from the who-rubbed-it-the-wrong-way? dept.
The Genetic Engineering Genie Is Out of the Bottle:
Usually good for a conspiracy theory or two, U.S. President Donald Trump has suggested that the virus causing COVID-19 was either intentionally engineered or resulted from a lab accident at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. Its release could conceivably have involved an accident, but the pathogen isn't the mishmash of known viruses that one would expect from something designed in a lab, as a research report in Nature Medicine conclusively lays out. "If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," the researchers said.
But if genetic engineering wasn't behind this pandemic, it could very well unleash the next one. With COVID-19 bringing Western economies to their knees, all the world's dictators now know that pathogens can be as destructive as nuclear missiles. What's even more worrying is that it no longer takes a sprawling government lab to engineer a virus. Thanks to a technological revolution in genetic engineering, all the tools needed to create a virus have become so cheap, simple, and readily available that any rogue scientist or college-age biohacker can use them, creating an even greater threat. Experiments that could once only have been carried out behind the protected walls of government and corporate labs can now practically be done on the kitchen table with equipment found on Amazon. Genetic engineering—with all its potential for good and bad—has become democratized.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @10:13PM
Now Mohammed al-Jihadi can really be a nuisance.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Thexalon on Wednesday September 23 2020, @10:16PM (3 children)
For instance, when Mike at the office got tired of having his lunch stolen from the fridge, he made sure to sneeze on it when he had a cold, and in short order the culprit was discovered.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @10:49PM (2 children)
Yes but which sandwiches did you prefer... the grilled buffalo cauliflower, smashed chickpea with avocado or ham and double cheese?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:48AM (1 child)
Ham, cheese, and avocado.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:34PM
That's the one he wiped his ass on.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @10:42PM (4 children)
You debunk a theory by falsifying, what does the article say...
Thanks for falsifying selection pressure induced via replication from cell culture in a lab. I bet this guy is one of those science guys huh? It evolved naturally in the human population and also suddenly one day emerged fully formed, like Athena from Zeus' head. Now we just need you to tell us where to inject the bleach!
And if not we could just insert them in a lab [nih.gov] like we already did with SARS-1? Funny how that possibility was omitted.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by ikanreed on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:57AM (3 children)
You're mixing up two kinds of science work.
One is deriving new knowledge about how the universe works by creating theories and applying a rigorous framework of testing to them. This is called a number of things, but "experimental research" is the most common term.
The other is using well established scientific knowledge and tools to make a determination of facts without introducing any new theories to the world. This is often called "observational research" or sometimes just "testing"
If you act like they're the same, you'll get a cancer diagnosis because your immunoglobulin count in your blood work hints at a spreading tumor and say to the doctor "You didn't falsify my theory that I'm just feeling tired today"
It's a fucking bullshit overextrapolation of middle school philosophy of science.
And, in fact, the reason they came to this conclusion was a bit of the former method, they were trying to reject the null hypothesis of your stupid, goddamn baby brained conspiracy theory, by trying to rule out wild type mutation and failing. Because it's a wild type mutation, you absolute simpleton.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @12:20PM (2 children)
You can't read.
Nothing here rules out selection occurring in-vitro, they're using weasel words to obfuscate the issue and attempting to disprove a strawman. Nobody knowledgeable is suggesting the virus was engineered ("purposeful manipulation") as a bioweapon, that's not how GOF research works.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Thursday September 24 2020, @02:36PM (1 child)
Reinforcing my "You don't have even a modicum of understanding of the philosophy of science" is the fact that you don't know what a null hypothesis is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:53PM
Reinforcing the fact you can't read, they tested no null hypothesis because the results from lab mutation and wild mutation for ACE-2 affinity would be identical in all but time frame. What are the time frames and how do they compare to what do we know of the emergence of the virus?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @11:05PM (12 children)
That's why I always claimed, and still maintain, that the human species, and in fact, all intelligent lifeforms, past, present and future, on this and other planets, are an evolutionnary dead-end.
Because, eventually, all technologically advanced species will find a way to wipe themselves out. In fact, they'll do so multiple times, repeatedly.
And when they do, someone, somewhere, will do it. In ten years, a hundred, a thousand. But they will do it.
The instant someone comes out with a way to destroy their own species, that species is already as good as dead.
Stop looking for an explanation to Fermi's paradox. This is the explanation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @11:18PM (1 child)
Wasn't this the plot of Prometheus?
(Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Thursday September 24 2020, @12:21PM
No, they wiped themselves out by only being able to run straight ahead.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2020, @11:35PM (1 child)
But what if those deaths are necessary to spread life throughout the cosmos? Sure the "intelligent" life obliterated themselves spectacularly but the resultant explosion launched some hardy bacteria in every direction ...
Maybe we're just part of some single celled space fairing bacteria's life cycle?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:41PM
What explosion?
An extinction event on a planet caused by a bioweapon or natural disease doesn't explode into space does it?
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:01AM (1 child)
Only if we don't evolve/advance enough to keep the minimum proximity limit vs destruction mechanism under control.
If the species always advances its technology to able to disperse and create enough proximity to keep out of reach of its total destructive capability, it won't die off.
As it is we're all stuck on this rock and have enough weapons/capability to kill off everyone. If we collectively as a species have invested in the space exploration/colonization for the last 30-40 years, we'd have at least some of the species off this rock by now in a semi-sustainable way such that even if this place goes to hell, there's enough to re-seed. Alas here we are bickering about AGW. AGW is real, but its not the only thing that can kill off our species. We should obviously address it in parallel to prioritizing the survival of our species beyond this rock.
But at this rate, we can't seem to agree and suspend our self interest enough to do anything collectively. So yea at this rate the mortality of our species doesn't look good - that does _not_ mean all intelligent lifeforms is an evolutionary dead-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:52PM
AGW won't kill off our species. Even this level of warming won't cause humans to go extinct: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/08/earths-scorching-hot-history/566762/ [theatlantic.com]
But Venus level warming could.
As for killer viruses. A single low funded lab killing billions could be possible. End of modern tech society as we know it? Possible too.
But it's going to be difficult to kill ALL 7 billion of us with viruses alone. Viruses that kill fast burn out. Viruses that don't kill/sicken fast, often eventually evolve to kill even slower till there are more survivors. Because virus strains that kill/sicken their hosts fast tend to be more likely to die out than those that don't.
So you might need more resources than a small time terrorist has to artificially spread multiple viruses to achieve extinction.
But I agree that if we truly want to delay our inevitable extinction for longer our goal should be developing space colony tech. The Mars stuff is more of a costly distraction at our current tech level.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:01AM (4 children)
On a similar note, as soon as one civilization discovers another it has no choice but to try to exterminate it.
The reason is simple. We evolve exponentially. Therefore the difference between two also evolves exponentially. Hence no matter how weak the discovered one is, by the time we actually meet it may be in position to destroy us.
The very second we are discovered in the galaxy we will be fired upon all out style.
https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032 [amazon.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Mykl on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:36AM (3 children)
Disagree. There are plenty of examples [wikipedia.org] of civilizations on Earth today that we are actively not trying to exterminate.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday September 24 2020, @11:07PM (2 children)
I would recommend you read the book. The issue here is the speed of light. By the time we actually meet, the technological level and intentions are way off any reasonable assumptions. Therefore the worse has to be assumed. That's the short version of a more than 1000 pages of excellent science fiction.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Monday September 28 2020, @01:44AM (1 child)
I'm sure it's a great book, but I don't think you can hold up one Sci Fi author's opinions as a certainty about how the situation will unfold. I could just as well quote Iain Banks' Culture novels right back at you.
And I disagree that we have to assume the worst - if that were the case then all of the tribes in my linked article would've been exterminated by now.
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday September 29 2020, @01:25PM
I referenced a science fiction book for challenged who can't read 600 pages of the original research, but use propaganda text books.
Here it is again. An invaluable view of how the US was actually developed.
https://www.amazon.com/Cadillac-Desert-American-Disappearing-Revised/dp/0140178244 [amazon.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:39PM
Basically, once it becomes technologically possible for an individual to veto the existence of their race, sooner or later, someone will do so. Maybe in 10 years. Maybe in 100.
The thing about biological weapons is that we now know that there are a large enough group of selfish people ("my freedom"), that it is impossible to prevent the infection from spreading out of control. With a sufficiently good bio weapon, the single individual creator combined with the "my freedom" crowd, will ensure the extinction of the race. I might not be "my freedom", but also a denial or rejection of the basic scientific principles.
If it's not a bioweapon, then eventually it will be climate change. We'll wreck the planet for our comfort and the stock market.
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
(Score: 3, Troll) by stretch611 on Wednesday September 23 2020, @11:09PM (1 child)
With the assumption that they want to create a more potent version of Covid...
Those of us that have had it might start getting some immunity. (It is debatable how much immunity and how long it lasts... but there is some benefit.)
In addition, their will be a vaccine. I am not sure when... I do not expect it be Nov 3rd like some idiots... but it will happen. It will also convey some immunity to Covid-19.
Assuming that they modify Covid 19 into something else, likely it would be similiar... Will it be so similar that people with coivid-19 immunity not be affected. Likely that These people will have at least some resistance to coronavirus strains. Especially if the vaccine will attack how the corona actually attaches itself to the cell walls.
Also, the assumption of this is that we will still have trump around. (God, I hope not.) Believe it or not, most presidents would have actually done something effective. Like actually get testing done right... Listen to experts on things like masks, and shutdowns... Or actually stocking the strategic stockpile as he was warned, and not fire experts who actually try to give correct information. Trump himself is responsible for the absolutely horrendous response in the US. Every other 1st world country, none are nearly as bad as the US. (We have 4% of the world population, yet 25% of the worlds cases.)
It would not be nearly as effective if we have decent leadership. Not to say that it would not make any impact... but it likely will not have the nearly the same impact as covid 19.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 0) by HammeredGlass on Thursday September 24 2020, @02:58AM
Does no one teach what Federalism means anymore in schools and that Trump adhered to it while providing support to the states and being vilified for the real efforts made to prevent the spread from China just as people like Coumo were ordering positive cases into nursing homes?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @12:07AM (17 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @12:27AM (2 children)
OTOH, COVID-19 has accomplished great political, social and economic upheaval, despite minimal lethality.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:53AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:39PM
No, Covid didn't do that. Seditious politicians, sycophantic Suited Whores and groveling, cowardly slaves did that.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by ikanreed on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:59AM (1 child)
Counterpoint: it seems to be quite discriminant against countries without a functioning, organized government that gives a shit about its people. That's a lot of power if you're a functioning organized government that gives a shit about your people.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @02:06AM
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:05AM (9 children)
So what? Currently it's about 1000 dead enemies for one American dead solder. 50/50 or even 90/10 would be a great progress for most of the world.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:27AM (8 children)
Winning wars is not so much about how many people you can kill. That's useful only in so far as it can convince the enemy that the prospect of high casualties is worse than giving you whatever objective you want. The US military had a pretty damn high kill ratio in Vietnam but it didn't help win the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people or achieve the other political goals the United States set out to achieve. It rather hardened the resolve of the Viet Cong.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:48AM (7 children)
In the future, creating an infectious disease could become as easy as downloading a file and pressing a button to synthesize a virus or bacterium. Then you can infect yourself and others with it. That would put it within the reach of low skill individuals without coherent strategic and political goals.
By contrast, a Timothy McVeigh scale bombing requires significant effort and skill to acquire and deploy explosives, and a nuclear bomb requires fissionable nuclear material.
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:00AM (6 children)
???? Significant effort, my left testicle. Any moron (and that term applies here) can put together a fertilizer bomb and drive it in their pick-up truck into the building of choosing. On the scale of effort, it's marginally above simply driving said pick-up into a crowd of people.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to finish reading what the other pro-"bio-warfare" replicants and empathy-impaired here have to say.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @10:05AM (2 children)
Any moron can get two tons of fertilizer without being noticed?
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Thursday September 24 2020, @10:45AM
Congratulations! You have just worked your way down from "moron" to "imbecile" [wikipedia.org]!
Do you think McVeigh just went to the Home Depot singlehandedly one day, credit card in hand, and said "yeh, I'd like 2300Kg of your finest nitrate-based fertilizer...I got a big garden"?
Analysing further, that's really not an unreasonable amount for a commercial farming outfit.
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Thursday September 24 2020, @11:07AM
I apologise for the "imbecile" crack...that was uncalled for.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:44PM (2 children)
Timothy McVeigh was a true American hero. You don't get to shoot a mom in the head while she is holding her baby, shoot a 10 yr old boy in the back after killing his dog (Ruby Ridge, Idaho), or burn men, women and children alive (Waco, Tx.) and get away with without paying.
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:57PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahhh...ah, you're serious. That explains that smell...of Michigan Militia.
Don't you have a state capitol to hold under siege in defense of outright stupidity...or maybe a first cousin to make out with?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:59PM
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:00AM
On the other hand, people don't think through the consequences of their actions, and are often driven by obscurities like internal faction politics. Sooner or later someone will think a pandemic is a good idea to achieve whatever they are trying to achieve.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:48PM
Does that really matter if the voices in your head told you to do it?
Or visions, dreams, or whatever.
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fakefuck39 on Thursday September 24 2020, @12:44AM (3 children)
this is why conspiracy theorists are usually idiots. yes, some dictator is going to engineer a deadly virus with equipment from amazon. we have many deadly viruses and bacteria readily available that can be released without any engineering. engineering which does not take equipment from amazon - it takes a team of the world's top scientists to even come up with a genome for a working virus. that's like saying anyone can build an airplane because aluminum and screwdrivers can be ordered on amazon.
what a retard-rant. oh look, it's a science article by some idiot on foreignpolicy.com. next up, a long lost book on artificial intelligence and quantum computing written by steve irvin, the australian alligator dead guy, exposes concerns of the terminator killing michelle obama before she's able to get a serving of fruit into school lunches.
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:03AM
No. It's from Walmart! 🤣 Yeah, yeah, I got your point...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:52PM
I don't think that will happen.
I think you'll be able to upload the bio molecules you want to fabricate, and the results will be shipped to you overnight. That way you have access to better equipment, without the capital outlay to own it.
Today you can have small quantity custom circuit boards fabricated and drilled. In some cases, with specific parts mounted and soldered. Why not similar offerings for biochemists? Should only electronics enthusiasts have all the DIY fun?
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:12PM
Yes there's no need to build your own virus when there are plenty of existing ones. BUT they can be made more dangerous or deadlier etc. For example, you could have them hop between various species and/or evolve a few times till you get the characteristics you want and/or "oops" people start dropping dead...
Last but not least it doesn't take a dictator to make a virus more deadly and/or dangerous virus. It could be just a scientist wanting to publish a paper:
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/health/fearing-terrorism-us-asks-journals-to-censor-articles-on-virus.html [nytimes.com]
Imagine if millions or billions died not because of a Dictator or terrorist org but just because someone wanted to publish...
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @01:00AM
We just may make that 1978 Analog short story about an Earth devastated by genetic engineering a reality...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:19PM (1 child)
Someday a prankster will unleash a virus that leaves everybody with a 12-inch wanker, including women.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:53PM
Someday an Incel will unleash a virus that selectively targets by gender.
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.