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posted by Fnord666 on Tuesday June 30 2020, @12:23PM   Printer-friendly
from the we-don't-need-no-stinkin'-degree dept.

New Executive Order Fights Credential Inflation In The Federal Workforce:

On Friday, President Trump signed an executive order directing federal agencies to fill job vacancies based on merit, rather than require a minimum level of education for candidates seeking open positions. The order rightly recognizes that a job candidate with several years of relevant experience may be just as qualified, if not more so, than one who has collected a stack of advanced degrees.

"Employers adopting skills- and competency-based hiring recognize that an overreliance on college degrees excludes capable candidates and undermines labor-market efficiencies," the order reads. "Currently, for most Federal jobs, traditional education — high school, college, or graduate-level — rather than experiential learning is either an absolute requirement or the only path to consideration for candidates without many years of experience."

The order still allows federal agencies to prescribe minimum educational requirements for job candidates if the degree is legally required by the state or local government where the federal employee will be working. Additionally, they may consider a candidate's education if the degree "directly reflects the competencies necessary" to do the job.


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @12:38PM (41 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @12:38PM (#1014465)

    Most hiring managers these day refuse to even look at resumes if they are not decorated with certifications. It doesn't matter if you already have 9000 years experience in something or can sit down and quickly learn the system, they want those pretty certs. Even when the certification is not technically or legally required to to the job. The problem is, who has time or money these days to get these expensive certifications? So at the end of the day, the experienced person who knows what they are doing and can change the world, winds up working at Wal-Mart while some drooling half-assed Indian with fake certifications gets the job.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:07PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:07PM (#1014474)

      Did you know Einstein's major papers were published while he was working at a patent office as a low grade inspector? No university was willing to take him on board.

      People who are going to change the world will change the world in spite of adversity. Those who are not going to change the world will make every excuse for why that is, other than themselves.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:16PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:16PM (#1014520)

        Great so why bother - let's all roll in shit and wait for Einstein to fix it because he'll fix it anyway whether we roll around in shit or try to do a little bit better.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:28PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:28PM (#1014560)

          You don't get it do you? There's nothing wrong with the world - it's you. If you're not going to help yourself there is not a single person in this world that can help you. And for many people this is the exact scenario.

          We now live in a world where you can learn priceless trades online, for free. You can self publish software to an audience of millions online, for nearly free (publication fees on app stores or steam are generally about a day of minimum wage). And there are a million videos, forums, and other places where you can even get interactive aid and improve your own skills. Again - for free. Now a days even all the software you need to get all this going is, once again, free.

          But working is hard. It can take years of effort. By contrast, you can complain and whine and bitch and get all these little immediately rewarding little dopamine bursts from complaining on social media. So you keep going that route, and you probably will your entire life.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:34PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:34PM (#1014630)

            Bbut I read online that "People who are going to change the world will change the world in spite of adversity."

            So why bother fixing adversity?

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Gaaark on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:15PM (4 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:15PM (#1014552) Journal

        Did you know that Einstein, while working at the Government patent office, had PLENTY of time doing nothing and was thus able to spend time thinking?

        "The job at the Federal Office for Intellectual Property – Einstein referred to it tongue-in-cheek as his "cobbler's trade" – turned out to be stroke of good fortune because it was excellently paid (CHF 3500 per year) and was undemanding for his nimble intelligence. "
        ---https://www.ige.ch/en/about-us/the-history-of-the-ipi/einstein/einstein-at-the-patent-office.html

        How many jobs today, other than Government jobs, do people have time to just think?

        If he hadn't gotten that government job, would his theories ever have seen the light of day?

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:41PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:41PM (#1014567)

          Taking things completely out of context! Classy guy. Here let me continue your quote exactly where you left off:

          He spoke of the Federal Office for Intellectual Property as "that worldly cloister where I hatched my most beautiful ideas". With his courteousness and modesty and his humorous approach to life, Einstein was very well liked. On 1 April 1906, he was promoted to technical expert – class II. He managed his time exactly: eight hours of work, eight hours of «allotria» (miscellaneous) and scientific work, and eight hours of sleep (which he often used instead for writing his manuscripts). Much to the Federal Office for Intellectual Property's regret, he left in the autumn of 1909 to take over the chair in theoretical physics at the University of Zurich.

          And of course the top also mentions the rather strict working conditions Einstein was under due to a rigid boss. He worked hard at work, worked hard at home, and achieved awesome stuff in spite of extreme adversity. That adversity is also left out in that article (in part because it's a fluff piece from the patent office he worked at). He sought a position *anywhere* for a bit more than 2 years. Nobody wanted him. And now we have it about a million times easier than Einstein did in every single way.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:36PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:36PM (#1014633)

            That doesn't explain why you are stomping around scolding everybody like a little bitch.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:07AM (1 child)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:07AM (#1014884) Journal

              I don't read it as 'stomping around scolding everybody' - he is simply stating that many people feel that they are owed an easy life, which they are most certainly not.

              I see plenty of evidence of this. 'Influencers' on the internet who believe that they should receive preferential treatment or free goods because they are prepared to tell their followers that such-and-such a product or service is good. Businesses that believe that paper certificates in some way 'prove' a person's suitability for a job, rather than looking at what individuals are actually capable of and their track record. The list goes on.

              However there are some, perhaps even a majority, who are prepared to put some effort in and to produce something of value or useful to others, tangible or otherwise. Of course, with rising unemployment as a result of COVID-19 we are going to see people struggling more and more to find a basic job in their current skill field. Perhaps we need to start thinking outside the box a little more.

              The 'like a little bitch' is simply an ad hominem attack and not worthy of being part of this discussion.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:19PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:19PM (#1015005)

                > 'Influencers' on the internet who believe that they should receive preferential treatment or free goods because they are white and shiny / offspring of someone famous

                FTFY

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:11PM (25 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:11PM (#1014476)

      If someone doesn't have certificates it means they are likely not members of the upper or middle class, who are likely to have the right ideological thought their employers require. [amazon.co.uk]
      Those without may have skill, but are likely to be working class or lapsed middle classers, with too much independent thinking. Employers don't want that. It's a class and a political thing.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:23PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:23PM (#1014482)

        Be careful drinking too much Marx kool-aid. It'll go to your brain and make you proper retarded.

        Once you get out of your social critique classes and into the world you might learn an employer couldn't care less what you think, view, or whatever else. If you can do the job, do it well, and not otherwise damage the company or their product - you're hired. If you can't, you're not. What ideological bias does exist in hiring tends to be on the opposite end of the spectrum. A lot of companies, especially in California, have previously hired with a bias towards far left ideological thought.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:47PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:47PM (#1014494)

          Give GP a break since they were educated by SJW teachers. In a decade, when all these "woke" companies end up bankrupt, GP will realize that a degree in advanced gender studies doesn't count for much when you're applying to clean toilets at McDonalds.

          • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:11PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:11PM (#1014550)

            They're already headed this way. It's rather amusing watching the Silicon Valley companies engage in an extreme political bias in hiring filling their companies with rather radical leftists only to now find things like people earning 6 figures + extensive perks trying to unionize because 'fuck you we're entitled to more' or, equivalent, getting sued for arbitrary slight slights because 'boohoo i need a safe space' 24/7 365.

            This is really why I stated companies were previously hiring with such a bias. I'd be quite curious to see if Google starts to reverse their bias. Google, when you look at their behaviors as a company, cares about nobody except Google so the hiring on the far left was obviously some sort of strategic decision (maybe a play to buy democratic influence) but I expect they're seeing the cost has been much higher than the reward.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:21PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:21PM (#1014555)

              I expect they're seeing the cost has been much higher than the reward.

              They'll leave the true cost [city-journal.org] behind them.

            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:22PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:22PM (#1014557)

              Don't forget one of the co-founders has commie roots.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:26PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:26PM (#1015418)

                Those commie capitalists are the worst.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:24PM (17 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:24PM (#1014483) Journal

        When I went to school, I learned that the US, and the corporations, government, military, etc, was a meritocracy. That is, we got rid of the aristocracy, and made things so that the most capable could enjoy some "upward mobility". And, the least capable could enjoy some downward mobility.

        It seems that the meritocracy may be coming to an end.

        • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:59PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:59PM (#1014499)

          It seems that the meritocracy may be coming to an end.

          Yes. Even more a pity that it didn't actually started

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:11PM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:11PM (#1014577)

            Like many things, it does require you to open your eyes to see. Meritocracy doesn't mean everybody gets rich and lives happily ever after. It means we create a world where people can achieve things through their own means instead of being left to rely on the kindness of their lord, or government should we speak of a communist style system.

            And that does exist. Software, as always, is the most obvious example. You can learn to develop for free, you can get development software for free, you can publish your software to an audience of literally billions for nearly free. If you are capable of creating anything that even a *tiny* chunk of society would find of value, you can not only make it but *really* make it. And that is just one facet of life. There are ways to make it life for almost any given skill, especially in the era we currently live in. Hell, even 'skill' in whining about the lack of meritocracy is plenty to make a living - 'Capitalism sucks, blah blah blah, click here to give me money on Patreon for confirming your biases!'

            The thing is most people don't really want to work to achieve something. They want to just kind of exist and be paid for existing. That's not a meritocracy, that's not even communism, and damn sure not socialism - that's fantasyism.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:22AM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:22AM (#1014818)

              Meritocracy doesn't mean everybody gets rich

              Well, show me the big fortunes that were built on merit and not by scamming, exploiting others or damaging the property of others.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:32AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:32AM (#1014825)

                Exploitation is the primary merit you're scored on. If you're a great exploiter (a "leader"), you have merit. If you are exploitable, you lack merit. Businesses are run by businessmen, and exploitation is all they know.

                • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:58AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:58AM (#1014855)

                  Thanks for explaining exactly what the problem is. It is anti-meritocracy, but cloaked as if it is. Lying and ripping people off because you have enough of a hold on the market is NOT a good thing.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:29AM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:29AM (#1014879)

                Go look on Steam, or Apple, Google Play for the most obvious example. There are millions of pieces of software out there, and a lot of them find pretty reasonable markets - even if niche. Niche doesn't matter when you have literally billions of potential customers. Behind vast numbers of software you'll find there's one guy, maybe two. And those guys are now living *very* comfortably.

                Today in America 6.7% of households are millionaires. If you're thinking you might just assume that 'okay, this is probably California + New York which have huge populations and where millionaire has somewhat of a different connotation'. But that's not true. This [kiplinger.com] page lays out the wealth in the US per state. In 'poor' states the number of millionaires starts upwards of 4%. But I'd also emphasize that in those states just a couple hundred thousand is effectively rich.

                Vastly more people than ever before are 'making it', because it's far easier to make it than ever before. There have been never-ending media reports on the disappearing middle class, and that is 100% true. But the main reason it's disappearing is not because they're becoming poorer, as the media invariably implies, but the exact opposite. The main problem we have now a days is one of fertility. This [statista.com] is a graph of fertility in the US by income. People earning less than $10k per year, who are presumably living off the taxpayer, are having 50% more children per year than those earning more than $200k per year with a linear slide for incomes in between.

                A meritocracy notwithstanding, a kid growing up in a household where their parent(s) think it's a good idea to have a kid when they're earning $10k a year is pretty much fucked. Folks actually doing well in life need to start pumping out more kids. People who can't even feed themselves need to stop having so many kids. Otherwise you're just going to see a never-ending spiral of wealth inequality. We're creating a system where the vast majority of children are being born to families who have made lots of really awful life decisions, and they're now responsible for instilling values into a new generation. Not a good idea!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:45AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:45AM (#1014890)

                  From the Kiplinger's article:

                  Indeed, a record 6.71% (or 8,386,508 out of 125,018,808 total U.S. households) can now claim millionaire status. That's up from 6.21% in 2018 and just 5.81% in 2017.

                  Thank Trump.

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:47AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:47AM (#1014954)

                  Oh, we traded the large and prosperous middle class, for 5% millionaires, what a great deal! Sounds like something Trump would do!

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:07PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:07PM (#1015049)

                    You know there was a time I used to believe something not entirely different. This [urban.org] paper from the Urban Institute is one of the things that played a major role in starting to shift my worldview. Since think tanks do tend to spin things a bit, I'd quote this [wikipedia.org] snippet on their political stance. It can be summed up with the observation that they (the Urban Institute) fall somewhere between the NAACP and PETA. Their paper gives changes in society's various socioeconomic groups over time. In the below table I'm going to give the percent of society each group made up in 1979 followed by the percent in 2014:

                    Rich: 0.1% -> 1.8%
                    Upper Middle Class: 12.9% -> 29.4%
                    Middle Class: 38.8% -> 32%
                    Lower Middle Class: 23.9% -> 17.1%
                    Poor: 24.3% -> 19.8%

                    In 1979 51.8% of society was *at least* middle class. Today 63.2% is *at least* middle class.
                    In 1979 48.2% of society was lower class or poor. Today it's 36.9%.

                    We are *very* clearly on the right track ( economically ) in America, and things continue to get dramatically better. Keep in mind that those gains were realized in less than 40 years, and in recent years these trends have been accelerating. I started looking into these numbers when I found that much data seemed to not match certain 'woe is us' narratives espoused by the media. Those data being things like software salaries. Now a days in software 6 figure salaries aren't all that rare. There was a time when a 6 figure salary was something you hoped to hit after 20 years of promotions and even probably only possible if you made your way into upper management. And it wasn't just inflation. Salaries are growing much faster than inflation. And there are lots of these jobs.

                    Hahaha, holy shit. Ok, I just went to the BLS page on software developers [bls.gov] in preparation for my next point, and noticed something. The **MEDIAN** pay for a software developer is 6 figures. The point I was going to make there is about the scale of these jobs as well. That's 1.3 million jobs and there are millions of related jobs as well since the BLS breaks software into all sorts of different categories. And most categories in it are among the fastest growing of all jobs out there.

                    And it's not just software. Software is just such an easy example because it's a relatively new industry and it's just huge and growing by the day. Plumbers, welders, electricians, carpenters, etc are all now mostly pushing upwards of $50k a year. Other skilled fields like engineers are often pushing 6 figures, and so much more. I mean everybody is just doing pretty damned well now a days. The only requirement is that people get off their ass and actually do something. I mean even for people with no useful skills or education, you can *get paid* while learning trades in an apprenticeship. And you'll get a job that will be in demand everywhere in the world for the foreseeable future.

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:48PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:48PM (#1014777)

            What? They promoted Runaway, despite his lack of a college degree, despite his failure to complete secondary level education, despite his incomplete socialization, his spotty toilet-training, and inability to understand when he is being used by racists and Waltons, despite the fact he thinks Sen. Tom Cotton is a frickin' genius. Is that is not white privilege, and aristocracy, what is?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:35PM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:35PM (#1014533)

          When you went to school, white GI's got free college education. Black GI's didn't.

          When you went to school, white people got bank loans to buy houses. Black people didn't.

          But sure, YOU made it all on your own through merit.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:27PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:27PM (#1014559)

            LOL. Revisionary History 101 must be a prerequisite now for getting a Bachelor of SJW degree. Good luck cleaning toilets.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:22PM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:22PM (#1014587) Journal

            That is far less informative than someone thinks.

            In the second world war, I believe a lot of black veterans got shit on. By the time I joined the Navy, it was integrated. Black guys got everything that white guys got, we shared the same berthing areas, the same scuttlebutts, the same mess deck, same everything.

            At this point in time, SOME black guys segregated themselves as much as possible from white people. And SOME white guys segregated themselves from blacks. As a matter of course, I shared and shared alike with black, white, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Filipino, including the Maori tribesman who did NOT mingle with the rest of the Filipinos.

            At no point in my military service was I offered anything because I was white, or denied anything because I was white.

            Some of you folk need to get a grip on real history. US history isn't as sweet as some of the far-right white supremacists would have you believe, but it isn't all as dark and dreary as lefists would have you believe.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by ElizabethGreene on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:47PM (1 child)

              by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:47PM (#1014752) Journal

              Unfortunately the problem wasn't on the GI Bill end of the pipeline; it was on the education side. My local state university was founded in 1911, but didn't graduate an African American until 1965.

              My state has a long and shameful history of racism. It's important to remember it so we don't make those mistakes again.

              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:13AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:13AM (#1014815)

                》 My local state university was founded in 1911, but didn't graduate an African American until 1965.

                It's not the university's fault that Blacks are a bit slower. Once Affirmative Action ramps up again, BIPOCs will be getting their PhDs in a week or two to make up for it... much more efficient than the seven years it took Dr Dre to get his degree.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:53PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:53PM (#1014778)

              and Filipino, including the Maori tribesman who did NOT mingle with the rest of the Filipinos.

              Yep, meritocracy, and Americans who are Geographically challenged. Rest of the Filipinos? Are you Pinoy ignorant, Runaway?

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:15AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:15AM (#1014839) Journal

                Call it what you like. Nepomesimo's grandfather was a head hunter. He ate Tagalog and other tribesemen for dinner. Pinoy or whoever, it didn't matter, if you couldn't defend yourself from the hill giants, you were going home for lunch.

                I asked Nepo once, "Did you ever eat anyone?" His reply was, "I ate whatever my mother gave me."

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:52PM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:52PM (#1014498) Journal

        Not all Employers don't want that.

        FTFY

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 2, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:07PM (5 children)

      I'll remember that when my didn't-graduate-highschool, didn't-graduate-college, has-zero-certs self hands you money I made coding and admining while you're ringing me up at WalMart.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:44PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:44PM (#1014570)

        Your skin color is the best cert you could ever hope for. All bright and shiny and stuff.. The door opens itself for you

        FYI: A black guy can hide his AR easier than you can, blends right in. Is that why y'all are so scared? Or are you just jealous because you're so damn ugly?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:51AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:51AM (#1014799)

        Yep, in bumfuck nowhere you can make a decent living when not competing with more accomplished people. There is value in being able to self-teach and develop a successful career, but downplaying education just because you managed without it is unsurprisingly ignorant. Not that I disagree with this EO, but time will tell if it works as intended or just makes it easier for nepotism.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:13AM (2 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:13AM (#1014864) Homepage Journal

          This "education" you speak of? I've seen far more self-taught people who could code their way out of a wet paper bag than with degrees by quite a large margin. Sitting in class and being taught is no way to learn anything that requires using your own mind.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:31PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:31PM (#1015421)

            > Sitting in class and being taught is no way to learn anything that requires having rich parents.

            FTFY

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:15PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:15PM (#1014479)

    A small amount of sanity in an increasingly insane world.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:45PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:45PM (#1014492)

      It's just "give boomers a chance in govt, 'cause I'm running out of people I can fool".

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:24PM (13 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:24PM (#1014484)

    I disapprove of the language of the reportage:

    The order rightly recognizes that a job candidate with several years of relevant experience may be just as qualified, if not more so, than one who has collected a stack of advanced degrees.

    Just the facts, please don't try to think for me.

    Equal time for the critics: by removing the last vestige of independent assessment requirements, this order gives hiring/firing managers total discretion to hire whoever they want to, based on whatever criteria matter to them - it's a door wide open to corruption and graft.

    If they were to balance this with radical increase of transparency to a level that would expose kickbacks, political favors, racial and sex bias, etc. it could be an overall win - University degrees are mostly purchased with time and money, not earned with retention of knowledge and development of skill - they are definitely an imperfect measure, but imperfect as they are, they are the least biased measure we have (unless you get into specialty areas with examinations like the EIT/PE, etc.)

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:50PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @01:50PM (#1014497)

      Equal time for the critics: by removing the last vestige of independent assessment requirements, this order gives hiring/firing managers total discretion to hire whoever they want to, based on whatever criteria matter to them - it's a door wide open to corruption and graft.

      A stable genial idea.
      Too bad it comes too late to help Trump in the next election, not enough time to let the "winners" be decided and then do anything to maintain their position, kissing Trump's ass included.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:57PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:57PM (#1014572)

        Too bad it comes too late to help Trump in the next election

        Trump is getting all the help he needs from the democrats. Or haven't you noticed who they are running against him? Along the antiques in congress that will be reelected?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:56PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:56PM (#1014671)

          Comrade Trump gets all the help he needs from Putin.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @02:56PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @02:56PM (#1014509)

      University degrees are mostly purchased with time and money, not earned with retention of knowledge and development of skill

      Isn't this a problem? Specialization has narrowed the scope of competence and interpersonal skills are lacking. We're left with vassals who (as Douglas Murray puts it) are "educated into a state of imbecility" - even outsourcing thought itself. [areomagazine.com] Credentialism is that most vile of fallacies, the appeal to authority but without a broader set of competencies than specialization permits, there can be no competence and no authority. The gravitas and respect that comes with real world experience is earned through merit where there can be serious consequences for failure. If fortune favors the bold, what of the current crop of cowardly conformists? Universities shouldn't be safe spaces, they should be intellectual battlegrounds where students expand the scope of their learning and experience. Organizations need original thinkers and risk takers, they need mavericks who rub against the grain and win the respect of their peers. A rethink of the university system is long overdue.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:25PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:25PM (#1014525)

        Ha ha I would mod you funny if I wasn't crying.

        The university I work at is the EXACT opposite of a creative hotbed. The professors are, in the main, authoritarians who never had an original thought but learnt (from those before them) to bullshit and nod and act like a professor's supposed to act. These are the last people on earth you want training your kids. Unless you want your kids to be scared conformists that have forgotten how to think for themselves.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:56PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:56PM (#1014779)

          Charlie? Turning Point Community College drop-out? Oh, you are one of those ex-students! Like TMB! Just too smart for the world, too smart for your own good. Makes us all wonder why god even created you!

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:42PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:42PM (#1014538)

        they need mavericks who rub against the grain and win the respect of their peers

        They need (probably less than 3%) leaders who agree on a vision and a direction, the rest of what they need are cogs for the machine.

        Mavericks and people who rub against the grain are pretty easy to come by, winning the respect of the cogs is easier when the cogs have been trained...

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:39PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @03:39PM (#1014536)

      > this order gives hiring/firing managers total discretion to hire whoever they want to, based on whatever criteria matter to them - it's a door wide open to corruption and graft

      BINGO!

      This will be the crowning achievement of cronyism. We're almost there. Otherwise how can anyone explain Jared Kushner?

      • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:37PM

        by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:37PM (#1014634) Journal

        Unfortunately, I agree.

        The awful part is that official reason he gave for the change is legit, even if the actual reason is shit. The people who support Trump can understand the official reason, but fail to see the actual.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:05PM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:05PM (#1014993) Journal

        Otherwise how can anyone explain Jared Kushner?

        Trump trusts him.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:31PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:31PM (#1015007)

          That's great. A chain of trust that extends all the way to.... family members and his buddies from Yale [politico.com].

          Well that solves the riddle, problem solved, let's get on with fixing the VA computers reinventing the govt Middle East Peace accelerating the border wall heading the reelection campaign leading the Covid-19 response selling his shitty investment to Qatar using Whitehouse pressure on Saudi to blockade them.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 03 2020, @12:07AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 03 2020, @12:07AM (#1015599) Journal
            So what? That's the sort of job that gets cronies and political allies since President George Washington took the oath.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:31PM (#1014592)

      That insertion of opinion is minor to how the MSM would have laid it on: "Trump stated that life experience could be useful, but he provided no proof of that statement. The executive order is likely to appeal to his base, whites with lower education. It is a troublesome continuation of his tendency to install unqualified people in government, often from his own family..."

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Samantha Wright on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:12PM (2 children)

    by Samantha Wright (4062) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:12PM (#1014551)

    More cynically, Trump is notorious for preferring loyalty over competence. This might just be a way to broaden his own recruiting pool, though it also creates jobs in a way that favours his core demographic. White men without college degrees are his strongest supporters, and many of them are pretty unemployable in a degree-driven world.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:38PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:38PM (#1014566) Journal

      I don't discount your interpretation.

      But another one is that this opens the door to cronyism and nepotism. C'mon right in, the swamp is fine!

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:58PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:58PM (#1014672)

      Janitorial services in the government are contracted out.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:24PM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:24PM (#1014558)

    My Dad had a GED and a lot of Navy training. No college degree. His administrative experience in the Navy lead him to a DoD position overseeing several people. He had a few college courses later; but no bachelors. I think he might have got an associate's in accounting, and toyed with becoming a CPA but he didn't need to be a CPA to do his job so... wait for it... he never became a CPA and he kept making good money, and even worked in the private sector for the last few years before he retired in the 1980s.

    This kind of thing used to be common. High school got dumbed down (my Dad read Shakespeare in 9th or 10th grade before he dropped out to work in stores and factories), and college is getting dumbed down too.

    Credit where credit due. This administration makes the right move once in a while.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:42PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:42PM (#1014568)

      A cynical reading (an angle which proves to be remarkably applicable to everything the current administration does) is that this allows them to easily hire unqualified people into positions. For instance, you want your EPA science team to be staffed with people with Ph.D.s in a related field, well now you can hire that Kansas science teacher who has been teaching that creationist-based environmental science course (about how God will save us from mercury poisoning from our drinking water). I would need to hear an analysis from someone who understands the intent of this order, but given that it is being enacted as an executive order tells me that it isn't being done to fix a problem, but rather to get around an impediment.

      Tangentially related to your example of your Dad, there are veteran preferences in most all hiring in the Fed Govt where if the vet application meets the requirements of the job position, the employer is required to take the veteran over the other candidates. However, I don't know when that was enacted, so it might not have been applicable in the 70s.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:14PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:14PM (#1014579)

        Could that impediment be that a majority of higher education is ideologically captured, so requiring university credentialing has evolved into being tantamount to also preferring a particular political belief system? Or it's simpler and just that jobs that don't require anything taught in college have had requirements inflated to reserve the jobs for middle class folks and inflate salary.

      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:22PM (1 child)

        You're half-assing your cynicism so you can dislike Trump. A true cynic would note that the current setup would have the government forced to turn down Stallman or Wall for an entry-level codemonkey position.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:55AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:55AM (#1014802)

          And you are half assing your trolling.

          "A cynical reading (an angle which proves to be remarkably applicable to everything the current administration does) is that this allows them to easily hire unqualified people into positions."

          That quote is 100% accurate, and the fact that you're still waving the TDS flag shows how education is still valuable even if you can pay the bills without it.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:52PM (7 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:52PM (#1014599)

      Your belief that high school got dumbed down is just plain incorrect.

      For instance, since you brought up Shakespeare in 9th or 10th grade, here's some of the fiction the Common Core English standards [corestandards.org] recommend for that grade level:
      William Shakespeare - Macbeth
      Homer - The Odyssey
      Ovid - Metamorphoses
      Franz Kafka - The Metamorphosis
      Ray Bradbury - Fahrenheit 451
      John Steinbeck - The Grapes of Wrath
      Henrik Ibson - A Doll's House
      I'm not saying any of these are particularly difficult reads, but they are about in line with what I was expected to be able to read in my early high school years. And their non-fiction recommendations also seem quite appropriate, and the sorts of things I was expected to read in, say, high school history and math courses.

      If you really want to look for a huge change in the education system, look at what happened to vocational training. In the 1960's, lots of high schools offered courses in what they officially called "industrial arts" but was colloquially referred to as "shop", which meant a lot of high school graduates had at least some background in carpentry, metalworking, auto repair, electrical circuits, and other trades. By the time I was going through in the 1990's, those courses had all been moved to a special facility away from the main high school campus, and taking any of them would take so much time out of your day because of traveling that you couldn't realistically take them if you were aiming to go to college. Nowadays, most public education programs offer none of those courses at all, and that means anyone wanting to get into a trade has to spend a couple of years at a technical college to learn skills that used to be taught in high schools. It should be noted that shift had nothing at all to do with "dumbing down" and everything to do with budget cuts.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:20PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:20PM (#1014621)

        As you're speaking of grades 9-10, what percent of all 11th graders do you think could now read Macbeth and give me a basic (yet meaningful and accurate) description of how it relates to contemporary society?

        It's *very* safe to put that number in the single digit percents, and I've taught that grade. Standards mean nothing when people are just passed along, one way or the other. The whole point of a mandatory high school education was to give everybody a certain baseline skill set and knowledge. But it seems that in modern life we've replaced that with the goal of making sure everybody gets a mostly meaningless piece of paper. And college education is now also going down the exact same path.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:55PM (5 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:55PM (#1014641)

          What percent of all 11th graders do you think could now read Macbeth and give me a basic (yet meaningful and accurate) description of how it relates to contemporary society?

          It's *very* safe to put that number in the single digit percents, and I've taught that grade.

          Given that Macbeth isn't really about contemporary society, and most people today aren't generally taking fortune-tellers too seriously, I can understand some difficulty with that question. Sure, you could land on something like "unjust actions in pursuit of ambition can come back to bite you", but that message is better expressed in Julius Caesar, and of course shows up in lots of contemporary literature too.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:19PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:19PM (#1014678)

            Of course but this is the point, is it not? One does not read Shakespeare in the same way you consume a movie. Everything is imagery, metaphor, and message within message. There are an immense number of ways to interpret the work, and the lessons and thoughts of it can be applied to society in endless ways. I'm not looking for any super deep answer - just an understanding of at least some of the metaphors and the ability to interweave that metaphor into real life. Basic stuff. But the vast majority of students would not be even remotely capable of such. So whether it is part of the curriculum or not is completely irrelevant if the students are failing to achieve comprehension of what they're learning.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:35PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:35PM (#1014687)

              You're both overestimating the difficulty of Shakespeare and underestimating the average person's intelligence. I graduated in '09 and read 3 Shakespeare plays in English classes during high school, and another in middle school.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:08AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:08AM (#1014877)

                I thought this as well. Then I became a teacher and got more experience across a wide array of schools. And I learned I was simply wrong. I think the one thing our experience emphasizes is how clueless we are when young of not only the rest of the world, but even of our own peers. That or it may be that you went to an outlier of a school and/or went entirely AP/Vanguard/etc are are now extrapolating your peers/experience to the average, though I'm assuming you'd have the common sense not to do that. In reality the average American student is in awful shape and getting worse by the year.

                You can actually quantify this as well. The PISA is an international exam that is given to 15 year olds, which I'll stick with. This [nytimes.com] article goes over some of the data from the most recent results. About 20% of American 15 year olds read below a level expected of a 10 year old. And reading is somewhere we did, relative to our other results, well. In math we came 38th in the world, even though we spend more than the vast majority of the world on education per child. I'm also excluding tertiary education spending there, so it's not just a product of crazy high college costs. A different exam [nytimes.com] carried out by the Education Department showed rapid and severe declines in educational achievement. As of 2017, only 34% of 8th graders in the US are "proficient" in reading. And those numbers are getting worse across all groups. The worst performers are getting weaker faster than the rest, but even the top is also declining.

                The more concerning thing about this is when you think about the fact that these people will be the ones making up the next generation. The United States seems set to enter what may be a prolonged decline if things don't suddenly take a 180, and there's 0 indication of this happening. And for what it's worth I got out of teaching fairly quickly. Our education system is not geared towards solving this problem, but instead hiding it. I taught mathematics and was invariably an outlier of their other teachers in that I love the field and have had tremendous experience and success with the field at all levels. And my students did get a whole lot of out of it. I even had one girl go out of her way to thank me outside of class. Apparently I helped her realize it wasn't such a scary subject after all, and she felt I'd changed her life. That sort of stuff made me feel awesome. What didn't make me feel awesome was the recurring and never-ending pressure to somehow make sure the ~20% (and growing - this was a while back now) of the class who either shouldn't even be there or couldn't care less about learning, also 'excelled'. It was a wink/wink/nudge/nudge for pass them along, by whatever means necessary. No thanks, teaching is clearly not for me. If you want to know why most teachers in the US suck, it has nothing to do with not paying them enough.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:01AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:01AM (#1014780)

            What? Shirley you realize that Macbeth is just Breaking Bad in Scotland? Or, maybe you do not, because you failed to be educated? Americans! Functional illiteracy, at the Highest lavals!

          • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:31AM

            by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:31AM (#1014792)

            ...and most people today aren't generally taking fortune-tellers too seriously...

            Your ending up with trump suggests otherwise.

            --
            It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:06PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:06PM (#1014610)

      Check out this [nytimes.com] admittance test for Harvard from 1869. The accompanying article is here [nytimes.com]. Of the 210 candidates who took the test in 1870, 185 were admitted. Incoming freshmen were expected to know Latin and Greek, the whole of Virgil, Caesar's Commentaries, as well as an in depth *understanding* of mathematics as demonstrated by the exam.

      But I think this also demonstrates a very serious argument in favor of this executive order.

      A number of decades back we started telling everybody to get a degree because people with degrees have good jobs, so you too can have a good job if you get a degree. But this was always fake and based on a gross misunderstanding of life. Companies didn't value the degrees, they valued the sort of people getting them. At a time when college was completely unnecessary, and also extremely challenging, people who actually chose to pursue it showed *inherent* initiative, motivation, and probably a good dose of intelligence on top. And so a degree generally indicated a very special person.

      But today? We're up to literally more than 1 in 8 [wikipedia.org] people having at least a masters and 45% having at least some sort of a degree. They just don't mean anything anymore. And not only that but at the same time everybody started getting degrees we also started handing out educational loans like cotton candy which sent university costs skyrocketing since there was practically no limited to what could be "afforded". And so now not only do degrees mean much less than ever before but they also cost *vastly* more than ever.

      And so I still think a degree is probably a good idea if (1) you can get into a good school and (2) pursue a meaningful major. But in general there is a much stronger argument than ever before to avoid getting a degree. And so forcing people into what is, in general, going to be a bad value proposition is just not cool.

  • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:34PM (3 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:34PM (#1014629)

    I get that there are exceptions to the idea that having a degree in something means you're better at it than somebody without a degree. I also know, from experience, that having a degree in something means you are very likely to be better at it than somebody without that degree.

    When you're hiring, you are necessarily working from imperfect and incomplete information. And that means that you decide based on probabilities. And yes, that does mean that all else being equal I'm going to prefer the degree. And the reputation of the school you got that degree from matters too: All else being equal, when hiring for a technically-oriented job I'm going to prefer the MIT grad over the University of Phoenix grad, on the grounds that the MIT grad was likely held to standards the University of Phoenix grad wasn't. Sure, there may be some dumb MIT engineering grads and some geniuses who dropped out of high school, but not knowing for sure which I'm looking at I'm going to bet the MIT grad is more likely to be the better choice.

    And I would want the federal government to make and formalize similar thinking in an effort to have a high quality civilian workforce. For instance, I don't want the kid who totally knows Wordpress to be in charge of Healthcare.gov, I want someone who has both some theoretical knowledge and practical experience doing the kinds of things that website requires.

    And like many other commenters, I'm concerned that this move is really about opening the door to political loyalty being the only standard that really matters in federal personnel practices. The Soviets tried that, and it didn't work out well for them, why would anyone expect it to work for us?

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:25PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @07:25PM (#1014656)

      I know nobody ever does this, but it might be wise to skim the order before assuming what it says. I'll help:

      - position listing should emphasize necessary skills/competencies
        - candidate assessment should not rely on self evaluation, but through some manner to objectively evaluate those skills/competencies
        - degrees only qualify for skills/competencies when degree is in a field which is directly relevant
        - new assessment strategies should be regularly evaluated in order to ensure the optimal quality and integrity is maintained in the hiring process

      Basically, they want to copy what Google did. And while I may disagree with Google on a lot of things, they undoubtedly developed a system that, at one time, was capable of finding and hiring the best. And indeed there are many people who do not have any degree who worked at Google, but the vast majority did. And the vast majority of the vast majority there also had a technical degree from a well regarded school. But, as a consequence of their hiring system, those credentials are pretty meaningless - it's all about the skills and competencies. It just so happens that people who have the right skills and competencies also happen to have those credentials.

      It's just an obviously better system. If you're after the skills/competencies then focus on the skills/competencies. The previous system created scenarios where somebody with an irrelevant/unrelated degree could be preferred over somebody with extensive experience doing exactly what the job was after. It was simply one of the many errors in our bureaucrazy. This *is* a good fix.

      • (Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:25PM (1 child)

        by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:25PM (#1014768) Journal

        I'm ecstatic that I could work the entire math section, short of recalling the binomial theorem (I was able to derive it) and looking up the definition of a rod.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @09:53AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @09:53AM (#1014918)

          Think you're one post off the one you meant to respond to! :D

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