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posted by janrinok on Saturday February 08 2020, @01:37PM   Printer-friendly
from the happening-since-the-start-of-the-Cold-War dept.

Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:

The FBI director warns that Russian efforts to sow discord and political divide among Americans is continuing. The director of the FBI told lawmakers Wednesday that Russia is engaging in "information warfare" as the US heads into the 2020 presidential election. But he said there's no sign that Russia is targeting America's election infrastructure.

FBI Director Chris Wray told the House Judiciary Committee that Russia is waging a covert social media campaign to create a political divide and sow the seeds of discord among Americans, just as it did during the 2016 election, according to an Associated Press account of the hearing.

The effort, Wray said, involves fictional personas, bots, social media postings and disinformation. He said the threat was continuous and that was harder to combat than a hack on an election system.

"Unlike a cyberattack on an election infrastructure, that kind of effort -- disinformation -- in a world where we have a First Amendment and believe strongly in freedom of expression, the FBI is not going to be in the business of being the truth police and monitoring disinformation online," Wray said.

Disinformation has long been a part of Russia's foreign policy strategy, and social media has allowed the trolling effort to expand on a viral scale. US intelligence agencies have warned Congress that these campaigns will continue in future elections.

[...] "They identify an issue that they know that the American people feel passionately about on both sides and then they take both sides and spin them up so they pit us against each other," Wray said. "And then they combine that with an effort to weaken our confidence in our elections and our democratic institutions, which has been a pernicious and asymmetric way of engaging in ... information warfare."


Original Submission

Related Stories

Why Twitter’s Fact Check of Trump Might Not be Enough to Combat Misinformation 116 comments

FiveThirtyEight is covering the efficacy of fact-checking and other methods to combat the spread of misinformation and disinformation. Fact-checking, after the fact, is better than nothing, it turns out. There are some common factors in the times when it has been done successfully:

Political scientists Ethan Porter and Thomas J. Wood conducted an exhaustive battery of surveys on fact-checking, across more than 10,000 participants and 13 studies that covered a range of political, economic and scientific topics. They found that 60 percent of respondents gave accurate answers when presented with a correction, while just 32 percent of respondents who were not given a correction expressed accurate beliefs. That’s pretty solid proof that fact-checking can work.

But Porter and Wood have found, alongside many other fact-checking researchers, some methods of fact-checking are more effective than others. Broadly speaking, the most effective fact checks have this in common:

  1. They are from highly credible sources (with extra credit for those that are also surprising, like Republicans contradicting other Republicans or Democrats contradicting other Democrats).
  2. They offer a new frame for thinking about the issue (that is, they don’t simply dismiss a claim as “wrong” or “unsubstantiated”).
  3. They don’t directly challenge one’s worldview and identity.
  4. They happen early, before a false narrative gains traction.

It is as much about psychology as actually rebutting the disinformation because factors like partisanship and worldview have strong effects, and it is hard to reach people inside their social control media echo chambers from an accurate source they will accept.

[Though often incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain, one is reminded of the adage: “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”. --Ed.]

Previously:
(2020) Nearly Half of Twitter Accounts Pushing to Reopen America May be Bots
(2019) Russians Engaging in Ongoing 'Information Warfare,' FBI Director Says
(2019) How Fake News Spreads Like a Real Virus
(2019) More and More Countries are Mounting Disinformation Campaigns Online
(2019) At Defcon, Teaching Disinformation Campaigns Is Child's Play
(2018) Why You Stink at Fact-Checking
(2017) Americans Are “Under Siege” From Disinformation
(2015) Education Plus Ideology Exaggerates Rejection of Reality


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:21PM (20 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:21PM (#955652) Journal

    Hillary is doing enough of that herself: now that it looks like her bought man Biden is out and Bernie is in, she can't stop tearing Bernie down.

    She needs to realize SHE is why Trump won, but she doesn't care if Trump wins again so long as Bernie loses.

    She needs to STFU.

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:15PM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:15PM (#955672)

      While I fully agree, there's one thought experiment I often find myself reflecting on.

      Did Lincoln end slavery? Imagine Lincoln died a young child. Would history have turned out meaningfully differently? Might we still have slaves today? Perhaps 100 years ago? I find it difficult to argue anything other than 'no'. I don't think Lincoln was anything other than a product of a time and place that put a Lincoln in power. Furthermore I think this phenomena is something greater than democracy or conscious politics. What I mean is that I don't think "Lincoln", even if by another name, would have ended slavery because we reached a critical mass against slavery thus setting into action a chain of events. I think this is something about how all of society gradually shifted away from slavery meaning, even if we were under a dictatorship it's likely that slavery would have found its end sooner rather than later.

      So what does this have to do with Hillary? Society, for reasons that are always just going to come down to bias confirmation if we point fingers, has become incredibly divided, divisive, and intolerant of others' ideas. It has also become petulant, and narcissistic - probably a factor in driving the other changes. I'd also add in a large dose of sadism. I think so long as society remains in this state, we're destined (one might say doomed) to continue elevating similarly divisive figures to the top echelons of our political systems. So ultimately, obviously yes Hillary is a problem - but I think she is something that we have created.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:16PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:16PM (#955693)

        We might not have other things you might have taken for granted, like a United States united and strong enough to defeat the Soviets, Imperial Japan, and (along with others) the Nazis.

        Slavery as it existed in the 18th and 19th centuries was already in decline at the time of the Civil War, but suppose you replace Lincoln with someone who was not so dedicated to preserving the Union. The Confederacy secedes, the Civil War never happens, the weakened United States never expands to its present size, Mexico keeps California and the rest of its original territory. North America is divided into four countries, not three, all of roughly equal strength, except one of them still has slavery.

        World War 1 still happens normally, but either North America is involved in the same stagnant trench warfare as Europe, or else the United States isn't able to provide the same assistance. Fighting proceeds into the 1920s and while the end result is the same, military technology advances more quickly.

        The butterfly effect perturbs Hitler out of existence, or he dies in battle in WW1, but Germany still experiences similar economic and political problems that lead to the rise of a similar regime, except this time they have nuclear weapons ready to go. The Confederacy joins the Axis, and along with Nazi-like Germany and Imperial Japan - which probably wouldn't have been much different - forms a military alliance based on power and racial superiority. Nazi-ish Germans and Confederates still believe they're superior to Japanese, but accept Japanese superiority over the even more inferior remainder of Asia, as long as they stay on their side of the planet. Germany - this time the sole controller of nuclear weapons - uses them against the Soviets and the Chinese, but not against Britain or the United States, who are, after all, their racial cousins. But World War 2 proceeds quickly, lasting only a year, ending with nuclear devastation in Russia and China, and the defeat of the Allies. China, India, and Africa are completely subjugated, and the surviving Allied countries are controlled from Berlin by puppet governments. The United States is permitted to retain the Constitution, in much the same way that Japan was permitted to retain the Emperor, but it is interpreted to only apply to issues that are not of concern to the world regime.

        I suspect this world still has slavery in it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:31PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:31PM (#955698)

          Or perhaps better to say that Mexico recaptures, rather than retains, California in the territorial confusion following the Confederate secession.

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:38PM

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:38PM (#955787) Homepage

            And in that reality, California eventually becomes a dump with homeless everywhere and gang warfare in the streets.

            Oh, wait.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:10AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:10AM (#955877)

          Do you think that manual labor (slavery) would have survived the continuing industrial revolution with its mechanization? Do you think the cotton picker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_picker [wikipedia.org] would never have been invented? It is as foolish to think slavery would continue as to imagine we would still be using horses to pull the plow.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:41PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:41PM (#956027)

            Exactly this. There are writings on the topic of abolitionism dating back some 2,400 years. Lincoln didn't end slavery, neither did Jefferson (who first ended the slave trade). Technology, and technology alone ended slavery. See, for instance, the few remaining countries where slavery persists in various forms even when officially abolished. It's invariably nations with limited technological capability.

        • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Sunday February 09 2020, @09:55AM (1 child)

          by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday February 09 2020, @09:55AM (#955977) Journal

          It's interesting to play dominoes with history to investigate ourselves. Kudos to both parent and grandparent in this thread. Both comments are very thought provoking. Thank you.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:02PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:02PM (#956022)

            Interesting thought experiment indeed, with the conclusion that sometimes leaders matter.

            Historically, good leaders were able to get folks to work together to make a better world.

            The current state of discourse in the US seems to lean to preventing folks from working together.

            If this is a Russian plot, then it seems to be working.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:00PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:00PM (#955763)

        Did Lincoln "free the slaves" as an economic weapon against the south?

        Not sure one could ever know, but the "follow the money" analysis most often
        leads to consistent results.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:49AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:49AM (#955856)

        Did Lincoln end slavery?

        No. If you're convicted of a crime, slavery is still allowed according to the Constitution.

    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by fustakrakich on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:53PM (8 children)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:53PM (#955682) Journal

      She needs to STFU.

      She can't, the Party needs her services. The voters have to learn to tune out their bullshit.

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:38PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:38PM (#955721)

        :-) Does the democrat who modded that wish to explain why it is offtopic? Or is it just a primal reaction, a reflex?

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:02PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:02PM (#955731)

          If you'll pay attention you'll notice that offtopic and flamebait mods have become so common as to not mean anything anymore. It is a bipartisan problem.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:30PM

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:30PM (#955778) Homepage

            We should strive for more positivity and mod up rather than down.

            Which is why I mod troll comments "Informative."

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by Gaaark on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:06AM

            by Gaaark (41) on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:06AM (#955893) Journal

            Off-topic is Trump.
            Flamebait is Hillary.
            :)

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:12PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:12PM (#956089)

            It is a bipartisan problem.

            No, the bullshit modding here is all democrats. They really don't like free speech, or anything else they can't control. They are easily frustrated, then they lash out. This is not the kind of thing you want piloting your spaceship. They are not the people I want to replace Trump. They are every bit as vengeful and dangerous to the republic. If you want to drain the swamp you have to start at the beginning.

        • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @09:53PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @09:53PM (#955809)

          This is a private message, public disclosure will be penalized to the maximum extent permitted by law

          It is offtopic because you are not allowed to discuss the DNC's engagement in information warfare without first clearing it with the authorities. I'm sure you understand, and will assist us in everybody's compliance with the rules

          Thank you

        • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @06:19AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @06:19AM (#955933)

          More down mods! Democrats are so fascist! Worse than republicans!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:56PM (#956081)

            Troll

            Case in point! Only the democrats are doing this. Fascism is marching double time! It's a dirty rotten shame that Trump is the only thing that will beat them! Then we get his fascism! Obvious the voters like fascism! They keep voting for fascists! And they are trying to censor unbiased observation!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:20PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:20PM (#956047)

      Good. Now do Trump and Putin. I guarantee you it is an easier link to prove.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:36PM (28 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:36PM (#955656)

    The news is presented in a way as if it's covering some far off topic nobody has any way of personally vetting. For instance, Syria. But things like "covert social media campaigns" that are "expanding on a viral scale" does not even make any sense. The whole notion is oxymoronic. In order for any social campaign, let alone a viral one, to reach people it has to be the exact opposite covert. If you're confident enough to spread FUD among Americans, why not name names? What, exactly, are they saying that is false?

    It feels like the political establishment *really* wants a new Red Scare (it's awesome for military spending as well as privacy invading legislation) and is becoming increasingly desperate to push it before November. Presumably this year's October Surprise will be more creative, and xenophobic, than some locker room shit talk.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Coward, Anonymous on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:56PM (5 children)

      by Coward, Anonymous (7017) on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:56PM (#955664) Journal

      Yeah, show us the evidence and give us real numbers. Do Facebook and Google agree? Why can't we have examples of these dangerous information warfare posts, so we can be on the lookout?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:32PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:32PM (#955719)

        Look around you.

        • (Score: 2) by Coward, Anonymous on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:55PM (1 child)

          by Coward, Anonymous (7017) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:55PM (#955793) Journal

          Even better, I look in the mirror. I've been mislabeled a Russian internet troll (not on SN).

        • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Saturday February 08 2020, @09:18PM (1 child)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Saturday February 08 2020, @09:18PM (#955798) Journal

          Look around you.

          That's only sufficient to identify posts that seem wrongheaded; it doesn't mean they're state-sponsored information warfare.

          Personally, rather than seeing post X removed (or ignored), I'd like to see a reply from the FBI or CIA or etc. that clearly indicates the post came from a state-sponsored troll farm.

          Otherwise, it could just as easily be a US citizen expressing their opinion, regardless of how poorly informed, misleading, or outright dishonest it might be. We certainly have plenty of that going on.

          --
          Ignorance is weakness.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:56PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:56PM (#955684) Journal

      It feels like the political establishment *really* wants a new Red Scare

      Another 9/11 will do the trick. Watch for it..

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:02PM (12 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:02PM (#955689) Journal

      Democrats want the New Red Scare.

      Democrats are the new authoritarians.

      All my life I identified as Democrat but what I think I actually was, was anti-authoritarian (plus anti-wars-of-aggression and pro-common-people). Democrats have betrayed everything their propaganda suggested they were about and so while I don't love Republicans, I __hate__ these backstabbing walking pieces of garbage, AKA, DNC.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:06PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:06PM (#955733)

        LoL

        Then you're not paying the slightest bit of attention. I'll take backstabbers over spineless cowards who back down from a turd like Trump. At least backstabbers are more likely to keep each other in check, the GOP is enabling the literal next Hitler and you're still playing this stupid "but dems sre worse!" game which is provably false.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:33AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:33AM (#955868)

          He's not the next Hitler, he doesn't even speak German.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Sunday February 09 2020, @07:57AM (1 child)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @07:57AM (#955953) Journal

            He doesn't even speak English! Covfefe to you all, I'm moving to either Button or Nipple!

            And for those of you who have missed a recent faux pas by Trump, Button and Nipple was how he pronounced Bhutan and Nepal to the world's media.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:56PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:56PM (#956034)

              A wild aside but it's mildly amusing to consider that this is exactly how most nations end up getting the pronunciation of other nations. For instance in English, Nippon ended up being heard as Japan. A fun one is in Thai foreigners, particularly white ones, are called Farang. Who were the first white people the Thais bumped into? The French, where France is called 'Fah-ron-say' => Farang. In Russian they did away with even bother to try with Germans. They're called the nyay-myet-skey (no clue how to properly latinize that word). Anyhow, it's derived from ney-moy which translates to something like dumb/speechless/inarticulate.

              So screw it, Button and Nipple it is. Anyhow wouldn't it be like cultural appropriation or something if we took their proper names? :)

        • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:31PM (3 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:31PM (#956015) Journal

          the literal next Hitler

          If you have a point, it's lost in transmission.

          When our children are born, we can't wait to hear their first words. Then, their first babbling attempts at sentences. The baby talk is cute, for as much as three or four years. Then, we hope that children start to learn more and more complex sentences.

          It's past time for the "literal Hitler" baby talk to be shelved, Baby. Grow up a little, and try to express your thoughts more clearly - and we promise not to laugh so hard at you.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:02PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:02PM (#956060)

            It may have been lost on you but the implications are not lost on others.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:11PM (1 child)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:11PM (#956064) Journal

              What you mean is, babies babbling at each other is meaningful to the babies. I wasn't aware that babies can do dogwhistling and gaslighting, but apparently, you claim that ability for yourself.

              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:23PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:23PM (#956068)

                You're losing your mind Herr Goebbels.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by shortscreen on Saturday February 08 2020, @07:56PM (1 child)

        by shortscreen (2252) on Saturday February 08 2020, @07:56PM (#955762) Journal

        I think it's mainly the spies, the MIC, and fossil fuel interests that are behind the Russophobia campaign. Dems in general are just going along with it out of political convenience and intellectual laziness. Despite the woke rhetoric, tribalism is still human nature.

        One can only hope that more people begin to notice that the party leadership are lying shitbags though. They rigged the '16 primary with no remorse and got away with it. Will they get away with it again? For that matter, will the 28%+ of independent voters ever be allowed to have a candidate in a nationally televised debate?

        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:35PM

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:35PM (#955783) Homepage

          Writing somebody in is a good way to still vote while flipping the bird to the political establishment.

          And if an organized campaign to write one or more people in catches wind, even a gag candidate like fucking Pikachu, that candidate may not win but people will take notice. The Jews could even make a decent made-for-TV-movie based on the story.

          Here we don't just vote for president, we also vote for a bunch of other more local shit on that same ballot. There's no excuse in this state for sitting at home out of anger on election day.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:04PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:04PM (#955765)

        Democrook or Republocook -- not much difference except in some small details.

        How about getting a viable third party going? Hasn't happened before, but is there
        any other choice?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:35PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:35PM (#956016) Journal

          You may not be as aware as you think you are. Libertarians, Greenies, and even Independent candidates have proven "viable" in elections around the nation. Yes, there really are viable alternatives. Maybe you could do something like getting involved, and persuading other people to vote for viable candidates who are not D or R?

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:15PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:15PM (#955714)

      things like "covert social media campaigns" that are "expanding on a viral scale" does not even make any sense. The whole notion is oxymoronic. In order for any social campaign, let alone a viral one, to reach people it has to be the exact opposite covert.

      No it doesn't. Messages (just like yours) can be posted anonymously, pseudanonymously or from twitter bot accounts. Trying to prove an account is of some PSYOP is nigh impossible. It's guess work.
      What isn't guess work is that getting some grey propaganda trending on twitblerbook is laughably easy, especially if you start catering to already highly polarized crowds of 'political opponents': they spread it for you.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:12PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:12PM (#955770)

        Trying to prove an account is a psyop is impossible? Then why exactly are we spreading FUD like it's 1949? Fear, uncertainty, doubt if you're not familiar with the acronym - it's a propaganda technique. Funny, eh? Not really. This all just so absurd. Our political establishment is trying to drag us into a new cold war, and people are marching along without ever bothering to think about anything that's said. For instance, this is a quote from Clinton, that now most of all of America has become familiar with directly or indirectly:

        "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up."

        What exactly is Russia supposed to be doing? I mean if their goal is to "create a political divide and sow the seeds of discord among Americans" then they need to grab a queue number. Look at the front page of any media today. Even things like the New York Times, which used to be a reputable paper, has just turned into a partisan rag that's doing little more than sowing division and discord in society. They're trying to "weaken our confidence in our elections and our democratic institutions"? Again, how in the world are they going to do a better job of that than the DNC just did in Ohio?

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Increasingly we're making ever more extraordinary claims, once that each individual could verify for themselves in theory, yet they can't - because those extraordinary claims come with exactly 0 evidence. None of this makes any sense whatsoever.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @10:07PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @10:07PM (#955811)

          Ha, so you're either another Russian troll or you haven't been paying attention. Not that I would have liked HRC in the WH, and the bipartisan corruption has finally woken people up, but Trump tanked the US reputation and has caused massive economic and environmental harm.

          Russia wanted all of that, and whether or not you blame them for acting in their own best interests the fact is that any US citizen should be pissed off about it.

          Personally I'm tired of this little nihilist game you people play.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:59PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:59PM (#956035)

            So if I have been paying attention, the only possible way I might disagree with notions such as "Trump has caused massive economic harm", is if I'm a Russian troll? You see, this is why I think the FUD we're spreading is dangerous.

            Try, for a minute, to put aside your preconceptions and see yourself how somebody who does not hold your view system might try to see? Can you see how you might seem a bit eccentric, to put it one way?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:05PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:05PM (#956061)

              You're not a soybean farmer are you?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 10 2020, @03:05AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 10 2020, @03:05AM (#956242)

            Very funny!

            You're such a perfect little DNC mouthpiece!

    • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:24PM

      by captain normal (2205) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:24PM (#955776)

      Humm...seems to me that only a Russian troll/bot and their sock-puppet S/N accounts would fail to notice the difference between the words "smell" and "small". Like Queen Gertrude, many posters here seem to "protest too much".

      --
      When life isn't going right, go left.
    • (Score: 2) by dak664 on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:53PM

      by dak664 (2433) on Sunday February 09 2020, @02:53PM (#956033)

      Don't know when it started, but Youtube now has disclaimers below state-sponsored videos. For Russia Times it is "RT is funded in full or in part by the Russian government". BBC and PBS get the "public broadcast service" designation. CIA and FBI channels have no disclaimer...

  • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:44PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:44PM (#955658)

    While they both have the same behavior and political goals, you can tell Russians apart from Democrats by their fur hats.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:03PM

      by hemocyanin (186) on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:03PM (#955690) Journal

      No no no -- you can tell Democrats from Russians by how well they interfere with elections. Russians would wet their pants to be as effective as the DNC -- reference Iowa. Democrats couldn't get through one fucking primary without fingering the scale.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by fustakrakich on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:05PM (1 child)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:05PM (#955691) Journal

      The democrats share the same MO as Germany [bbc.com] to keep liberalism out of the government.

      And their "mod" squad is out to get you...

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:30PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:30PM (#955779)

        Troll

        The DNC mod squad is on the warpath! They're after all of us! Quick! Get the wagons into a circle!

  • (Score: 2) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:47PM (8 children)

    by jmichaelhudsondotnet (8122) on Saturday February 08 2020, @02:47PM (#955659) Journal

    "Everyone is doing what we are doing but they are bad, very bad boys!"

    Does anyone think it is a good use for uniformed soldiers to be at eglin airforce base trollin the libs and socket puppet battling on reddit operating r/conspiracy?

    I don't. That is not what the word soldier means.

    That is also not what information means, knowledge is not a weapon like a knife. I can't make you read books to death, I can't shout at you like paul atreides(yet) so you are hurt.

    Information Warfare = Arguing

    End of story. They are turning all civil culture into a battleground if they haven't succeeded already. You cannot have civilian government without an open forum of ideas, at all. If no open forum, there is no civilian governance.

    Totalitarianism is military dictatorship forever, the absence of civilian governance. This is not an accident.

    https://archive.is/kJKap [archive.is] cnbc fail
    https://archive.is/blM4a [archive.is] robach fail
    https://archive.is/iOckl [archive.is] eglin afb
    https://archive.ph/EdHYz [archive.ph] jtrig
    https://archive.is/rWnr8 [archive.is] forums like this front lines
    https://archive.is/osDks [archive.is] how to detect their websites...

    https://archive.is/FRGCj [archive.is] what the entire information war is actually doing is protecting a history of lies, the lies you have to prove you can believe in order to be granted power in the totalitarian system. As defined in 1984, the cynacism required to believe literally nothing, and every lie, and be relativistic about everything, is the entry ticket to all of the good things in life. The left side of this equation is waging a war of long term attrition against everyone on the right side, and in the end, all human history may be eventually rewritten.

    The "information war", is just the facemask of the Uniform Degenerative Force, Dark Psychic Energy, Anti-Movement Policing, and Anti-humanism, of the oligarchy against everyone else, and at this point any of these competing totalitarian systems would have a near impossible time distinguishing itself from any other, or justifying their actions in any non-relativistic sense.

    We are being pressured to forget everything we know and to stop trying to know, and accept atrocity as normal and necessary.

    And it so very well mirrors what I would expect from the future after losing a game of XCOM 2, which is the worst possible evaluation for human leadership in human society, that your work resembles an alien takeover bent on human enslavement and eventual extinction.

    thesesystemsarefailing.net but the fish is rotting from the head down so you might want to consider that in your operational plan next time you get your orders to do something insane against humanity, so you might want to consider,
    decultification.org if you are looking for alternative ideas.
    And you should consider my expanded definitions page if you would like to see an attempt to rebuild the english language from the malignant pile of gooey cruft treacherous mass media institutions have dumped into your neocortex

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:02PM (6 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:02PM (#955667) Journal

      knowledge is not a weapon like a knife

      Bullshit.

      The one indispensable weapon that any soldier possesses, is his mind. I know that so many of you work hard to portray soldiers as some kind of brainwashed slaves. But, brainwashed slaves don't win battles, or wars. Janissaries and Immortals didn't preserve their ruler's empires, did they? Nope.

      Knowledge is power. Always has been, always will be.

      • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:53PM

        by legont (4179) on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:53PM (#955728)

        Yes, exactly.
        Whoever has the most secrets will fail.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @07:35PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @07:35PM (#955758)

        Knowledge is power. Always has been, always will be.

        This from the demonstrably most ignorant and uneducated Soylentil? Funny!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:11PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:11PM (#955768)

        I think at least a certain amount of brainwashing would be required to get someone to go
        to Iraq in 2003 when the amount of doubt about the WMD's was becoming pretty well known.

        Maybe not a complete takeover of a mind, but at least having a soldier believing the
        govt/military story, without looking at the data.

      • (Score: 2) by Lester on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:35PM (2 children)

        by Lester (6231) on Saturday February 08 2020, @08:35PM (#955784) Journal

        Brainwashed generals don't win battles, but brainwashed soldiers do win battles.

        Once a general told me "to get a man attack gun-machine it must be intoxicate, of alcohol, or discipline, or patriotism". Wars nowadays are not like that, they look more like a video game, than a real war. But in the ground they are as dirty and as cruel as always. A soldier is human that has overcome important instincts, survival instinct and empathy to other human instinct. And the only way to get that is by brainwashing.

        The more brainwashed the bottom level soldiers is, the better. A robot is the perfect soldier. And they are working on it [youtube.com].

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @12:30AM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @12:30AM (#955838) Journal

          In the 1940's, Russia faced an existential threat. Not only as a nation, but as a people. The invaders had no clear goals, it was just kill, kill, kill, pause for some raping and pillaging, then kill some more. Men, women, and even children went into the inferno, almost willingly, to defend their homes, their families, their way of life, their heritage.

          Would you call that brainwashing?

          I'm glad that you noted, there might be levels, or degrees of brainwashing. I can probably go along with that. Of course, we have witnessed the brainwashing that goes on in our public schools systems. You've given me some food for thought, at the least.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @06:15AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @06:15AM (#955932)

            to defend their homes, their families, their way of life, their heritage.
            Would you call that brainwashing?

            Their families? No. Their homes? Yes; dying to save a house is stupid, brainwashed to value an inert shape of stone, wood and metal over life. Their way of life, their heritage? Uh, YES dying for that is brainwashed? GP said "intoxicated by... patriotism" and 'our way of life, our heritage' is almost word for word a Nazi slogan, too, not just among the reasons the Russians fought.

            How many times would I want to die to preserve the part of my way of life which includes, say, US pop culture? Appx 0 times. That way of life, that contemporary cultural heritage, is not one I've been brainwashed to love more than my preservation instinct.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday February 09 2020, @11:04PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @11:04PM (#956193) Journal

      Does anyone think it is a good use for uniformed soldiers to be at eglin airforce base trollin the libs and socket puppet battling on reddit operating r/conspiracy?

      Beats killing people and blowing up stuff people need, amirite?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:06PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:06PM (#955668)

    Evil Bolshevik Russia USA where children are controlled by state and homosexuals are roaming the streets.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Mojibake Tengu on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:12PM

    by Mojibake Tengu (8598) on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:12PM (#955671) Journal

    The core problem of United States politics is not the external interference. It is the most powerful empire on this planet, after all, while presided by the least powerful leader in its history at the same time.

    The key problem is the incoherent structure of its internal mechanics, political processes driven by forces generated by divergent interests of particular factions and local domains.

    That's a simple and objective fact and as such, cannot be washed out or painted over by just some funky media drill.
    This inner divergence is what will ruin all the construction, similar to how a fragile machine with too powerful engine destroys itself just by normal operations.

    It happened before to all empires who stepped over the certain treshold of absolute political power. It's inevitable.

    --
    Respect Authorities. Know your social status. Woke responsibly.
  • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:41PM (2 children)

    by Bot (3902) on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:41PM (#955676) Journal

    has been going on since 1918...

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:47PM (1 child)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:47PM (#955724) Journal

      The process started with the Big Bang

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @11:37PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @11:37PM (#955832)

        That unfunny sitcom featuring mental illness and hackneyed Indian, Texan and Jewish stereotypes?

        Yeah, I blame the ruskies.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @03:45PM (#955678)

    *sigh* The DNC/GOP bullshit never ends...

    Sowing discord is easy with the primitives who believe anything the alpha tells them.

    If we don't vote these people out we are doomed!

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:18PM (1 child)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 08 2020, @04:18PM (#955694) Journal

    Who are the most proficient propagandists in the world today?

    Of course, Russia is doing propaganda. But, are they the best? Who is? And, who is in second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth places? The FBI ranks somewhere in there, all on it's own, without the aid of all the other USA alphabet groups.

    We should start an agitprop corporation. There's a really great market in agitprop these days.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:11PM (#955735)

      Behold, the Republican brain trying to parse reality and make excuses for its previous denials! A marvel of mental gymnastics, truly the Gold Medalist of Boomers.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:07PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:07PM (#955713)
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:24PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @05:24PM (#955717)

      Hey, it's not March yet! They fired their information torpedo too soon!

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:25PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:25PM (#955742)

    There will come a time when "the Russians made me do it" will not be a valid excuse. The world already knows who is tearing America apart. Hopefully the American people will look in a mirror and figure it out. Or not. Just as good if they keep their special kind of crazy to themselves and keep their noses out of other countries business.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:25PM (1 child)

    by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 08 2020, @06:25PM (#955743) Journal

    The thing is, they aren't the only ones. And it's not just state actors. This is just astroturfing writ large.

    Of course, they aren't just astroturfing. They're also phishing with political rather than economic goals. (Companies would *never* do that! Neither would political parties. Or political campaigns.)

    P.S.: Do you think the US govt. isn't doing the same thing? Why do you think so? What about Britain? The EU? China? I don't really think Nigeria is a big player, though.

    --
    Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @12:35AM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @12:35AM (#955840) Journal

      Well, I don't think Bermuda does it. Not that anyone would notice, anyway. And, maybe New Zealand?

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:51AM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:51AM (#955857)

    That way he can take back all of the U.S.S.R. without interference. Make no mistake, Russia is the enemy of the United States and all political parties in the U.S. should agree on that completely.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:39PM (7 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @01:39PM (#956017) Journal

      Citations needed.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:37PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:37PM (#956053)

        Really?
        https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/are-u-s-and-russia-in-a-new-cold-war/ [brookings.edu]
        https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/jim-sciutto-kremlin-waging-new-kind-war/589387/ [theatlantic.com]
        https://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2017/03/28/is_russia_americas_enemy_112267.html [realclearworld.com] (an interesting take positing that Russia isn't 'enemy' so much as 'rival')
        The United States Army's take on it: https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/July-August-2019/Finch-Russian-media/ [army.mil]

        But if you want to figure it out for yourself there is a process you may follow:
        What are the values of the United States? (Both what we actually do and what we want the United States to be or be perceived as.)
        What are the values of the Russian Federation? (NOT 'Russia'.) (Both what they espouse and what they have done and you had better look closely at Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria as part of that analysis).
        Are those values complimentary or in conflict?
        And finally.... has Russia engaged in attempts to subvert the United States - overtly and covertly - to better align with its values? (And does the United States try to do the same - overtly and covertly - with the Russian Federation?)

        Me, when I look at those questions I would say unequivocally that Russian Federation is not a friend of the United States and should not be seen as an ally. (Which doesn't mean that there aren't friendly Russians or that the Russian Federation and the United States cannot find ways to cooperate concerning things in which we do have mutual interest and can take complementary action....)

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:40PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @03:40PM (#956055)

          By the way.… that doesn't mean that Vladmir Putin's personal values, outlook, and desire of how he wants to be a leader are not shared by Donald Trump. IMO Donald Trump would absolutely love to have the Russian political system be enacted in America so long as he's on top of it. He's certainly willing to launch politically based career pogroms, isn't he? Makes me wonder what he'd do if he had the power to "disappear" his political enemies.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:07PM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @04:07PM (#956062) Journal

            Sometimes, I wonder if posters to SN are living in alternative dimensions, living alternate histories.

            Russia was not the "enemy of the United States" until the United States started diddling Russia and her neighbors. Do Ukraine and Georgia ring any bells? If there's a "cold war" or any other type of war, WE STARTED IT!! In effect, we allowed the Koch brothers to bombard a near neighbor (Ukraine) with 14 billion dollars worth of economic munitions. They toppled the ligitimate government, and installed a fascist government in it's place, RIGHT ON RUSSIA'S BORDERS!!

            Remember that Russia fought an existential threat only a couple generations ago. That war was fought against fascists, Nazis, and skinhead variants - from whom today's neonazis and skinheads are descended.

            With that in mind, put yourself in Russia's position.

            It would be far more accurate to say that the Democratic party, and the United States are the enemies of Russia. Russia didn't come to Alaska, and piss in our drinking water. Instead, we went to Ukraine, and shit all over the living room, and the drinking water.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:28PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:28PM (#956093)

              Maybe you are a Russian troll, or just insomnia?

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:35PM (2 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 09 2020, @05:35PM (#956094) Journal

                I am the voice in the wilderness. Many of you are hopelessly lost, but if you listen to me, you may be a lot less lost.

                Let's try this: Who stands to gain from any conflict with Russia? The military industrial complex, of course. They win via proxy war, direct war, threat of war, imaginary war, cold war, hot war - war is profitable.

                Eisenhower told us to beware the MIC - and here, the D's are actively promoting conflict with Russia, because PROFIT!!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 10 2020, @06:32PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 10 2020, @06:32PM (#956442)

                  I am the voice in the wilderness. Many of you are hopelessly lost, but if you listen to me, you may be a lot less lost.

                  Do you even read what you write? Your view on reality is tenuous at best. Also, beckoning people to join you in the woods and just follow your orders is creepy as fuck. Starting to make sense why you love Trump so much, even as the logical portion of your brain says "look at the evidence, he is a shit for brains dumbass".

                  As usual it would be amusing if it wasn't destroying the ideals of American freedom.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 10 2020, @10:50PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 10 2020, @10:50PM (#956574) Journal

                    is creepy as fuck.

                    You're thinking of Creepy Joe, the Democratic presidential hopeful.

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