As with many aspects of the new coronavirus, researchers are trying to pull together data to understand the medium-term health effects more fully.
[...] Its impact on the heart still isn't clear, Dr Gallo says, but studies published in recent weeks describe abnormalities in the hearts of patients who have completely cleared the virus.
"[The researchers] asked them about their just general wellbeing and a lot of the patients are commenting on just being generally exhausted and having shortness of breath, some of them having palpitations, atypical chest pain," she says.
What's more, many of these patients weren't that sick with COVID-19 — most of them had managed their illness at home, rather than needing hospital treatment.
[...] Other persistent symptoms people report have to do with the brain: "brain fog", sleeplessness and headaches.'
[...]Fatigue, which is more than just a feeling of tiredness, and can be associated with things like a "foggy" brain, slowed reflexes and headaches, is usually a useful response to infections.
"There's a good reason for that — mounting an immune response to fight an infection takes a huge amount of energy," Dr Landowski says.
"The body wants you to do as little as possible, so you can conserve energy and divert it to the immune system.
Then, once the infection is eliminated, the fatigue dissipates.
"However, in some people, the switch that returns the body back to normal seems to fail, resulting in chronic fatigue."
[...] "Regardless of which cells it's infecting, if it's infecting cells in the brain, it could be causing damage, which could have long-term consequences," Dr Lawson said.
Even if the virus doesn't infect brain cells directly, inflammation caused by the virus could also cause damage to the brain.
Some experts are concerned the medium-term effects on the brain might have consequences that reach further.
In an article in the Journal of Alzheimers Disease Reports, experts raise the question of whether people who've had COVID-19, particularly those whose symptoms included loss of taste or smell, will be at greater risk of conditions including Alzheimer's disease after they recover.
The last-linked article from above (which is open-access), is excerpted here with links sprinkled on some of the unusual terms:
Some of the earliest neurologic findings were in those experiencing COVID-19-related anosmia and dysgeusia [2]. Important to this equation is that COVID-19 may prove to be a risk factor for future neurodegenerative disorders, beyond that which would be expected in the context of other comorbidities and genetic predispositions. Anosmia and the biological processes resulting in this symptom contribute to grey matter loss in cortical regions [3], which is similar to where pathognomonic amyloid plaques are often discovered [4]. Olfactory dysfunction has also been found to be associated with the graduation from mild cognitive impairment (MCI) to AD, serving as a potential identifier for preclinical stages [5].
[...] It has become clear that many age-related conditions are found among those testing positive for COVID-19, though some of these are also related to lifestyle and family history. ... Systolic hypertension in midlife, rather than only late life, is associated with 18% and 25% increased risk of AD, respectively ... These cardiovascular risk factors are directly related to cerebrovascular consequences, such as hypoperfusion, a symptom strongly associated with MCI and AD [14]. Plasma exchange and albumin for AD patients with hypoperfusion, for example, has been shown to improve cognitive deficits and initiate cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) amyloid-β (Aβ)...
Journal Reference:
Jack C. Lennon. Neurologic and Immunologic Complications of COVID-19: Potential Long-Term Risk Factors for AlzheimerΓÇÖs Disease [open], Journal of Alzheimer's Disease Reports (DOI: 10.3233/ADR-200190)
Got it! The millennials surviving COVID-19 today may have higher chances of an early onset of dementia than the baby boomers of today.
(Score: 4, Informative) by MostCynical on Monday August 03 2020, @04:14AM (5 children)
also reports of heart scarring and seizures. [smh.com.au]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:41AM (3 children)
Do they also get lyme disease to go with their chronic fatigue?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:44AM (2 children)
Let's not forget back pain and whatever else is difficult to disprove with imaging.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:23AM (1 child)
hemorrhoids too.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:20AM
Pictures or it didn't happen. (challenge - do it w/o goatse)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by choose another one on Monday August 03 2020, @02:56PM
and...
Type 1 diabetes see e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01891-8 [nature.com]
Kidney damage, see e.g. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/03/severe-covid-19-can-lead-to-kidney-failure-medical-studies-reveal.html [cnbc.com]
And we're only 6 months in, the weirder stuff may be months / years down the road.
I've seen reports that 30% of survivors have signs of pulmonary fibrosis, if true, and if it progresses like "normal" pulmonary fibrosis that's a 5yr life expectancy tops - unless the next wave of covid gets you first (since we don't know how long immunity lasts).
There's a coronavirus in cats that is typically very mild, but two years or so later (so say 8 years for a human maybe) leads to death from weird and nasty autoimmune reaction - in significant enough percentage of cases for vets to have noticed and proved the connection.
To further complicate things, covid can be doing this stuff in at least 3 ways - direct viral attack, damage secondary to hypoxia, and damage secondary to thrombosis (blood clotting), oh and the hypoxia may itself be secondary to thrombosis. There are already doctors saying that covid should actually be treated as a vascular disorder rather than respiratory, I recall one autopsy study that found that all (100% of those examined) covid fatalities showed signs of pulmonary thrombosis. The list of long term symptoms could be taken straight out of a standard list for an (or at least one, the one I know only too well) existing known blood clotting disorder - low level neuro, stroke/tia, anosmia, breathlessness, chest pains, palpitations, chronic fatigue, various organ damage, and so on and so on.
Good news is that that clotting disorder is treatable with good prognosis for normal life expectancy (providing I don't get covid...). Bad news is that it is frequently life-limiting, the drugs are life limiting themselves, and the level of medical support required to get that life expectancy is going to be expensive (even with the NHS, someone has to pay for it, MRIs are not a pleasant way to pass time as it is, not sure I want to think about it combined with walletectomy). Multiply that up by the number of survivors and we have a problem (and Houston has a bigger one) - millions may be unable to work and requiring long term medical service support at way over "average for age" levels. The temporary hospitals we've built in the UK are actually still there, not just waiting for the second wave but also (allegedly) for possible mass post-covid syndrome.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Subsentient on Monday August 03 2020, @05:06AM (65 children)
I know EBOLAIDS won't kill me, but it might well maim me. I don't want that fucking virus. I have enough trouble with chronic exhaustion and I have a weak heart, along with asthma. Don't need more pain, no sir.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:27AM (62 children)
So take vitamin c with a dosing schedule sufficient to prevent deficiency and get oxygen before your body has been in a hypoxic state for days.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @05:32AM (43 children)
How much C?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:36AM (4 children)
By pounds. Any that your body can't use will clean your toilet.
Don't forget to flush those guts too, vitamin C is still an acid.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:51AM (3 children)
Use sodium ascorbate... Generally you take 1-2 grams every 15 minutes until osmotic diarrhea to find out how much your body needs. Once you get diarrhea, that means you took too much too fast. Most people can take 5-10 g per day orally before diarrhea.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:16AM
I'll stick with vegetable juice, thanks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @12:57PM
Osmotic diarrhea? I'll have to remember to tell my wife that the morning after I drink a case of beer. No, you see it's the osmotic effect of COVID vit. C prevention health, look it up online!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:10PM
There. FTFY. Gotta knock that shit out. Time it with your Hydroxycholoquine and demon sperm doses for maximum effect!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:49AM (30 children)
We don't know, because it is now August and not a single publication on vitamin c levels or pharmacokinetics in covid patients has been published.
This lady was already on a ventilator then got 11 g/day IV: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32709838/ [nih.gov]
For other critically ill patients they generally need at least 2-3 grams per day IV:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29228951/ [nih.gov]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29522710/ [nih.gov]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31778629/ [nih.gov]
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2752063 [jamanetwork.com]
https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext [chestnet.org]
That is after a lot of oxidative damage has been done though. They were probably already deficient for quite awhile. Perhaps early on lower doses or higher oral doses would be sufficient.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:54AM (26 children)
Science is marked troll within seconds on this site. But obviously wrong BS that seems to be in favor of democrats is upmodded like crazy. I have tested this numerous times. I said there is an anti-biden bias in the media and it got upvoted, lol.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:23AM (25 children)
That's not science. Yet.
You yourself admit "We don't know, because it is now August and not a single publication on vitamin c levels or pharmacokinetics in covid patients has been published."
At least, kudos, it has low chances to do damage, but no indication if it helps.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:39AM (19 children)
Science uses reason and evidence to figure out general rules about how the universe works. Science tells us it is very unlikely covid patients are not deficient and require 10-1000x higher vitamin c consumption than healthy people to avoid that.
I dont need to run a study on electric cars hitting people to know it will hurt them same as normal cars.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @12:54PM (18 children)
Then where's the "reason and evidence"? What does an enormous uptake in vitamin c fix in covid patients?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:00PM (15 children)
Do your own damn work, douchebutt.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @01:04PM (14 children)
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM (12 children)
Thank you all for answering my question and a truly great discussion. You're all making great philosophical arguments, but my take on this discussion: large amounts of vitamin C are not likely to hurt most people, so why not try it.
Khallow, if you don't want it, then don't, but that's not a strong enough reason to discourage others. If you can cite examples of vitamin C being a problem for some people, conditions, etc., then please let us know- I'd like to know.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:21PM (1 child)
And smearing your entire body with honey or pancake syrup or washing your hair with your own urine are unlikely to harm you either. So why not try it?
Wearing a butt plug 18 hours a day won't likely hurt you either. And it will stop most explosive diarrhea too! Why not try it?
The links above [soylentnews.org] talk about *very* sick people, who are likely on IV nutrition or feeding tubes.
Taking massive doses of Vitamin C will ensure that you won't get scurvy [wikipedia.org], but it provides no known mitigation or positive impact on COVID-19.
But hey, as long as it won't hurt/kill you, why not?
Dancing naked in the street won't hurt you, nor will baking bread, writing poetry or having multiple milk enemas every day. So why not try them?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:39AM
Pictures or it didn't happen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:00PM
Kidney stones and expensive urine for two.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @10:31PM (8 children)
Such as the original poster advocating dosing vitamin C to the point of overt toxicity? Inducing diarrhea in a well-developed covid infection is a problem, for example. And what are you getting for that extreme dosage (up to 1000x times normal dose!)? I just see some babble about free radicals. The human body isn't going to be rebuilding tissue 1000x faster nor will have 1000x more radicals to neutralize.
I tend to increase dosage of vitamin C when I get sick, because well I've heard it helps. But those levels are way beyond a mere increase.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:05AM (4 children)
I'm sorry, my previous comment was posted in error, due to being rushed. I will always wish we could edit posts that were just plain mistakes. It was an accidental mashup, not intended for you. Again, sorry. Too much caffeine likely also.
Anyway, I absolutely agree with you. As I've posted before, and I guess I need to repeat many things every time I post, our body chemistries are all different, and what works well for one person and set of medical problems might be poison to another person. I'm never a fan of one-size-fits-all / sweeping generalizations. And certainly not a fan of anything done to toxicity! But I'm reminded- chemotherapy is toxicity by definition, and often works, so again, we're all different, diseases are different, and who knows, maybe in some people high-dose C could kill a disease faster than the host human?
People get so intense in these discussions. I'm still learning about this type of interaction- not sure why people get so bunched up. It'd be nice if people could just toss ideas around without all the vitriol. But I digress... Back to the local topic- C might be good, but don't take it in chalky pill form.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday August 23 2020, @02:39AM (3 children)
Chemotherapy for cancer is very carefully managed toxicity. Not try an overdose and then cut back if you survive.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday August 23 2020, @03:26AM (2 children)
Absolutely. I think a lot of medicines are basically poison, but given in careful doses they do just enough good. Steroids come to mind. You've probably heard that people used to take strychnine for "what ails you". https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/drugs/pharmacology/strychnine [encyclopedia.com]
Friend of mine's father had esophageal cancer, caught somewhat late, got chemo, was improving, but for some reason the doctors gave a big dose that killed him. He might not have recovered from the cancer no matter what, so it might have been a last-ditch effort.
There's a medical oncologist in my area that is extremely precise (he's Swiss), and who that treated my dad 8 years ago. Dad fully recovered and had no measurable chemo side effects.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:17AM (1 child)
My wife was a hematologist, who sometimes treated some kinds of cancer patients.
She told me that these toxins had to be dosed very accurately. A slight variation in dosage could make the difference between death, uselessness, or therapeutic effect. This required biochemical monitoring to adjust for the ways different patients would metabolize the toxins. The trick was to find a toxin that killed the cancer more than it harmed the patient. Even with the same kind of cancer, different patients would need different toxins.
High-tech medicine.
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:43AM
Yes, the aforementioned Swiss oncologist is primarily hematologist. He insisted on weighing my dad, who could not walk nor stand at the time (but fully recovered a year later) and we had great difficulty getting him on a scale. Dr. didn't have the large scale for weighing wheelchairs, so we did our best and got him weighed. That Dr. wins best of (metropolitan area) awards by major local magazine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @10:49AM (2 children)
For burn injury theyve given over 100 g/day vitamin c IV and seen the patient is deficient again within 2 days. Not going to bother linking it since you don't seem to have read any of the dozen refs already linked here.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:40PM (1 child)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:48PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:35PM
Their words are backed by the linked article.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:18PM (1 child)
There are five papers linked already you can check. Sick and injured people are deficient in vitamin c because they suffer from higher levels of oxidative stress. Vitamin C is the terminal extracellular antioxidant. So when it is too low the tissue starts to pretty much dissolve. In the extreme case of deadly scurvy all your old scars pop open and tissues mush together, this is happening to a lesser extent for awhile leading up to that. We want to prevent it from happening.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297842/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:42PM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:48AM (4 children)
Science! We are sciencing the shit out of the vitamin C! And the Zinc! And the arythmatic mice-in a jar. Not to mention the demon sperm. Hydroxychloroquawhatisyourfuckingproblem! Are you now, or have you ever been, a Republican? Too stupid to understand how Twitter and Tik-tok work? Think the President can move elections around or declare a national religion, or force Runaway to get all gay-married and socialized? The Hypochondria is already too much, but the right-wing paranoia is just too much. We are coming for you. We are already all around you. Do you hear that sound? The ringing in your ears? That is the sound of science, science you do not understand, but will hit you like a Runaway express train, with extra dumb sauce.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 03 2020, @07:51AM (1 child)
I... don't know if I want to see this even just attempted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM
Well, I mean...he's got his head permanently up his own ass, so that might count as anal sex, and it's with a man (himself) soooo...?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:02PM (1 child)
Vitamin C - what mainstream science won't tell you. Only those without a high school diploma can see through the conspiracy!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:14PM
Are you THAT sure every high school makes people unlearn plain arithmetics?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_synthesis_pathway [wikipedia.org]
Here are the numbers. You are welcome to mod them Troll.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:59AM (1 child)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32384616/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday August 03 2020, @05:06PM
The link parent posted checks out, in the full text you find the second part. Why has it been marked offtopic? Why nobody links the fatigue, brain fog and breathlessness to the mask + lockdown and insists only in considering the pathogen action of the virus? brain fog indeed.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:29AM
Not even wrong
(Score: 4, Funny) by driverless on Monday August 03 2020, @10:22AM (6 children)
Anything over 500mg/day will do fine for upping your chances of getting kidney stones, so just start taking a few tabs a day and then sit back and wait for them to notify you of their presence.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:04PM (2 children)
That's why you need to take the Zinc. If you get sore kidneys, double up on zinc. Never hurts to take Alex Jone's Double Plus Brain Good tablets (with Vit. C and zinc).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by driverless on Monday August 03 2020, @01:12PM (1 child)
Zinc isn't as reliable as vitamin C for forming kidney stones, but hey, every bit helps. If you really want to go all out, try a supplement mix of vitamin C (if you're male, forgot to mention that earlier), vitamin D, and zinc, augmented with a high-sodium diet, and soon you'll be enjoying that feeling of childbirth without any need to get pregnant.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:42AM
Add excess calcium, does wonders building that calcium oxalate.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @01:45PM (1 child)
One of the only medical issues I ever had was a kidney stone about 20 years ago. Turns out there are many factors, in combination. Generally dehydrated (but drinking too much water is equally damaging to kidneys), lots of brown drink including: colas, root beers, iced tea mix especially. Doctor said they all have excess "oxalate" which binds with calcium and that my stone (had to be laparoscopically removed) was calcium-oxalate. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/oxalate-good-or-bad [healthline.com]
Sister's boyfriend at the time, who is very intelligent, said he had had many kidney stones, and finally figured out it was any chalky vitamin pill- C especially- that was causing his. He continued taking vitamins, but switched to other forms- "colloidal", drink mixes, extra citrus fruits, etc., and the stones stopped.
I wonder if the chewable vit. C would have the same problem (stone contributions)?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:20PM
Yea, best to stick to ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate powder in water if taking a lot. Adding anything but water is going to make it more toxic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:23PM
You have a source for this? From what I've seen there is no good study of kidney stones after vitamin c supplement. Ie, if you are going to accept case reports and questionable observational studies as proof, then you also need to accept lots of the claimed health benefits.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Subsentient on Monday August 03 2020, @06:55AM (17 children)
See that's the problem with you people. What? Bleach isn't good enough for you? It's good enough for the President of the United States!
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:06AM (13 children)
I have to agree with the poster below. There has been lack of proper study, and even outright obstruction by the FDA, FCC, and FBI of:
1) Vitamin C
2) Hyperbaric oxygen
3) Vaccines in aged/comorbid animals or volunteers
Yet recommendations without evidence for dangerous and extreme measures like:
1) Putting patients on ventilators right away
2) Lockdowns and mask wearing that reduces transmission of all sorts of things
Have lead me to conclude the governments and health authorities of the "West" are just too corrupt or incompetent to continue deserving respect.
(Score: 2) by Subsentient on Monday August 03 2020, @07:46AM (1 child)
Yes, because something you used to eat in gummy form when you were 6 is going to stave off a life threatening virus.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:56AM
It isn't going to stave off a virus. It is going to reduce the amount of oxidative damage that results from the vitamin C deficiency found in sick and injured people. Also, a few 250 mg gummy filled with 16x more glucose molecules (that competes with dehydroascorbate for transport into cells, where it is reduced back to ascorbate or else lost) is not going to be sufficient.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11396616/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by driverless on Monday August 03 2020, @01:18PM (3 children)
Vitamin C is actually one of the most heavily-studied vitamins out there, mostly due to Linus Pauling's obsession with it. Unless you've got an innate vitamin C deficiency it basically does fuck-all for you unless you own stock in a vitamin-manufacturing company. In fact except for folate for pregnant women, provided you have a reasonable diet you don't need any supplements of any kind since you'll be getting everything you need from what you eat. At best they do nothing, at worst they have all sorts of nasty side-effects when you dose your body with way too much of fad-vitamin-du-jour than it's meant to take.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 03 2020, @02:15PM
1990, I was working at a paper mill construction site. The Porta-Potty guy said something about vitamins clogging up his pump one day. I questioned him about that. He says all those one-a-day vitamins end up in his porta-potties, and that sometimes they can cause problems for his pumping equipment. So, apparently, a lot of those vitamins are doing no one any good at all. Of course, those that pass through like that are doing no harm! It's just wasted money, when all is said and done.
Of course, porta-pottying isn't science, so the vitamin manufacturers are still making money.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:54PM (1 child)
Did you even read what you are responding too. Sick and injured people need 10-1000x more to avoid deficiency.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:29PM
*"responding to?"
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday August 03 2020, @01:37PM (3 children)
There's also been a lack of study of the efficacy of sugar. Maybe people just aren't eating enough sugar.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:28PM (2 children)
Not sure what you mean? Blood sugar is routinely measured and controlled if it goes too low or high.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:39PM (1 child)
Yes but they're looking at the wrong type of sugar.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday August 03 2020, @07:38PM
Oh please enlighten me, is there really a conspiracy bullshit I haven't heard of yet?
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @01:51PM (2 children)
Yes but PLEASE be careful of excess oxygen / oxygen toxicity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity [wikipedia.org] I'm quite sure that's what killed my poor dad last November. The nurses and techs were too determined to get is blood O2 saturation close to 100%. I protested but was rebuffed, and now forced to strongly consider legal lesson-teaching.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:26PM (1 child)
HBOT practitioners are actually most alert to the risks of oxygen toxicity. The standard of care for a covid patient who comes in after days of hypoxemia is to blast them with oxygen rather than gradually increase it. Surely the body has adapted to lower oxygen so the sudden increase can be harmful.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:42PM
I doubt it. Next you'll be telling us that climate modelers include known sources of warming in their models. What about the SUN!? Idioits.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Opportunist on Monday August 03 2020, @08:32AM
It would be good enough for me if he injected it into himself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @11:42AM
Should I use regular bleach or one of the scented varieties?
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @01:53PM
Bleach. Next think you know someone will put it in our drinking water!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:32AM (1 child)
ORLY? Start hitting the bars.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 03 2020, @05:51AM
Had to stop after a short while [stackexchange.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:48AM (47 children)
The West has been exposed - the ideological fracture, gross and worsening class/racial/tribal divisions, distrust of authority (not just the government, but also scientific establishment, not without reasons due to the fields' commercialization), While it has been suspected for some time, COVID-19 starkly demonstrated that It's not the elite group among the international community.
This virus, too, shall pass, one way or another, but it remains to be seen whether the West can learn from its mistakes and take measures to address the issues, and remain the cultural/geopolitical force it had been the last few centuries.
Perhaps "the West" is not such a coherent notion anymore.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:13AM (3 children)
Was it ever?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:18AM (2 children)
At least it was more accepted when the West was, and was perceived as, the clear-cut superior block in the world.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:19AM (1 child)
You are thinking of when the West was Kanye. Now, the West is North, North West, the Son of Kanye. Almost North by Northwest. Compasses are bi-polar, dude! You think this is an accident?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:27AM
Bow down before the one you ... wait, what a jackass.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by istartedi on Monday August 03 2020, @06:40AM (37 children)
For the longest time we've been hearing (and I have to admit, basking in the idea) that "the west" and America in particular is more innovative because we're more individualistic. In Japan, they say, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" whereas in the USA they say, "failure is a learning experience", "he marches to the beat of his own drummer" and other such things which are supposed to make us the kind of place that innovates, "thinks outside the box", and ultimately triumphs.
Maybe we still do, but right now the "hive" mentality is looking stronger. That sucks for a lot of us, because we don't like the idea of being worker bees, obedient servants, or conformists. We still point to our individuality as the kind of thing that's prevented us from being taken over by mass extremist movements such as fascism and communism, and yet even with our alleged individuality, there seems to be a lot of tribalism here now. It hasn't pushed us over the precipice, but it's like we're gazing into the abyss. Why?
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Monday August 03 2020, @07:46AM (12 children)
OTOH covid is one of those things which does better with a hive mentality - "stay home, stay safe" is a message that jars with the anti-authoritarian types, but it is pretty clear that this message is the one that returns the result of no covid.
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Monday August 03 2020, @07:53AM (9 children)
Yes, this is really what I was driving at and perhaps didn't hit quite hard enough. Covid is making regimented society look more appealing. In the US right now though, it's like a dysfunctional dichotomy. You have people not wearing masks because they think it makes them part of the hive, but that itself is a kind of hive. In a well-ordered society controlled my mask-wearers, they're doing better. In a disordered society controlled by ad-hoc tribal leaders split between mask and non-mask, we're doing worse.
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:05AM (7 children)
It's not about individuality vs collectivism.
It's about education, judgement, respect and courtesy (or lack thereof) for others.
It's about hubris.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday August 03 2020, @08:11AM (5 children)
> It's about education, judgement
I don't know if it is related, but education in UK at least is something that has been slipping for quite some time. A sort of anti-elitism has crept in; good, in that there is less focus on "winners" vs "losers" in education, but bad, in that there is less focus on high achievement...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:24AM (1 child)
How about more basic "achievement", like civic mind, common decency?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:31PM
Common decency is only for those in a protected victim class, not for everyone, you patriarchal dummy!
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Dr Spin on Monday August 03 2020, @09:02AM (2 children)
Perhaps you are too young to remember how the "class war" of the 1970's pretty much destroyed the country.
We have a different third party now, but otherwise its much the same. They get no media coverage, so I don't know their views on gays or dogs.
Actually, we also we have a Green party who believe the problem is people, so we should get rid of the people. Obviously, only people who want to be got rid of will vote for them.
Is there something about democracy that makes people crazy?
Is that why Americans pronounce it "Dem are crazy?"
* The leader, not the dog AFAICT
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday August 03 2020, @09:25AM
> Perhaps you are too young to remember how the "class war" of the 1970's pretty much destroyed the country.
Plus ca change? Or perhaps you are too young to remember the 1926 Great Strike and the emergence of the labour party?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:28PM
The leader was gay, and a plan developed to rub out his blackmailer, but the assassin hit the blackmailer's Great Dane instead.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @11:57AM
It's also about apathy. The staunch individualism ("my rights", "my beliefs") and the celebration of and magnification of difference(s) ("I'm some type of 'ism") has eroded the pride and ability of Americans to unite under a common and societal cause of any kind.
As Pink Floyd once said, "together we stand, divided we fall". ;-) But it's true (or is it because there is no real objective truth anymore) that our differences and divisions will destroy us from within. History repeating itself along the lines of other major world powers from the past. Perhaps it's just our time as Americans to step aside and let other countries, other world powers take the lead? We've always believed that democracy is the only way, the best way. Maybe there are other ways better than ours because it doesn't look like ours is working out too well.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:13PM
> In a well-ordered society controlled my mask-wearers, they're doing better.
Oh dear!
In a "well-ordered" society the shitbags occupying Leadership roles are lying scumbags just like they are everywhere. They're just shielded by propaganda - unless you are at the bottom of the food chain in which case nom nom nom thank you for donating your kidneys.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 03 2020, @08:00AM (1 child)
Not the only one, though.
Unfortunately, the only one that's available for a society that, unlike others [ourworldindata.org], is not prepared to deal with it. At least, let's hope there will be some learning after, but I won't hold my breath.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @02:16PM
> ...I won't hold my breath.
I see what you did there. :)
If you wear a mask, you're allowed to breathe. :)
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @10:12AM (19 children)
I'm sorry, but most "western" countries are doing fine. The US fucked up bad for some reason, but Canada and the EU are currently doing as well as can be expected as far as the disease is concerned. Yes, some countries in the EU are still having trouble, but most of the EU population is reasonably safe at the moment.
by the way, I'm confused about what you mean by "western". I assume you mean Canada, USA, and the EEA countries.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Opportunist on Monday August 03 2020, @10:52AM (3 children)
Because it seems that our political systems are still doing what they are supposed to. Yes, our parties are bickering usually and our populists are screaming their paroles, but suddenly as soon as this shit hit the fan, even they stopped and became sensible instead of spreading bullshit for petty political gains. And it seems that the people around here don't get their medical information from celebrities (usually celebrities where you wonder what they're famous for, or can someone explain to me what the Kardashians do?) but instead turn to medical professionals for that kind of advice, and fortunately not to quacks with a political agenda but rather their GP they usually trust with their health, who in turn has every incentive to give them a sensible treatment instead of peddling some miracle cure.
Our politicians still retained a modicum of trust in the population, mostly because we do see how they react to our concerns. They tell us what they're going to do and they are going to do it. No empty promises. Yes, people lost jobs here, too, and yes, businesses were struck badly here, too, but governments opened their money bags and ensured that people and small businesses could survive rather than shoving it up the ass of their cronies and "hope" it somehow trickles down instead of vanishing in the pockets of the CEOs.
People here have a reason to expect their government to work for them. People in the US have a reason to expect their government to screw them over.
That is the difference.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Monday August 03 2020, @01:18PM (2 children)
Where is your "here"?
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday August 03 2020, @07:31PM (1 child)
Right now, for me Austria. 9 million people, got hit early in March at pretty much the same time and with the same intensity as Italy (with the same reason, being a huge, high profile holiday resort where the local authorities tried to keep it under wrap 'til they got smacked left and right by the country's government, despite being the same party). A total of 2,360 cases per million, 80 deaths per million. Most of both of them during March and April. Currently 1,600 active cases (177 per million) with a 7 day running death rate flickering between 0 and 1 (hard to make a sensible statement about it, since peopel can't half-die) and about 100-120 new cases per day (yeah, it picked up quite a bit again when the restrictions were lifted), which amounts to 13 new cases per million and is about on par with recoveries per day.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday August 06 2020, @06:34PM
Thanks for the details. Too many people say "here" when no one knows where they are except themselves.
I thought you might have been talking about Quebec, where I live.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:35PM (14 children)
I'd add that some parts of the US are doing much better than others. Mostly the Northeast, because we got hit early (because of wide use of public transport and high population density) and saw the carnage that ensued.
As such, while it's not everyone, *most* people are being really careful -- wearing masks, staying at least 2m away from others, and not gathering in groups *indoors*.
The areas where we see low infection rates right now have large numbers of folks who see that we need to work together, protecting each other, not whinging about "muh rights!" and "gub'mint overreach!"
No one can force you to care about your neighbors and fellow Americans. But like it or not, we share this country. And if we want to get this virus under control, we need to work together as Americans. For all of us.
It makes me sad that many people only see it as "fuck you Jack! I'm all right," even though that will just extend and worsen this pandemic.
More's the pity.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:36PM (13 children)
Most people in the northeast are already immune. That is why it spreads slowly there now. Like 30-80% of people have pre existing t cell immunity, so only 10-20% of the population gets covid before herd immunity sets in.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @04:46PM (1 child)
I'd say more like 10-90% ballpark.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:01PM
Depends where you live.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity [sciencemag.org]
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-35331/v1%20 [researchsquare.com]
Why are there so many anti-science retards on this site?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:47PM (10 children)
And where did you get those numbers? AFAIK, *Antibody* testing isn't being done on any wide scale, nor is the much more involved (and accurate) T-Cell testing.
The tests being done are viral tests to see if you are infected *right now*. And, just like the rest of the US, it's taking way too long to get results back. In some cases, 7-14 days. Which is, of course, worse than useless.
So I ask again, where do you get these numbers to claim that 30-80% are immune? Other than from your rectal cavity?
Please, do tell.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:55PM (9 children)
The refs were posted here:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=38801&commentsort=0&mode=threadtos&threshold=-1&highlightthresh=-1&page=1&cid=1030791#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
Also, there are cross-reactive antibodies found in 5-10% of adults and much higher (up to 60%) of school children:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.14.095414v2 [biorxiv.org]
If all these lockdowns and other measures continue for long enough all this immunity is going away and the problem will be 2-5x worse than it was in April.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:31PM (8 children)
Except the references linked don't say what you think they do.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity [sciencemag.org]
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-35331/v1 [researchsquare.com]
What was that you were saying? Nothing useful or important.
kthxbai.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:52PM (7 children)
So now t-cell immunity doesnt confer protection either? Just like the WHO tweeted about antibodies... What is the point of it if not to confer protection like for every other virus?
Also, no idea what the second quote is supposed to prove. Can you clarify what you think it says?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:12PM (6 children)
Your semi-literacy is not my problem. It's yours.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:24PM (5 children)
Well you quoted something that says the cross reactive t-cells originally raised towards cold viruses are important for proper immune response. So, I guess you agree with me then...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:52PM (4 children)
English, motherfucker. Can you read it? Apparently not.
Your ignorance is stunning. Get a clue. If you can. I won't hold my breath.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:14PM (3 children)
"Rather, diversity of T-cell responses in terms of recognition rate of SARS-CoV-2 T-cell epitopes was decreased in patients with more severe COVID-19 symptoms (Fig. 4h, Extended Data Fig. 4b), providing evidence that development of protective immunity requires recognition of multiple SARS- CoV-2 epitopes."
Whatever, you apparently have no idea what those words you quoted mean. I hope for your sake you are trolling instead of being profoundly stupid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @11:57PM (2 children)
This means that while SARS COV2 *may* share epitopes [britannica.com] with other Coronaviruses, antibodies must be able to identify/connect to multiple epitopes, some that are unique to SARS COV2 in order to convey significant levels of immunity. Which fully supports what I said. Which is why I quoted it in the first place.
You're a troll and/or a moron. Don't care which. No more feeding for you, asshole. Get back under your bridge!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @12:30AM
It means if you had prior immunity to other coronaviruses that cross react with sars2, then you have "diversity of T-cell responses", which is evidence for "protective immunity".
So no, that is not what you said.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @12:33AM
Also it was about t-cells, not even about antibodies. It is so obvious you have no idea what you read.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Opportunist on Monday August 03 2020, @10:59AM (1 child)
Because we augment individualism to some sort of ersatz religion. Everyone has to be a special snowflake. No matter whether that means you're behaving in the kind of special that belongs on the short bus. We are at the point where even listening to someone making an argument is already considered "conformism", with conformism itself being already an insult. Everybody wants to be different. Even if that means they are just differently able.
Funny enough, this usually leads to them just following some other bullshit peddler. Because as much as these people worship individualism, they don't know enough to actually form their own opinion. So instead the train of thought is "A is mainstream, so it's bad. This guy says B, so it has to be right because it's not what the mainstream tells me". I do not fully understand it myself, but I attribute it to a curious reaction of our brain when you figure something out: It releases dopamine. Unfortunately I can't find the study anymore, but figuring out something and understanding something are actually things that cause us to experience a happy. Now, for some people, understanding something comes only very rarely. Often never. Understanding our world is difficult and many things have very, very complex structures that are not easily understood. Twice so if you have deficites in the general areas required to understand something.
Understanding is dependent on learning. And that seems to be really, really hard for a lot of people. So having easy explanations for complex matters is actually very attractive to them, because that allows them to understand something.
And dopamine is one hell of a drug.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:17PM
Parasitic wasps. Are a thing.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 03 2020, @01:25PM
Being a worker bee is ideal: if you live in a hive.
As population soars, particularly in the urban areas, the hive mentality is the winning one - for that environment.
Too bad Frank Lloyd Wright's Broadacre concept didn't mesh with suburban financing models.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by sjames on Monday August 03 2020, @01:51PM
We could still manage OK with individualism if we could jettison some of the greed and selfishness. Or perhaps childishness is a better description of the problem.
It is entirely possible to be a rugged individualist and still recognize an obligation to the greater good and show a modicum of courtesy to others. Deciding reality isn't real isn't individualism, it's stupidity (or mental illness). You can be an individual without being an ass about it.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by driverless on Monday August 03 2020, @01:25PM (3 children)
Some of the countries that have handled this best are non-western. Their medical systems may be a shambles held together with duct tape, but they trust their medical experts and listen to their government officials. As a result you get countries like Ghana where you'd expect it would be catastrophic (massive overcrowding, poor infrastructure) but that have handled it quite well, a death toll so low that they acknowledge each one individually, a few hundred dead from 30-odd million people. Another example is Bulgaria, the most corrupt country in Europe and a dysfunctional medical system, with again just a few hundred dead. It'll be interesting when this is over to see analyses about which style of society handles something like this best, and why.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday August 03 2020, @01:58PM (1 child)
The problem with that is it means trusting "cause of death" returns.
Another thing is that you need to consider the age structure of the population.
There's lots of reasons that things might be non-representative due to data being collected differently. The most reliable figure is probably death rate/10000. Most places report that fairly accurately. But that isn't going to tell you about cases that don't kill people, but do cause lasting, perhaps permanent, injury. Antibody tests don't seem to work for that either, as antibodies appear to go away quickly. TCell tests might be reasonable, but those are difficult and expensive.
It appears that the best strategy is to really avoid getting it until after a good vaccine has appeared, you've been vaccinated, and you've waited two weeks for you immunity to develop. That means lots of isolation until that happens. So societies that encourage that happening will do better. There can be multiple ways for that to be encouraged, but they all depend on a government or group that's reasonably trusted for reasonable reasons.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:36PM
Oh how classic. The GP explains how people in those country trust their experts, and your rebuttal is "but I don't trust them!".
Here's the dirty little secret: no one cares. Go flaunt your independence in your own backyard, and stop pissing in other people's pools.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday August 03 2020, @05:15PM
Interestingly, according to Google, the primary causes of death in Ghana are lower respiratory tract infections and tuberculosis, so "some lung problem killed em" could be randomly checkmarked COVID or just BAU.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:34PM
"The West" was White when it was "The West".