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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:54PM   Printer-friendly
from the end-of-the-universe dept.

CERN Council endorses building larger supercollider:

The CERN Council has unanimously endorsed the idea of building a newer, larger circular supercollider, dubbed the Future Circular Collider (FCC). The group made the announcement on June 19. The move is the first step toward building a 100 TeV 100-kilometer circumference collider around Geneva. As part of the vote, the group approved the launch of a technical and financial feasibility study for the new collider.

[...] The approval by the CERN council was not an official go-ahead for the project—it was a go-ahead to look into its feasibility. The next step will involve figuring out where to dig the new tunnel and whether it will be possible to do so in the area near the LHC. If the feasibility study and financial estimates work out as hoped, the next step would be actual approval for the project to move forward. Once that happens, the funds for the project would have to be made available by participating countries in Europe and the U.K.—and this time, perhaps, from other countries such as the U.S., China or Japan. Also, research efforts would have to be developed and launched to design and build the hardware needed for the project.

More at CERN : https://home.cern/science/accelerators/future-circular-collider

At this point the only construction CERN has endorsed is for the creation of a powerpoint and maybe a spreadsheet.


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by PiMuNu on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:04PM

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:04PM (#1011987)

    It's a really tough time for particle physics... FCC cost is looking like 30 GEur and it might not be built. It's not at all clear that FCC will be approved by the funding agencies...

    > Europe and the UK

    ps: Note UK is still in Europe, just not the European Union. Switzerland, where most of FCC would be physically situated, is also not in the European Union!

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:05PM (8 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:05PM (#1011989) Journal

    funds for the project would have to be made available by participating countries in Europe and the U.K.—and this time, perhaps, from other countries such as the U.S

    Hilarious! Best laugh of the day!

    I have a difficult time seeing the US investing in anything that is:
    * not going to show a profit THIS quarter
    * has anything to do with this science stuff, but not focused on an actual product
    * likely to give even more credibility to eviloution
    * obviously inferior to something that the US could do alone but bigger, better and more corruptly

    "Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?" -Ronald Reagan

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:44PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:44PM (#1012012)

      But more importantly, how does this sell smart phones? It could serve up live updates and alerts via an app that collects user data. Perhaps it could be remote controlled exclusively using the newest smart phone models. It has to be monetized somehow. It it doesn't involved smart phones somehow, then it is just obsolete old tech that has no reason to exist.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:13PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:13PM (#1012025) Journal

        1. Collect presidential tweets
        2. Accelerate them to nearly the speed of light in opposite directions
        3. Collide them within a detector (like smashing two swiss watches together to see what comes flying out)
        4. ???
        5. Prophet

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:55PM (4 children)

      by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:55PM (#1012050)

      You do know that US already supported LHC, contributing several key components? And that CERN is supporting DUNE, the next big US high energy physics project?

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:25PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:25PM (#1012085) Journal

        You do know that US already supported LHC, contributing several key components?

        Yes.

        I think the US political apparatus was a bit more sane.

        And that CERN is supporting DUNE, the next big US high energy physics project?

        No. Didn't know.

        That's a good thing. I think. Assuming Trump doesn't eliminate DUNE.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday June 24 2020, @10:00PM (2 children)

        by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @10:00PM (#1012173) Journal

        DUNE, the next big US high energy physics project

        Are they going to look for the Spice particle? :-)

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:51PM

          by PiMuNu (3823) on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:51PM (#1012399)

          Harkonnons

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:11PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:11PM (#1012403) Journal

          It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

          It is by the juice of caffeine the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.

          It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @04:27AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @04:27AM (#1012306)

      > "Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?" -Ronald Reagan

      An interesting research question but more humanities than science. So obviously not fundable.

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:09PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:09PM (#1011990)

    Make it a prototype test rig for the stupid "hyperloop"... now that's what I call a particle collider!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:05PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:05PM (#1012023)

      Had a similar idea -- once the tunnels are built, but before any equipment is installed, use the course for high speed record setting. Right now the Bloodhound has to run on specially groomed desert, but it could be a lot nicer to run in a tunnel without any possibility of crosswind or hitting some foreign object (pebble/bird/animal).

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:01PM (#1012099)

      Not a bad idea, just to aid construction :
      Darn, missing the #3 micro wrench!
      shit there goes 2 hours , 45km back to the control room And back

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:11PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:11PM (#1011992)

    >> The approval by the CERN council was not an official go-ahead for the project—it was a go-ahead to look into its feasibility

    And then they'll spend another two years deciding how many genders should be employed in its construction. This is why it will be years late and billions overbudget. OTOH, if Elon Musk decided to build a larger circular supercollider it would be finished by December and would then auto-publish its own scientific articles.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:19PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:19PM (#1012033)

      <sarcasm>I second this, because at this point in time, we know everything there is to ever know and our understand of the world is accurate, complete, and final. Performing ANY mental work that even remotely touches on even thinking about looking into things further should be punished, and even ridiculed, specifically using completely unrelated issues that I find hot-button because I feel insecure in my own identity. The parent post is spot on.</sarcasm>

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by pvanhoof on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:42PM (2 children)

      by pvanhoof (4638) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:42PM (#1012046) Homepage

      Maybe we could line up all the satellites he's putting into space and send the particles from one satellite to the other, at each satellite speeding it up, all around the globe?

      Big magnets in space. No?

      • (Score: 1) by gmby on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:34PM (1 child)

        by gmby (83) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:34PM (#1012113)

        Can second as a space shield for rocks and unwanted visitors coming our way. Maybe also a beam weapon to get ride of those free loaders orbiting OUR Sun! Blast them to pieces and feed them to the Sun!

        --
        Bye /. and thanks for all the fish.
        • (Score: 2) by pvanhoof on Wednesday June 24 2020, @09:08PM

          by pvanhoof (4638) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @09:08PM (#1012149) Homepage

          We'll also need sharks with lasers. Lasers of course, to optically line up the satellites. And sharks, because sharks are cool. And what else to mount the lasers on?

  • (Score: 2) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:32PM (4 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:32PM (#1012003)

    Because right now it's still kind of square, but we'll have it straightened out in no time at all.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:56PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:56PM (#1012016)

      The future collision is between a micro black hole and Earth.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:21PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:21PM (#1012036)

      Circling The Square again, are you?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:37PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:37PM (#1012045)

        > Circling The Square

        aka, casing the joint...

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:13PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:13PM (#1012405) Journal

        > Circling The Square again

        Circling The Square drain

        Which direction the square spiral spins depends on whether you are East or West of the prime meridian.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:15PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:15PM (#1012027)

    While not mentioned, this new proposal is a bit larger than the last one the USA tried--
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider [wikipedia.org]

    The Superconducting Super Collider (SSC) (also nicknamed the desertron) was a particle accelerator complex under construction in the vicinity of Waxahachie, Texas.

    Its planned ring circumference was 87.1 kilometers (54.1 mi) with an energy of 20 TeV per proton and was set to be the world's largest and most energetic. The project's director was Roy Schwitters, a physicist at the University of Texas at Austin. Dr. Louis Ianniello served as its first Project Director for 15 months. After 22.5 km (14 mi) of tunnel were bored and nearly two billion dollars were spent, the project was cancelled in 1993 due to budget problems.

    (article continues).

    The Wiki article includes a map, which shows that the plan was actually for an oval with two shorter straight sections connecting the two 180 deg turns.

    Maybe it would make more sense to join forces and resurrect the one in Texas? At one point they must have put in place agreements with all the land holders for underground rights, in USA that would be one of the first big hurdles to jump.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Mojibake Tengu on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:16PM (1 child)

    by Mojibake Tengu (8598) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:16PM (#1012030) Journal
    --
    Respect Authorities. Know your social status. Woke responsibly.
    • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:53PM

      by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:53PM (#1012049)

      I hope CPC-ee gets funded. At the moment I would say their design study is behind CERN's FCC study; they are basically designing the same facility.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:13PM (6 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:13PM (#1012078)

    It's a waste of money: sane arguments that predicted the LHC would see the Higgs say that this new collider would be too small to see new physics.
    Arguments based on wishful thinking (which predicted that the LHC would see many dimensions and superparticles and other fancy stuff) say that maybe there would be something new. Hint: there has been no sign of many dimensions or superparticles or other fancy stuff at the LHC, because wishful thinking is not science.

    In any case, Sabine said it much better than I can, and she actually knows the details: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/03/nonsense-arguments-for-building-bigger.html [blogspot.com]

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:00PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @07:00PM (#1012098)

      Wow, I lost 10 IQ points just reading the drivel you linked to. Seriously? A theoretical physicist not wanting to actually test and confirm her smart new ideas with tangible proof? Not actually get the proof but stay in the realm of "it could be or maybe not, we've never looked because spending money on these devices is too much money, just take my word that my predictions are correct". It looks like this theoretical scientist is still a bit too much locked in to the imagined battle of theoretical vs experimental physicists (and let me be clear: there is no such battle; good, productive, and effective T and E physicists have realized that they are two parts of the same body, that they need one another and are better of collaborating instead of fighting...)

      Talk about an antithesis to science...

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:11AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:11AM (#1012310)

        I don't think you understood the text I linked to.

        The point is that the standard model has already been confirmed by experiment, in its entirety. In order to confirm the standard model, theory was used to say what energy is needed for the accelerator required to observe each particle. Right now, that same theory says the 100 km accelerator will not see anything new.

        The people who claim that there is something to see even with just the 100 km accelerator are using different premises for their predictions, premises that have nothing to do with empirical facts.

        Sabine is saying that rather than wasting resources on the new accelerator, use those same finite resources for other experiments where sane approaches predict something will be seen.
        For instance make better observations of the sky, to figure out the darkmatter/darkenergy problems, the cosmological constant inconsistencies, etc.

        And no, you can't claim that there are enough resources to do both.
        As a society I'd say we first need resources to tackle climate change and address the loss of biodiversity. Otherwise we will have serious consequences within a lifetime (famine then wars). We're already seeing massive immigration, it's only going to get worse.

        Please take the time to think about these things carefully. Even if you are a particle physicist who's out of a job because the LHC is shutting down, you are not allowed to claim that scientific fact is decided by your aesthetical preference. if you do that, you are lying and misusing resources.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:25AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:25AM (#1012311)

        You must have read a different article.

        The argument is that there is no *good* reason for spending $20B on a bigger collider other than to see what happens. There's much better reasons to spend tax money - and no, not sending a human to fucking Mars. Jesus Christ.

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by shrewdsheep on Wednesday June 24 2020, @08:20PM

      by shrewdsheep (5215) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @08:20PM (#1012132)

      It is not wishful thinking, it is science politics.

      LHC Director: Guys, it seems we have run out of ideas. What to do next?
      "Manager": I have an idea. Let's do the same again, but bigger and more expensive.
      LHC Director: Does not make any sense. OTOH, would guarantee my retirement. During building I would travel on agency cost..., not having to work..., sound good. Let's do it.
      "Manager": Let's start by forming five committees, feasibility, location, gender blah, blah, feasibility and not to forget gender blah, blah
      LHC Director: That's the spirit.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @12:17AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @12:17AM (#1012212)

      I agree for the same price we can get a new stadium, and teach our kids what is important in life at the same time
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_stadiums [wikipedia.org]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @05:30AM (#1012312)

        Stadiums pay for themselves via the trickle down mechanism. Particle physics needs to get some of that action.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @03:35PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @03:35PM (#1012443)

    if all your points are in a plane then even having infinite points to study will never give you a hint that they're in a plane ... and methinks that's the fallacy of "big data".

    the "takeaway" of the quantum theory is of course that it is YOU acting on the universe.
    it is then up to you if you want to share the data. no amount of "collaboration" will reveal anything fundamental at this point...

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