Vitamin deficiencies linked to respiratory conditions, including COVID-19:
Oct. 27 (UPI) -- Increasing vitamins A, E and D through diet changes or supplements reduces a person's risk for breathing and respiratory conditions, including flu and COVID-19, a study published Tuesday by the journal BMJ Nutrition Prevention & Health found.
People who consumed recommended amounts of the three key nutrients were less likely to develop the flu, colds, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and asthma, the data showed.
Research has linked vitamin D, in particular, with boosting immune system function, and being deficient in the nutrient has been found to increase a person's risk for severe COVID-19.
Vitamins A, E and D -- as well as vitamin C -- are all considered micronutrients, meaning they are needed in relatively small doses to live.
[...] Major dietary sources of vitamin A include liver, whole milk and cheese, as well as carrots, dark green leafy vegetables and orange-colored fruits, while vegetable oils, nuts and seeds are primary sources of vitamin E.
Adequate intake of vitamin D through diet is more difficult to achieve, given that it is not found naturally in most foods, though it can be acquired by spending time in the sun. But people often take supplements to ensure adequate levels of the vitamin, the researchers said.
Journal Reference:
Suzana Almoosawi, Luigi Palla. Association between vitamin intake and respiratory complaints in adults from the UK National Diet and Nutrition Survey years 1–8 [open], BMJ Nutrition, Prevention & Health (DOI: 10.1136/bmjnph-2020-000150) direct link
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:24PM (13 children)
What is a good vegan source of vitamin D, for us basement dwellers?
(Score: 2, Informative) by SvenErik on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:38PM (1 child)
Fungi [wikipedia.org].
"Every demand is a prison, and wisdom is only free when it asks nothing." Sir Bertrand Russell
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:11PM
With the note that the mushrooms need to grow outside, they themselves rely on sunlight/UV to synthesize it. I doubt the ones grown inside have enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:46PM
UV-B lamps, but it needs to be done carefully, considering the lamp's strength, distance, time on, etc. I'm just guessing but it would seem that many short doses over a day would be better than one or two longer ones.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:33PM
Just a small glass of whole milk and 20 min of sunlight a day is way way more then needed. Even once a week would be sufficient.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:10PM
Vegan sources would include mushrooms, like Portobello and morel, anything vegan that has been fortified, like vegan "milks" and many meat substitutes, and light therapy.
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:18AM (7 children)
Your mother answered this many times when you were young: go play outside.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:05AM
lame
(Score: 2) by Kell on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:53AM (5 children)
Yeah, but how are they going to sell that?
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:12AM (4 children)
Sports gear
Waterproof/outdoors gear
(TV Sports)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1087391/global-sports-market-size/ [statista.com]
> In 2018, the global sports market was valued at approximately 471 billion U.S. dollars
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:59AM (3 children)
Fishing gear!
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday October 29 2020, @07:34PM (2 children)
Is fishing a sport?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:45PM
Are sport coats worn for sporting?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @02:25AM
The only one worth playing. You can even do it while drunk or asleep. And bring home dinner to boot.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:36PM (11 children)
Antioxidants get depleted in times of oxidative stress and you need more than usual to avoid deficiency. There is nothing more obvious than this.
(Score: 4, Informative) by HiThere on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:14PM (8 children)
That isn't just off-topic, it's wrong. SOME vitamins have anti-oxidative properties as one of their modes of action, and there are many anti-oxidants that aren't vitamins.
Also, too much anti-oxitive is bad for the immune system. Targeted oxidative stress is one of the ways the immune system deals with infections.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:26PM (7 children)
Please tell me which vitamin is not an antioxidant.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:19PM (6 children)
Vitamin B7, also known as biotin, is not an anti-oxidant. Biotin being considered a vitamin is debatable, because a small amount is normally bio-synthesized by gut bacteria.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @07:38PM (5 children)
Just looking at the molecule you can tell it will be an antioxidant.
https://pmlegacy.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24045863 [nih.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:03PM (4 children)
If you actually read the things you cite, you'd notice that that doesn't say biotin is an antioxidant, but that it "mediates" the response in the medical sense of the term. But by that definition, practically everything is an antioxidant and the term is essentially meaningless.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:27AM (3 children)
By mediate you mean donates electrons to quench free radicals?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @02:58AM (2 children)
No, because that isn't the medical definition of "mediate." But nice attempt to sneak that definition through.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @05:43AM (1 child)
Its the biochem definition of mediate. The medical definition is apparently nonsense then.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @06:23AM
No, they are just different. Just like legal mediation doesn't require you to give up your free electrons to quench the other party's free radicals.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:38AM (1 child)
> There is nothing more obvious than this.
The only more obvious thing would be Vitamin C guy showing up to revive an old defunct theory requiring mega doses of Vitamin C.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:49AM
The defunct theory that vitamin c corrects vitamin c deficiency? Theres also this theory that putting air in a tire corrects a deflated tire.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:40PM (39 children)
Wow, 0% of people taking vitamin C had any respiratory condition. The only people getting sick were those who do not take vitamin c.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:02PM (35 children)
Why is this troll?
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:53PM
You must be new here.
Sarcasm aside, there are actual trolls who have the power to apply troll downmod and they think they're all kewl and powerful. It helps them relieve that pent up ego. It's their form of cyber masturbation.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:54PM (32 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:02PM (31 children)
There is nothing backwards about this, nor is there a claim that "no one taking vitamin C ever got sick".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:08PM (25 children)
That's a case of affirming the consequent. If A, then B. A. Therefore B. This is a fallacy. That said, I see no reason why taking your vitamins would hurt, and have been on 2000IU of D3, 2-3 grams of C, a B complex, and some magnesium every day for several months now.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:30PM (19 children)
How is it affirming the consequent? No deduction is performed at all. It is a descriptive statement about this data.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:50PM (18 children)
"The only people getting sick were those who do not take vitamin c."
As others have said, your point quoted above is not scientifically accurate. You would have to show that the people with respiratory issues were vitamin C deficient. It points towards a new hypothesis they should test, but you drew conclusions from incomplete data. Hence the problem with using supposed common sense when running experiments.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:52PM (4 children)
The only people that got sick in the study were ones not taking vitamin c. Why is there such confusion on this site about an obvious fact?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:07AM (3 children)
You probably already know this, but you come off as a total troll.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @10:10AM (2 children)
Correct people must seem like trolls to those who parrot DNC talking points that are wrong about everything.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:04PM
You are threatening their glorious new life of not having to go to work and still getting paid. That won't please them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:44AM
Ah ha! Confirmation that you're just a trolling partisan hack. At least 3 people put in real effort to explain the issue with your statement and it wasn't some attempt to silence you or cast doubt on your conclusion beyond being scientifically accurate.
You types sure do love your conspiracies that make you feel important enough for people to screw you over.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:18PM (12 children)
A separate study already did. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7447967/ [nih.gov]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:58AM (3 children)
Thank you, good find.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:06PM (2 children)
The mods don't "trust the Science!" here.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:46AM (1 child)
More like false-flag moderation to make it look like conservatives are being persecuted. Totally pathetic, or it points to agents just sowing chaos.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @02:28AM
Register and you can cast your very own bad mods. We don't even require a legit email address.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:31PM (7 children)
Some diseases tend to deplete vitamin C. Consequently, it requires more than a vitamin C deficiency in people with respiratory disease to demonstrate that vitamin C deficiency causes vulnerability to respiratory disease.
Such studies have been done.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:18PM (5 children)
So if a healthy person is deficient in vitamin c we should correct it, but if a sick person is deficient we shouldnt because why?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:17PM (4 children)
That's not what anyone is saying. That is just the strawman you are using to obstruct disagreement with you. People are attacking your correlation == causation claim, not the imagined claim that giving Vitamin C to sick people is an inherently bad idea.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @12:37AM (2 children)
People are throwing meaningless (to them especially) word salad at the wall, in the hope that opponents get tired.
To be "attacking correlation", see, you need to actually exhibit some logic, not just string two sentences together with a specific conjunctive adverb.
Example:
Some thieves tend to bash down doors. Consequently, it requires more than a bashed down door in a robbed house to demonstrate that a lack of door causes vulnerability to thieves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:48AM (1 child)
Yeesh, talk about having your head lodged up your ass.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @06:10PM
Yeah, you still cannot think up anything original even using two-syllable words. Thanks for playing.
Next time, try sticking to single syllables. Or grunts and squeaks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:31AM
So great, lets correct vitamin deficiencies in healthy and sick people then regardless of whether it played a role in causing the illness or resulted from the illness or the reality that its both.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @02:29AM
It definitely causes scurvy, which you probably don't want while you're trying to fight off coronaids.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:37PM (4 children)
You've got to be kidding.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @07:35PM
You wouldn't be a Trumptard, would you?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:14PM (2 children)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent [wikipedia.org]
Do you prefer P and Q instead of A and B? "If P then Q; Q; therefore P." Is that more to your liking? It's still a fallacy no matter how you choose to call the antecedent and consequent.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:37PM
They were pointing out your original model was of MP, not AC. Which is understandable since when you are used to reasoning non-fallaciously, it can be hard to be wrong on purpose. ;)
(Score: 1) by jrial on Friday November 13 2020, @05:24PM
I think he was referring to the fact that you wrote that second statement backwards. Or basically saying the same thing twice. And then stating that that would be a fallacy.
You wrote: "If A then B. A. Therefore B. This is a fallacy.".
What you meant was: "If A then B. B. Therefore A. This is a fallacy."
Lack of coffee... It hits us all sooner or later. :')
Install windows on my workstation? You crazy? Got any idea how much I paid for the damn thing?
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:16PM (4 children)
From TFS:
The scientists did not look for any association between vitamin C and respiratory conditions, and they had no data regarding vitamin C supplement usage by anyone involved in the study cohort . As the scientists clearly said it is not possible to determine any association between vitamin C and respiratory conditions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @09:24PM (3 children)
They did have participants who took vitamin c, just none of them got sick w respiratory problems.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:47PM (2 children)
Do the logistic regression yourself then. The standard error is so massive that the 0 result is not significantly different from the 33 who did get sick without supplementing. Here's a hint: don't forget your Haldane correction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @05:46AM (1 child)
Use a model that cant handle zero cases in one category?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @06:05AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:58PM
If you really want to get down-modded, just say, "I'll have whatever Joe Biden isn't taking."
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:20AM (2 children)
Vitamin C is necessary to make proper use of Vitamin E. Make of that what you will.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @03:18AM
As well as being necessary to absorb iron.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:21PM
True, but no-one in the study was identified as being vitamin C deficient. The researchers did not look for, and in fact they make clear that they do not claim, any connection between vitamin C levels and respiratory conditions in this particular study.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:47PM (80 children)
It is too bad that there is no known way to correct Vitamin Deficiencies.
I thought that Americans had the most vitamin enriched pee in the entire world. I guess I was wrong.
Yet I see store shelves stalked with more vitamins than any sane person could ever take.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 28 2020, @05:59PM (6 children)
Yeah, they have a lot of vitamins on the store shelves. Protip: take the liquid form wherever possible. Those pills go straight through your system, to be flushed down the toilet.
(Score: 5, Funny) by RS3 on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:55PM (1 child)
DannyB: "pee is rich in vitamins"
Runaway: "vitamins best in liquid form"
I don't like where this is heading.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:11PM
Nobody beats the whizz, apparently!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:29PM
No they don't.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:57PM (2 children)
Whenever I am feeling not well - not sick mind you, but just not well - I am taking vitamins. I take lemon squeezed in water, whole 5% Greek yogurt, and an hour outside. Actually I take a few hours outside - hiking with peeled carrots as a snack.
It's more than enough to fix deficiency if any and it feels good.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday October 29 2020, @05:29PM (1 child)
What do you mean by whole 5%? Whole milk greek yogurt or 2% milk greek yogurt or? ? Is there a such thing as 5% milk greek yogurt?
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 4, Interesting) by legont on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:15PM
Unaltered greek yogurt is typically 5% or more fat https://usa.fage/products/yogurt/fage-total-5?gclid=CjwKCAjw0On8BRAgEiwAincsHMqvTKDTXik_X0wy0NV65XMpQ5kFFkPgGTgDP-_dsMe7S08wLlrUzRoCJ8QQAvD_BwE [usa.fage]
Below this is achieved by adding carbs that are typically bad.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:10PM (45 children)
It is medically unethical to correct a vitamin deficiency when someone is sick. There has been no RCT for taking vitamins for respiratory conditions.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:52PM (35 children)
That post is difficult to parse. Unethical to correct a deficiency? Huh, wut, really? Surely AC didn't mean what he posted? Or, he didn't post what he meant?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:04PM (34 children)
Without an RCT of the disease the patient has there is no way to know if correcting the deficiency would be of benefit or harm. It would be highly unethical to give vitamins without an RCT.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:37PM (33 children)
You must be having problems with the English language.
There may be dispute about what constitutes a deficiency and how to best correct it (supplements, fruits, vegetables, foods, etc...) but in English a deficiency means you aren't getting enough of something and and the fact that you aren't getting enough of this thing is resulting in health problems and getting more is what's needed. It's called English.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:46PM (22 children)
For example, covid patients have scurvy levels of vitamin C. Many of the symptoms are also symptoms of scurvy. https://pmlegacy.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7447967/ [nih.gov]
While there is biological plausibility, that has often failed in RCTs. It would be unethical to just correct this deficiency without strong evidence.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:50PM (21 children)
You may be arguing that evidence is needed to determine if a deficiency exists or not and how to determine what constitutes a deficiency and whether someone has one. However a deficiency is still defined as not having enough of something so if you don't have enough of something then more is needed by definition.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:56PM (20 children)
Are you arguing that what is considered deficient levels in healthy people should be considered normal if you are sick?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:08PM (19 children)
Nope. I am arguing what the simple definition of a deficiency is.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:12PM (18 children)
The covid patients were deficient according to the usual definition. But we still shouldn't give them vitamin C because vitamin C has not been shown to benefit covid patients in an RCT.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:01PM (17 children)
I'd question whether it could do harm though.
Now, C can be pro-oxidant as well as anti-oxidant, and without controlled trials we simply cannot know what the general trend would be--and i say general trend because this virus appears to affect different people in different ways, such that something that may help cure one person could well harm another. But it seems like something worth investigating, and I'd like to see the relevant trials done.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:12PM (16 children)
Why would correcting a deficiency do harm? We are talking about normal levels of vitamin C, not super high levels.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:10PM
Not only that, but we're talking about vitamin fucking C! It's common as hell, near impossible to overdose on, and you should probably take some anyway. Medicine should be strict to guard against quackery, but this seems a little too obvious...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:31PM
Because bureaucracy.
Doctors get reprimanded for taking any step away from the party line. Doctors are not reprimanded for any dead COVID patients.
Nowadays the doctors' customer is the state, and you patients are a product. Need someone explain to you how and why it happened?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:08AM (5 children)
I trust the pharmacist over the autistic AC who reads studies like Lt. Broccoli reads the Starfleet medical DB.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @03:19PM
Says the fake guy that confuses quantum non-locality with relativity and hardly ever has a clue what he is talking about.
You're hilarious
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:27PM (3 children)
I WISH I were a pharmacist, but no, poor girls don't go to pharmacy school. I'm just ("just") a technician, though if you've ever worked in a pharmacy you know who does all the real and sometimes all-too-literal heavy lifting. ...and my degree is in earth sciences. All the pharmacology stuff is self-taught.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @02:39AM (2 children)
My stepmother put herself through RN schooling while supporting five other people. On a waitress's wages and tips. But she's a serious badass of a strong woman, so don't take that as me holding you to her standard, just pointing out poor is not a deal breaker on education by any means.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @02:51AM (1 child)
There is a large difference in getting an associate degree and a doctoral degree, though. And there is a large difference between wages vs tuition then and wages vs tuition now.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @03:59AM
You think? Cause a quick check shows tuition where she went to school has damned near exactly doubled since she graduated twenty years ago.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:33AM (7 children)
Again: vitamin C can be pro-oxidative as well as antioxidant in some situations, and we simply do not know which in the context of covid-19 infection. Furthermore, because the virus itself seems to be less of a problem than the body's hyper-activated immune reaction to it, and because different people react differently, there may not *be* a single "context of covid-19 infection" and what cures one will harm or kill another.
I want to see the trials and controlled studies done as well, and I also harbor dark suspicions that certain entities don't want them done because it would eat into their profits, but ethically speaking, you *cannot* try untested and uncontrolled therapies out of the blue. If for no other reason than that even if it turns out to be harmless, you won't have any proof that what you did worked of itself, or whether your cohort got very lucky.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @10:28AM (6 children)
> The use of high dose of intravenous vitamin C for management of COVID-19 in China and the United Stated has shown promising results. There were no reported adverse reactions with the short-term use of high dose of vitamin C.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33113146/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:08PM (1 child)
I've known someone that tried these high dose intravenous vitamin C treatments on cancer. All the doctors thought she was a quack but they administered it to her anyways. Unfortunately this person predictably got worse over time. It's sad because this person was a very smart and nice person. Not sure the status of this person now but I'm guessing this person would have had better prospects if they went the conventional route.
Steve Jobs also tried the alternative medicine route.
I also know people that have survived cancer via conventional routes. I also know at least one person that died from cancer even though they went the conventional route.
Not saying vitamin C supplements are bad or anything. But I'm not a huge believer in these super high dose vitamin stuff unless there are controlled clinical trials.
I'm the same person that's been going over the definition of a deficiency and how it is defined as something that should be corrected. I am in favor of clinical trials and I agree with the people that say they need to be done before we can draw any conclusions though. and I'm not a huge fan of those super high doses of vitamins. Normal doses perhaps for those that are deficient but those super high doses seem like they are coming from those crazy quacks unless you can find data to show they are helpful.
Unfortunately many of the studies on these subjects are not clear. For instance at one time I remember reading about one controlled study that looked like it tried to give one group of ER patients a large one time dose of vitamin D and another group got a placebo and it tried to see the outcome weeks later. It measured their vitamin D levels before the dose, after the dose, and weeks later. It didn't really have strong results and the conclusion seemed to be that it didn't really have much of an effect.
That's a poorly conducted study. They didn't look like they monitored their vitamin D levels throughout the stay, they didn't mention if one or both groups were receiving normal levels of vitamin D throughout their stay to ensure they weren't deficient, etc... No information. What I would have liked to see is both groups having their vitamin levels monitored throughout the entire stay and having one group given normal (not insanely high) doses of any deficient vitamins throughout their stay such that their levels were elevated closer to normal levels compared to the other group then to see the outcome. The problem with so many studies, when I read them, is that they are very poorly conducted and it's hard to conclude anything from them. Then they draw conclusions anyways. This is unfortunate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:50PM
The problem is that when you are sick you have higher levels of oxidative stress so you need to consume more to avoid deficiency. There is nothing surprising about it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:13PM (3 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @12:20AM (2 children)
Go and learn what "sepsis" is, before quoting things you understand nothing about.
Hint: sepsis is caused by BACTERIA. Another hint: viruses are NOT bacteria.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:20AM
Maybe you should learn what you are talking about: https://books.google.com/books?id=73pYBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA914#v=onepage&q&f=false [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:35AM
That other one is probably too hard for you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7176208/ [nih.gov] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sepsis/symptoms-causes/syc-20351214 [mayoclinic.org] https://err.ersjournals.com/content/29/157/200038 [ersjournals.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:23PM (9 children)
Well, no. A deficiency means you don't have enough, but it doesn't say anything about the reason why. That you aren't getting enough is a plausible hypothesis, but not established. And it hasn't been established, e.g., that having sufficient levels of vitamin D will keep you from getting COVID. Just that if you get COVID, then at that point you should expect to be deficient in vitamin D. Perhaps the virus ate it. Perhaps lots of things. It's plausible, and to my mind probable, that you should ensure that you don't currently have insufficient levels of vitamin D...but that's not proof that if you happened to catch COVID you wouldn't then turn out to be deficient in vitamin D.
This is a study that needs to be done, and has needed to be done for months. But AFAIK nobody is doing it. (OTOH, I wouldn't expect to know before the results were published.)
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:31PM
The rate of metabolism of antioxidants like vitamin d increases in injured/diseased tissue. That is why you require more to avoid deficiency when sick.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:44PM (3 children)
No way. Viruses do not have any metabolism of their own, they merely subvert the host cells into copying and shielding them.
Vitamins are not a material used in copying, therefore virus-caused removing them pertains to shielding.
If vitamin-removing is significant enough part of virus' shielding strategy to warrant keeping the code for it in the genome, putting vitamins back will significantly disrupt it.
Which is precisely what is observed in the studies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @12:02AM (2 children)
During DNA/RNA replication Fe2+ is oxidized to Fe3+, the elentron to reduce it back to Fe2+ needs to come from somewhere, like an antioxidant.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:12PM (1 child)
It comes from the usual thing that exists for the purpose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NADH [wikipedia.org]
Antioxidants are about different thing: catching the so-called "reactive oxygen species" before they do damage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_oxygen_species [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:23PM
And one source of electrons for NADH is the primary intracellular antioxidant, glutathione:
> We report here that ALDH1A1 can also use glutathione (GSH) and dihydrolipoic acid (DHLA) as electron donors to reduce NAD+ to NADH.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5620155/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:30AM
"A deficiency means you don't have enough, but it doesn't say anything about the reason why."
If you don't have enough then, by definition, you need more. Otherwise you don't have a deficiency.
The reason why could be that your body is consuming it faster. In which case you need more because, by definition, you don't have enough.
The reason why could be that you don't get enough. In other words you need more.
Now you can argue that a sick person needs to 'have' less vitamins (perhaps they get the same amount but less sticks around because more is consumed). IOW, a lower amount that sticks around is not a deficiency by definition.
This goes back to the basic definition of deficiency. A deficiency means you need more.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:32AM (2 children)
"it hasn't been established, e.g., that having sufficient levels of vitamin D will keep you from getting COVID."
Agreed. but having 'sufficient levels' is by definition a good thing. What constitutes sufficient levels in each given situation is what may be up for debate.
This isn't rocket science folks. It's basic semantics. This is English.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @12:44PM (1 child)
Also perhaps the underlying cause of the deficiency may not be a lack of intake. Perhaps it's an infection. An injury. Or some other problem. Perhaps simply adding more is not the solution but treating the underlying cause is. Still, the deficiency should generally be treated/addressed whether directly (by administrating more and regulating diet/intake) or indirectly (by treating the underlying cause so they get better and now have regular amounts) or a combination of both at the same time. Having a deficiency is bad regardless of the cause. The exact treatment depends on the situation but the deficiency should be addressed.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday October 30 2020, @02:54AM
No clearly true. IIUC there are cases where it is beneficial to be deficient in iron in the blood serum...because that fosters bacterial growth. Metabolism is complex, and simple answers are often, perhaps usually, wrong.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:31PM (8 children)
A vitamin deficiency is by definition when someone is deficient in vitamins. A deficiency would imply, by definition, that health problems are resulting from not having enough of something.
Perhaps a RCT could be used to determine what constitutes a deficiency, how to determine if someone has one, and how to best correct it. But if someone has a deficiency then, by definition, it should be corrected or else, by definition, they don't have a deficiency. That's the definition of a deficiency. QED.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:36PM (7 children)
Usually people in the hospital are deficient in all sorts of vitamins and minerals. Vitamin C, Vitamin D, magnesium, etc.
According to you doctors should correct all these deficiencies with no evidence for it?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:42PM (3 children)
I see you are still struggling with the English language.
Absolutely. All deficiencies should be corrected. This is true by definition. That's how a deficiency is defined in English. Not sure what your native language is.
Evidence is needed to determine what constitutes a deficiency and how to best correct for it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:56PM (2 children)
Given that multiple people have gone back and forth with you about what exactly you are arguing, perhaps the problem is with you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:11AM
It's the same person making the argument. It's not several people. The writing style is clear.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @02:46PM
A deficiency is a lack of something greater than acceptable levels.
Perhaps the problem is with these multiple people unable to understand English - or their beliefs being tied to their newfound lifestyle that is coming under threat, if addressing the deficiencies can materially improve Covid outcomes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:18PM (2 children)
How can you even suspect that any symptom has an origin other than deficiency without correcting those deficiencies? Is "deficient" defined differently in medical jargon?
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday October 29 2020, @06:55PM (1 child)
If a person with a vitamin B3 deficiency has had his arm hacked off, rest assured that his armless symptom is not caused by a vitamin B3 deficiency.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @10:26PM
Ignorance is bliss.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:29PM
Maybe that's the problem!
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:27PM (3 children)
My cup runneth over...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @07:30PM (2 children)
This paper is about the UK.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:13PM (1 child)
Is it too expensive to import American pee?
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(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @08:30PM
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:30PM (4 children)
AC for an obvious reason here. A relative by marriage, unbeknownst to me, was a vitamin freak. Eventually he died. The story was related to me by a close relative that the wife, while mourning of course, was simultaneously relieved. Why?
Because he was spending $500/mo on vitamins and it was affecting their finances.
The story rang true. One Thanksgiving he had asked me what vitamins I took. I said "none, not since I was a kid and Mom gave me Flintstones chewables". Those chewables never bothered me, not that I know. When I got to be an adult I tried a multi that was recommended, and it just gave me a stomach ache. I reasoned that if it was doing that, vitamin supplements without a doctor's recommendation were probably just malarky.
Not this guy though. He had been in medicine at some level below PA, not actually a nurse or anything. Enough knowledge to be dangerous--to his bank account if not his health.
So. "none". Not unless a doctor tells me. I'm not sure if he knew what to make of it. At least he didn't cause a scene at Thanksgiving.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:33PM
Plenty of people spend that much per month on booze and cigarettes.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @04:55AM (1 child)
"Because he was spending $500/mo on vitamins and it was affecting their finances. "
Wow, that's crazy.
Not enough of something is bad. Too much is also bad. Well this is true by definition.
$500 a month is crazy. I take a multi vitamin (it's the Kirkland daily multi vitamin and mineral supplement. It's one pill that has both vitamins and minerals). I don't even take it weekends, just one multivitamin/mineral pill a day on weekdays and sometimes I don't even take it on weekdays. I also take a calcium supplement about four times a week or so since I don't drink milk or soy milk or almond milk and I don't really get that much calcium from my diet.
Every once in a while I would take a vitamin D supplement (maybe once or twice a week).
Maybe once or twice a month I would take that Emergen-C supplement and I split the packet in half with someone else (I don't usually take the whole packet). I should probably take that a bit more often ...
Once or twice a week or so I take a pro-biotic pill.
$500 a month on vitamins??? That's insane!!!
When I went to the health food store the person there tried to convince me that I should be taking way more vitamins than I take. Nah, I'm good. Like I said, too much is also bad. Everything is about balance.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:13PM
(I also take protein supplements every once in a while but nothing crazy. Usually one of those protein bars like the Kirkland ones or something similar)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @06:20AM
I just want to make clear that nurses are not "below" physician assistants by any educational level. They have two completely different training regiments and approaches to medicine. You don't want a nurse doing a physician's job and you don't want a physician doing a nurse's job, despite each having a tendency to claim that they could do the other "better than they can."
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Spamalope on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:57PM (16 children)
And only a portion of people take those vitamins. And often the cheap ones, or the expensive ones are cheap ones in fancier packaging. Many vitamins are available in multiple forms, where one is absorbed better. You've really got to test for results in the body to know if a particular supplement is actually working.
Methylated versions are better as your body's ability to methylate is limited. (i.e. methylated folic acid for B9)
Letting everyone know, and that there is confirmation is useful to increase the number of folks supplementing while the threat is more severe than a normal sinus infection.
TLDR:
Vit D for example: Backed up via lab results
5kIU hard pill form Vit D doesn't move the needle on my vit D levels, I'm significantly deficient and by the same amount using that form. I notice no change.
Gel caps: (soft, fish oil capsules) and around 2kIU gets me almost to the bottom of normal and 5kIU gets me near the middle of normal. I also feel improvement beginning at 500IU (severe deficiency symptoms begin to improve)
Vit B: Sub lingual (under tongue) drops work better than pills, best for most. I've got a half dozen genetic variances associated with B absorption problems. I've got to use the injectable form for cyanocobalam. A profound difference for me...
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:06PM (15 children)
D? Why pills? What's wrong with milk and sun?
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @11:24PM
We dwell in basements 'round these parts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:48AM (10 children)
Angle of sun matters. For example, if you're level with New York City then for half the year you're effectively getting no D no matter how long you stay outside. The further you get from the equator the less you'll get.
As for whole milk (not skim milk since D requires fat for it to be absorbed), not everyone tolerates milk well. Just because a food product says it contains a certain percent doesn't mean that's how much you're actually getting. For example if you put spinach in your salad then say goodbye to most of the Vitamin A from that meal as its absorption will be blocked. (Seed oils block many things too. What's your in salad dressing?)
That's one reason why the carnivore diet is growing in popularity. It effectively excludes anything which blocks absorption and meats are all superfoods.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 29 2020, @08:53AM
I forgot the citation: https://www.sunsaferx.com/health-and-wellness/vitamin-d-and-sunlight-how-to-know-if-your-sun-exposure-is-producing-vitamin-d/ [sunsaferx.com]
Though it's from a supplement company so it's a bit biased. However if you search for "Vitamin D sun calculator" you'll get a lot of hits with similar information, including from more reputable sources. But those didn't break down the levels per location as nicely as the article I linked to did.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday October 29 2020, @12:07PM (8 children)
Yes, I eat poultry, meat and veggies - no potato - use olive oil. I snack on baby carrots, nuts, 5% fat greek yogurt and cheese; separately - not mixed. Drink coffee, tea, and water with lemon or lime fresh juice. Buckwheat and lentils for carbs when I eat them.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @02:44AM (7 children)
Throw some jalapenos in there too. Great source of viatmins, not a source of carbs, and if you're sitting there just eating a bowl of them people will look at you like your dick drags the ground when you walk.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday October 30 2020, @08:39AM (6 children)
A real Ukrainian way to eat borsch is like this. One dips a slice of Jalapeno in salt and eats it while stopping the burn with boiling soup. Vodka before, during and after is a must, but it's a carb, unfortunately.
Anyway, back to receipts, for spices I premix red paper, chili, turmeric and ginger powders and put it everywhere. That's bodybuilder's magic four. Than I add a random extra spice - just close my eyes and pick one.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @11:57AM (5 children)
Vodka's not a carb as far as counting carbs goes. No distilled liquor that isn't intentionally sweetened is. Drink all you like and rest assured that the headache you have the next day is a hangover and not keto flu.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday October 30 2020, @05:43PM (4 children)
Alcohol is like a carb as far as a diet is concerned and it generates 7 kcal per gram. 5 drinks is a third of the daily calories intake so it's ether borsch or vodka, unfortunately.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday October 30 2020, @09:35PM (3 children)
If you're looking strictly at calories, yes. If you're looking at it booting you out of ketosis, it doesn't.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday October 31 2020, @12:08AM (2 children)
I am looking for a good low calorie diet that is easy to keep.
Now, I am aware that there is an opinion that alcohol can be drunk while on keto diet. It is simply wrong as any good bodybuilder would tell you based on his experience. Quitting drinking is the very first step one has to do. No diet goal will be ever achieved if one continues to drink. That's a simple reality for an US resident. Other cultures are different though. For example Eastern Europe alcoholics often don't eat at all because they want the most drunk state with minimum hangover. It's achieved by just vodka without food. It works for them but will never work for an American.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday October 31 2020, @01:12AM (1 child)
It's not an opinion, it's a medical fact. A) Pushing a bunch of alcohol through your intestines makes them less able to absorb much nutrition from any food in them for a while. B) No amount of alcohol consumption will push you out of ketosis, which matters to folks doing keto way more than calorie counts.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday October 31 2020, @12:13PM
There are so called "medical facts" and there is real life. Just to give an example, according to metabolism science, alcohol does not take her virginity too.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Taibhsear on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:49AM (1 child)
Lactose intolerance and clouds, respectively.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday October 29 2020, @11:56AM
A rare steak during those long winter months then.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday October 29 2020, @03:04PM
Sun would require venturing outside. Dangers abound. People without masks. People with differing opinions. Much to be afraid of.
Milk has calcium which can cause kidney stones in older people. At some point you're not trying to grow bone mass like you were as a child and early teenager.
Cheap multi vitamins can be had that cost under $15 for a half year supply.
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