                                      No-one is debating whether life outside our solar system is possible, it quite obviously is.

                                      What we are doing is actively looking for it. We haven't found it yet, but it is early days, and we're not putting much effort in are we?

                                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:37PM (6 children)

                                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:37PM (#945508) Homepage Journal

                                        >What we are doing is actively looking for it
                                        lol, so untrue, you had an experiment in 70s that said yes, life on mars, what did NASA do? Send a follow up? Noooope, why even bother, jesus is great

                                        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:08PM

                                          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:08PM (#945529)

                                          you had an experiment in 70s that said yes, life on mars

                                          Citation Required.

                                          Have a wee look at this. [nasa.gov] It is a start, even if we're not putting much effort in, as I said.

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @05:00AM (4 children)

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @05:00AM (#945666) Journal

                                          lol, so untrue, you had an experiment in 70s that said yes, life on mars, what did NASA do?

                                          NASA has been pretty shitty in what it's done over the decades, but even they have done more than a dozen missions [wikipedia.org] in that 40 years span. And yes, that's Wikipedia.

                                          Too bad that so many missions don't mean a thing to you because they didn't stick a labeled-release experiment on them.

                                          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Monday January 20 2020, @05:12AM (3 children)

                                            by szopin (5710) on Monday January 20 2020, @05:12AM (#945670) Homepage Journal

                                            >Too bad that so many missions don't mean a thing to you because they didn't stick a labeled-release experiment on them.

                                            You seem to be angry about ignoring nasa, but also want to praise nasa for their experiment? Can you make up your fucking mind please?

                                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:55PM (3 children)

                                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:55PM (#945517) Homepage Journal

                                        >What we are doing is actively looking for it.

                                        cope, NASA has still not followed up on labeled release, but we're actively looking, nope

                                        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:10PM (2 children)

                                          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:10PM (#945533)

                                          Is there any chance you could write in sentences, and use proper words? It will make your comments easier to understand.

                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @01:03AM (1 child)

                                            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @01:03AM (#945582)

                                            A few more replies to get the all time record on reply indentation

                                            • (Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Monday January 20 2020, @07:16AM

                                              by gtomorrow (2230) on Monday January 20 2020, @07:16AM (#945705)

                                              I'M IN!!!

                                              (Beats reading Abbott and Costello here bantering back and forth.)

          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:07PM (19 children)

            by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:07PM (#945337) Homepage Journal

            Btw my alien-kink is thinking CMB is all the civilizations sending their hello, now what? messages. Now what? If life is all over the place, now what? We still are earthbound and gonna suffer like all of them sending those texts thousands of years ago, I guess dab on christcucks? They'll just update their books

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:29PM (18 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:29PM (#945352) Journal

              If life is all over the place, now what? We still are earthbound and gonna suffer like all of them sending those texts thousands of years ago, I guess dab on christcucks?

              Earthbound for now. There's no reason to expect that to be a permanent thing. And knowledge is how you're typing stuff on a screen in the first place. Any civilization capable of communicating with us and having the intellectual inclination to try probably has something to offer.

              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:41PM (17 children)

                by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:41PM (#945363) Homepage Journal

                >Any civilization capable of communicating with us and having the intellectual inclination to try probably has something to offer.
                Like what? Hey guys we figured out DNA! There is no god. We're all fucked, make all you will with the brief moment you have? Or do you expect something like: if you blink three times in a rowand then do a dab god appears>?

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:44PM (16 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:44PM (#945364) Journal

                  Hey guys we figured out DNA!

                  So all those aliens are going to have the exact same sort of DNA? Interesting.

                  We're all fucked, make all you will with the brief moment you have?

                  How long is this "brief" moment?

                  • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:50PM (15 children)

                    by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:50PM (#945367) Homepage Journal

                    Your life is a brief moment, so brief you will never receive a reply from an alien, who woud've thunk eh?
                    Oh god they have different DNA? Amazing, now what? Uranium based aliens use uranium in their DNA, amazing discovery

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:04PM (14 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:04PM (#945372) Journal

                      Your life is a brief moment

                      So what? It doesn't mean that will always be the case. Posthumans might eventually live billions or trillions of years. That would be more than enough time.

                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:08PM (13 children)

                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:08PM (#945376) Homepage Journal

                        Are you still counting on it? Noone fucking cares if you live for a 100 or a thousand years, galactic evolution takes place in the billions, again pls answer what do you expect aliens to tell you? Like what we sent in pioneer plaque? Yo: we have like 9 planets and only two genders. Fucking message is outdated not even century of sending it over

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:20PM (12 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:20PM (#945383) Journal
                          Why should it be relevant that I be the one to live a billion years?

                          Noone fucking cares if you live for a 100 or a thousand years

                          I'm pretty should I care.

                          And as I noted, I was speaking of future beings capable of living through a lot of galactic evolution.

                          • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:27PM (11 children)

                            by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:27PM (#945386) Homepage Journal

                            Let me speak of the generations later on, we have 9 planets and two genders, you will be laughed at as you are now

                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:30PM (10 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:30PM (#945387) Journal

                              Let me speak of the generations later on, we have 9 planets and two genders, you will be laughed at as you are now

                              By who? And why do you think that would be the only two facts I'd present, should the opportunity exist?

                              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:32PM (2 children)

                                by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:32PM (#945388) Homepage Journal

                                The idea is whatever you think will be 'deep and meaningful' was just raped by last decade of 'intelligents', the whole pioneer message is now fucking problematic, go figure one that will not get ruined by ideologues of future?

                              • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:35PM (6 children)

                                by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:35PM (#945389) Homepage Journal

                                Applying moral values of the future us is harder than fucking launching rockets

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:41PM (5 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:41PM (#945394) Journal

                                  Applying moral values of the future us is harder than fucking launching rockets

                                  Because I wouldn't be around to apply them. Otherwise it'd be pretty damn easy. The problems aren't going to change that much.

                                  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:48PM (4 children)

                                    by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:48PM (#945401) Homepage Journal

                                    >The problems aren't going to change that much.
                                    Says the white male launching rockets in 2020, very problematic already right now. Dude just think for a second about the pioneer plaque, it had totally zero wrongthink in the 70s, but now is totally problematic, you will be the same, thrown to the sides of progress, so please stop preaching abou tthe future, you will be the one to get rid off

                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:11PM (3 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:11PM (#945408) Journal
                                      Not for me. The brain suckers don't stick to you, if you don't let them.
                                      • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:20PM (1 child)

                                        by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:20PM (#945413) Homepage Journal

                                        Oh, glad you are the one that will write all the bbc/cnn articles about pioneer plaque in the future, problem solved, just have a dictator for life, what happens when you die tho linus torvalds?

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @01:28AM

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @01:28AM (#945592) Journal
                                          Or I can ignore this weighty non problem and nothing happens. I got this.
                                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:32PM

                                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:32PM (#945472)

                                        You might be wasting your time with that one.

                                        His worldview seems to be too small to really think about the issues in the article clearly.

    • (Score: 1) by szopin on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:01PM (1 child)

      by szopin (5710) on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:01PM (#945303) Homepage Journal

      Only few hundred K years, or do you think dinosaurs would develop rockets?

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Bot on Sunday January 19 2020, @01:52PM

    by Bot (3902) on Sunday January 19 2020, @01:52PM (#945275) Journal

    Other than the Fermi paradox paradox ("I discovered nukes: why won't aliens speak to us?"), we would be discussing an unproven premise, that aliens haven't contacted us. And making assumptions like, the only way to travel is to physically transfer matter, aliens share that same dimensional orders of magnitude, all reports linked to aliens or demonology are fraud or mere psychological suggestion. We are in the domain of wild speculation.

    --
    Account abandoned.
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @02:36PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @02:36PM (#945287)

    As described by Cixin Liu?
    Knowing it is not safe out there, the aliens keep well hidden like animals in a forest.

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:15PM (1 child)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:15PM (#945410) Homepage
      Constantly squawking and howling?
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @08:47PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @08:47PM (#945457)

        Sound does not give away your exact position, as those trying to find a singing bird can attest to.

  • (Score: 1) by oumuamua on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:28PM

    by oumuamua (8401) on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:28PM (#945314)
  • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:29PM (22 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:29PM (#945315)

    The possibilities have all been explored at length, and the only plausible scenario is that we are the only technological civilization in the galaxy, probably in the whole Local Group. You can debate about why that is, but none of the other possibilities hold up.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:55PM (20 children)

      by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:55PM (#945328) Journal
      Simple - any species that develops advanced technology end up killing itself off. The only example we have should be sufficient proof. Civilizations that are stable won't have any reason to do more than observe from a distance. And generation ships full of humans won't survive any more than any advanced civilization on earth has.

      We already know that machines are fit to explore the universe, and humans aren't. Just admit it. Our robots will still be exploring the universe long after we either kill ourselves or genetic drift means we are no longer humans.

      --
      SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:38PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:38PM (#945358)

        any species that develops advanced technology end up killing itself off. The only example we have should be sufficient proof

        *double checks*
        We seem to still be alive.

        Our robots will still be exploring the universe long after we either kill ourselves or genetic drift means we are no longer humans.

        It's possible. It might be that the civilization that ends up settling the galaxy is mechanical rather than biological. That does not change the Fermi paradox, though. If anything, it makes it more likely that humanity is alone, because robots would be less susceptible to the various hazards that make space travel difficult, and travel time would be almost irrelevant to them. And therefore they would have an easier time of it, and would be more likely to have already done so.

        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:41PM

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:41PM (#945479)

          *double checks*
          We seem to still be alive.

          Speak for yourself.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:38PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @04:38PM (#945359) Journal

        And generation ships full of humans won't survive any more than any advanced civilization on earth has.

        Which has already survived several centuries to millennia, depending on how you count "advanced" to mean.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:21PM (10 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday January 19 2020, @06:21PM (#945414) Homepage
        > Our robots will still be exploring the universe long after we either kill ourselves or genetic drift means we are no longer humans.

        What do you mean "still"? We have no robots exploring the universe currently.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:57PM (9 children)

          by gawdonblue (412) on Sunday January 19 2020, @09:57PM (#945492)

          The Voyagers are still exploring, and will be for a few more years. There's nothing to stop humanity from building explorer bots designed for interstellar missions taking thousands of years (except, of course, for the lack of short-term payback).

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:20PM (8 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday January 19 2020, @10:20PM (#945502) Homepage
            You must have a bloody weird definition of both "robot" and "exploring" IMHO.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:24PM (7 children)

              by gawdonblue (412) on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:24PM (#945541)

              Robot definition: A robot is a machine which is programmed to move and perform certain tasks automatically.

              And Voyagers' programming is ... drumroll ... Exploring!

              • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:40PM (6 children)

                by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Sunday January 19 2020, @11:40PM (#945548) Homepage
                it's now purely ballistic, I deny that's exploring. Nor is it looking for anything any more. There's no exploring at all, I'd say. Musk's martian Tesla could have a better case made for it.
                --
                Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday January 20 2020, @12:16AM (5 children)

                  by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Monday January 20 2020, @12:16AM (#945567) Journal
                  The first artificial satellites were purely ballistic. Including the ones that impacted the moon.
                  --
                  SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
                  • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday January 20 2020, @12:44AM (4 children)

                    by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday January 20 2020, @12:44AM (#945578) Homepage
                    and you're caling those "robots"? this gets weirder and weirder.
                    --
                    Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @05:42AM (3 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @05:42AM (#945678) Journal

                      and you're caling those "robots"?

                      Is "artificial satellite" a synonym for "robots"?

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @05:50AM (1 child)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @05:50AM (#945681) Journal
                        Sorry, rather a proper subset of "robots"?
                        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday January 20 2020, @11:43AM

                          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday January 20 2020, @11:43AM (#945749) Homepage
                          Ditti, no.
                          --
                          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday January 20 2020, @11:43AM

                        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday January 20 2020, @11:43AM (#945748) Homepage
                        No.
                        --
                        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:44PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:44PM (#945434)

        We already know that machines are fit to explore the universe, and humans aren't.

        It has always been the case that SOME humans are unfit for exploration. And, we wish that you would shut up, sit down, and stop bothering us.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @05:54AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @05:54AM (#945684) Journal
          Come to think of it, some machines aren't fit for exploring either. I wouldn't recommend my hammer for a SETI search.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:53PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @07:53PM (#945441)

        There's a much better explanation in my opinion: pleasure. Few people take on children as a feeling of a public responsibility. Most do so either accidentally or because their biological clock kicks in and you face this overwhelming desire to have a child. I'm sure some fools also get into thinking it'd be fun and entertaining. To annihilate humankind all you need to is to create something that's sufficiently more pleasurable than the motivations and innate drives that push us to have children. Alternatively, develop drugs that enable people to suppress these urges.

        I think these are vastly more likely than us nuking ourselves to death because pleasure is actively, enthusiastically, and voluntarily spread. Death and destruction is something folks tend to try to avoid. Your underground military bases or bomb shelters can save you from a nuke. But nothing can save you from enjoying yourself to point of letting yourself fade into nothingness while failing to reproduce.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @05:59AM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @05:59AM (#945685) Journal

          But nothing can save you from enjoying yourself to point of letting yourself fade into nothingness while failing to reproduce.

          I can think of a number of ways that can happen. Such as being unable to feel such pleasure. Or wiring the pleasure so that it reinforces the reproduction instincts rather than the other way around. Or using robotics that to birth and rear the children without distracted human involvement.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @12:44PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @12:44PM (#945767)

            Pleasure, like pain, is probably a universal. It's little more than an evolutionary trick to push an organism towards good outcomes. Something that can never feel pleasure would have difficulty ever choosing the correct action. And similarly one that cannot feel pain would have difficulties avoiding bad outcomes. Any species that evolves such sensory devices would be many orders of magnitude more successful than any other species.

            It's only once you reach a certain level of cognition that you suddenly learn how to game the system to the point that we can actively and purposefully make things that feel good yet provide extremely negative outcomes. For instance this is also why I doubt there will ever be a species with perfect memory. Imagine we had perfectly crystal clear memories of events alongside all sensory perceptions. It's likely we'd end up dying off as a species as we sit around memory-bating to the most pleasant moments. Directly analogous to how we may end up killing ourselves off with artificially generated pleasure.

            The big argument against this is natural selection. Those that are capable of putting interests aside of mere pleasure would end up having a tremendous evolutionary come reproductive advantage that would gradually spread to everybody. Yet the reason I think this argument is weak is because of the timeline this will happen in. Reaching 'max pleasure' will likely be an event that goes 0 to max in a matter of a few decades. It could even, in theory, happen within our lives. And so evolutionary mechanics would not have time to kick in. On the other hand one might argue it will be a slow progression. Perhaps we've already begun it with the development of practically endless delicious food. Those that indulge grow fat, die young, and more frequently fail to reproduce or produce defective offspring. Those that don't, thrive. I have no idea how to even begin to weight the probabilities. It's complex.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @02:42PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @02:42PM (#945833) Journal
              All the solutions I pointed to can be implemented in zero generations too.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @04:07AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @04:07AM (#945647)

      Right, because we have peaked technological progress and there is no chance we're aren't missing something. Also, assuming we didn't destroy civilization a few times in the past there could be intelligent beings out there still learning how to make fire.

      Also, you expand the "only plausible explanation" to the whole galaxy and then several others? Pretty big claim with very little evidence. I think we'd need to visit at least the nearest couple of dozen systems before such a decree.

  • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:47PM (13 children)

    by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Sunday January 19 2020, @03:47PM (#945321) Journal

    [ill bite, strap in.]
    Everyone: "J, Mr. Hudson, um,"

    J: "J is fine."

    Everyone: "J, where are all the aliens?"

    J: "I think they are probably here already. I say this because I have watched and read everything on the internet. Where there is that much smoke, there is simply fire. I've seen a couple things that I cannot explain any other way and when it came out that Oswald was definitely working with the CIA, I stopped believing anything from the sources who lied about it, and so should you." https://archive.is/rvZTo [archive.is]

    Everyone: "Why don't we see aliens everywhere then?" (short answer, you're not looking, some people *with wicked-freaky patents to their name* are at least REPORTING them with pictures: https://archive.is/Vp0qF) [archive.is]

    J: "Why do you use a vpn? Encryption? Why do you have a bill of rights to guarantee privacy? Same reason. Second reason, they don't just not want to be seen, they are also spread out, which is easy in space. Think about it, if you could go anywhere, why would you come here? Or to any city? Nobody wants to live in a city. Everybody wants a spaceship. Once you got one, I bet you wouldn't hang out around a big bullseye target either would you?"

    Everyone: "Why don't they come out and be seen then?"

    J: "Because they aren't 8 year olds, they are a lot older, and power is a very real thing. Their greatest power, over us at least, that they have is that we do not think they are there, they will not come off of that unless they have to. They have nothing to gain by telling us, but they have everything to gain by not telling us, lol. Not a difficult decision for them. Likewise the humans who know are also on a huge power jolt. They know what is really going on and no one else does. They think they do. But no one has seen the depths, that is where everything gets murky. And what proof would demonstrate it to you that could not simply be faked? This is why some people say our true form of government is a cryptocracy, we are ruled by secrets. Gnostic/knowledge warfare is real. Like I have been saying...Have you read any David Brin?" (https://archive.is/kJKap, https://archive.ph/EdHYz, [archive.ph] https://archive.is/YxuED, [archive.is] https://archive.is/iOckl, [archive.is] https://archive.ph/gPWRk, [archive.ph] https://archive.is/bRCdQ, [archive.is] https://archive.is/5b8cm [archive.is] )

    Everyone:"So, in your cosmic view, the galaxy is actually already "settled" and "explored." (short answer, well I mean, we are here aren't we, and we are in the galaxy, soooo)

    J: "I think that is the far most likely situation. And if you have that power to go anywhere guess who you do not want tooling around your mulberry lane in a craft that can move in more than 4 dimensions, Florida Man. At the same point in time, you may need some ninja/slave manpower at some point in the future. You may have an isle of dr. moreau thing going on and/or need 'genetics' for the survival of your species. You may be able to wear a skin suit and like the beach in tahiti."

    Everyone:"So the aliens may be all around us." (short answer, dude, I meet a lot of humans who I find it very hard to relate to already....consider: https://archive.is/9AP2G) [archive.is]

    J:"You can't prove it either way. "Proving" anything requires something you do not have. Credibility is *the thing* that is most closely guarded around here.(see https://archive.is/ULMpO, [archive.is] https://archive.is/kJKap) [archive.is] "Men in Black" could be the real scenario, your only actual reason not to wonder about that already is because of what you are taught and anyone who suggests it is openly, roundly, loudly, mocked and blacklisted.(that's a hint...) It is not something that could be proven. It would also be something difficult to prove even if you saw one. But can everyone be making it up? There are lights in the sky that do not match the profile of jets or propeller craft. The mass media covered up and is still covering up epstein, if they can't handle that kind of story, then how do you expect a talking head is going to respond to you bringing them the 3 fingered hand you chopped off in your backyard? Right, nobody. I am trying to report something so simple as Palantir coordinated stalking by secret police in the usa and no one wants to even hear it, much less believe it."

    Everyone:"You're scaring the shit out of me." (short answer, chill out here till you're ready to continue: https://archive.is/b4IoT [archive.is] )

    J:"Good, because I think that is the appropriate primal response to your situation. Our situation, perhaps, depending on what your actual intentions are around here. Unwelcome to the dark forest. /s

    These links are my best candle in the dark. Where I come from people help each other, so I hope this helps. Frankly though, under this state of affairs, now that I have said things like this in public,I am not sure I can work anymore at any normal jobs,(https://archive.is/f4TVo ) and could myself use a contribution to my work if you have it. Now would be a good time, that is the truth."

    thesesystemsarefailing.net
    decultification.org
    jmichaelhudson.net/my-memes
    (full disclosure i have never seen any aliens, i just saw some zippy lights in the sky one time that i bet were govt, the rest of this is just conjecture, distillation, discernment and deduction.)

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:03PM (10 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:03PM (#945371) Journal

      And what proof would demonstrate it to you that could not simply be faked?

      Sophisticated robot on the White House lawn. Mile wide flying saucer hoovering over New York City. Giant inverted pyramids stealing our water. As for lesser standards of proof, something that is obviously extraterrestrial in nature, like a sentient being with biology that has nothing in common with Earth. Notice that none of the examples I gave are pictures. Just because there is a lot of smoke doesn't mean that there is fire.

      • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Monday January 20 2020, @01:15PM (9 children)

        by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Monday January 20 2020, @01:15PM (#945784) Journal

        But they would be pictures until you went there and saw it, which you probably would not be able to do.

        Once they gave us the single convincer and cnn approved it was real(tm, really this 'CNN Approved Reality' might actually be a product they could sell to rubes like you at this point), you would still not get a chance to put your own hands on whatever it was.

        Your worship of the tv runs so deeply, you probably still believe the wtc collapsed because of 'load bearing outer walls' and 'furniture fires' and 'the jet fuel burning in elevator shafts.'

        Until CNN can tell me the truth of that, every other thing they report will have the lilttle *but if it was in their interest these asshats would tell me any lie no matter how vast and unbelievable. https://archive.is/blM4a [archive.is]

        That said, a giant spaceship would *probably* seal the deal but not necessarily. Do you think though that they could make a hologram that big? And another hologram of a helicopter crashing into it?

        I kindof do at this point. (also the main point of my comment is that the aliens would absolutely not do that, it would reveal their power level and that is what the facts tell us is the thing that is considered bad form in the dark forest, I kindof also consider large spaceships also have a short lifespan in the universe due to the size of the presented target and the likelihood of tiny powerful weapons like idk "the grasshopper" from MIB.)

        Monstanto lied about the safety of its milk by paying off local news, the journalists said that was a crime, the journalists lost and had to pay the lawyer fees. If they can lie about the biology of the milk in the supermarket, they could lie about the 'biology' of any being also.

        You will notice this 'believe cnn' vs 'don't believe cnn' is splitting the entire english speaking world, splitting recorded human history. And that would likely continue in any event where we had to rely on them to tell us the wishes of our new, possibly fictional, overlords.

        But hey we have you to tell us we can trust Michael Baden's autopsy of Epstein, so I hope you are rolling in the big bucks for that great service you are providing us with your insight into current events.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @04:15PM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @04:15PM (#945862) Journal

          But they would be pictures until you went there and saw it

          Because? And yes, I can go there and see it. That makes it a huge step up as evidence.

          Your worship of the tv runs so deeply,

          I don't own a TV.

          Do you think though that they could make a hologram that big?

          Even if they could, it'd be obviously detectable as a hologram say when a drone flies through it or someone shines a laser pointer at it.

          Monstanto lied about the safety of its milk by paying off local news, the journalists said that was a crime, the journalists lost and had to pay the lawyer fees.

          That's one way to spin it. Another is that the journalists were acting as biased activists rather than impartially reporting the news. They lost the case, right?

          But hey, don't let me get in the way of this great narrative you have going.

          • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Monday January 20 2020, @09:48PM (2 children)

            by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Monday January 20 2020, @09:48PM (#946009) Journal

            That case was in florida, the judge was florida man.

            And I have looked into this one, they were not activists, the guy is still a journalist.

            Peter B. Collins has one of the most reputable podcasts there is.

            You should look into things before you just doubt everything, turns out there is such a thing as reality.

            TV and video are interchangeable, it is what 'programming' you watch, and your level of dependence on it for understanding the world and feeling a part of society.

            Do you believe anything that would not be allowed on CNN or Fox, for example? that is a better test.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @11:36PM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @11:36PM (#946065) Journal

              You should look into things

              And then what? Sorry, I've seen this game played before. Fox News and Monsanto are pretty shifty, but so are the environmentalists who do this sort of thing. I note you can't even be bothered to name the couple (it's not Peter B. Collins). I can't either, but that's because I forgot and won't bother to look again.

              TV and video are interchangeable

              Don't watch much video either and what I have watched is often counterculture.

              Do you believe anything that would not be allowed on CNN or Fox, for example? that is a better test.

              Test of what? I can think of a number of theories which I don't believe in, such as flat Earth theory or Electric Universe that would have tough luck on CNN or Fox. We aren't illuminated by this particular overlap between belief and what is allowed.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 20 2020, @04:17PM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 20 2020, @04:17PM (#945864) Journal
          Also, can you connect to these links you're dropping? I get "Unable to connect Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at archive.is."
          • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Monday January 20 2020, @09:57PM (3 children)

            by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Monday January 20 2020, @09:57PM (#946013) Journal

            I can just fine, but I egress from a free country.

            If you cannot access archive.is then you are not on the internet.

            There are also viewers and ways to see things like that, but I am not your technical support unless you are paying for my services.

            I am good though, so it would be worth it.

            Opening retainer though is a little steep for people who never have anything nice to say.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 22 2020, @04:51AM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 22 2020, @04:51AM (#946704) Journal

              If you cannot access archive.is then you are not on the internet.

              Fault is archive.is [twitter.com] not the internet.

              "Having to do" is not so direct here. Absence of EDNS and massive mismatch (not only on AS/Country, but even on the continent level) of where DNS and related HTTP requests come from causes so many troubles so I consider EDNS-less requests from Cloudflare as invalid.

              I guess I'm on a portion of the internet that doesn't support extended DNS stuff.

              • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:00PM (1 child)

                by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:00PM (#946823) Journal

                I have said this before cloudflare is not the internet.

                Archive.is could be considered one of their rivals, so is a rival.

                Cloudflare is a dangerous monopoly that de-anonymizes and bans anonymity covertly, if you are using it to the point of blind dependence, as in you think the icelandic web does not exist because of one of its glitches that you have to go look up after accusing someone else of bad links, that is a failure on several levels already.

                I can't help you with that, especially if you want to blame it on archive.is, one of the best things on the internet.

                Reminder:
                https://archive.is/f4TVo [archive.is]

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:45PM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:45PM (#946829) Journal

                  as in you think the icelandic web does not exist because of one of its glitches

                  To the contrary, I can access the .is domain. This is coming from archive.is not CloudFlare or whatever messed up ISP I happen to be reliant on.

    • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:14PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 19 2020, @05:14PM (#945381)

      “ some people *with wicked-freaky patents to their name* are at least REPORTING them with pictures”

      Wicked-freaky patents for things that make for interesting atmospheric propulsion but do absolutely fuck-all for extra-terrestrial propulsion at any distance, let alone interplanetary, much less interstellar.

      The only thing any of that proves or even suggests is the astonishing credulity of humans.

(1) 2