Exclusive: Apple targets car production by 2024 and eyes 'next level' battery technology - sources
(Reuters) - Apple Inc is moving forward with self-driving car technology and is targeting 2024 to produce a passenger vehicle that could include its own breakthrough battery technology, people familiar with the matter told Reuters.
The iPhone maker’s automotive efforts, known as Project Titan, have proceeded unevenly since 2014 when it first started to design its own vehicle from scratch. At one point, Apple drew back the effort to focus on software and reassessed its goals. Doug Field, an Apple veteran who had worked at Tesla Inc, returned to oversee the project in 2018 and laid off 190 people from the team in 2019.
Since then, Apple has progressed enough that it now aims to build a vehicle for consumers, two people familiar with the effort said, asking not to be named because Apple’s plans are not public. Apple’s goal of building a personal vehicle for the mass market contrasts with rivals such as Alphabet Inc’s Waymo, which has built robo-taxis to carry passengers for a driverless ride-hailing service.
Central to Apple’s strategy is a new battery design that could “radically” reduce the cost of batteries and increase the vehicle’s range, according to a third person who has seen Apple’s battery design.
Apple declined to comment on its plans or future products.
Here is what Volkswagen's CEO has to say about the Apple car:
Volkswagen Group CEO Herbert Diess said cash-rich technology giants invading the auto industry pose a much bigger challenge for the automaker than traditional rivals such as Toyota.
"We look forward to new competitors who will certainly accelerate the change in our industry and bring in new skills," Diess said in a LinkedIn post when asked about reports that Apple is developing a self-driving car.
"The unbelievable valuation and the practically unlimited access to resources instill a lot of respect in us," Diess said.
[...] "I have said it before: the most valuable company in the world will again be a mobility company," Diess said. "It could be Tesla, Apple or Volkswagen."
Apple electric car project page on Wikipedia
Related Stories
Apple is building a self-driving car in Silicon Valley, and is scouting for secure locations in the San Francisco Bay area to test it, the Guardian has learned. Documents show the oft-rumoured Apple car project appears to be further along than many suspected.
In May, engineers from Apple’s secretive Special Project group met with officials from GoMentum Station, a 2,100-acre former naval base near San Francisco that is being turned into a high-security testing ground for autonomous vehicles.
In correspondence obtained by the Guardian under a public records act request, Apple engineer Frank Fearon wrote: “We would ... like to get an understanding of timing and availability for the space, and how we would need to coordinate around other parties who would be using [it].”
Automobile manufacturing is a radical departure from Apple's core business. Can they pull it off?
Original Submission
the [Apple] team that has been working on an electric car (possibly self-driving) under the codename 'Titan' has made enough progress for the company to give the project "committed" status, with a target shipping date of 2019 (which isn't exactly the same thing as a commercialization date in Apple jargon, so the actually launch could be later).
...
The size of the team working on the 'Titan' EV was apparently increased from 600 people to 1,800, which is a lot. It's also telling that Apple has been poaching many Tesla employees lately (and vice versa). You'd think that if Apple couldn't show these people - especially the higher level employees - something really promising to convince them to come over, they would stick with Tesla, a company that is doing many exciting things and not exactly what you'd think of when you think of employee-retention challenges...
The traditional view is that competition would be bad for Tesla, but in this case competition might benefit both by accelerating the conversion from gas-powered cars to EVs.
takyon: Paywalled WSJ report and abridged MarketWatch version.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by BsAtHome on Saturday December 26 2020, @11:48AM (13 children)
Assuming that the whole ethics and insurance problems around self-driving cars can be resolved. Lets assume that self-driving cars are widely available and affordable. That means that no taxi drivers are required anymore. The cost of human labor is too high in many countries and those countries with low wages are catching up (also considering the time span involved).
Question: what are all those taxi (or uber- or lyft- or...) drivers supposed to do now? It would displace quite a few people from the workforce.
I'm not saying that the technology of self driving cars should be banned or not developed. It is an interesting problem from a scientific and engineering perspective. However, the consequences of such development is part of the development and should be considered too.
(Score: 2) by MIRV888 on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:31PM (2 children)
Machines are going to replace more than drivers.... soon. What to do with those unemployed masses is the $20,000 question.
I'm guessing war.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:44PM
Entry-level UBI + TaskRabbit and FuckBunny sex slavery.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Saturday December 26 2020, @07:20PM
This is not a new problem. Machines have been displacing workers since the Industrial Revolution of the early 19th century. What are buggy whip manufacturers to do?
For 20 years now, computers have been the best chess players in the world. More recently, they are now the best Go players. Should people quit playing those games? Should some kid who has no chance whatsoever of making a professional career out of a sport just not play? Why do we have intramural sports?
For a task like driving, I have no problem with computers taking over and doing better at what really is an onerous and dangerous chore, no matter how much automobile companies, car porn magazines, computer games (GTA, for instance), and enthusiasts try to dress it up as "fun".
Computers are going to take over at a whole lot of other things. We'll adjust.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @01:31PM
> what are all those taxi (or uber- or lyft- or...) drivers supposed to do now?
Do you live in NY? Vote for this guy, he’s already thought out your question
https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/23/22197868/andrew-yang-mayor-new-york-city-dcampaign-emocratic-primary-election [theverge.com]
Oh, BTW you missed truckers, mail delivery, package delivery, food delivery
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:16PM (3 children)
Ummmm... interesting...
I know! They'll make buggy whips and complain about how horseless carriages got them outta business.
or learn programming. And finish the code for the soggywizard site. RIP MDC
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Touché) by BsAtHome on Saturday December 26 2020, @03:53PM (2 children)
Well, I already told you that the problem is not of technology per se. The problem is the scale of the displacement. That we may want to examine to find a good way to cope with.
And I'm sure that you will be the first to seat yourself in the car which has been programmed by the displaced drivers who now do casual programming. Or you are the person who will volunteer to test the all new and better MCAS system programmed by these driverless programmers? Maybe they can fly? Better yet, you can learn how to fly?
(/s)
I know, we all need to learn programming and make a living programming. Only programmers are needed in the future. That is, until the robots learn how to program. No more cabdrivers and no more programmers. What is your next plan for re-education? Making them farmers?
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Saturday December 26 2020, @05:13PM (1 child)
http://news.yahoo.com/official-rare-earth-elements-jamaicas-red-mud-001224268.html [yahoo.com]
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Saturday December 26 2020, @05:16PM
Sorry copy+paste ==bad link....
https://medium.com/@kateabrosimova/if-ai-is-already-writing-code-will-programmers-lose-their-jobs-f942c15caebb [medium.com]
A programming bot would never have made such an error, or would it?
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Saturday December 26 2020, @05:47PM (4 children)
and this line of reasoning ladies and retards is why it's illegal to pump your own gas in some states. because it artificially creates jobs for people with no skill. literally making people pay extra cash, for a service that only slows down filling up your tank and gets in the way of life.
see, how about we stop hiding these costs to society under the label "work" or "job." if it's not needed, if no one wants to pay you for it because of that, it's not a job. get a job that's needed. what job you ask?
hvac repair, plumber? but we have those. yes we do - and they get paid $300 to come out to your house and install a toilet in 10min. So including travel, like $300/hr for the knowledge of balancing that shitter perfectly on the wax ring, which I'll admit, I can't do well. that to me means not enough supply, and inelastic demand. so more plumbers are needed to saturate the market more, to the point where his hourly rate is the same as a cashier at the grocery store.
so if there's no more need for cabbies and ubers - that's awesome. there are no consequences to that, except to the cabbie. the self-driving revolution will take another 50 years, so plenty of time for new people to retrain for another profession which requires as much skill as driving. so about 10 minutes.
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:22AM (3 children)
50 years? No. The self-driving revolution is coming within 10 years to commercial vehicles, which are the only drivers that will matter. Your normal person, maybe not driving so much in the coming decades. Not necessarily by choice.
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Sunday December 27 2020, @11:05PM (2 children)
we're talking about autonomous cabs replacing all the taxis and putting drivers out of work. if you think that's coming in 10 years, boy do i have a bridge to sell you.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Monday December 28 2020, @07:11AM (1 child)
Perhaps they won't replace taxis, yet, but be more like shuttle-services or buses. Vehicles that go between set locations such as from some specific hotel to the airport or like a bus just going round and round along a set path.
(Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Monday December 28 2020, @07:23AM
and those shuttle services will help the disabled old lady load her bags I'm assuming, with the help of a friendly robot? If hotels wanted that, the first thing they would have done years ago is get rid of all the agents and only left the self-checkin touchscreen. airport shuttles already have that. it goes on a tram track. subways already have that. it goes on a train track. in fact, they've had that for many decades. strange how there's still a person on those, even though with your theory, they could have gotten rid of them 50 years ago. hmm, I wonder why that guy is still there. must be because the fully autonomous car hasn't been invented yet.
but trucks moving load you say! tesla's and friends have the autonomous trucks, you don't need a driver! you don't. but, hmm, you do need a person. if he's there, maybe he can drive too? because lemme tell ya - those freight trains, going on a set track... still got a guy in the booth.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:21PM (5 children)
Maybe 10-15 years from now they'll be selling you an apple house in a private gated community in apple valley. The poor people who want iHomes will sign over their future earnings. If they're unemployed due to an iWork robot taking their job, they can do a shift at the apple plant to cover the interest.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:42PM (1 child)
You don't need money to be happy. But you do need Apple.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:33PM
...said Satan to Eve a while ago.
---
Those who do not subscribe to parables are doomed to reinvent them.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday December 26 2020, @07:27PM
iOwe, iOwe, it's off to work iGo?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @09:33PM
My work laptop is a Macbook Pro (not by my choice; whole company uses them exclusively) and just yesterday morning decided it wasn't going to recognize that it's plugged in, and thus won't charge. Nothing wrong with the power brick or connectors as far as I can tell, and the OS reports the batter as fine. Guides online are largely useless (although I did find one that covered what components on the motherboard need to be checked), and Apple's advice seems to boil down to "you're charging it wrong".
Can't wait to see how problems with their cars gets handled. I'll point and laugh.
No doubt they'll follow BMW's lead on heated-seats-as-a-service and billboards shaming cars that are out of warranty.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday December 26 2020, @09:46PM
Sounds better than an HOA.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈 - Give us ribbiti or make us croak! 🐸
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:48PM (1 child)
I seem to recall it being the case but didn't Elon once upon a time ask if Apple wanted to buy Tesla? They said no, and now they want to make their own iCar? Guess the biz changes. Sort of like how when Apple was down in the dumps nobody wanted to buy it either. Oops ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @01:21PM
I think Apple were smart to skip on Tesla. Without Elon spurring them along, my impression is that T wouldn't go anywhere. It's not the kind of development group that would work well inside a much larger corporate framework. And the Fremont plant has such a long history of labor problems that it would be silly to buy into that (Elon took it because it was more-or-less given to him...)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @12:56PM (12 children)
The car business is tough, I wonder if Apple has the guts to stick it out? Some of the many possible roadblocks they face include:
* Low margins in most sectors, perhaps not in the low volume luxury sector which Tesla has been in...although even there T hasn't made money yet on the actual cars
* Cyclical market, the car business has a long history of boom and bust on a fairly short cycle
* Unique engineering challenges--automotive engineering has, in many respects, specialized away from more general mechanical engineering (for better or worse). The best car engineering/designers, and manufacturing plants include a lot of IP and local knowledge that is hard to obtain by any means
* Certification requirements--government regulators have been in the car companies faces since the 1960s and worldwide there are a lot of regulations that are not yet "harmonized"
* Marketing/sales challenges--at least in the USA, competition includes GM and Ford dealerships established in thousands of communities...and these dealers are protected by wide reaching franchise laws (state and federal?)
* Long product cycles, only a few people change cars as frequently as they change phones. It's a whole different time scale of development than Apple is used to. There is also the market expectation that a car will be good for 10-20 years of useful life, including resale value after the first owner (take a look at used Nissan Leaf prices, they have collapsed). I've left this for last because I think it may be Apple's biggest corporate challenge. Things don't happen nearly as fast as they are used to, and that's why I think Apple won't have the stomach to stick this out very long.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:14PM (2 children)
My best guess would be that they might not want to mass-produce, they could go for that little niche luxury market. Sort of like their computer division. Even tho they probably still sell millions of those per year, but a lot less then the common "PC". So instead go for selling few cars per year, a waiting list to get one and they cost millions per car or something. Something like Koenigsegg, even Ferrari only makes about 8000 cars per year and that might be to many.
Something like:
https://www.koenigsegg.com/ [koenigsegg.com]
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:18PM (1 child)
My bad, I missed that part that said that they actually want to make vehicles for the mass-market. Good luck with that ...
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:27AM
They're just butthurt Elon is doing cool shit and they are making watches and handheld mental pacifiers.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:19PM (4 children)
You mean... pretty much like desktop/laptop computers a few years back? iWonder how Apple managed to survive such a low margin. (grin)
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:29PM
> iWonder how Apple managed to survive such a low margin. (grin)
They almost didn't. iThink* the only thing that saved them that time was the return of super sales guy Steve Jobs (but my timing could be off?)
*see what iDid there?
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:29AM (2 children)
mass marketing $$$ for sub-par non-repairable hardware?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:56AM (1 child)
computer/car, potato/potahto.
The car is just a larger mobile entertainment unit.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @09:23PM
Right. But in my case the entertainment comes from the road, not the sky (aka cloud/internet).
I've been on (or near) about half of these,
https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/most-fun-stretches-of-road-in-america [thrillist.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:57PM (1 child)
It doesn't matter, the "invisible hand" will pile money into Apple as it has into Tesla (worth more than all other auto manufacturers combined?).
Business fundamentals are so 20th century. As if 2020 wasn't obvious enough.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @08:55PM
> the "invisible hand" will pile money into Apple as it has into Tesla
I don't think you understand the stock market? Tesla issued some stock and kept that original money for operations. Everything that has happened to the stock price since that initial sale is between the stock buyers and sellers (and the brokerages that may have taken some fees). Tesla doesn't get an additional cent from the current bubble in their stock price.
There is one exception--with the per-share valuation so high, Tesla can sell some new stock. This dilutes the ownership of current share holders, but with the price so high (at present) they only have to sell a small number of shares to raise the money they want. So the shareholders probably won't complain very much if their stock is diluted by, say 5%.
Of course Elon holds onto a big chunk of stock, so his paper net worth is heading toward the moon. But if he sells any of it (profit taking), then he loses more control over the company... If he sells too much stock, he's seriously in danger of being fired by his board the next time he's high and tweets something stupid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @07:09PM
Replying to myself--
One way around the dealership problem is to only lease these vehicles. Also solves the depreciation problem, since they take them back at the end of the lease, do a full factory recondition. As long as the styling hasn't changed very much, they can just lease that used car again--and the second/poorer wave of iNuts will be able to lease at a lower cost.
Pretty much eliminates the problem of cheap repair parts too.
Not much chance that I'll lease one of these, can't stand rent seeking behavior.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 28 2020, @03:30PM
Apple is sitting on something like $200 billion in cash, up from $100 billion in cash. That kind of money can buy your way to competence and profit in any market.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by nostyle on Saturday December 26 2020, @02:57PM (10 children)
I'm guessing...
1) the battery will not be replaceable.
2) it will be designed to be replaced afterf three years.
3) connectors and interfaces to it will differ from every other vehicle, and will be deprecated regularly.
4) it will require cloud connectivity and third party apps to be truly useful.
---
Would you rather drive or be driven?
(Score: 1) by nostyle on Saturday December 26 2020, @03:01PM
s/afterf three/after three/
---
curse those random characters from the submit button
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @03:13PM
5) FindMyCar !
(Score: 2) by Username on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:10PM (4 children)
$number) It will only be serviceable by apple geniuses, and their only fix will be to replace the car. Any service outside of the genius bar will result in the loss of warranty.
$number) Any reseller of replacement parts will be sued by apple for trademark/copyright infringement.
$number) There will be a built in backdoor in the icar app that lets apple gain full control over your car without any kind of authentication, and the toolkit for this will get leaked to foreign governments who will take advantage of it.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday December 26 2020, @10:00PM (3 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈 - Give us ribbiti or make us croak! 🐸
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @10:59PM (1 child)
If you can afford an iCar and you still eat at Burger King, I think something is wrong...
(Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday December 26 2020, @11:18PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈 - Give us ribbiti or make us croak! 🐸
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday December 28 2020, @03:32PM
Apple cars will be anatomically correct, but which anatomy it has won't be revealed until you engage it for the first time.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Username on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:14PM
$number) There will be moisture sensitive markers inside the engine compartment, and if they turn red your warranty repair will be denied due to water damage.
(Score: 2) by Username on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:19PM
$number) iCar will stop charging due to ppbusg3hot being overvolted by a connector that has high voltage power right next to a data pin powered by g3.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:34PM
$number) iCar will require an iPhone to operate...Android users not welcome, vastly cutting their possible market share.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:45PM (1 child)
And ends with pie in the face.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 26 2020, @06:56PM
Hey, you better hear what I say
You better have your fun
Before you get away.
Get you a stray or get you a gay
Get you a man or woman
But have it your way.
I'll tell you why,
It could be a lie.
May be no pie up in the sky
When you die.
...
-- Willie Dixon
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @02:12AM
iCar owner: "There's a problem with the steering..."
Apple: "You're holding it wrong! Hipsters don't use the 10-and-2 o'clock position."
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:35AM (1 child)
I love it when board room wanking from delusional managers translates into doomed projects in the real world. Apple is not a technology company. Apple is a marketing company that re-uses CoTS building blocks to produce overpriced fashion accessories and marginally functional computers, watches, and phones. I do look forward to the public flailing and embarrassing prototypes though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 27 2020, @07:58AM
> Apple is a marketing company
All good points, and to add to your comment quoted above, they are also a rent seeking company--what part of their income comes from the markup on iStore apps and other purchases?
In the meantime, there is money to be made off those delusional managers and you can bet that a wide range of auto supplier companies are circling, just waiting for a chance to sell some of their products and services.