Just a reminder of Amazing Astronomical Discoveries from Ancient Greece.
The Histories by Herodotus (484BC to 425BC) offers a remarkable window into the world as it was known to the ancient Greeks in the mid fifth century BC. Almost as interesting as what they knew, however, is what they did not know. This sets the baseline for the remarkable advances in their understanding over the next few centuries – simply relying on what they could observe with their own eyes.
Herodotus claimed that Africa was surrounded almost entirely by sea. How did he know this? He recounts the story of Phoenician sailors who were dispatched by King Neco II of Egypt (about 600BC), to sail around continental Africa, in a clockwise fashion, starting in the Red Sea. This story, if true, recounts the earliest known circumnavigation of Africa, but also contains an interesting insight into the astronomical knowledge of the ancient world.
The voyage took several years. Having rounded the southern tip of Africa, and following a westerly course, the sailors observed the Sun as being on their right hand side, above the northern horizon. This observation simply did not make sense at the time because they didn't yet know that the Earth has a spherical shape, and that there is a southern hemisphere.
[...] Sadly, the vast majority of these works were lost to history and our scientific awakening was delayed by millennia. As a tool for introducing scientific measurement, the techniques of Eratosthenes are relatively easy to perform and require no special equipment, allowing those just beginning their interest in science to understand by doing, experimenting and, ultimately, following in the foot steps some of the first scientists.
One can but speculate where our civilisation might be now if this ancient science had continued unabated.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday May 22 2020, @06:51PM (3 children)
They decided that the power of obstruction is much more profitable than progress.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 22 2020, @11:20PM (2 children)
Naw, that's just you, Fusty.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @12:09AM (1 child)
ac here, thanks mod for the +1 insightful...but i was really just being snarky and looking for a laugh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @01:19AM
It's funny because it's true. [youtube.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 22 2020, @07:53PM (11 children)
Yep. People, and espacially navigators, had already figured out that the Earth was a sphere centuries ago.
But in the 21st century, there are still morons who believe it is flat. I guess you just can't fix stupid.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Snotnose on Friday May 22 2020, @08:48PM (1 child)
Sure you can. Just let them have their large gatherings without face masks and, when they get sick, tell them the hospitals are full.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 22 2020, @09:01PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but the covid-19 mortality rate is way under 10% (even without any hospital support), so that will barely make a dent in any such community.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Saturday May 23 2020, @02:22AM (7 children)
I seriously doubt they really believe it's flat. I think they just enjoy the attention, and screwing with people who react.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @05:54AM (6 children)
There are a bunch of Flat-Earthers over on Gab. At least a few appear to be sincere. But it probably falls into the same bucket as most conspiracy theories: as one shrink put it, this is how mild schizophrenics make sense of a (to them) inexplicable world.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:19PM (5 children)
If they really believe it, it would be interesting to psychoanalyze them. Something's cross-wired!
I know at least one guy who claims to be a flat-earther, but knowing him somewhat, I don't take him too seriously. I think he just likes to mess with people, and he loves the challenge of keeping a straight face. I do that a little, but only in the moment, and I can only keep a straight face for a few seconds.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:16PM (4 children)
Same bucket as "we didn't really go to the moon" and "da Jooz did it". Wish I could find the article again; a shrink explained it very simply, and considering the conspiracy theorists I've known, it's a perfect fit.
Yeah, I'm sure some are just enjoying themselves... my favorite flat-earther, I'm not sure if is sincere or a very skilled troll (but he's always pleasant even to nonbelievers, so I sometimes discuss it with him). I have my own little straight-face exercise in telling a whopper, and it's funny how many people actually believe me. :D
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @05:20PM (3 children)
My favorite reaction is kids: they have the most wonderful look of bewilderment, that melts into a big "nu-uh!" Then if I know them well enough I might get hit, which just makes it all the more worth it. :)
One I remember from long ago: a girlfriend's younger sister, 13 maybe?, asked how do I shave my chin, which is slightly cleft. I told her they make special V-shaped razors and she was hook-line-and-sinker for many wonderful seconds. :)
(Score: 3, Funny) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:22PM (2 children)
LOL, good one :)
Mine: I buy dog food by the pallet. Every so often some wit will remark, "Big dog, eh?" and with a straight face, I respond, "Elephant."
It's amazing how many believe me: "I didn't know elephants ate dog food!"
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday May 29 2020, @03:05AM (1 child)
That's awesome- I'm literally laughing out loud. Hope no-one hears me- I hate splaining.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday May 29 2020, @03:23AM
Time to practice your Straight Face. :D
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @07:13PM
Actually, the same ancient Greeks mentioned in TFS/TFA recognized this some 2,100+ years ago [wikipedia.org].
Although I imagine, that just as today, some folks were loudly skeptical of the idea. Which just goes to show that, throughout human history, some folks aren't so bright.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 22 2020, @09:48PM (3 children)
"One can but speculate where our civilization might be now if this ancient science had continued unabated"
"Sadly, the vast majority of these works were lost to history ..." this sounds like a good plot for a detective story of ancient going-ons?
one scene that springs to mind is hoarding said knowledge in form of books in not fire-proof libraries and poisoning pages of books containing "forbidden knowledge"?
"when the general was asked if the limited firebombs should be used on the east or west side of the besieged city, the decision came down to bomb the west side, since it only contained a worthless library but the east side was the red light district of the besieged city and the general knew that most of his men were .. well men and not book worms..."
(Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Saturday May 23 2020, @01:27AM (2 children)
Not wrong. Once again, consult the original submission, where I blame the Romans.
Not only did they burn the Library of Alexandria [wikipedia.org], but sort of set the precedent:
Meanwhile, in India, the Buddhist Library at Nalanda [wikipedia.org] was also burned by invading forces:
And, Look! Wikipedia has a list of destroyed libraries, [wikipedia.org] throughout history, and not all of them accidental.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday May 23 2020, @06:18AM (1 child)
There are lots of different stories about how the collection of the library at Alexandria was lost, or sometimes not lost but just dispersed to other libraries in the area over a long period of decline. It happened during Roman times, by about the third or fourth century it was gone, which would have made it quite a feat for a Muslim army to destroy unless they were equipped with time machines.
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Saturday May 23 2020, @08:42AM
Yes, but some of us were there.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 22 2020, @11:37PM
We might well have travelled to Alpha Centauri by now if Man had not learned to lick his own balls.
Oh, no, sorry. That was dogs.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @12:20AM
You can hold a telescope in one hand and souvlaki in the other... opa!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @01:32AM
1. Self-driving cars that deliver souvlaki right to your door
2. Mobile communicators that you can use to order souvlaki anytime
3. Genetically modified sheep yielding four times the amount of souvlaki that their wild ancestors did.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @02:12AM (6 children)
Nearly every city in the Eastern Mediterranean, and therefore every center of learning, was destroyed by a series of wars [explorethemed.com] around 1200BC. There is evidence that transatlantic trade networks existed before then. Traces of cocaine and tobacco have been found in Egyptian mummies [ancient-origins.net], and somebody was mining a large amount of copper in Michigan [grahamhancock.com] from 2400 BC until... 1200 BC, when the trans-Atlantic market would have collapsed and also when iron weapons were introduced by the Hittites.
The Michigan copper had also been mined during an earlier period from 4500BC - 3500BC [eos.org], which suggests that somebody remembered this location in a thousand-year-old legend and went back to find it.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday May 23 2020, @05:08AM (2 children)
Even if true, there are other plants that produce cocaine. For example, a quick google found that the genus Erythroxylum (~200 tropical flowering plants, including the coca bush) is spread worldwide with species in South America, Madagascar, India, Australia, and Yemen. Erythroxylum socotranum is an endangered species [earthsendangered.com] from Yemen. I was unable to determine whether the plant produces cocaine in detectable amounts, but it's part of a genus that has a number of cocaine-producing plants and it's pretty close to Egypt.
Similarly, nicotine appears in other plants as well:
Eggplant, for example, is thought to have originated in India or Africa. So just on this first link, we have alternate possible sources for cocaine and nicotine that don't require global trade.
The links about mining copper don't tell us anything because copper would be mined anyway, whether or not there was trade with the Old World. But what is telling is a number of missing things: the complete absence of any goods from the Old World, a similar absence of diseases from the Old World, no existence of copper in a transportable form such as oxhide ingots [wikipedia.org], and no shipwrecks.
Here's the claim that supposes a substantial source of copper to have come from the New World:
However, the abstract for the actual research [uchicago.edu] in question ("On the Structure and Composition of Copper and Tin Ingots Excavated from the Shipwreck of Uluburun" by Andreas Hauptmann, Robert Maddin, and Michael Prange):
So it turns out that the metal was remelt from copper smelting, contrary to the earlier claim.
So sorry, but none of your links support your assertion that there was any sort of global trade with the New World. It really bears remarking here that boat technology of the time in the eastern Mediterranean just didn't have the range to go to the New World. For example, you would need boats with high cargo to crew ratios - that means few or no rowers, good stability in deep ocean weather, and good sail configurations (since most of the speed would have to come from sails). You'd also need good navigation skills on deep ocean since you could go weeks without seeing land - it's notable that the ships of the time were typically operated near land. It's far from impossible since the Austronesian had similar technology, but were able to sail all over the South Pacific, even in 1200 BC.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @05:40AM (1 child)
Khallow in his natural element! Offering obvious rebuttals to an Atlantean!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday May 23 2020, @07:55PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @11:55AM (2 children)
Copper wasn't mined in the Keweenaw Peninsula until colonization. Rather, the area is so rich in it, they would just pick up a blue rock and polish it.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday May 23 2020, @07:53PM (1 child)
The significant of Keweenaw copper is that it is native copper [wikipedia.org]. It's not a blue rock that you'd have to smelt to get the copper out. It's (nearly) pure copper just waiting for someone to pick it up. If you had read the linked studies, you would see that they determining mining happened because of the significant spiking of lead in lake sediment. Only known cause in that part of the world is human mining of the copper.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 25 2020, @03:00AM
Mining the copper would be stupid though, because it was already on the surface, everywhere. You can still find copper up there just walking. They also didn't smelt metals at all, unless that technology was somehow lost and yet never shows up at all in the archaeological record, which clearly shows trade of that same copper across the US.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 23 2020, @03:06AM
And all was paused in the name of all mighty