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posted by Fnord666 on Monday April 13 2020, @04:04PM   Printer-friendly
from the cheaper-by-the-dozen dept.

Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:

The head of Russia's space agency on Saturday accused Elon Musk's SpaceX of predatory pricing for space launches, which is pushing Russia to cut its own prices. "Instead of honest competition on the market for space launches, they are lobbying for sanctions against us and use price dumping with impunity," Roscosmos chief Dmitry Rogozin wrote on Twitter.

Rogozin, who is often outspoken on Twitter and previously engaged in online banter with Elon Musk, on Friday raised the issue during a meeting with President Vladimir Putin.

He said the Roscosmos space agency "is working to lower prices by more than 30 percent on launch services to increase our share on the international markets." "This is our answer to dumping by American companies financed by the US budget," he said. The market price of a SpaceX launch is $60 million, but NASA pays up to four times that amount, he said.

Musk responded to the criticism Saturday by saying on Twitter: "SpaceX rockets are 80% reusable, theirs are 0%. This is the actual problem."


Original Submission

Related Stories

Russia's Space Leader Blusters About Mars in the Face of Stiff Budget Cuts 24 comments

Russia's space leader blusters about Mars in the face of stiff budget cuts

The leader of Russia's civil space program appears to be increasingly disengaged from reality. In recent months Dmitry Rogozin, the chief of Roscosmos, has given a series of interviews in which he has made all manner of big promises about the supposedly bright future of Russia's space program.

For example, in an interview published just today, Rogozin made the fantastical claim that his country's space program has the technical means to reach Mars and land cosmonauts there within eight to 10 years. If Russia is ready to finance such a plan, Rogozin guaranteed that Roscosmos stands ready to deliver.

Russia, Rogozin also recently said, is ready to do reuse better than SpaceX and the United States. SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket, he said, is only "semi-reusable," and Russia aspires to build a 21st-century rocket capable of 100 flights. He then reiterated that Russia would like to develop a version of its Soyuz rocket that has a methane-fueled engine.

SpaceX has flown its Falcon 9 first-stage rockets five times, and it plans to push toward reusing each booster 10 times. It is not clear what, if any, steps Russia has taken toward reuse. The reality is that Russia depends on reliable but decades-old technology to get into space. And while Rogozin talks a good game about sending his cosmonauts to the Moon or to Mars, and about competing with SpaceX on reusable rockets, this appears to be mostly bluster.

If you are still under any illusions about the state of Russia's space program, now is the time to dispel them.

Previously: Russian Space Agency Abolished and Replaced Following Financial Violations
Price War Between SpaceX and Russia
Russian Rocket Builder May Have Replaced Special Alloys With Cheap Metals
NASA and Roscosmos Release Joint Statement on ISS Leak Amid Rumors
Head of Russian Space Agency Roscosmos Wavers on Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway
Russia Space Chief Spars with Elon Musk Over Launch Pricing


Original Submission

Roscosmos Chief Blasts U.S. Sanctions 16 comments

Russia's space chief is hopping mad over most recent US restrictions

On Monday the US Commerce Department released a list of Chinese and Russian companies that it says have military ties. The list designates 58 Chinese and 43 Russian companies as "military end users" and requires exporters to obtain a license before selling them products. Such licenses are unlikely to be issued.

[...] The list includes several space companies in China and Russia, including the Progress Rocket Space Center in Samara, Russia. This company develops and manufactures the Soyuz rockets that have carried Russian and US astronauts to the International Space Station for the last decade after the US space shuttle retired.

The inclusion of the Soyuz manufacturer drew a swift rebuke from Dmitry Rogozin, the leader of Russia's space corporation, Roscosmos, on Tuesday. In his heated statement, Rogozin said the restrictions were "illegal," and he characterized them as "stupid."

"This Samara enterprise manufactures the legendary Soyuz-2 launch vehicles, with the help of which the Soyuz MS spacecraft has been taking American astronauts to the ISS for 10 years already," he said. "Now, it turns out that our American colleagues have their 'trampoline working' again, and the first thing they did is spit into the Samara well. Isn't it too early, colleagues, in case your 'trampoline' breaks again suddenly and you will have to satisfy your passion for space from our well again?"

Earlier, Rogozin had demonstrated yet again that SpaceX is on his mind:

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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday April 13 2020, @04:26PM (31 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @04:26PM (#982050) Journal

    That one was hilarious, really. Our nitwits put all their faith in that stupid space plane, and ultimately it proved an expensive failure. Jump up there on that trampoline, and hurl your ass at the ISS!

    Elon Musk is an arrogant prick, but I like the arrogant prick, because he is making stuff happen. Stuff that should have happened at least 30 years ago.

    I do believe that most of the others competing against him are just tagalongs. They're afraid Musk will succeed while they stood around, so they want to be sure that they are "in the race". Miles behind, but still, "in the race". If they don't run the race, they can't capitalize on anything, in any way. Coming in a distant second will mean something, in the long run, I guess. A more distant third will still leave someone in a position to make use of what they learn.

    --
    We've finally beat Medicare! - Houseplant in Chief
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (29 children)

      by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (#982057)

      The point still stands - the only reason Musk is ahead as a business is the illegal help of the US government. WTO can't be asked for help either, because the US refuses to appoint judges. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwjG4vab6uXoAhUyh-AKHQW8BikQFjACegQIDBAG&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.com%2Fen%2Fwto-judge-blockage-could-prove-the-beginning-of-the-end%2Fa-51613082&usg=AOvVaw1lUPmcuu_4oQYCSeyOHbz_ [google.com]

      It's all out cold war everywhere and Russia is a relatively small participant. Brace for all out Chinese attack. It's already in progress.

      --
      "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday April 13 2020, @04:50PM (12 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @04:50PM (#982071) Journal

        OK, maybe you're right. But - please, point out the space-going concern that is NOT subsidized by government. Surely, you don't think that Roscosmos doesn't get any subsidies? Israel, India, China, Russia, United Kingdom, Iran - just run down the list of all nations that have put anything into orbit, and point out the one that wasn't subsidized. You can't do it.

        --
        We've finally beat Medicare! - Houseplant in Chief
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @05:11PM (11 children)

          by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @05:11PM (#982080)

          I believe that everything capitalists was initially subsidized and free market is a horse shit designed to slow down less developed competitors.
          Free markets, like freedom and education, is a luxury that only very rich can afford. New players have to use unfair practices. Places that want "to become great again" are on the same boat as banana republics and Trump, as well as Musk, very much understand it and play dirty all the time intentionally.
          I am actually all for this. I just don't like moral edge that some folks like so much. Why? because it blinds one and makes him do bad financial decisions. Propaganda is for slaves.

          --
          "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @05:55PM (4 children)

            by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @05:55PM (#982106) Journal

            The Russian space program would have collapsed if America hadn't invited Russia to join the ISS.

            The Chill of U.S.-Russia Relations Creeps Into Space [theatlantic.com]

            Only after the dissolution of the Soviet Union did the most significant partnerships begin to take shape. In the early 1990s, the United States sought to build an international space station and invited Russia to join, along with Japan, Canada, and nine European nations. It was a self-serving decision; while showing support for a country in crisis, the United States would also gain access to impressive space technology, reduce costs, and employ former Soviet scientists and engineers who might otherwise work for enemy governments. That politically motivated choice, though, has led to decades of productive collaboration. Today the International Space Station has been continuously occupied, by rotating crews from both nations, for 18 years.

            ISS gave their engineers something to do other than build weapons for North Korea or whoever could flash the cash.

            It would have collapsed more recently if we hadn't kept buying overpriced Soyuz seats.

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
            • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @06:24PM (3 children)

              by Sulla (5173) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:24PM (#982126) Journal

              So what the Russians are really pissed about is that we are propping Musk's space ambitions up instead of propping up Russia's.

              --
              Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
              • (Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @07:19PM

                by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @07:19PM (#982158) Journal

                They are pissed that they have agile competition and that a lucrative money maker is about to dry up.

                It's not just SpaceX. They will also have to contend with China and India, at a minimum.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Programme [wikipedia.org]

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                [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
              • (Score: 3, Disagree) by barbara hudson on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:29AM (1 child)

                by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:29AM (#982367) Journal

                Russia is less and less relevant, so not as much need to prop them up economically with seat purchases on Soyuz, and not as much need to keep up a pretence of international cooperation.

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                SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
                • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:03PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:03PM (#982773)

                  See subject & a NICE DOSE of PUBLIC HUMILIATION for your own local FREAK barbara hudson folks: I "apologized" to you TRANNY twisto https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?cid=937346&sid=35327 [soylentnews.org] ? FUCK NO, not ever: That's NOT me but I DESTROYED YOU PUBLICLY on every level including proving you barb stalk me on THIS SITE https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889582#commentwrap [soylentnews.org] with more proof QUOTED FROM YOU DIRECTLY barbara (tom) hudson proving are a technical incompetent brain-damaged transsexual fool BULLSHIT ARTIST FUCKUP worthless creep that also failed on tech vs. me.

                  My post LITERALLY also shows links to stopping hundreds of threats of MANY KINDS via hosts (since 99% of malicious threats online use hostnames - block them as I do in hosts (less overhead vs. ANYTHING else by FAR & pure kernelmode TCP/IP stack efficient no less)?

                  Can't TOUCH you nor you it. No threat possible.

                  (...& that's ONLY a 1 year sample & I'd done THOUSANDS more at slashdot years before that and yes 99% use hostnames so hosts work against them harming you).

                  So much for your usual lies barbara (tom TRANZOID monstrosity aberration you are) and useless online troll chatterbox you has never done better work and I fairly challenged you to show you did.

                  You have not. You're all talk & ERRONEOUS talk (per the links above proving it you bullshit artist WANNABE do nothing LAZY bitch).

                  NOW: You RESORTING TO IMPERSONATING ME on your end only PROVES I really got to you barb/tom hudson tranny.

                  So much so you are reduced to showing us your true scum bag self in fact.

                  Oh & I thought YOU were going to SUE me? LMAO! You DID threaten that, so where is it?? BUTTHURT not enough grounds to go after me on? Nope. You humiliated yourself there too stupid.

                  ... & for what would you SUE me for, eh?

                  FACTS ABOUT YOU ADMITTING STALKING/HARASSING ME???

                  FACTS OF YOUR MANY multiple TECHNICAL FAILS on hosts, pascal vs. C/C++ I torched you on, that humiliated you & showed you are ALL BULLSHIT & not to be paid attention to bullshitter????

                  LOL!

                  * YOU WILL ALWAYS FAIL vs. me just as you FAILED @ being a MAN & since you couldn't GET ANY PUSSY you (lmao) DECIDED in your DRUG ADDLED BRAIN to SLICE OFF YOUR COCK & build your OWN pussy (only way you'd "get some", ever).... OMG!

                  APK

                  P.S.=> Hey FREAK - so now you like to IMPERSONATE me too? I'm going to PUBLICLY EMBARRASS YOUR ASS SO BAD on this site you will have to SLINK AROUND IN SHAME publicly but then, "your kind" (massive MASSIVE total losers in life) are USED to that, aren't you? You don't LIKE IT but I LOVE doing it, exposing you as the TRASH you are fucker... apk

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @06:06PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @06:06PM (#982115)

            That is an interesting position to take.

            Did you know that the world's largest company by market value, and also the large company owned by the world's richest man, were both started by individuals in their garages and subsidized by absolutely nothing except the personal (middle class) wealth of their founders? And the company that provided Elon Musk with the wealth he used to form Tesla and SpaceX (ok, buy, in the case of Tesla) also was formed in such a way?

            There are a lot of really obvious counterexamples to your bizarre and completely false belief.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday April 13 2020, @07:22PM (3 children)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:22PM (#982162) Journal

            That is clearly not true. Attic Greece was poverty stricken when it faced the Persians. And one Persian comment on Greece was "Who are these people who have special places where they go to cheat each other?".

            Now you could make arguments concering scale, and regulation, but those are generally considered impediments to "the free market" by those who call the selves believers in the Free Market.

            P.S.: Even Attica had *SOME* regulations on it's market. There never has been, and probably cannot exist, a totally free market. The questions are always about what regulations are reasonable. E.g., "Is it legal to misrepresent what you are selling?"

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 2) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:44PM (2 children)

              by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:44PM (#982273)

              I highly recommend this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Plan_of_the_English_Commerce [wikipedia.org] on the subject.

              --
              "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
              • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:14PM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:14PM (#982538) Journal
                I see the publish date is 1728. Something might have happened in the three centuries since.
                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday April 15 2020, @02:01AM

                  by legont (4179) on Wednesday April 15 2020, @02:01AM (#982884)

                  One might want to know how England became the leader because China is about to do exactly the same. In fact China is probably doing it already.

                  Hint: England inserted trade knife into Amsterdam while the old masters were busy fighting Spain. It did Dutch for good. Specifically, they Brits stopped all the trading in the most difficult moment and strangled them.

                  --
                  "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @07:41PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @07:41PM (#982183)

            So why was it that when the US ended the Shuttle program, that the launch rate the Russians were charging NASA to get to the ISS increased 372 percent? Now that SpaceX can provide that for less money, the Russians have to slash their rate. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

            If it makes you feel any better, the United Launch Alliance is feeling the squeeze by SpaceX as well.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @05:34PM (8 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @05:34PM (#982094) Journal

        The point still stands - the only reason Musk is ahead as a business is the illegal help of the US government.

        Like what? Sorry, just because SpaceX does business with NASA and the Department of Defense, doesn't make that illegal help.

        • (Score: 2) by edIII on Monday April 13 2020, @07:42PM (7 children)

          by edIII (791) on Monday April 13 2020, @07:42PM (#982185)

          My reaction too. Illegal according to which law in which country?

          In any case, Musk pointed out the 800lb gorilla in the room quite succinctly, "SpaceX rockets are 80% reusable, theirs are 0%. This is the actual problem."

          I guess price dumping is akin to loss leading, which is kinda shitty to me. In that it is certainly a way for people with deep pockets to manipulate a market. However, this is just Musk having lowered his operating costs through advanced technology.

          Don't like the guy, but he's correct. Musk is beating them with advanced technology that allows them to get to space cheaper. Nothing underhanded about that.

          --
          Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @08:49PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @08:49PM (#982218)

            probably some gay ass international law.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:46PM (5 children)

            by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:46PM (#982276)

            I would think it is illegal under WTO rules that the US currently sabotage. https://www.dw.com/en/wto-judge-blockage-could-prove-the-beginning-of-the-end/a-51613082 [dw.com]

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:29AM (4 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 14 2020, @01:29AM (#982333) Journal
              You would think that why? Should it be illegal for the US government to purchase goods and services from the private sector?
              • (Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:58AM (2 children)

                by legont (4179) on Tuesday April 14 2020, @02:58AM (#982383)

                The US government can buy thing from private sector, but in general it can not prefer American over the foreign within WTO agreement.
                For example, the US can not discriminate, let alone sanction, Chinese 5G. The only reason it can now is that US blocks appointment of WTO judges effectively sabotaging the world trade agreements - all of them at once,

                --
                "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:53AM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:53AM (#982402) Journal

                  The US government can buy thing from private sector, but in general it can not prefer American over the foreign within WTO agreement.

                  "In general." National security is one such exception (which covers a lot of aerospace business and China 5G too).

                  Let us also note that there is no launch service from Russia which presently can compete with SpaceX without substantial subsidies. It's not just the 80% reusability. SpaceX has a supply chain and manufacturing technology advantage.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:51AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @08:51AM (#982470)

                  The US government can buy thing from private sector, but in general it can not prefer American over the foreign within WTO agreement.

                  Yes, they can. And yes, they do, all the time.

                  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/us/politics/coronavirus-defense-production-act.html [nytimes.com]

                  WASHINGTON — Chemicals used to construct military missiles. Materials needed to build drones. Body armor for agents patrolling the southwest border. Equipment for natural disaster response.

                  A Korean War-era law called the Defense Production Act has been used to place hundreds of thousands of orders by President Trump and his administration to ensure the procurement of vital equipment, according to reports submitted to Congress and interviews with former government officials.

                  Yet as governors and members of Congress plead with the president to use the law to force the production of ventilators and other medical equipment to combat the coronavirus pandemic, he has for weeks treated it like a “break the glass” last resort, to be invoked only when all else fails.

                  ....

                  Invoking the Defense Production Act is hardly a rare occurrence. As recently as last summer, the Department of Defense used it to obtain rare earth metals needed to build lasers, jet engines and armored vehicles.

                  The Defense Department estimates that it has used the law’s powers 300,000 times a year. The Department of Homeland Security — including its subsidiary, FEMA — placed more than 1,000 so-called rated orders in 2018, often for hurricane and other disaster response and recovery efforts, according to a report submitted to Congress in 2019 by a committee of federal agencies formed to plan for the effective use of the law.

                  The law, which was used frequently by previous administrations as well, does not permit the federal government to assert complete control over a company. The federal government can, however, use it to jump ahead of other clients or issue loans so a company can buy all of the supplies it needs to complete the government’s order by a specific date.

                  Unless you are completely ignorant, US has favoured their own suppliers vast majority of the time. What you say about WTO, is completely bullshit. But ignorance is high these days and I fear we will be killing ourselves over something that we could have just bought few months ago. All thanks to nationalistic bullshit and *ignorant populations*. Happened before and so it probably will happen again.

              • (Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:02AM

                by legont (4179) on Tuesday April 14 2020, @03:02AM (#982384)

                Note that I do not place any moral judgement. I actually believe the US does the right thing. What I am saying is that the US violates and disregards the whole world trade system as it should at this point simply because we have to crash China all the laws be damned.

                --
                "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @05:51PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @05:51PM (#982105)

        You're just wrong.

        SpaceX has indeed had a decent amount of government contact work. Detractors point to the first commercial resupply contract awarded early on, which pushed them to quickly advance to Falcon 9 and when they didn't have a very good track record. You didn't even bother to reference that, instead posting a crappy Google redirect to a different story.

        The thing is, NASA wanted commercial resupply. Moving to commercial means you need to have redundancies because of the type of stuff we're seeing now with Starliner. Except Boeing couldn't get the program going fast enough, while at the same time the cost for launching a Soyuz magically went sky high thanks to the Russians knowing we didn't have any man rated launch capability.

        So SpaceX put forth a bid to send up cargo. Their bid was fantastical from the traditional spaceflight standpoint, in terms of speed, cost, and the fact that basically none of the necessary hardware existed. But they said they could do it when nobody else could, and NASA said okay we'll be willing to basically treat this like venture capital because the whole development budget SpaceX demanded wasn't really all that expensive compared to continued use of Soyuz. ULA and entrenched players laughed at it.

        SpaceX delivered. That's what you do with government grants or contracts. This wasn't in any way illegal.

        Now all the entrenched players are crying because SpaceX also figured out how to land and reuse their vehicles, which lets them completely outcompete the field until they do the same. And that same vehicle is rapidly building one of the longest and best service records in the history of spaceflight, so competitors can't really claim they have the edge on quality to justify their added expenses.

        Again, not at all illegal. SpaceX experiments and pushed the envelope in ways the rest couldn't be bothered.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM (4 children)

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM (#982170) Journal

          And, of course, it's a bit hypocritical for a government that calls itself communist to complain about government subsidy. (I'm not sure Russia still calls itself communist though. That feeling may just a a hangover from back in the day.)

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:49PM (3 children)

            by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:49PM (#982277)

            Russia today is way more capitalist than the US.

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @04:22AM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 14 2020, @04:22AM (#982412) Journal

              Russia today is way more capitalist than the US.

              Like state-owned Roscosmos versus purely private, SpaceX?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:01AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @09:01AM (#982475)

                Like state-owned Roscosmos versus purely private, SpaceX?

                Are you serious? Comparing Roscosmos to SpaceX is like comparing NASA to SpaceX. And as far as I know, NASA is not exactly private and it probably should not be private.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:08PM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:08PM (#982536) Journal
                  Of course, I'm serious. The comparison is valid because Roscosmos is a competitor to SpaceX in a way that NASA is not. They manage directly the organizations that manufacture the Soyuz [wikipedia.org] and Angara [wikipedia.org] rocket families.

                  And as far as I know, NASA is not exactly private and it probably should not be private.

                  But neither should it be competing with private business for the commercial launch market. And frankly, the same goes for Roscosmos. They should have spun off their control a couple decades ago.

      • (Score: 2) by sjames on Monday April 13 2020, @08:16PM

        by sjames (2882) on Monday April 13 2020, @08:16PM (#982205) Journal

        It had help in the sense that NASA granted SpaceX a significant development contract and took a chance on the newcomer, but I wouldn't call that illegal. Actually getting the 1st stage to safely return in reusable condition is a great accomplishment and clearly has bearing on the cost of a launch.

        It turns out, the chance NASA took is paying off now, it hoped to get cheaper launches and now it has them.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by DannyB on Monday April 13 2020, @04:46PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @04:46PM (#982068) Journal

      Technically, the Shuttle was reusable. Bit was a Phyrric victory. [wikipedia.org] (not to be confused with a phallic victory)

      But reusable at what cost?

      When Regan approved the replacement shuttle, the cost, back then, was $3 Billion. (That's about 3 nuclear subs.)

      In recent times, a shuttle launch cost nearly a billion dollars. (sorry, no source other than my flailing memory with one bearing going out)

      So while it is reusable, it is not economical. When a handfull of launches, maybe five, pays for the entire cost of the vehicle, is that economical?

      But then we have SLS. It's purpose is to use up spare old shuttle parts. So it puts an expensive re-usable Shuttle engine on an expendable vehicle. Development costs have spiraled out of control. Each launch estimated to cost at least a billion. Wow.

      SpaceX must be a huge embarrassment to a lot of people, including Putin.

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
  • (Score: 0, Troll) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @04:28PM (3 children)

    by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @04:28PM (#982051)

    Yes, that's what the pedo guy was, is, and ever will be.

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @05:15PM (2 children)

      by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @05:15PM (#982082)

      Troll again? No, it is an insult Musk style. One of the ways he gets what he wants.
      You may, of course, put him on pedestal and pray for him, slave.

      --
      "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM (#982093)

        I hear you. We don't need chair-throwing, brown-shirted, misogynist, dude weed lmao smoking pedophiles with cuddle puddle couches screwing around with rockets. Somebody could get killed.

        We need a reliable company known for quality products like Boeing. They hire real men who know how to treat women right.

        • (Score: 2) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:53PM

          by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:53PM (#982279)

          Nah, just like I said above - don't make the motherfucker a moral hero. It's bad for morals, while he is quite good been an asshole as is.

          --
          "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
  • (Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (15 children)

    by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (#982058) Journal

    Russian Space Agency Abolished and Replaced Following Financial Violations [soylentnews.org]

    The space agency will be replaced by a state corporation, also called Roscosmos. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told a talk show that "It will take maybe another two to three years to intensively technically re-equip the rocket and space industry." He warned last week that Russia could lose its 40% share of the global commercial satellite launch market to firms such as SpaceX if reforms do not succeed.

    NASA and Roscosmos Release Joint Statement on ISS Leak Amid Rumors [soylentnews.org]

    Publicly, Roscosmos leader Dmitry Rogozin was quoted as saying about Russia's investigation into the leak, "Results we have received do not give us an objective picture. The situation is much more complex than we earlier thought." Privately, however, several sources from the space agency are leaking much juicier comments to the Russian media. "Our Soyuz is next to the Rassvet (Dawn) module, right next to the hatch into the American segment of the station," one source told Kommersant. "Access to our ship is possible only with the permission of our commander, but we cannot exclude an unsanctioned access by the Americans."

    Head of Russian Space Agency Roscosmos Wavers on Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway [soylentnews.org]

    Moscow may abandon a project to build a space station in lunar orbit in partnership with U.S. space agency NASA because it does not want a "second fiddle role," a Russian official said on Saturday.

    [...] [The] head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

    Russia’s passive-aggressive reaction to SpaceX may mask a deeper truth [arstechnica.com]

    One of the big questions surrounding the first launch of SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft was how the Russians would react. They have held considerable sway in the International Space Station partnership by controlling access to the orbiting laboratory since the 2011 retirement of NASA's Space Shuttle. So far, the Russian response has been one of throwing small bits of shade here and there but trying not to be too obvious about it.

    [...]

    With this launch, even if it was ordered by NASA, this private company SpaceX has made Roscosmos null and void. They have shown Roscosmos who’s who. Everyone remembers Rogozin’s remarks about trampolines and such, so in fact this isn’t just resentment, it is a constant major headache for Roscosmos. In the first place, the congratulations message was late. Second, Roscosmos sent out two congratulation tweets, one in English, and another completely different text in Russian. So of course, this is a sign of resentment, it is the reaction of an unreliable leader who is lagging behind, so really it was strange they (Roscosmos) reacted at all. Bear in mind Roscosmos in fact never gave their approval for the docking. They voiced a number of technical concerns, perhaps even with some basis, but we saw that the docking was simply brilliant as it took place. So, yes, this was a reaction of someone left behind.

    [...] I would like to point out something else interesting—from one point of view this is a good thing, because we were carrying astronauts, we were getting basically for free $400 million a year at about $90 million per seat for each foreign astronaut. That is more than the entire cost of the rocket and the ship and launch operations taken together. This means as long as we had at least one foreign astronaut on board, we were launching for free. For us this wasn’t just a freebie—it was a narcotic. It allowed us to do absolutely nothing and still earn money. And now, this narcotic is going to be cut off, and we will be forced to do something. Either we will pass into history along with all of our space achievements, like Portugal, with its discovery of America and the voyages of Magellan and so forth, or we will have to seriously do something.

    Roscosmos has stagnated. Dmitry Rogozin has acted like a clown and is probably scared of his dictator-boss. And it's only going to get worse for them once Starship starts flying.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 1, Troll) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @05:22PM (9 children)

      by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @05:22PM (#982088)

      Yeah, even though one foreign seat would finance the whole launch, it is still cheaper then SpaceX's. Perhaps, Rogozin should offer free tickets to the station as soviets have done.

      --
      "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM

        by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM (#982092) Journal

        WRONG. Crew Dragon will cost $55 million per astronaut. Boeing's Starliner will cost a little more than Soyuz, at $90 million per astronaut.

        http://web.archive.org/web/20200308145723/https://www.space.com/spacex-boeing-commercial-crew-seat-prices.html [archive.org]

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @05:39PM (6 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @05:39PM (#982098) Journal

        Yeah, even though one foreign seat would finance the whole launch, it is still cheaper then SpaceX's.

        One "foreign seat" would pay for two Falcon 9 launches.

        Perhaps, Rogozin should offer free tickets to the station as soviets have done.

        Soviet Russia was dead and gone before ISS was started.

        • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @06:48PM (3 children)

          by Sulla (5173) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:48PM (#982140) Journal

          Soviet Russia was dead and gone before ISS was started.

          Your point? Just because it would have been impossible for them to follow through doesn't mean they didn't do it.

          If Mickey Mouse can vote, the Soviets can continue to offer free flights to the ISS

          --
          Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @07:32PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:32PM (#982171) Journal

            If Mickey Mouse can vote, the Soviets can continue to offer free flights to the ISS

            I think I'd like to have a little of what Mickey Mouse is smoking.

          • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @07:37PM

            by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @07:37PM (#982177) Journal

            Roscosmos can't afford Make-A-Wish charity launches. They will launch capitalist pigs, until SpaceX takes that business away from them. ☹

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday April 15 2020, @12:20PM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 15 2020, @12:20PM (#983014) Journal

            The point he is making is that there are no 'soviets'. There are Russians, but the Soviet Union ceased to exist decades ago. You are using an outdated term in a - presumably - derogatory way for some reason or other.

            The current ruling party in Russia is the United Russia party led, of course, by Putin.

            --
            I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:36PM (1 child)

          by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:36PM (#982269)

          I do not follow the pricing thing, but according to this https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/nasa-report-finds-boeing-seat-prices-are-60-higher-than-spacex/ [arstechnica.com]
          NASA will pay SpaceX $55 per seat assuming all four seats are taken all the time.

          From the same source

          Overall, NASA paid Russia an average cost per seat of $55.4 million for the 70 completed and planned missions from 2006 through 2020. Since 2017, NASA has paid an average of $79.7 million.

          So, yeah, Russians got greedy later but just changed their mind. Regardless, Soyuz is still cheaper, it seems.

          --
          "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
          • (Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:12AM

            by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:12AM (#982309) Journal

            NASA will pay SpaceX $55 per seat assuming all four seats are taken all the time.

            And that is the plan, except for the Demo-2 flight.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_2#List_of_flights [wikipedia.org]

            Keep in mind that the craft can actually seat up to 7. Soyuz-MS can do up to 3. NASA will carry cargo along with up to 4 astronauts:

            NASA flights to the ISS will only have four astronauts, with the added payload mass and volume used to carry pressurized cargo.

            Possibly tons of cargo. Payload capacity is listed as 6,000 kg to orbit.

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:45AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:45AM (#982319)

        There is no free launch.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by sorokin on Monday April 13 2020, @06:12PM

      by sorokin (187) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:12PM (#982116)

      Dmitry Rogozin has acted like a clown and is probably scared of his dictator-boss.

      I find it very embarrassing every time Rogozin open his mouth and speak. I'm pretty sure many other (majority?) Russians think the same. Sadly, I have to agree with you, he acts like a clown. What is worse — he knows nothing about the industry he is a head of. He was graduated as a journalists and whole his career he was a politician.

      I remember everybody were very puzzled when Putin appointed Rogozin to be a head of Roskosmos. But should anyone be surprised when the biggest oil company in the country is run by a philologist?

    • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @06:45PM (3 children)

      by Sulla (5173) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:45PM (#982137) Journal

      Moscow may abandon a project to build a space station in lunar orbit in partnership with U.S. space agency NASA because it does not want a "second fiddle role," a Russian official said on Saturday.

              [...] [The] head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

      Was Russia only willing to participate in this lunar space station because they thought it would be their rockets being used? Sounds like "illegal" government funding to keep Roscosmos alive.

      --
      Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM

        by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM (#982169) Journal

        Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

        This part is a Rogozin fever dream. It would not materialize.

        The Lunar Gateway has been in flux anyway, although it is still on the agenda and Europe, Japan, and Canada are officially on board.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @07:52PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:52PM (#982191) Journal

        Sounds like "illegal" government funding to keep Roscosmos alive.

        Not to mention 25 years of "illegal" government funding via the ISS to said Russian space program.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @09:25PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @09:25PM (#982230)

        One of the goals of the ISS was for the US to keep the Russian space industry subsidized so that all their rocket engineers wouldn't go make ballistic missiles, so they're kind of hoping for a repeat here.

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