Unredacted suit shows Google's own engineers confused by privacy settings:
In 2018, the Associated Press reported that Maps and some other Google services (on both iPhone and Android) were storing users' location data even when users had explicitly turned Location History off.
"There are a number of different ways that Google may use location to improve people's experience, including: Location History, Web and App Activity, and through device-level Location Services," a Google spokesperson told the AP at the time. "We provide clear descriptions of these tools, and robust controls so people can turn them on or off, and delete their histories at any time."
Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich's office launched its own investigation following the AP report, and in May 2020 the state sued Google, alleging that the company violated the Arizona Consumer Fraud Act.
The initial lawsuit was heavily redacted, as the Arizona Mirror reports. But following an August 3 petition from trade groups Digital Content Next and the News Media Alliance, the judge has ordered several documents related to the case to be unsealed, and a new, less-redacted version of the suit is now available.
The new version of the suit (PDF) includes a number of employee emails and chat logs where Google employees agreed with the AP story, and these employees highlighted their own frustrations with the settings. Among the highlights:
- "The current UI feels like it is designed to make things possible, yet difficult enough that people won't figure it out."
- "Some people (including even Googlers) don't know that there is a global switch and a per-device switch."
- "Indeed we aren't very good at explaining this to users. Add me to the list of Googlers who didn't understand how this worked and was surprised when I read the article ... we shipped a UI that confuses users."
- "I agree with the article. Location off should mean location off, not except for this case or that case."
"Speaking as a user, WTF?" another employee said, in additional documentation obtained by the Arizona Mirror. "More specifically I **thought** I had location tracking turned off on my phone. So our messaging around this is enough to confuse a privacy focused (Google software engineer). That's not good."
Also at news.com.au
(Score: 4, Touché) by legont on Tuesday September 01 2020, @10:10AM (2 children)
Western world lawyers don't always understand the law and sometimes have to go all the ways to Supreme Court to get it explained. It's the law a Joe Six Pack is always supposed to understand and follow.
Google engineers are not supposed to be any different.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @12:20PM (1 child)
Does IRS know how to fill out a tax form?
Nancy Pelosi says we have to pass legislation in order to find out what's in it.
We have to load software and trust its not malicious, with no recourse if it is.
Under the law our Congress is passing, it's ripe for gaming to legally mandated ignorant people.
Mandated by law passed by those very Congressmen. Both Democrats and Republicans. Both of which made Podium Promises that they would fight for us.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @01:10PM
"Both of which made Podium Promises that they would fight for us."
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this.
Politicians only care about themselves.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Booga1 on Tuesday September 01 2020, @12:02PM (2 children)
Not good? No, it's perfect! From management's perspective that tells them they got it exactly right.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:38PM (1 child)
Precisely and as long as companies are allowed to get away with this they will continue to do it. Confusion isn't a legitimate way of gaining consent. Same goes for when they make you opt out of tracking every time, but allow you to opt in permanently.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday September 02 2020, @04:16AM
Yeah, and Android has plenty of dark patterns. One of the worst is the option to restrict background transfers. I like that option. Shuts down a whole lot of spying. But Google has set it up so that the option is way too easy to accidentally deactivate, blast them. Just touch the message that Android glues to your screen, and poof! the option is off. Dozens of times, I've accidentally deactivated it just trying to get my phone out of my pocket.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @12:50PM (12 children)
regarding privacy confusion:
My indoor Google Nest cameras are configured for being turned on manually in the Nest app by clicking "home" and "away"
This past weekend those cameras had a bad case of seemingly randomly turning themselves on (and sometimes off if the camera was blocked) - it's more well behaved now that I put an index card in front of each camera while I'm home which leads me to question whether or not it was a person turning things on and off or if it was a software bug
This past weekend I lost trust in those cameras - other people are reporting the same issue in Nest forums
If people can't get on/off switch software to work consistently and correctly 100.0% of the time, I'm certainly not going to trust software attempts at driving cars
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @01:14PM
My laptop and tablets have a piece of paper in front of them. We have cameras around the outside perimeter of the house but no indoor cameras.
Yeah, I don't trust devices not to spy on me. No matter what I always assume that some unsuspecting person is on the other end of any camera in my possession.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday September 01 2020, @01:16PM (10 children)
I stopped there.
You are nuts; even more, in an absolutely not funny way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:03PM (8 children)
some people live in the bad part of town and want video record of who stole their things
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:28PM (2 children)
That still does not explain why you would send a 24/7 video feed to google.... The google business model revolves around selling your private data to whoever they can.
(Score: 3, Funny) by barbara hudson on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:34PM
Exhibitionist who wants to livestream while having an excuse that "it's googles fault."
You have o e of these in your home you're better off iin the long run f someone steals it.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:40PM
Somebody should do a kickstarter to get these in the homes of as many fat uggos as possible. That will show Google and law enforcement.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:30PM (4 children)
And with someone wearing a hoodie, sunglasses, and a mask, your camera is useless unless they forget to remove their name tag.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:44PM (2 children)
that is unless they've discovered the magic of bacon. Dogs are generally pretty useless for security and most burglars know that already. Anybody breaking into a home where they expect people are isn't going to be deterred by a dog. And dogs spend so much time barking at random things that people just tune them out after a while.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday September 01 2020, @03:52PM
The dog isn't there to protect property, so much as to protect YOU. I have two dogs now. One is sweet and loving, and would probably run off to hide if a threat were to appear. Her sister, the alpha, is a lot less sweet. She's very protective, and no one is coming in the yard or the house without challenge. No one is going to offer violence to a member of the household without challenge. The sweet and loving sister will follow alpha's lead though, so if alpha goes for your throat, sister will probably be going for your balls.
The dogs don't care about any of the stuff in the house. "Give me bacon, take whatever you want!"
Hail to the Nibbler in Chief.
(Score: 2) by toddestan on Wednesday September 02 2020, @10:52PM
If a thief is determined to break into your home for some reason, a dog isn't really going to deter them. But if they are just breaking into random homes to steal whatever they can easily get their hands on, they are more than likely just going to skip a house with a dog when there's plenty of houses where there isn't a dog.
(Score: 2) by Booga1 on Tuesday September 01 2020, @09:42PM
That's pretty much it. I once came home wearing a puffy jacket, gloves, sunglasses, and hat. The dog which normally greets me at the door turned from the usual happy dog into a very nervous wreck. She was barking at me non-stop until I took off the hat and glasses and she recognized me. Even if she wouldn't attack, I sure as heck would know if anyone was breaking in, and she'd make such a fuss the neighbors would know something's up as well.
(Score: 2) by leon_the_cat on Tuesday September 01 2020, @02:06PM
So crazy he made me agree with you. Now I need shower :P
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday September 02 2020, @12:16AM (1 child)
This is sheer stupidity, including most of the quoted Google employees. Yes, Google occasionally hires stupid people, especially the non-engineers.
The entire confusion here is that some people don't understand that turning off a setting in one app doesn't affect other apps. Specifically, they thought that turning off the feature called "Location History" [1] in the Maps app disables any and all metadata collection that includes location across all applications and services owned by Google.
[1]: This feature allows you to view a timeline of where you have been, a location history if you will.
I suppose these are the same people buying a monitor at the electronics store and then complaining that their computer doesn't work.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by toddestan on Wednesday September 02 2020, @10:57PM
Android (and mobile in general) is just full of dark patterns like this. Maybe you see through them, or more likely you think you see through them, but they are designed intentionally and deliberately to make you think that you're doing something when in actuality they don't do that or do something else entirely. That these settings are confusing to Google engineers who should know this stuff better than most anyone else really demonstrates that the normal user doesn't have a chance.