How better to work on Open Source projects than to use a Libre computing device? But that's a hard goal to accomplish. If you're using a desktop computer, Libre software is easily achievable, though keeping your entire software stack free of closed source binary blobs might require a little extra work. But if you want a laptop, your options are few indeed. Lucky for us, there may be another device in the mix soon, because [Lukas Hartmann] has just about finalized the MNT Reform.
Since we started eagerly watching the Reform a couple years ago the hardware world has kept turning, and the Reform has improved accordingly. The i.MX6 series CPU is looking a little peaky now that it's approaching end of life, and the device has switched to a considerably more capable – but no less free – i.MX8M paired with 4 GB of DDR4 on a SODIMM-shaped System-On-Module. This particular SOM is notable because the manufacturer freely provides the module schematics, making it easy to upgrade or replace in the future. The screen has been bumped up to a 12.5″ 1080p panel and steps have been taken to make sure it can be driven without blobs in the graphics pipeline.
What has Soylentils' experience with open hardware been?
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @01:22AM
I use mine to run Adobe Photoshop on Windows 10 and I enjoy the freedom of a system that is free of proprietary blobs like systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:16AM (19 children)
Surely by now we should be seeing consumer devices with at least 16GB ram.
There was a serious problem in the 1990s with ram prices due to collusion. Is this occurring now to keep ram prices high?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by takyon on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:44AM (15 children)
The problem is from 2012 to now [jcmit.net]. DRAM demand has been high, NAND demand is extremely high and more capacity is allocated to it, industry consolidated (Elpida filed for bankruptcy in 2012), and there has probably been price fixing, collusion, and well-timed "power outages".
Another factor is that Windows minimum RAM requirements [learnwebcoding.com] flattened instead of doubling, due to optimizations. Windows 10 can run on 1-2 GB, same as version 7 from 2009. 4 GB is preferred, 8 GB is probably more than enough for most people. Linux, ChromeOS, and Android should need even less than Windows (that Nokia story set for tomorrow is about a 2 GB phone). SSDs alleviate some of the need for RAM by boosting storage IOPS.
China is planning to get into NAND and DRAM production soon, which may help. Density is continuing to increase, and various stacking methods can be used.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Common Joe on Wednesday January 22 2020, @03:22AM (14 children)
Windows 10 on 2 GB? That's a laugh and very misleading.
Based on my experience, 4GB is enough to barely to keep the operating system running. 8 GB is good if you have an SSD. The SSD is a requirement.
I just sold a 10 year old laptop that could only run Linux. It had 8 GB RAM and an HDD. I tried putting Windows 10 on it, but the hard drive never stopped chugging. Literally. I could just let it sit there for an hour or two and the hard drive never stopped. It ran so slow, that it was basically impossible to do anything. The monthly updates made the problem even worse. With Windows 10, it's sole purpose could only be to consume electricity without doing anything useful.
Today, my secondary computer is 8 GB with SSD and it runs Windows on the bare metal. Hardware-wise, it's not a problem. (Obviously, the OS still sucks.) My experience running it on 4 GB is limited to running Windows with 8 GB, but subtracting 4 GB for a virtual machine. Trying to do anything useful in my Windows host didn't go too well. No surprise when modern day basic web surfing can easily consume 1 GB or more of RAM.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday January 22 2020, @03:29AM (10 children)
https://char.learnwebcoding.com/help/windows_system_requirements.html [learnwebcoding.com]
That is what they say. It might require a cut-down version [wikipedia.org], such as Windows 10 S or Windows 10 IoT, to get acceptable performance with it. But it should still run.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Common Joe on Wednesday January 22 2020, @04:40AM (9 children)
I had looked at the link you provided in the original post. And I did not mean what you said was laughable or misleading, but rather the requirements the link provided. Sorry if that was unclear.
I hadn't considered Windows S or IoT. Interesting observation. Although, I have to mention that minimum requirements given out Microsoft always meant extremely poor performance since at least Windows 95.
Having had the problems I did with 4 GB, I couldn't (and still can't) imagine 64-bit Win 10 on 2 GB.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Wednesday January 22 2020, @05:04AM (7 children)
Windows 10 IoT Core [windowscentral.com] in particular runs on Raspberry Pi 2 and 3, which both had 1 GB of RAM. This experience is so cut down that it is difficult to call it Windows 10.
2 GB of RAM will theoretically work, and it is still common to see deals for 4 GB systems today:
https://slickdeals.net/f/13735292 [slickdeals.net]
https://slickdeals.net/f/13700204 [slickdeals.net]
https://slickdeals.net/f/13732478 [slickdeals.net]
It's not going to be great, but the recommendation is not that different from Windows 7. Windows 7 was usable with 4 GB, but you wanted to have 8 GB. I helped upgrade a couple people to 8 GB back then. That remains true with Windows 10 a decade later, and overlaps with an ongoing ~7-year stagnation in DRAM pricing since 2012.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday January 23 2020, @05:45AM (6 children)
Interesting info, thanks -- I'll have to try that, just because.
Yeah, I was just noticing that there sure seem to be a lot of 4GB systems out there even today. I'm wondering if the OEM and Surface Pro versions of Win10 might be slicked up some, compared to the public ISO.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Thursday January 23 2020, @06:38AM (3 children)
It would be easier to not care if more of these systems were upgradeable. I would have no qualms with buying a $100 laptop and then slamming 32 GB of RAM in it for another $100, creating an unnatural $200 beast. But a lot of the RAM is soldered with no empty DIMM slots, or support is limited to 8 or 16 GB in a single empty DIMM, DIMMs take invasive surgery to access, etc. That's due to the pursuit of thinness.
You could reference blackviper.com to disable unnecessary components to improve system performance and RAM usage, but that's not really fair for a non-savvy user who picks up a low-end system.
There probably is some slicking up for Surface. And there is slightly customized AMD and Qualcomm hardware for Surface now.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Thursday January 23 2020, @07:32AM (2 children)
Blackviper used to be my neighbor :) (Well, a few miles up the road. We've both since moved away.) Yeah, I've been meaning to check his latest service configs, but since my current hardware doesn't really notice all the crap running, I haven't been real motivated. And Win10's interface gives me hives, so I don't spend much time with it.
Agreed on the soldered/non-upgradable. Got nothin' against frankenputers. Don't like disposable much. My sister's office buys Surface Pros by the pallet to use in the field, says they have good performance... when I looked at the specs and innards, I was like.. this has got to be a specialized, slicked-up Win10, cuz otherwise that's just not enough machine. And lordy, overpriced for what's inside (and there's room for more, but it's not used). But business likes the convenience, and the size, and the support... and that's where all the real money is, not from us little users.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday January 24 2020, @08:12PM (1 child)
Still wanting a decent Linux tablet.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday January 24 2020, @09:19PM
Unfortunately not enough of a market for the big boys to pursue.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday January 28 2020, @03:17PM (1 child)
Looks like efforts are underway to get "real" Windows 10 ARM on Raspberry Pi 4B:
Windows 10 ARM on Raspberry Pi 4 is off to a good start [windowslatest.com]
But the real shock is that they are running it on the 1 GB version, as can be seen in this screenshot [windowslatest.com].
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday January 28 2020, @04:07PM
There exists a mod called "Windows 10 Lite" which uses about 1.1GB RAM, vs the 1.5GB used by default Win10, and this "Lite" was not notably absent of features. Not surprised that they've managed to shave off another couple hundred MB. Now I'm wondering just how low it could go.. .I vaguely recall someone managed to pare WinXP down to using a mere 8mb.)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday January 23 2020, @05:42AM
I've told this story before, but it's silly enough to tell again... Win2K required a Pentium and (IIRC) 64mb RAM. Well, that's what it said on the tin. I had a 486 DX4-100 with 8mb RAM that I used as a HD tester, and one day I hooked the wrong HD to it... and found myself watching Win2K boot up. Took about five minutes to reach the desktop, but after that was perfectly usable, and only a little sluggish (including Office2k). And that was with no swapfile. I was amazed.
I knew a programmer who ran Win95 on a 16MHz 386 with 16mb RAM. He said it took 15 minutes to boot up, but was tolerable after that. (Not my definition of 'tolerable'!!)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Thursday January 23 2020, @02:58AM (2 children)
Um... I put Win10 on a ten year old box (Phenom II x4, but runs about 30% slower than my nominally-slower Core2Duo, so really not a very good system) -- 8GB RAM, spinning rust HD. Runs perfectly fine. Doesn't chug the HD. Might be Update got stuck on yours and just never finished wiping its ass. Also sounds like it had some serious issue with the I/O drivers.
I can't stand Win10's interface, it will never be my everyday OS, but not because of poor performance.
Meanwhile, I recently saw a Catalina setup that used... are you sitting down?? 14GB RAM just to admire its navel. Holy crap.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Common Joe on Thursday January 23 2020, @03:44AM (1 child)
I bumped you up with a point simply because the stories I have are anecdotal and it's always good to hear another perspective.
I do have some experience with running a very small fleet of individual Win 10 laptops, but not ancient tech like the one I owned. They were modern and high powered. I don't know why you and I had different experiences. The Intel i3 processor was definitely not the problem, though. I watched the processor and it's was near idle most of the time. The I/O was through the roof, though.
Yeah. Win 10's interface does suck. It won't fix all your problems, but I suggest using the open shell menu [github.com]. It's brings sanity back to the start menu. Highly customizable. And instead of Windows Explorer, I also suggest FreeCommander [freecommander.com], although personally I use Double Commander [sourceforge.io]. Last I used it, FreeCommander is more stable and better suited for Windows, but it's a Windows only application. Double Commander is less stable, but since I use more than one OS, I can run it on both Windows and Linux. Both are feature rich and nearly have the same features.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday January 23 2020, @05:30AM
Returned the favor, good info. Does sound like problem with the I/O driver... long time since I've seen that, but that's exactly what it did, made the HD chug constantly to no effect even when the system was idle. Can also happen with the default network driver. Used to see that on IBM boxen -- without their right driver, it'd look like everything worked (no bang marks in Device Mangler) until you hooked one to a network, and brought the entire network to its knees. Was the most amazing thing.
Yeah, first thing I do with Win7 onward is install OpenShell, so I can stand 'em at all. I've used FreeCommander and DoubleCommander but have not found either to be 100% stable. Explorer++ has some good features but crashes enough that I've given up on it. Search is utterly broken in W7 onward; found some 3rd party util to replace that (don't have it up this instant, must copy to the other post-XP boxen when I remember which one it's on... you can tell I don't spend a lot of time slumming there). I live in the file manager, so having it so messed up is enough to run me off. Over time I could probably fix and block and beat the rest of Win10 into submission, but there's no making it not ugly. I don't require beauty on the desktop, but it's eye-searing brutalism.
I have... um, four different Win10 installs (original, some later version, whatever is most recent, and "Lite" which runs about 30% lighter but only worth bothering on a really cramped system -- 1GB idle instead of 1.5GB idle) ... they all perform well enough, but I still hate them all, and they only exist because Experimental and extra HDs and spare PCs with no real mission in life, so just in case. Hopefully I'll never get stuck using the damn thing for lack of choice. Win10 is what finally got me to trawl distros until I found a linux I can live with. Way to go, Microsoft... run off the users who used to actually LIKE Windows!!
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RamiK on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:50AM
If memory serves (point intended), the i.MX8M is limited to 4GB address space.
There's a node leap between LPDDR4 and LPDDR5 that costs billions in retooling that is causing shortages and over supplies as factories come on and offline.
compiling...
(Score: 4, Funny) by jb on Wednesday January 22 2020, @04:03AM (1 child)
Surely 640 KB should be enough for anyone?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday January 24 2020, @08:20PM
My Purism laptop has 16GB RAM.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Subsentient on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:25AM (5 children)
I never cared that much about proprietary firmware, as long as I can boot an arbitrary OS and my kernel can insert its throbbing cock into the BIOS' address space.
That said, there's far, FAR too much hardware that doesn't meet this basic requirement. Looking at you, smartphones....
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @05:41AM (4 children)
Even your throbbing open source cock can't get rid of Intel's Management Engine bare metal spyware.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @05:47AM (1 child)
Some people enjoy the bondage and open back door.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 23 2020, @02:37AM
This is like saying people in prison must endure anal penetration because they "asked for it" by committing a crime.
No user asks to be backdoored by Intel just because they purchased an Intel chip.
(Score: 3, Touché) by hendrikboom on Friday January 24 2020, @08:22PM (1 child)
No, but it appears to be possible to *disable* Intel's management engine. It's still there to initialize the hardware, but after that all its "management features" are shut down.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hendrikboom on Monday January 27 2020, @03:27AM
And disabling the management engine is what Purism does with the laptops it sells.
Rumour has it that the technique for doing so was found somewhere in Intel's database of published user hacks, and had been put there at the request of the NSA, which wasn't going to buy chips that could be hacked remotely.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DavePolaschek on Wednesday January 22 2020, @01:15PM (4 children)
I’ll be writing up a journal entry, but I bought a PineBook Pro to try and get a non-ChipZilla laptop (aiming to install OpenBSD on it). So far, my experience has been... mixed. It’s got a decent keyboard for a $250 computer. It feels more solid than equivalently priced ChromeBooks. BUT the default install on it is unable to connect via http to github. Or github-debug. Or openbsd.org. Or a handful of other useful sites. Works fine on google properties, though. And on my same network, my iPad can get to all those sites. Very puzzling, and I’m suspecting some weird ipv6 vs. Comcast conflict or something equally weird.
The major reason I need to get to github is that the keyboard / trackpad driver on the PineBook Pro has a bug which makes typing difficult, and the updater lives on github. No response from the Pine64 people, who have moved on and are busy flogging the PinePhone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @05:50PM (3 children)
I haven't had those problems at all (typing this on my Pinebook Pro). I got rid of the default debian and replaced it with Manjaro pretty quickly though. Check #ip a and see if you're not getting an IPv4 address? Try resetting your router in that case. Maybe it's the network you're using? I've seen cases of hotspots blocking OpenBSD.org and github both in particular.
(Score: 2) by DavePolaschek on Thursday January 23 2020, @12:23AM (2 children)
It’s my home network. The same sites work fine from my iPhone or iPad. Far as I can tell, I just got a turd.
I’ll install OprnBSD on it one of these days, but I can’t install Manjaro because I can’t get to THAT, either.
There’s better things to do with my time for now.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday January 24 2020, @08:25PM (1 child)
Perhaps someone could snail-mail you a USB stick or a CD/DVD with an installer?
(Score: 2) by DavePolaschek on Saturday January 25 2020, @12:37AM
Probably, but I can just download whatever I need on my RPi (on the same network) and transfer it around using my media server. At this point, I’m disgusted enough with the PineBook Pro that it’ll just sit in the corner for a while. We’re supposed to have beautiful weather this weekend too, so the sad computer can wait (at least) until it snows on Tuesday.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Rich on Wednesday January 22 2020, @01:23PM
The laptop reminds me a lot of my old PowerBook 150, which is still on standby as serial protocol terminal. It's all a bit "meh", including the need for extra silicon to work around a software blob for the SoC HDMI logic. However, if your spec sheet states "Hardware completely under own control, non-negotiable, at any cost", they are about the only game in town. One huge USP. With those cheap but RAM-starved SBCs, I'd try to tinker with a NUMA or cluster setup; bit of a challenge on the software side, though.
The thing I found most interesting was that they develop to "DIN SPEC 3105". I hadn't heard about it, it's a standard in progress that defines open hardware. Should be official soon. Although I suspect vested interests will force a last minute withdrawal, the cat is out of the bag anyway (one can always refer to the last "rfc"). So whenever someone wants to retain control about purchased goods in their procurement, they can simply add "according to DIN SPEC 3105" for deliverables, and they're set. No worries about different interpretations of what might be considered "open". :)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday January 22 2020, @03:39PM (4 children)
Secure boot. Only signed firmware, then bootloader can run. End user can control certificates used for verification.
Ability to have a firmware password required in order to boot. (Independent of any drive unlock password in the OS.)
Ability to lock out firmware changes without credentials / certificate. The point here is to guarantee that the machine is bricked if you want it bricked.
A USB kill-cord. If disconnected, (1) all sessions are logged out, and (2) OS is shut down. Item 1 is intended to ensure that nobody can get logged back in without credentials. Item 2 is to ensure that nobody can get the OS booted back up (presuming drive is encrypted and a different drive unlock password is needed). Enough failed attempts to unlock the drive should scramble critical parts of the drive (partition tables, key areas of filesystems, etc) so that even if drive could be decrypted it is useless. The previous two paragraphs ensure that nobody can install another OS, making the device useless.
One may argue that the device still was stolen, which was an economic loss. One very important way to prevent future thefts is if there is no economic value in stealing a laptop. Current laptops which still have economic value after theft are to blame for why laptops are valuable to steal. Think car radios that have little economic value once stolen. Or think prey animal that is poisonous. If you are poisonous doesn't prevent YOU from getting eaten, unfortunately. But does have a gradual effect on future predators who will stop eating poisonous laptops.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @04:18PM (1 child)
I presume this is your general security wishlist and not related to the hardware described in TFA?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 22 2020, @07:36PM
Yes. Everyone wishes they could enter three passwords to start working.
1. firmware / bios
2. os disk unlocking / decrypting
3. login
Now if you can think of a way that more passwords might be needed, I'm listening.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @06:56PM (1 child)
Even a bricked laptop has plenty of economic value to make it worth stealing. RAM, drives, screen, heck even ribbon cables, chassis and buttons. See what happens with smartphones, a quick check on ebay for "bad IMEI" or "locked" will show tons of results for any model imaginable. All bricking does is add to "e-waste".
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 22 2020, @07:34PM
So you're saying we need thermite, or something much worser?
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.