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posted by Fnord666 on Monday May 11 2020, @08:06AM   Printer-friendly
from the garbage-in-garbage-out dept.

We have had several submissions in the past couple of days about the Ferguson code.

For those that don't know - the Ferguson code, also known as the Ferguson Model or the Imperial College Model, is the epidemiology prediction software and the underlying model upon which the UK government is basing all its decisions relating to combating CV-19.

It appears that there is some question about the accuracy of the model and the repeatability of its predictions.

Thanks to NPC-131072, FatPhil, and nutherguy for their submissions. Details begin below the fold.

Is the Chilling Truth That the Decision to Impose Lockdown Was Based on Crude Mathematical Guesswork

Is the chilling truth that the decision to impose lockdown was based on crude mathematical guesswork? -- Sott.net:

Details of the model [Ferguson's] team built to predict the epidemic are emerging and they are not pretty. In the respective words of four experienced modellers, the code is "deeply riddled" with bugs, "a fairly arbitrary Heath Robinson machine", has "huge blocks of code - bad practice" and is "quite possibly the worst production code I have ever seen".

When ministers make statements about coronavirus policy they invariably say that they are "following the science". But cutting-edge science is messy and unclear, a contest of ideas arbitrated by facts, a process of conjecture and refutation. This is not new. Almost two centuries ago Thomas Huxley described the "great tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."

In this case, that phrase "the science" effectively means the Imperial College model, forecasting potentially hundreds of thousands of deaths, on the output of which the Government instituted the lockdown in March. Sage's advice has a huge impact on the lives of millions. Yet the committee meets in private, publishes no minutes, and until it was put under pressure did not even release the names of its members. We were making decisions based on the output of a black box, and a locked one at that.

It has become commonplace among financial forecasters, the Treasury, climate scientists, and epidemiologists to cite the output of mathematical models as if it was "evidence". The proper use of models is to test theories of complex systems against facts. If instead we are going to use models for forecasting and policy, we must be able to check that they are accurate, particularly when they drive life and death decisions. This has not been the case with the Imperial College model.

At the time of the lockdown, the model had not been released to the scientific community. When Ferguson finally released his code last week, it was a reorganised program different from the version run on March 16.

[...] We now know that the model's software is a 13-year-old, 15,000-line program that simulates homes, offices, schools, people and movements. According to a team at Edinburgh University which ran the model, the same inputs give different outputs, and the program gives different results if it is run on different machines, and even if it is run on the same machine using different numbers of central-processing units.

Worse, the code does not allow for large variations among groups of people with respect to their susceptibility to the virus and their social connections. An infected nurse in a hospital is likely to transmit the virus to many more people than an asymptomatic child. Introducing such heterogeneity shows that the threshold to achieve herd immunity with modest social distancing is much lower than the 50-60 per cent implied by the Ferguson model. One experienced modeller tells us that "my own modelling suggests that somewhere between 10 per cent and 30 per cent would suffice, depending on what assumptions one makes."

Code Review of Ferguson's Model – Lockdown Sceptics

Code Review of Ferguson's Model – Lockdown Sceptics:

by Sue Denim (not the author's real name)

Imperial finally released a derivative of Ferguson's code. I figured I'd do a review of it and send you some of the things I noticed. I don't know your background so apologies if some of this is pitched at the wrong level.

[...] It isn't the code Ferguson ran to produce his famous Report 9. What's been released on GitHub is a heavily modified derivative of it, after having been upgraded for over a month by a team from Microsoft and others. This revised codebase is split into multiple files for legibility and written in C++, whereas the original program was "a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade" (this is considered extremely poor practice). A request for the original code was made 8 days ago but ignored, and it will probably take some kind of legal compulsion to make them release it. Clearly, Imperial are too embarrassed by the state of it ever to release it of their own free will, which is unacceptable given that it was paid for by the taxpayer and belongs to them.

What it's doing is best described as "SimCity without the graphics". It attempts to simulate households, schools, offices, people and their movements, etc. I won't go further into the underlying assumptions, since that's well explored elsewhere.

Due to bugs, the code can produce very different results given identical inputs. They routinely act as if this is unimportant.

This problem makes the code unusable for scientific purposes, given that a key part of the scientific method is the ability to replicate results. Without replication, the findings might not be real at all – as the field of psychology has been finding out to its cost. Even if their original code was released, it's apparent that the same numbers as in Report 9 might not come out of it.

We Now Know Far More About COVID-19 - the Lockdown Should End

We Now Know Far More About COVID-19 - The Lockdown Should End:

On March 23rd, when Boris Johnson declared a lockdown in the UK, it was a beyond surreal moment for me. With no debate, our freedoms, social life and jobs were gone.

The reasons given for the lockdown were to try and save lives, slow the spread of this virus and limit the impact on the NHS. It sounds good until you start to pose searching questions. Confining people to their homes and a complete loss of social life comes with its own set of serious problems. Focusing on Covid-19 means other people needing operations are postponed for months.

We had heard about other so-called Pandemics that had turned out to be nothing of the sort, Swine flu being one example. What was different about Covid-19? Johnson had seemed to be going the way of putting in some mitigation recommendations, like social distancing, hand washing and isolating of the elderly. Then he changed his mind.

The reason were the numbers of possible deaths that could occur if a full lockdown was not implemented. The numbers came from a Prof Neil Ferguson of Imperial College, London.

Ferguson had told the government that according to his computer model, over 500,000 people would die in the UK if they did nothing, 250,000 people would die if he continued with lesser mitigation in place, but allowing businesses to stay open as usual. With a full lockdown, deaths would be 20,000 or less, and the impact to the NHS would be kept to a minimum.

What immediately struck me was that Ferguson's computer model is just that, it's an estimate based on certain data. His projections could be totally wrong, we've all heard the expression, garbage in, garbage out. Why on earth would Johnson decide to implement such drastic measures based on a theoretical computer model?

It was also disturbing to find out that Ferguson has a lot of form for making highly exaggerated claims with his computer models.

Code Review of Ferguson's Model

Wonder why you're in lockdown? Wonder no more, the code review is in:

Imperial finally released a derivative of Ferguson's code. I figured I'd do a review of it and send you some of the things I noticed. I don't know your background so apologies if some of this is pitched at the wrong level.

It isn't the code Ferguson ran to produce his famous Report 9. What's been released on GitHub is a heavily modified derivative of it, after having been upgraded for over a month by a team from Microsoft and others. This revised codebase is split into multiple files for legibility and written in C++, whereas the original program was "a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade" (this is considered extremely poor practice). A request for the original code was made 8 days ago but ignored, and it will probably take some kind of legal compulsion to make them release it. Clearly, Imperial are too embarrassed by the state of it ever to release it of their own free will, which is unacceptable given that it was paid for by the taxpayer and belongs to them.

I predict this story will be better commented than the original code.


Original Submission #1Original Submission #2Original Submission #3Original Submission #4

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @08:18AM (64 children)

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @08:18AM (#992712) Journal

    We Now Know Far More About COVID-19 - The Lockdown Should End

    A model is dubious. Therefore, we actually know nothing, whereas before we thought we could guess something.
    And because we now know nothing, let's take the riskier path (and let the God sort out the dead).

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @10:09AM (46 children)

      by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @10:09AM (#992726) Journal

      some models [weforum.org] suggest over 2.2 million could die in the US, even with some form of lock down. Seems the UK and US "freedom" people do think some (others) in their country are 'expendable'.

      What matters is keeping the R value below 1 [msn.com]
      Anything you do to make that happen is probably worth it.

      --
      "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @10:18AM (38 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @10:18AM (#992727) Journal

        Seems the UK and US "freedom" people do think some (others) in their country are 'expendable'.

        You do realize that it's a lottery. Pure random chance, whether you get it or don't get it. That makes us all equally randomly expendable. Chances are, you younger people will recover, while us older people have higher chances of dying. So - it should mean something when the freedom people are generally over thirty, often over forty, and the over 50 and over 60 people should make some sort of an impression on you.

        What's that old saying? Give me freedom, or give me death? And, he who would give up essential liberties for the sake of safety deserves neither.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @10:28AM (5 children)

          by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @10:28AM (#992730) Journal

          chance?
          no:
          Individual [knau.org]
          behaviour [theconversation.com]
          matters [msn.com]

          If it were purely chance, Australia, South Korea and Italy and the US would have similar infection and death rates.

          --
          "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @11:12AM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @11:12AM (#992744) Journal

            Yes, indeed. And, that is why they shut down all the parks and beaches around the nation. Someplace where people can easily maintain distances of 25 ft, or even 100 feet, from other human beings are shut down - but the grocery stores and convenience stores are all open, where people must pass within 6 feet of each other.

            There's some kind of a short circuit in the logic there, amirite?

            The "authorities" have overstepped their authority in most cases, all around the country. Power tripping egotistical bastards crave more power, so they write more edicts. Keep that in mind when you are judging those who want to come out of their homes.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @11:59AM (2 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @11:59AM (#992760) Journal

              Keep that in mind when you are judging those who want to come out of their homes.

              I'm not judging you, I'm judging your actions and assess their risk to myself.
              Granted, Arkansas is quite a distance from Melbourne, thanks God for that. Except there are [sbs.com.au] covidiots [news.com.au] closer than you to myself.

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @12:12PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:12PM (#992769) Journal

                Jesus Christ on crutches - you live in 'Straya with the dropbears and shit, and you're worried about a fekkin' VIRUS?!?!?! 'Straya, where crocs and and snakes and spiders crawl out of the loo to bite your ass off?

                You REALLY need to watch Chopper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc [youtube.com]

                • (Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:33PM

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:33PM (#992777) Journal

                  you live in 'Straya with the dropbears and shit, and you're worried about a fekkin' VIRUS?!?!?!

                  Well, mate, the virus is not yet adjusted to Vegemite, like the drop bears and shit.
                  So one gotta harden the fuck up, let the hot airs go, work with one's mates and respect the reality, otherwise it's gonna bite one's ass off this world. Fo' good.

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday May 11 2020, @04:34PM

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Monday May 11 2020, @04:34PM (#992920) Journal

              There's some kind of a short circuit in the logic there, amirite?

              You need food or you die. Beaches, not so much. Seems pretty logical to me.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @10:34AM (29 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @10:34AM (#992735) Journal

          Give me freedom, or give me death?

          You are within your right to do whatever stupid legal thing you want. You have no right to require others to agree with you or to suffer the consequences of your stupidity. So, no, I won't hold your beer.

          And, he who would give up essential liberties for the sake of safety deserves neither.

          To paraphrase: "Those willing to give up the live of others for his own monetary gain, deserve neither for himself".

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @11:14AM (28 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @11:14AM (#992745) Journal

            In one of those articles, New York disclosed the fact that about 2/3 of those who tested positive had indeed observed all of the state's guidelines.

            Don't bother holding my beer, I'll take it with me.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @11:50AM (26 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @11:50AM (#992755) Journal

              In one of those articles, New York disclosed the fact that about 2/3 of those who tested positive had indeed observed all of the state's guidelines.

              well, if indeed what they say is truthful, probably others (that haven't) managed to get close to them or let viruses on surfaces touched by the infected; because, really, a virus infection doesn't work without the contact with the virus.

              Or maybe I'm wrong and the 5g infected them, right?

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 1, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @12:02PM (16 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:02PM (#992762) Journal

                Just water droplets. Guy in the street coughs, those droplets spray, and a breeze carries a few of them into your home, or at least your yard. You got it. And, SOMEONE in the house has to do some grocery shopping. That someone got it at the grocery store, or in whatever transportation he used to get to the store. Even if you pay someone to do your shopping, and deliver it to your door, he/she may have it, or someone they came into proximity with coughed in the vicinity of your groceries - before or after it was picked from the store shelf.

                No one is isolated to the extent necessary to ensure they don't get infected. It's not possible, unless you live on several acres, and grow all your own food.

                Last year at this time, your chances of dying in an automobile accident were higher than this year's chances of dying of covid. You still drove, or at least rode, in cars, right?

                I think it's time for some useful advice from Chopper - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc [youtube.com]

                • (Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:18PM (8 children)

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:18PM (#992771) Journal

                  Guy in the street coughs, those droplets spray, and a breeze carries a few of them into your home, or at least your yard.
                  ...
                  No one is isolated to the extent necessary to ensure they don't get infected. It's not possible, unless you live on several acres, and grow all your own food.

                  Your are looking for Nirvana [wikipedia.org], I see, nothing short of perfect is good enough.

                  It's quite extraordinary how Australia managed to be sooo lucky. Maybe we have better homes, in which the breeze outside can't carry any virus into them.
                  Or maybe we had better observance of social distancing rules and a lesser number of "mah freedom above everything else, you can die for all I care".
                  I really don't know which of the two is more probable, what do you think? (yeah, I know, false dilemma, still the question of ratio of the two is valid)

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by coolgopher on Monday May 11 2020, @12:42PM (5 children)

                    by coolgopher (1157) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:42PM (#992782)

                    Maybe we have better homes

                    Ahahahahahahahaha. Hahahahahahehh. Ohehhahehhahhahhahah. Ehehehehheh. Heh. Heh. Good one. Thanks for the laugh. Until I came to Australia I had never envisaged anyone living in such drafty and uninsulated buildings in a first world country. It was a real eye opener, I'll tell ya.

                    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @01:04PM (4 children)

                      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @01:04PM (#992794) Journal

                      Cool down, gopher, don't ask me to mark every other of my phrases with (grin) or /s.

                      --
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:45PM (3 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:45PM (#992838) Journal
                        I'll insist on it! Your internet face shall be a permanent rictus!
                        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @03:09PM (2 children)

                          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @03:09PM (#992856) Journal

                          I'll insist on it!

                          That cool gopher had the fortitude to leave his well insulated home and come to live into a drafty one, among dropbears that just can't wait to flatten you and, as one of the immortals has put it into words [soylentnews.org], with crocs and and snakes and spiders ready to crawl out of the loo to bite your ass off.

                          He at least would have a standing to ask me that and I'd consider his request.
                          You, on the other side? You can insist until blue in your face, I don't even know you. (grin)

                          --
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                          • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday May 12 2020, @04:49AM (1 child)

                            by coolgopher (1157) on Tuesday May 12 2020, @04:49AM (#993245)

                            Well look, it took me a while to realise that the reason you want large gaps under the doors rather than small gaps was so the huntsmen [wikipedia.org] could get in and clear out the other spiders.

                            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 12 2020, @05:02AM

                              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 12 2020, @05:02AM (#993248) Journal

                              Yeah, nah,mate... the cultural context is larger. See, the blurring between indoor-outdoor living is trending, the Aussies were doing whatever they could in the conditions of stagnating wages.

                              --
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                  • (Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday May 11 2020, @07:38PM (1 child)

                    by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @07:38PM (#993015) Journal

                    It's quite extraordinary how Australia managed to be sooo lucky.

                    Curiosity: Are your cases higher or lower closer to the equator? Australia has the highest UV index in the world, with exposure decreasing the farther south you go.

                    Also, sorry about the whole ozone hole thing. That was an oops.

                    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @10:14PM

                      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @10:14PM (#993110) Journal

                      No correlation with the UV, rather with the density of the population. South Australia and Northern Territory are free from the virus.
                      https://www.covid19data.com.au/recoveries [covid19data.com.au]

                      --
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:45PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:45PM (#992786)

                  > Last year at this time, your chances of dying in an automobile accident were higher than this year's chances of dying of covid. You still drove, or at least rode, in cars, right?

                  Current US deaths from Covid are over 80K. Last year's auto accidents took what, maybe half that? So at the nation level you are wrong. Now, if you start to look at different locations, the ratio varies widely, for example in NY City there are many people that don't drive (walk, use the subway), so their risk in a car is near zero, while their Covid risk on subway appears to be relatively high.

                  Then if you look at some rural area where auto accidents are a big player, it depends on whether you drive drunk or not... and those same rural areas are probably a good place to shelter in place to avoid the virus.

                  Point I'm trying to make is that broad generalizations usually fall down with a bit of a deeper look. Anything that involves "the population" is probably complex, so might as well incorporate that into your worldview.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:22PM (2 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:22PM (#992825) Journal

                  Just water droplets. Guy in the street coughs, those droplets spray, and a breeze carries a few of them into your home, or at least your yard. You got it.

                  There are more obvious ways that can spread. First, your home has one of those one in three people. Or there's more than one in three and they lie on surveys.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 11 2020, @03:13PM (1 child)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @03:13PM (#992862) Journal

                    Well, to be fair, I always lie on surveys. That is, I lie, unless I just hang the phone up without answering. :^)

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @06:05AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @06:05AM (#993259)

                      Are you saying you're a liar? And a thief? And an adulterer? Sir?

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @03:49PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @03:49PM (#992888)

                  The experts disagree with you on how virus spreads https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them [erinbromage.com]
                  While the experts often make mistakes. They are more reliable than some random quack pulling ideas out of his ass.

                  I agree that driving is dangerous, One should do it with extra care and keep it to a minimum. Perhaps if everyone felt that way it would be less dangerous.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @06:21PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @06:21PM (#992980)

                    That's a good article.

                    The thing that is missing is how increasing the external viral load affects the severity of the symptoms.
                    Does a big load increase the odds of death over asymptomatic?

              • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:53PM (8 children)

                by crafoo (6639) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:53PM (#992790)

                Virus load matters in the probability of being infected and the severity of the infection. Shutting family members in with the asymptomatic infected was the worst thing that could have possibly been done.
                Sending infected elderly to nursing homes to be shut in with the uninfected, knowing they were infected, was criminally negligent.
                This virus has a benign mortality rate. If you're seriously afraid of death from the common cold, well, you are a typical human, proven through studies to be very bad at estimating risk.

                • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @01:54PM (7 children)

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @01:54PM (#992810) Journal

                  Virus load matters in the probability of being infected and the severity of the infection. Shutting family members in with the asymptomatic infected was the worst thing that could have possibly been done.

                  Because otherwise what? Those asymptomatic infected would have taken to sleep in parks on benches?

                  No, mate, criminally negligent was to deny the gravity of the pandemic, to refuse to admit that free market doesn't work in the public interest (albeit, incidentally, it may happen) [soylentnews.org], the idea that post-truth authoritarianism beats science [soylentnews.org], one on top of the other everything that contributed to:
                  - the inability to protect US health workers
                  - the inability to detect asymptomatic infections due to faulty tests
                  - the inability to flatten the curve under what the heath system can cope with (leading to cascading failures [wikipedia.org])
                  - the inability to ramp up the public heath countermeasures (fer fuck sake, the Chinese built 2 hospitals in one week [qz.com] to cater for their estimated load)

                  This virus has a benign mortality rate.

                  And the things can't get worse [soylentnews.org], right? Like, what, the virus can't mutate without a POTUS executive order?

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                  • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:29PM (6 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:29PM (#992832) Journal
                    I notice a strong detachment from reality here.

                    to refuse to admit that free market doesn't work in the public interest (albeit, incidentally, it may happen)

                    What free market? I'll note that key complaints with the US federal government is that it has broken a moderately "free" market in important ways that made things worse, such as screwing up the logistics of distributing masks and hand sanitizer, and testing for covid.

                    the idea that post-truth authoritarianism beats science

                    Like Ferguson's model?

                    - the inability to protect US health workers
                    - the inability to detect asymptomatic infections due to faulty tests
                    - the inability to flatten the curve under what the heath system can cope with (leading to cascading failures

                    None of which turned out to be significant problems in the long run. The curve got flattened. Tests got better. And US health workers are protected.

                    • (Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @02:55PM (5 children)

                      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:55PM (#992844) Journal

                      The curve got flattened

                      You keep saying that. I don't think it means what you thing it means: the new cases/day is still higher than the ended cases/day.
                      Proof? As of today, the active cases is still with a positive slope [worldometers.info].
                      True, you managed to bend it a bit towards horizontal, no longer growing that fast.

                      --
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                      • (Score: 4, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Monday May 11 2020, @05:28PM

                        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Monday May 11 2020, @05:28PM (#992952) Journal

                        Haha, curves being flattened? Expecting conservatives to understand second order effects is like the second most popular definition of insanity!

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @07:45PM (2 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @07:45PM (#993021) Journal

                        the new cases/day is still higher than the ended cases/day.

                        "Flattening" != "flat".

                        • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @09:11PM (1 child)

                          by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @09:11PM (#993078) Journal

                          don't misquote yourself, you said "flattened".

                          The curve got flattened. Tests got better. And US health workers are protected.

                          First statement is wrong, for the US, anyway. Think "better" means 'some aren't crap now", and "protected" is probably not true everywhere (if anywhere) in the US.

                           

                          --
                          "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @09:46PM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @09:46PM (#993094) Journal
                            You are correct in that. But how do you get a nonzero infections curve in the first place, if it's perfectly flat? When they speak of "flattening the curve", they aren't speaking of no infections, but rather of slowing the growth side of the infections curve so that new infections per day remain low enough for the medical system to manage. That's been done so far. That's a curve that has been flattened.

                            Now, if things open up and we get a unmanageable surge in infections, then that part wouldn't be flattened. That's a potential scenario to worry about here.
                      • (Score: 1, Troll) by ChrisMaple on Monday May 11 2020, @07:51PM

                        by ChrisMaple (6964) on Monday May 11 2020, @07:51PM (#993027)

                        Many places aren't reporting recoveries. A fair number of those that do get reported are ignored or missed by those accumulating the statistics. Many people aren't bothering to report that they've recovered.

                        Take a look at the statistics for Vermont. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Vermont [wikipedia.org] As of May 10, of official cases the recovery rate is 85%, the death rate 5%, the active cases 10%. This should be representative of most of the country, yet the wikipedia claim for the U.S. as a whole is a 20% recovery rate. This strongly suggests that the current claim of active cases in the universe of official cases for the U.S. is 3 to 7 times too high. Whatever the claim for active cases is, or its increase or decrease, the numbers can't be trusted.

                        Or look at another way https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_States/0/0fa5b98d58e5e63f9278d4e6c5dae245d574b643.png [wikipedia.org] It's to be expected that the disease will have resolved itself in almost all patients in well under three weeks, yet the graph shows a 5 week lag from active cases to recoveries. I see 3 possibilities here: the average duration of illness is 5 weeks (unlikely), recoveries aren't being reported (likely partly true), recoveries aren't being reported in a timely manner (likely partly true).

            • (Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Monday May 11 2020, @08:09PM

              by Dr Spin (5239) on Monday May 11 2020, @08:09PM (#993042)

              New York disclosed the fact that about 2/3 of those who tested positive had indeed observed all of the state's guidelines.

              And this in a country where people with guns are fighting for the right to lie their heads off!

              Just maybe, there is no way to tell if anyone "observed" the guidelines as they flew past at 700MPH, let alone actually obeyed them.

              --

              Making America Stupid Again

              --
              Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:12PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:12PM (#992819) Journal

          You do realize that it's a lottery. Pure random chance, whether you get it or don't get it.

          No, I don't realize it nor do you. I just had this discussion a few days back while discussing SpaceX's early successes around 2011. The thesis was at the time, NASA couldn't know whether SpaceX was capable of building a larger rocket or not, because they could have been lucky.

          Ok, so now, what is chance?

          For example, suppose we have a game of chance which on the flip of a fair coin (which can only flip head or tails), gives you 10% of what you bet on heads and on tails, takes away 10%. Repeatedly playing the game over and over, rebetting whatever your current stake is, will slowly reduce your money by about 0.5% per game on average. Now suppose you get 20% when you flip heads and only lose 10% when you flip tails. Suddenly, it's a net earner with about 4% return per game on average.

          There's a very small chance that you could win big with the first game payouts and lose big with the second after playing a bunch of games. But the odds against those events happening go up as you keep playing.

          We could say this is all chance, but it's chance with a thumb on the scale. That's the problem with calling things "luck". You're ignoring that the probabilities are almost always biased. There are a number of companies that were in the same place as SpaceX was (for example, Rotary Rocket [wikipedia.org],Ball Aerospace [wikipedia.org], and E-Prime Aerospace [eprimeaerospace.com]) with a launch vehicle idea and a bunch of money. Why they failed where SpaceX succeeded is not just luck.

          Here, we can put a thumb on the scale to yield radically different outcomes for society concerning covid. We can indeed get new infections down to the point that they dwindle to zero. And I think we can do it without massively compromising on our freedom. But it at least requires people to try to not spread covid. I read of people bragging that they're not going to wear masks because somehow masks have become a symbol of oppression. WTH?

        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday May 11 2020, @04:31PM

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Monday May 11 2020, @04:31PM (#992917) Journal

          You do realize that it's a lottery. Pure random chance, whether you get it or don't get it.

          I have money and a good job that will let me work from home.

          The person who is going to lose their unemployment insurance when we "reopen" and is forced to go in to work has a much higher risk and it is definitely NOT random.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @01:18PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @01:18PM (#992797)

        A simple question for those who believe that mitigation efforts have [to stop|have gone too far|is damned inconvenient|is costing me money|etc.]: If you truly believe that it's more important to risk *other* people up to potential sickness and death to retain your liberty, how far are you willing to go to support those beliefs?

        I've been thinking about this a lot recently, what with a bunch of different folks saying that we need to stop attempts at mitigation for [freedom|the economy|stopping government overreach|etc.] and that while doing so will cause *more deaths*, but it's justified because [freedom|the economy|government overreach|etc.].

        If it's truly the case that you believe this is all a [scam|hoax|power grab], and believe it strongly enough that you're willing to take steps that will guarantee more deaths, you should be among those who die.

        I say that those who are okay with people dying in larger numbers should have the courage of their own convictions and offer up their own lives in support of those convictions. This is absolutely reasonable, since the course of action being advocated (relaxing social distancing, gathering in large groups, etc.) is pretty much certain (and this is agreed upon by pretty much everyone, including those who advocate such things) to cause more people to die than otherwise might.

        As such, any plan to reopen in advance of the specific criteria detailed by epidemiologists (falling numbers of new infections, insufficient healthcare capacity, insufficient testing/tracing, etc.) should include death sentences for every person who advocates such a plan. The logic here being that if you're willing to sentence *other people* to death to do something, *you should be willing to die* to get it.

        So. All you "open shit up cuz I want to [go to church|patronize hookers|eat at a restaurant|be in close quarters with other folks at workplaces|go to concerts|etc.], and the science and advice of the experts be damned!" people do indeed recognize that doing so too quickly will cause people to die who wouldn't otherwise do so, should be willing to die themselves for whatever "principles" they claim makes them right.

        It seems a reasonable trade: You get what you want even though more people will die, but those people will include you. If you have the courage of your convictions, that should be an eminently fair trade, no?

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Nofsck Ingcloo on Monday May 11 2020, @04:21PM (1 child)

          by Nofsck Ingcloo (5242) on Monday May 11 2020, @04:21PM (#992905)

          > It is pretty much certain (and this is agreed upon by pretty much everyone, including those who advocate such things) to cause more people to die than otherwise might.

          I am among those who do NOT agree on this point. Given the lack of prevention (vaccine) it seems clear to me that (almost) everyone will eventually suffer the virus. Some will do so SOONER if restrictions are lifted. So I am willing to cooperate in "flattening the curve" so we do not swamp our medical facilities, but I am not willing to use the term "prevent" until there is a vaccine.

          --
          1984 was not written as an instruction manual.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @05:20PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @05:20PM (#992947)

            > It is pretty much certain (and this is agreed upon by pretty much everyone, including those who advocate such things) to cause more people to die than otherwise might.

            I am among those who do NOT agree on this point. Given the lack of prevention (vaccine) it seems clear to me that (almost) everyone will eventually suffer the virus. Some will do so SOONER if restrictions are lifted. So I am willing to cooperate in "flattening the curve" so we do not swamp our medical facilities, but I am not willing to use the term "prevent" until there is a vaccine.

            Where is your *evidence* that *no additional people will die* should we reopen *prior* to getting the pandemic under control?

            It's pretty clear that as long as there are infected folks passing Coronavirus to multiple other people (i.e., an R>1 [wikipedia.org]), that we're not going to get the multiple outbreaks that make up this pandemic under control.

            As long as cases continue to increase, the risk to the vulnerable remains high. What's more, at least *some* of those vulnerable people will end up infected, very sick and/or dead who very likely wouldn't if they have the opportunity to stay away from others until there are robust levels of testing/tracing, declining new cases and reduced strain on the health care system.

            Opening up before there are sustained 'R' values <1, will make it that much harder to protect those who are vulnerable (age, underlying conditions, risk of pediatric multi-system inflammatory syndrome [chla.org], etc.) to adverse outcomes from the virus.

            I'd note that nowhere in my post did I use the words "prevent" or "vaccine". Not sure whose post you got that from.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @08:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @08:12PM (#993462)

          You have no right to not be unintentionally infected by a disease. You do have a First Amendment right to exercise religion and peaceably assemble.

          There will be no death sentences for your fake right unless you plan on carrying them out yourself. Do you live in a Second Amendment friendly state?

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday May 11 2020, @03:56PM

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @03:56PM (#992891) Journal

        Anything it too broad a term. Quarantines and contact tracing should certainly be on the list though, and probably travel restrictions. Segmenting the population into sectors that couldn't be traveled between without testing, fumigating goods that need to travel between sections (ethyl alcohol would be useful for that), delaying goods that couldn't be properly disinfected (one week should be enough), etc. would be reasonable, but quite difficult to implement.

        But *if* you could do that, you could start combining areas that were clear, and subdividing areas that had cases. And there should be an immediate quarantine of all arriving people at the site of arrival. Each cluster (vehicle contents) of people should be held separately and tested after two days, and again after another two days. Any that were clean could be allowed in. Any cluster that was not clean should be quarantined until clean.

        But though this is what should have been done, the practical problems are possibly insurmountable in a short time. That's a whole lot of separated quarantine areas to manage, to set up, to keep supplied, etc. If it could have been done, though, it would have quashed the epidemic extremely quickly. Lock down as a compromise. It wasn't nearly as good, it had to last longer, but it was relatively easy to do.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Monday May 11 2020, @08:10PM (1 child)

        by ChrisMaple (6964) on Monday May 11 2020, @08:10PM (#993043)

        What matters is keeping the R value below 1 [msn.com]
        Anything you do to make that happen is probably worth it.

        There are so many things that could be done to keep the R value for COVID below 1. Infect everybody with rabies. Nuke the whole country. Shoot anyone who ventures outside.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @03:20AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @03:20AM (#993221)

          Oh noes constrained optimization!!1 Fuck I can't cope - give "the market" free rein.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:27PM (14 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:27PM (#992773)

      let's take the riskier path (and let the God sort out the dead)

      So I'm young and healthy. I start my day with strength exercises, yoga, and vegetable juice. I'm not invincible, granted.

      The old men, their wives (who willingly decide to be their husband's property), and their sky daddy say we're a bunch of pussies and being exposed to a disease which, without advanced medical care, has a high fatality rate... especially among the old men and their wives, in countries where the healthcare system is understaffed and under-equipped after decades of austerity... that this builds character. Failure to reopen they say is another sign of our decadence, necessitating anti-liberal, anti-socialist, and anti-conservative action.

      High fatality rate especially among the old men and their wives [businessinsider.com] (old Feb article only for cite, nothing new there).... Maybe they're on to something.

      I try to remember that we are all connected. All life is valuable, even the humans. Or the usual hippie shit I tell myself. But lately all I can think is, "let them die [youtube.com]."

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @12:42PM (#992780)

        But lately all I can think is, "let them die [youtube.com]."

        Righto, yet another one that cites Captain Whatever.
        Well, how about you start citing the real one [everythingzoomer.com] - let him die too, heh?

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:42PM (7 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:42PM (#992837) Journal
        Cool story, bro, but c0lo is in his own little world at present. Perhaps we ought to discuss facts or something? My take is that a lot of "non-essential" businesses can reopen without massively spreading covid or killing people, if they do common sense things like said social distancing, PPE, and extra protection/isolation for employees or customers in the high risk older brackets. But rather than discuss that, we seem to be in this weird shutdown or nothing dichotomy.
        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday May 11 2020, @04:02PM (2 children)

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:02PM (#992894) Journal

          Shutdown was a simple thing that could be done quickly. Reopening carefully takes planning. And many people are already unwilling the be sensible. Add to that politicians trying to figure the best path for *them* to take. And police being unreasonable in public (possibly because they were given a set of inflexible rules that didn't reasonably fit every situation, but possibly just to exert power and prejudice...I'm sure both are happening).

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @07:47PM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @07:47PM (#993022) Journal

            Reopening carefully takes planning.

            How about we start with that?

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:05PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:05PM (#993134)

              Reopening carefully takes planning.

              How about we start with that?

              Where I live, that's what we're doing. If that's not being done where you are, perhaps your should reconsider who your elected representatives might be.

              As for the Federal government, unless it benefits Donald J. Trump directly, either financially or politically, we're gonna get nothing. Because Donald J. Trump is all about Donald J. Trump. Anything else is just a distraction to be ignored.

        • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @09:13PM (1 child)

          by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @09:13PM (#993081) Journal

          "can be reopened" - under what conditions can you ensure no one else dies?

          --
          "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @10:08PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @10:08PM (#993107) Journal

            under what conditions can you ensure no one else dies?

            Can't think of any unless somebody's sky god cured covid overnight. But I can think of plenty of conditions where less people would collectively die. Let me reverse this question. How many people can die before it's not a good exchange for preventing one covid death? Economies do other things than merely spread covid around.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:00PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:00PM (#993129)

          My take is that a lot of "non-essential" businesses can reopen without massively spreading covid or killing people, if they do common sense things like said social distancing, PPE, and extra protection/isolation for employees or customers in the high risk older brackets. But rather than discuss that, we seem to be in this weird shutdown or nothing dichotomy.

          Thanks for sharing your expert opinion, Khallow. From where did you get your MD+Phd (Public Health)?

          No one is talking about "shutdown or nothing," except you.

          In fact, pretty much everyone is focused on getting *out of lockdown*.

          The difference is that some folks are saying "let's allow the science, data and public health experts to help us *plan* the process of opening back up as safely as possible;"
          While other folks are saying "OMG! OMG! The sky is falling! We're all gonna starve in the street in two weeks if we don't open up massage parlors!"
          While still others are saying "There is no such thing as Coronavirus. It's just *another* gub'mint power grab to weaken us so that when they come to take the men to put in those FEMA concentration camps, we won't be able to put up much of a fight. Then they're going to open the borders and let the 18,000,000 healthy, horny young muslim boys and men that line our border with Mexico in all at once with instructions to impregnate as many god-fearing Christian women and girls as they can, all while Sharia Law is implemented before our eyes."
          And still others are huddled in the corner mumbling incoherently.

          You appear to be one of the latter.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 12 2020, @03:37PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 12 2020, @03:37PM (#993356) Journal

            No one is talking about "shutdown or nothing," except you.

            I present c0lo's "riskier path" as a counterexample.

            Thanks for sharing your expert opinion, Khallow. From where did you get your MD+Phd (Public Health)?

            The information has been presented. I can assemble it as well as anyone.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Monday May 11 2020, @02:56PM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday May 11 2020, @02:56PM (#992845)

        While it does seem that at least some of these people have done this to themselves either directly or indirectly, the problems are that 1) not all older people believe the way you describe, and 2) this disease is affecting a lot of people in younger generations too.

        If we could isolate the people conforming to your generalization (the ones who don't believe in properly funding a healthcare system, who don't bother taking care of themselves, who vote for terrible policies which hurt everyone else), put them all into quarantine together, and let infect each other and suffer the consequences, I'd be all for it. After all, it's basically what they want, so why shouldn't they get what they want? But they also want to stay part of society and infect the rest of us, and then let us die due to a broken political and healthcare system that they helped engineer, and that's unacceptable.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday May 11 2020, @04:26PM (3 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:26PM (#992910) Journal

        So I'm young and healthy. I start my day with strength exercises, yoga, and vegetable juice. I'm not invincible, granted.

        The old men, their wives (who willingly decide to be their husband's property), and their sky daddy say we're a bunch of pussies

        I love to hear these things from a generation born into a world of technological wonders. The easiest life anyone has ever had. We eat like kings. The sheer variety of things in our salad bars comes from sources far and wide. Despite all the world's problems, we are still amazingly long lived and healthy compared to anyone more than 100 years ago.

        I'm not suggesting the world doesn't have problems. And that there aren't people (mostly politicians and some voters) who should be very rightfully blamed for those problems.

        It's also unfair of young and old people alike to draw sweeping generalizations about other generations. Every generation has had its problems. Wars. Depressions. Pandemics. Kings. The struggle to survive the winter.

        It's more fun to gripe about the world's problems, and they are many, compared to being thankful for what we do have. And a lot of that is the product of work from generations prior. (along with some of the accompanying problems)

        --
        To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug into other computer. Right-click paste.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @04:46PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @04:46PM (#992927)

          Swami Vishnu-devananda writing The Complete Illustrated Book of Yoga [wikipedia.org] in 1960 recommends vegetable juice, so vegetable juice was at least around in the 1960s when yoga was apparently invented from whole cloth....

          What year do you have for the invention of sit-ups and push-ups? Some time in the 80s maybe?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @02:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @02:33PM (#993329)

          Despite all the world's problems, we are still amazingly long lived and healthy compared to anyone more than 100 years ago.

          Got as many kids? See as much of your family? Own your own house? Have as secure a profession/career? Unionized? As much of a say in politics and economy? How's that pension looking?
          How is your grandchildren future looking (if any)?

          Enjoy all the iPhones and haribo sweets you like. Just don't call it wealth.

        • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday May 23 2020, @08:06PM

          by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Saturday May 23 2020, @08:06PM (#998232) Homepage Journal

          I'm an old man. (I'm 73; does that count as old?)
          I no longer have a wife. She died about a year ago, and she never was my possession.
          I do remember struggling to survive a winter; specifically, the Montreal-area ice-storm.
          Without a government-provided shelter my family might not have survived.

          I do not look to any sky-daddy to solve my problems.

          -- hendrik

    • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday May 11 2020, @04:15PM

      by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:15PM (#992901)
      Well that's the fun part, we are going to get to test both aspects. We did lockdown, now we will open up and take the summer off, then come fall, when the virus starts spreading in full force again, there's not going to be acceptance of another lockdown in most parts of the US, so I think we'll get to see what those "unmitigated" numbers actually come out to be as well.
    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:35PM (#993056)

      They do die from lack of medical help for the non-hyped diseases such as cancer or heart conditions. They do die from suicide having lost everything and no hope left. They do die from murder when someone near them went crazy from being cooped up for months, or from losing everything, or both. They are doing all this right now while you pontificate.
      They will be dying from hunger too, when the economy tanks to the point there'll be no food to give them. You can ignore this variable in your models all you wish; no one can do it for long in our reality.

      Not that I expect you demonstrate the common sense God gave an amoeba.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:18AM (21 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:18AM (#992713)

    Fergy and his team should be horsewhipped in public, on camera, as an example for crap "researchers". Open scourge software will discourage the next batch of frauds.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @08:22AM (15 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @08:22AM (#992714) Journal

      Fergy and his team should be horsewhipped in public, on camera

      If the software engineers know epidemiology so much better, why didn't they come with the magnificent trusty software.

      Someone have said it better: "“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:34AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:34AM (#992718)

        Do you know what your sin is? -The Operative

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by theluggage on Monday May 11 2020, @09:10AM

          by theluggage (1797) on Monday May 11 2020, @09:10AM (#992722)

          Hell, I'm a fan of all 7, but right now I'm gonna have to go with sloth.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by shrewdsheep on Monday May 11 2020, @09:02AM (9 children)

        by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday May 11 2020, @09:02AM (#992720)

        If the software engineers know epidemiology so much better, why didn't they come with the magnificent trusty software.

        That's a false dichotomy. While statistical models are often implemented very clumsily and are of poor code quality, they still need to be repeatable (see below). Quality evaluation through simulations is an accepted standard in the field. Code that has been "refined over a decade" is a ridiculous statement. It indicates gross negligence and I agree with the horsewhipping if the models really lack repeatability for analyses of such consequence.

        On a side-note: repeatability of statistical analyses does not imply numeric identity as often the algorithms are randomized. The analysis has to be repeatable within expected bounds and the width of bounds are controllable through a parameter (the size of the stochastic input). They have to be numerically identical for a fixed seed which I have no doubt the Ferguson model would be.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @09:27AM (8 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @09:27AM (#992724) Journal

          While statistical models are often implemented very clumsily and are of poor code quality, they still need to be repeatable (see below).

          And who is responsible for making sure it meets that requirement?
          I somehow don't think it's the responsibility of a researcher in a non-software dev position.

          If it wouldn't be for the corona pandemic, that model probably would just stayed there unused.
          If it were to be deemed essential, the "managers" would have needed to ensure the software is of quality - blaming a researcher in a field not related with software development for a bad software quality is beating a dead horse, it was not for him to write that code.

          ---

          Anecdote: until about 4 years ago, I has a stint with a cancer research institute, who had some money to some hire IT and software devs for their needs. One of the programs I needed to "normalize" was a spaghetti code for scheduling access to a set of equipment in short supply (daily lottery allocation with probability increasing proportionally for a still-active request with the number of lottery rounds it had lost in the past). It was written by a researcher some 10 years before and it was awful. Took me 6 months to come with a version that was maintainable, had pretty much the same "scheduling" functionality (except it used OO instead of "arrays corresponding to columns in the file") and was reorganized as a Web application (instead of consuming a CSV files in input an keeping the history in another CSV). And it was ported only for convenience (of the users) not because it was "business critical".

          Point: yes, I know how a code written by a non-specialist looks like. No, I cannot fault the original author for doing something when it was needed, even if how that something was put together in the most awful way. I can blame the ones that should have known better for not creating the conditions to be better.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday May 11 2020, @11:54AM (3 children)

            by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday May 11 2020, @11:54AM (#992756)

            I somehow don't think it's the responsibility of a researcher in a non-software dev position.

            Except that it is. Quite some journals have started to require the publication of code used in the analyses. Some journals go further by requiring the complete workflow producing the results in a paper number by number (and thereby require the data to be open as well). If an analysis is not reproducible how can any scientific study ever be trusted?
             

            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:08PM (2 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:08PM (#992768) Journal

              Except that it is. Quite some journals have started to require the publication of code used in the analyses.

              Publishing the code? Heck, yeah, together with the "User manual".
              Making sure the code is well engineered? I don't thinks so.

              If an analysis is not reproducible how can any scientific study ever be trusted?

              What if my method relied on a non-seedable RNG (like a radioisotope based one)? You have a problem with pure-random-based Monte Carlo modelling?
              If you run it 10000 times and you get the same mean+stddev results, that may be good enough to call it reproducible.

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday May 11 2020, @12:18PM (1 child)

                by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:18PM (#992772)

                Publishing the code? Heck, yeah, together with the "User manual".
                Making sure the code is well engineered? I don't thinks so.

                I was under the impression that you meant reproducibility. Just to clarify: reproducibility: yes, code quality: no (in terms of responsibility).

                What if my method relied on a non-seedable RNG (like a radioisotope based one)? You have a problem with pure-random-based Monte Carlo modelling?
                If you run it 10000 times and you get the same mean+stddev results, that may be good enough to call it reproducible.

                Please point out a single study where a non-deterministic RNG was used to run a statistical model. Your argument still holds that statistical means are necessary to decide on reproducibility (hopefully those means are not statistical themselves :-).

                • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:59PM

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:59PM (#992792) Journal

                  Please point out a single study where a non-deterministic RNG was used to run a statistical model.

                  Mate, statistical studies (based on counting numbers from RL) and Monte Carlo simulations/modelling are two different things, right?

                  When someone says to you "What it's doing is best described as SimCity without the graphics. It attempts to simulate households, schools, offices, people and their movements, etc. I won't go further into the underlying assumptions, since that's well explored elsewhere.", that's should be a clear sign of the second. Which means it's totally suited for RNG and the measure of reproducibility is only by average/stddev being similar.
                  A proper use of a seeded RNG may bring in more repeatability, but is not a strong requirement for reproducibility. Be it for the fact that I might get the idea of compiling the code on two different OS platforms with different HW and different RNG which will generated different sequences of pseudo-randoms. So that you need to fall back on "reproduced if both get the approx the same means/stddevs"

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by PiMuNu on Monday May 11 2020, @12:28PM (1 child)

            by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:28PM (#992774)

            > reorganized as a Web application

            I thought you were supposed to be improving the code?

            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:38PM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @12:38PM (#992779) Journal

              The business logic, yes.
              (for anything else, there's Javascript - very large grin)

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @02:54PM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @02:54PM (#992843) Journal

            And who is responsible for making sure it meets that requirement? I somehow don't think it's the responsibility of a researcher in a non-software dev position.

            If they're developing software that gets used in the real world, then they're by default at least partially a software dev position. I think there's more wrong with the other big statement:

            Code that has been "refined over a decade" is a ridiculous statement. It indicates gross negligence and I agree with the horsewhipping if the models really lack repeatability for analyses of such consequence.

            Code gets refined all the time. That's not a problem because code is almost never perfect. Now, if the code changes from time to time after its adoption as a policy steering tool without any sort of versioning control and identification, then that's a problem. Because you then have no idea which version of the software you're using.

            • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday May 11 2020, @04:33PM

              by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday May 11 2020, @04:33PM (#992918)

              "refined over a decade"

              I indeed forgot to elaborate on my thought process. Indeed the code was refined. However, I read this totally different as in: We have published 10 papers using this code in high ranking journals of the years. That proves the quality of the model. Which it does not.

              Reality most likely differs: the code was handed down through several generations of PhD students each modifying the existing code to produce a new paper. Mr. Ferguson has probably never looked at the code and could not modify it himself. While I might be doing injustice to him, the statement about the refinement alone has instilled doubt. A proper statement would have been: We have shown through simulations that our model has the expected statistical properties for realistic scenarios and sample sizes. Specifically, we have conducted simulations that show that our model can properly capture scenarios modeled after the current Covid pandemic.

      • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Monday May 11 2020, @12:55PM (2 children)

        by crafoo (6639) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:55PM (#992791)

        His track record is public and quite pathetic and shameful. That alone makes your comment ridiculous. We should all be throwing stones. The fact that the model is not even open for review and it was used to set public policy, is in my opinion, criminal.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @01:17PM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @01:17PM (#992796) Journal

          We should all be throwing stones.

          Well, I won't, thank you very much.

          His track record is public and quite pathetic and shameful.

          Can you show yours? Does it have any record in it? Or it's just a CV?

          The fact that the model is not even open for review

          Really? Then how come we're commenting on a story about reviewing that code?

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by ChrisMaple on Monday May 11 2020, @08:01PM

            by ChrisMaple (6964) on Monday May 11 2020, @08:01PM (#993035)

            Really? Then how come we're commenting on a story about reviewing that code?

            We're not. We're commenting on a story about code which they specially modified for public release.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by zocalo on Monday May 11 2020, @10:48AM (3 children)

      by zocalo (302) on Monday May 11 2020, @10:48AM (#992739)
      Lame troll, but still it's a popular view that he did wrong here, so - really? He supposedly wrote some poorly commented and crude code in a hurry (or not, the core code may also be the result of several years of "pet project" work) because a scientific model was needed *RIGHT THE FUCK NOW* to enable a government to try make an informed decision based on a very limited amount of data that included a lot of assumptions and guess work. Code and dataset refinements can (and did) happen later as more information became available, just as with any other model, or coding project. By that rationale just about every single software developer in the entire world should be horse-whipped through the streets on a regular basis (OK, some of them would probably actually deserve it.)

      This might be embarrassing for those involved, but it's really a non-story that's been blown out of all proportion by those looking to push one of the following two agendas:

      * He's male and having an affair. HOW DARE HE! (We'll gloss over the fact that his mistress turned up at *his* house, so was also looking for some extra-marital sex; presumably that's just her being "empowered" or some such).
      * Lockdown bad, must restart economy - and tough luck on those who are unfortunate enough to get the short end of the shitty-stick and suffer health problems, maybe even die, or have that happen to their loved ones. How very Utilitarian / foreign government looking to gain an advantage.

      If you actually do feel like that, then the code is on GitHub. Can I suggest that you have at it, STFU, or both?
      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
      • (Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Monday May 11 2020, @08:15PM

        by ChrisMaple (6964) on Monday May 11 2020, @08:15PM (#993045)

        He has a history of making panic-inducing projections, worse even than Paul Ehrlich of "Population Bomb" infamy. Nothing he communicates should be trusted.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @05:45PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 12 2020, @05:45PM (#993413)

        He's male and having an affair.

        The media reported him as having an affair.
        Whether he was or not is less important than the reasons for the reporting.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 13 2020, @02:46AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 13 2020, @02:46AM (#993600)

        Lots of other countries (especially in Asia) didn't need some shit model to stop thousands of people from dying.

        Did Korea need that shit model? They had a big outbreak, they took action. They got it under control.
        Taiwan also had a recent screw up with 700 sailors, they still seem to have it under control. And it's not like China is better friends with Taiwan than the USA so that China would have given Taiwan better advice.

        On a vaguely related note: https://medium.com/@indica/in-the-nytimes-only-white-leaders-stand-out-3e2c175245f8 [medium.com]

    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday May 11 2020, @04:10PM

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:10PM (#992899) Journal

      Without having looked at the code, I'm going to assume that the code did factor analysis using floating point variables. This will produce different answers depending on the rounding of floating point operations. (It could also happen that there's an undetected overflow, but I'll assume not. It's not needed to explain the claimed results.)

      That said, it also seems to be a very simplified model. This is hardly surprising. I've done transportation modeling, and the models were ALWAYS oversimplified. It can't be any other way. 15,000 lines of C++ code isn't enough to model everything, and a decade isn't enough time to build a detailed model. Then you get the question of where you're going to get the data to feed into it. Most diseases don't have a huge number of asymptomatic carriers, so there's no way that would be included in the model ahead of time, to pick just one example.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:31AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @08:31AM (#992717)

    ## my software is such shit I can't decide whether to read it left to right or bottom to top or random spirals from the center

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday May 11 2020, @04:28PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:28PM (#992913) Journal

      You just don't have a gooder enough compiler.

      --
      To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug into other computer. Right-click paste.
    • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday May 23 2020, @08:19PM

      by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Saturday May 23 2020, @08:19PM (#998234) Homepage Journal

      If you wrote it top to bottom left to right you should read it left to right bottom to top.
      You'll see typos you didn't see before.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by theluggage on Monday May 11 2020, @09:08AM (2 children)

    by theluggage (1797) on Monday May 11 2020, @09:08AM (#992721)

    So let's see the predictions from the Haskell code written using formal methods and test-driven development and the One True Brace Style... What's that? You need 3 years and an 8-figure budget to develop that? No probs, we'll just ask the coronavirus to put itself on hold until you're done. It's not like we needed to know last March or anything...

    Is the chilling truth that the decision to impose lockdown was based on crude mathematical guesswork?

    Of course it was - because the alternative would be "fingers crossed" and hoping that those guesses were wrong because the alternative might lose you some money.

    The media, of course, concentrated on the 'OMG xxx million total deaths' figure, but the core point of the report was that the peak number of hospitalisations was something like 8x the (then) number of available beds - even if that peak had been horribly over-estimated it would still have completely swamped the health services (indirectly causing a lot more deaths).

    Then, of course, the "herd immunity" theory depends entirely on the even cruder guess (fingers and toes crossed) that catching the virus leaves you with long-term immunity and that an effective vaccine is therefore possible... Something else we'll only know with hindsight.

    • (Score: 2) by driverless on Monday May 11 2020, @02:17PM (1 child)

      by driverless (4770) on Monday May 11 2020, @02:17PM (#992823)

      This revised codebase is split into multiple files for legibility and written in C++, whereas the original program was "a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade"

      In other words it's completely standard academic-grade code. The only thing that's surprising is that it wasn't written in FORTRAN.

      • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday May 11 2020, @05:58PM

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday May 11 2020, @05:58PM (#992970)

        If you read the Imperial paper, it was obvious that they were peddling total guesses. They did go into (a few) details about the model, for example mentioning that they guessed the so-called R0. It was clear the errors were huge to anyone who has done this sort of thing before.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @10:22AM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @10:22AM (#992729)

    this topic should be computationally alive sice at least the 60'ies...
    there should be a number of software packages several decennia old, threaded and optimised for this purpose...

    people who study fire safety do not have to suddenly implement FEM software, that shit exists since long ago and by multiple vendors...

    honestly, i do not even understgand what i am reading...

    -zug

    • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @10:38AM (8 children)

      by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @10:38AM (#992737) Journal

      funding priorities.

      Like with wildfires - here: 2018 [sacbee.com] vs 2019 [ca.gov]
      No money before nasty fires, $50 million after fires.
      Research? continuity of funding?

      There are many stories of countries reducing funding of pandemic studies (in particular corona viruses), fire beahviour, fire fuel loads, fire prevention, disease prevention - because, while high risk, they aren't 'right now' (until, well, they are), so, during elections, they don't get you elected, and after elections, well, there are better things on which to spend money

      --
      "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday May 11 2020, @11:09AM (3 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @11:09AM (#992743) Journal

        Like with wildfires - here: 2018 [sacbee.com] vs 2019 [ca.gov]

        Like trying to cut 16% from the CDC budget in Feb [snopes.com] fully knowing that Covid is able to kill.

        because, while high risk, they aren't 'right now'

        Because, see, it may be now, but is not here. Or because Obama was the devil incarnate or somethin'.
        And now that is here, it must be someone else fault, because it's an electoral year and if I'm at fault I'm screwed.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @03:01PM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @03:01PM (#992849) Journal

          Like trying to cut 16% from the CDC budget in Feb fully knowing that Covid is able to kill.

          Why is that supposed to matter? A read of your link would have noted the following:

          The budget request would trim funding for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention by almost 16 percent. HHS officials said they want the CDC to focus on its core mission of preventing and controlling infectious diseases and on other emerging public health issues, such as opioid abuse.

          Officials propose to take the money that would normally go to fund individual disease prevention activities and funnel it into a single block grant to states. The budget says chronic diseases such as heart disease, stroke and diabetes have common risk factors, and thus consolidating funds “can help magnify the public health impact.”

          Although the budget reduces overall funding for global health, from $571 million to $532 million in 2021, officials carved out an extra $50 million for global health security, which are measures aimed at disease detection and emergencies. That bump comes at the expense of international HIV/AIDS programs, which is being cut by about $58 million.

          I'd drop the opioid abuse part too since that's not infectious disease either. Legalizing opioid abuse would more greatly reduce the health consequences of it while saving everyone a significant amount of money.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday May 11 2020, @04:21PM (1 child)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @04:21PM (#992906) Journal

            I'd drop the opioid abuse part too since that's not infectious disease either. Legalizing opioid abuse would more greatly reduce the health consequences of it while saving everyone a significant amount of money.

            No. It would save money, but it wouldn't reduce the health consequences. At least not if we're talking about diverted pharmaceutical grade opiates, which I understand to be the current problem.

            That said, I'm all in favor of allowing opiates to be sold on the open market, but not to be combined with other drugs. And not to be used on infants or youths without a doctors prescription. So no opiate laced teething syrup, etc. And I don't want it to be legal to advertise them. If people go looking for them, then it should be their lookout, but don't shove it in their face.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 11 2020, @07:49PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 11 2020, @07:49PM (#993024) Journal

              No. It would save money, but it wouldn't reduce the health consequences. At least not if we're talking about diverted pharmaceutical grade opiates, which I understand to be the current problem.

              Like going to prison for a few years for possession? That's a health consequence.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:15AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @11:15AM (#992746)

        yes, i understand this.
        the question is, for a professional working with this, there must be graph theoretic models awailable of the UK.

        what i ask is: why is this guy doing something in an efternoon when there must be at least 20-30 PHD and diploma works on computational models of virus spread?

        • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday May 11 2020, @11:25AM

          by MostCynical (2589) on Monday May 11 2020, @11:25AM (#992748) Journal

          if there are, they know each other, or their supervisors know each other. Chances are they've all read each other's papers.

          Also, published, peer reviewed researcher vs unpublished, un-reviewed doctoral students, (possibly a few post-doctoral students)

          gravitas and connections also help.

             

          --
          "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Monday May 11 2020, @12:35PM (1 child)

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday May 11 2020, @12:35PM (#992778)

        > funding priorities.

        As a research scientist, I completely disagree.

        Research prioritises *new* results. It's like business startups on steroids. There is no reason to put research $ into verifying old code, because it will, at best, generate a second rate publication.

        Now mix in the fact that the senior people are typically clinical specialists - i.e. they don't know a left click from a right one. So, let's say a dedicated junior guy wants to take 6 months to clean up the code, and take the hit to their career because they aren't writing new code. How can they justify that to their boss? Especially when there is some other snark next door (the original code author) who is telling their boss that the code is fine and doesn't need any work, and publishing lots of sparkly new results.

        What tends to happen next, as with those unicorns, is that technical debt starts to accumulate, it becomes impossible to add new features and eventually the code gets cleaned up - but only if it continues to need new features.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @01:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 11 2020, @01:30PM (#992800)

          Research prioritises *new* results. It's like business startups on steroids. There is no reason to put research $ into verifying old code, because it will, at best, generate a second rate publication.

          Also, no professional developer writes the old code anyway. The purpose of the code is to provide some results of the hypothesis. Corner cases were never important.

          The entire analysis about "some inputs makes outputs bad" is irrelevant to the discussion. The purpose of shitting on the quality of the model is to say that scientists know nothing about how virus is spread and that is further from the truth. And blaming a model for a "lockdown" is even more irresponsible. The purpose of lockdown is to stop transmission chains. And the more irresponsible you act, the more likely there will be another and another and another lockdown down the road.

          China had NO stochastic models for this but they have shown that limiting human movement can stop the disease. Everywhere around the world we see what happens when people ignore this lesson. Ignore the result at your own peril.

          PS. I've fixed scientists-written code in the past. It's all a fucking mess. But then I work at enterprise code now, which is not much better.

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