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posted by martyb on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:39PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the Crowdsourced-Government dept.

Taiwan has found a way to use a carefully designed social network constructively.
As stated in the Tyee,

Taiwan Is Crowdsourcing an Everybody-Wins Democracy

They had to do something. In 2014,

Opponents to the bill felt not just defeated, but invisible. The government had promised to listen to their concerns, but simply hadn't done so, rushing the bill onto the parliament floor. They had the votes; they could get it through. So that evening, protesters scaled the fence, kicked the door open and streamed onto the floor of Taiwan's parliament, the Legislative Yuan.

Sound familiar from recent history?

Well, the government found a way to listen.

They set up vTaiwan, a social network where prominence is given to posts that further concord instead of discord. And they're using it to craft proposals for legislation. Anyone can contribute.

The article doesn't state how the social network determines which posts promote consensus. I'd like to know.


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  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:54PM (4 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:54PM (#1098892)

    ow the social network determines which posts promote consensus

    Consensus is like pornography, I know it when I see it. /s

    --
    John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:03PM (3 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:03PM (#1098953) Journal

      Consensus is like pornography, I know it when I see it. /s

      A lot of Americans think they see pornography when all they see is nudity. If consensus is like pornography, then I wonder what the equivalent of nudity is.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by helel on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:32PM

        by helel (2949) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:32PM (#1099022)

        An echo-chamber springs to mind but I think that's more like the masturbatory equivalent in this discussion.

        --
        Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:48PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:48PM (#1099035)

        > If consensus is like pornography, then I wonder what the equivalent of nudity is.

        Lip service?

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lip%20service [merriam-webster.com]
        : an avowal of advocacy, adherence, or allegiance expressed in words but not backed by deeds —usually used with pay

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:54PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:54PM (#1099040)

          lp servicing is a step beyond pornography. amiright?

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by hendrikboom on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:54PM (9 children)

    by hendrikboom (1125) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:54PM (#1098893) Homepage Journal

    I found more information on the software they use to manage the social network.
    It's called Polis [participatedb.com]

    Pol.is is a survey technology where the user clicks “agree,” “disagree,” or “pass” in response to statements others have contributed. The user can also enter their own statement for others to take positions on. Pol.is clusters users who voted similarly into opinion groups using realtime machine learning (artificial intelligence), and visualizes those groups in real time. Polis visually defines and gives space to divergent opinion groups and breaks the community’s deadlock by identifying the points of consensus.

    I'm still not sure what the algorithm is, but the users' agreements and disagreements can imaginably provide the data they need to make the decisions on what to present.

    And I suspect the "realtime machine learning (artificial intelligence)" may just be a clustering algorithm, dressed up in verbiage to make it sound more impressive.

    They [pol.is] claim the software is open source and link to a set of github repositories.

    -- hendrik

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by looorg on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:11PM

      by looorg (578) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:11PM (#1098905)

      I wonder if this doesn't risk creating little (or large) bubbles, everyone want all the things they want and now and I don't want the stuff I don't want -- even tho it might be in the best of the interest in general or to the general public. Still that wouldn't be that much different towards how it is when you don't have a system like that.

      According to a 2016 Civicist article, the four-stage process, blending online and offline engagement opportunities, operates as follows:

              First, an artificial-intelligence facilitated conversation tool called pol.is is distributed through Facebook ads and stakeholder networks

              Then a public meeting is broadcast where scholars and officials respond to issues that emerged in the conversation;

              This is followed by an in-person stakeholder meeting co-facilitated by civil society and the government, and broadcast to remote participants;

              Finally, the Government agrees to bind its action to points that reached consensus, or provides a point-by-point explanation of why those consensus points are not (yet) feasible.

      http://www.participatedb.com/projects/344 [participatedb.com]
      https://civichall.org/civicist/vtaiwan-democracy-frontier/ [civichall.org]

      Oh goodie you have to be on Facebook to get invited to take part ...

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:47PM (5 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:47PM (#1098943)

      the users' agreements and disagreements can imaginably provide the data they need to make the decisions on what to present.

      Sounds ripe for gaming to me.

      Ever since Digg, the concept of up/down votes has been used to manage popular message boards ordering of stories, Reddit comes to mind as one big current one. Some people play for the obvious most upvotes, some play for the most downvotes, and some play to get the most controversy - a mix of up and down votes, while a great many people don't bother to play at all and just type to read their own writing. For those who do play, the strategies include things like keywords and phrases to "trigger" a big response - particularly among certain groups, publication at specific times of day to get the best positioning vs global readership reactions, presentation of a photo - particularly in cropped index form, etc. Even the Green site, and to a lesser degree SN, has a strong bias toward presentation of Frosty Piss to the readers.

      If the algorithms are truly open source, they will be gamed - actually it's virtually certain they already have been gamed, particularly with a userbase centered in Taiwan.

      --
      John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
      • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:16PM (4 children)

        by maxwell demon (1608) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:16PM (#1098958) Journal

        From the description posted here, I guess that the system will give posts prominence that get many “agree”s from people who usually disagree with the one who posted it. If that is true, you can of course get visibility by simply writing something that you don't actually agree with, but that's just plain old trolling, not gaming the system. And it only works if you don't *always* do it, because then the system will simply count you to the other group.

        Maybe you can game the system by being consistently inconsistent, but then I guess the system would simply see that you don't fit any group at all, and therefore not give your agreements and disagreements much value.

        So I don't see a way how that system could be effectively gamed. Which of course doesn't imply it cannot be, but at least it seems to be challenging.

        But then, maybe I guessed completely wrong how the system works anyway.

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:43PM (3 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:43PM (#1099130)

          You forgot sock puppets... all the best gaming approaches use sock puppets.

          --
          John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:21AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:21AM (#1099232)

            I totally disagree. Since I post for both the RNC and DNC when either pays me for "advertising", I can assure you there are much better ways to game the system.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:33AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:33AM (#1099242)

            Taiwan does use something like sock puppets in an effort to combat misinformation without censorship. These accounts are used to post responses that e.g., point out that anything from qanon is batshit insane rather than banning the insane posts. These are used in mainstream social media sites.

            If the US had a system like this, every tweet by Trump would have been responded to with a barrage of tweets pointing out that what Trump said had no basis in truth nor reality.

            Not sure it would work here though. Trump supporters are not known for nuance nor changing their minds when presented with evidence.

            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday January 17 2021, @09:41PM

              by hendrikboom (1125) on Sunday January 17 2021, @09:41PM (#1101697) Homepage Journal

              Not sure it would work here though. Trump supporters are not known for nuance nor changing their minds when presented with evidence.

              No, but it might affect those who are sitting on the fence.

              -- hendrik

    • (Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:20PM (1 child)

      by driverless (4770) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:20PM (#1099115)

      Pol.is is a survey technology where the user clicks “agree,” “disagree,” or “pass” in response to statements others have contributed.

      Brilliant. Mob rule, enabled by the Internet. There's a reason why systems of government have built-in long lags and delays, and that's to prevent mob rule based on knee-jerk reactions.

      • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday January 15 2021, @04:40AM

        by hendrikboom (1125) on Friday January 15 2021, @04:40AM (#1100395) Homepage Journal

        There are a number of stages that are not just doing what the most people agree with. The system seems to be set up (I'm not sure how) to encourage dialogue, not just parroting, and it appears to produce consensus.

        It's worth further study. There may be hints in the source code. There may even be documents describing how the system works in detail. I have not yet found them.

        The choice of what to promote is *not* appear to choose the messages that will likely elicit the most clicks and ad revenue.

        -- hendrik

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:57PM (26 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @03:57PM (#1098894)
    Probably lots of wishful thinking and handwaving.

    Just wait till Anonymous, 4chan et all craft legislation for Taiwan.
    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:31PM (25 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:31PM (#1098912)

      Remind me again why putrid bags of pus like anonymous, 4chan et al should be given a voice instead of being hunted down, rounded up, and shot ?

      Probably for the same reason someone has the right to yell "Fire !" in a crowded theater.

      Oh, wait...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:34PM (15 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:34PM (#1098914)

        so to be clear, you're in favor of people with the wrong opinions being rounded up and shot? that's what america was founded on right

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:02PM (13 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:02PM (#1098922)

          No, I'm in favor of people deliberately wanting to "watch the world burn" being rounded up and shot.

          Tell me: Are the cancer cells eating at your insides simply cells with the "wrong opinion" to you ? Is someone telling you that he wished he could rape and murder your daughter simply of the "wrong opinion" ?

          And BTW: America was "founded" on invasion, bloodbath, genocide of indigenous people to steal their land, and slavery.

          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:51PM (1 child)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:51PM (#1098947)

            America was "founded" on invasion, bloodbath, genocide of indigenous people to steal their land, and slavery.

            Very true, and as long ago as the 1960s we started turning that legacy around with awareness of its inappropriateness and counter-productivity in the modern world. Well, a slim majority is aware and willing to do something to correct it, sometimes at least.

            --
            John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:18PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:18PM (#1099008)

              Which country hasn't been ?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:53PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:53PM (#1098948)

            You're the Athenians who gave Socrates hemlock.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:00PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:00PM (#1098952)

            I'm in favor of people deliberately wanting to "watch the world burn" being rounded up and shot.

            No, fuck you... You round up and shoot the people that are lighting the fires, you fucking moron!

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:43PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:43PM (#1099030)

              I guess you missed the "The Dark Knight" reference...

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:21PM (6 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:21PM (#1098962)

            Native American chiefdoms were "founded" on invasion, bloodbath, genocide of indigenous people to steal their land, and slavery.

            • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:46PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:46PM (#1099032)

              So what's your point ? That because people have been barbaric savages for eons we should all continue to be barbaric savages ?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:19PM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:19PM (#1099054)

                My point: It is dishonest or ignorant to place blame on America as being somehow uniquely horrible for that time in history. Get over your *presentism* and *selective* outrage.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:52PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:52PM (#1099077)

                  nobody said america was unique in that regard

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:21PM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:21PM (#1099116)

                  Your point is that you are completely ignorant of Native American politics, or inter-tribal relations. This "slave" thing is a white European obsession.

                  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:46PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:46PM (#1099133)

                    American Indians enslaved other tribes. They also stole white women and children in raids on white settlements. The more organized civilizations such as the Aztecs in Mexico not only enslaved other tribes, they skinned them alive and cut out their beating hearts. In the region of North America taken by the Europeans, alliances were formed by Indian tribes and Europeans against other tribes and Europeans. The Indians were not a united happy family.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @12:13PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @12:13PM (#1099376)

                      +1 for truth. Slavery has been a worldwide institution for all of recorded history. It is only in the last several centuries, where technological advance has cheapened the value of basic human labor to such a point that slavery is not economical. Government/political slavery, as in US prisons or Chinese Uighur camps, is outside the bounds of economics, as modern sovereign governments control fiat currency and don't need cash reserves to pay for anything.

          • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:56PM

            by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:56PM (#1099043)

            Tell me: Are the cancer cells eating at your insides simply cells with the "wrong opinion" to you ? Is someone telling you that he wished he could rape and murder your daughter simply of the "wrong opinion" ?

            There are not analogous situations. The former is a thing actively happening, while the latter is Wrongthink that hurts no one until action is taken on it.

            I wish lots of things. That doesn't make me a rapist or a murderer.

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:47PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:47PM (#1099033)

          This but unironically. The Redcoats and Tories had the wrong opinions, so we rounded them up and shot them until the Redcoats went home and the Tories sat down and shut up.

          And we'll do it again, so don't let me hear you britlovers talking any monarchist crap.

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by fakefuck39 on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:41PM (8 children)

        by fakefuck39 (6620) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:41PM (#1099027)

        Ah, a guy who probably proclaims to be a patriot, yet does not support or know the constitution.

        Because freedom of speech. And btw, you do have a right to yell fire in a crowded theater. Only idiots like yourself think we don't, because they read some blog post by... another idiot like themselves.

        no one is giving those people a voice. they have a voice, and you're trying to silence it. apparently by making things you disagree with a crime punishable by death.

        here on planet earth, it's you and some tiny loud rounding error minority of the population storming the capitol. because you're literally too dumb to do anything else. and in the real world, it's you who gets shot. but mostly laughed at, because despite what cnn says, people like you are just dumb goofy clowns, and not a threat. more of a skidmark on the underwear. just something that's a little shitty and a lot embarrassing. no one takes you, or anything you say seriously. because you are literally nothing.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:02PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:02PM (#1099048)

          was all ready to upvote this until the second half of your post turned into repeatedly insulting the parent rather than saying anything constructive or useful

          would be great if you turned down this tendency of yours

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by fakefuck39 on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:56PM (1 child)

            by fakefuck39 (6620) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:56PM (#1099099)

            there are two possibilities here. the first is you have an account, and anything that can be downvoted - like your comment here, you post as AC so you save your magic internet points, which you collect because you have nothing else to do with your life. Or you want good karma so you get points to vote politically instead of based on content of comments, for some reason thinking voting does something. All that time you spend counting and manipulating your internet points does nothing - everyone reads at -1 here, since they don't want what they read selected by retards like yourself.

            second, is you can't even comment from your account, because you've been downvoted to hell for being a retard, and now have to post as AC, and actually aren't able to upvote or downvote jack.

            Hey retard - no one gives a flying fuck about what you upvote or downvote. You and your magic internet points aren't some power you have. They are literally nothing. It takes a complete and total loser for them to mean something to a person.

            I love insulting complete losers - both the parent, and you. Now go ahead and downvote my posts with your magic internet points to feel empowered. Loser. Big L.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:32PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:32PM (#1099059)

          And btw, you do have a right to yell fire in a crowded theater.

          Fun fact: this quote originated from a US Supreme Court judge making the argument that speaking against the US joining WWI was dangerous speech.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater#The_Schenck_case [wikipedia.org]

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:12PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:12PM (#1099111)

          For fuck's sake, do you mentally defective autistic nerds have to have everything spelled out to you ?!

          The fucktards who stormed the capitol building are exactly the kind of people I want to see rounded up and shot. But do you think these morons just appeared out of thin air ? They are the product of years of misinformation, endoctrination and conspiracy theories coined and spread by the likes of 4chan, 8chan, QAnon, etc. The thugs in Washington were just the intellectually inferior, gullible, desperate, easily manipulable arms of the real puppet masters who never showed up in Washington and never put themselves in harm's way. They let their well brainwashed minions do the dirty work.

          What kind of people do you think create conspiracies like QAnon ? Kids doing it just for the lulz ? No, these people are foreign agents trying to create chaos to destroy what they believe to be an ennemy nation, and also pure psychopaths who take their pleasure in lighting fires everywhere and watching the world burn. In all cases, they are pure evil and must be eliminated.

          Sorry if my "wrong opinion" pisses you off, snowflake, but if freedom of speech is absolute as you claim, it also applies to everyone. Deal with it.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:46AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:46AM (#1099248)

            "4chan, 8chan, QAnon"

            These have fairly shallow reach. Quantitatively no where near as much damage as the MSM. Some nuts are a statistical inenvitability. However the reason that nothing real ever gets discussed, (which is what makes people resort to fringe groups to begin with) is because generations of people have been indoctrinated into to thinking the broadcast media (a simplex communication) is normal. Today this is far from true.

            What changed from 20 years ago to today, was that communications became full duplex over long distances. So now people ask questions, and the boomers on the hill have this broadcast era mentality where they think that they can get away with refusing to engage the public on real topics because "where else are they going to get information?". The public has a higher expectation of engagement now. The fringes are successful because congress failed to recognize the totality of its current role.

            Of course, they mostly seem to believe their own legend. So it couldn't possibly be their failure. /s

            Which is why they will respond by trying to crack down on civil rights, instead of realizing that they need to ease off, and become more engaged, and more transparent.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:13AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:13AM (#1099317)

            Many of those protesting at the capital were former military. Their "indoctrination" comes from an oath: "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

            You are definitely correct that we're under attack by a foreign nation who are seeking to create chaos and destroy what they believe to be an enemy nation. But you're not noticing who they're targeting. When China sent a female spy to sleep around for power, she bee-lined straight to San Francisco. And succeeded. The US House Intelligence Committee is the primary oversight body of the CIA. And the man who was chairing that committee, Representative Eric Swalwell, was literally fucking a Chinese spy while overseeing the CIA. Swalwell, as an aside, is (and was at the time) married - with children. Similarly Diane Feinstein employed, presumably unknowingly, a Chinese spy for more than 2 decades who worked in her office, was her personal chauffeur, and also her liaison to the Asian American electorate.

            The Chinese seem to believe that the DNC can be easily controlled and infiltrated, and they seem to be correct. And this is not even getting into the relationship between Hunter Biden and China. Interestingly, doing a quick search on Swalwell to ensure I spelled his name correctly, Pelosi *just* named him as an impeachment manager. Why I'm just shocked...

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @03:17AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @03:17AM (#1099280)

          "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt." That quote seems fitting here.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by looorg on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:03PM (4 children)

    by looorg (578) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:03PM (#1098899)

    Interesting, I wonder if this would scale well tho or transition to other countries. Their situation is somewhat unique in that they are a fairly small nation (36k km^2) but with a somewhat large population (23 million) -- or if you wish they are like the state of Indiana in size but they crammed in four times as many people. Their population density is fairly high, so you sort of have to be nice or at least try and get along cause there is nowhere to go but into the water or up.

    So does every citizen get like a login of some kind? After all they can't allow system anonymity so you better not have any "wrong" ideas or dislike the wrong/right proposals.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:55PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:55PM (#1099041)

      Came to say something similar. While there are a few "ethnic" groups in Taiwan (including the original island inhabitants on the mountainous SE side), it's nothing like the melting pot of USA. So consensus is more likely to be possible, just because most of the people share a lot of the same cultural background.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:44PM (2 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:44PM (#1099071) Homepage

      If there's one thing China did right, it's make Jack Ma disappear after he got too politically uppity. People are allowed to get rich from capitalism in China. However, rich people are not allowed to get political in China, as Jack Ma found out. It sure would be nice to see Bezos and Dorsey disappeared and their businesses nationalized.

      " B-b-but that's fascism! National Socialism! "

      Uh, it's been for quite awhile, and you progressives and libtards supported it as long as they were on "your team." China sees the dangers of rogue billionaires trying to take control of their country and squashes them before they can get Dorsey-bad and Bezos-bad. Unfortunately we're getting the worst of China-style rule with none of the benefits. Kinda ironic, but logical, because the US' rogue billionaires are de-facto under their control through bribery and planted employees.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:11PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:11PM (#1099086)

        "If there's one thing China did right, it's make Jack Ma disappear after he got too politically uppity."

        then

        "China sees the dangers of rogue billionaires trying to take control of their country and squashes them before they can get Dorsey-bad and Bezos-bad. Unfortunately we're getting the worst of China-style rule with none of the benefits."

        Wow, so EF is now openly a fascist while at the exact same time saying he is not. True double think in action, matches what we saw on the 6th. The irony of the Koch and Mercer billionaires actually working to promote rightwing fascism I'm sure is totally lost on you.

        I truly hope you are intentionally being manipulative and deceitful, it is more troubling to think you're actually this clueless.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:25AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:25AM (#1099300)

          I dunno, doesn't read like he's contradicting himself here. He's saying fascism (China) good, halfway-house fascism (US) not good. The US need to double down and go full fascist much like EF went full retard!

          If anything its a pretty consistent point-of-view.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:31PM (5 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:31PM (#1098911)

    > Opponents to the bill felt not just defeated, but invisible. The government had promised to listen to their concerns, but simply hadn't done so, rushing the bill onto the parliament floor. They had the votes; they could get it through. So that evening, protesters scaled the fence, kicked the door open and streamed onto the floor of Taiwan's parliament, the Legislative Yuan.

    Sound familiar from recent history?

    Not really. The protesters in Taiwan didn't have guns or bombs and didn't beat anyone to death.

    Furthermore, I seriously doubt they were all there because of some ridiculous conspiracy theory that had been completely disproven.

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:50PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:50PM (#1098944)

      What I wouldn't give to have all the Leftist/Marxist/BLM/Antifa riots of 2020 to have been as "violent" as the 2021 "riot."

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:35PM (1 child)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:35PM (#1099124) Journal

        Yes, we understand that you are a terrorist that wishes for violence.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @12:38PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @12:38PM (#1099379)

          1 person shot != Insurrection. Sorry, try again.

    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday January 13 2021, @02:46AM (1 child)

      by sjames (2882) on Wednesday January 13 2021, @02:46AM (#1099272) Journal

      Further, the protesters in Taiwan were trying to be heard when government wasn't listening. In D.C., the government was listening, and in fact was in the process of finalizing a nationwide vote on the subject at hand. The protesters wanted the government to not listen to the people.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 13 2021, @03:08AM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 13 2021, @03:08AM (#1099279)

        The US government wasn't listening to their demands to throw out votes from states where they didn't like the results, and basically give the election to Trump even though he lost.

        The government, at many levels, DID listen to all their "concerns" about the votes in contested states. They did a whole bunch of recounts, by hand, and found nothing amiss. Somehow that wasn't good enough. So they used the court system, as people have a right to do, and filed lawsuits challenging the results. The judges listened to them. And threw out their lawsuits because they had no evidence for their wild allegations.

        So, after being heard over and over and over but dismissed, because none of their objections or allegations had any basis in reality, they decided to turn to violence.

        As far as I'm concerned, I don't care about these morons' concerns any more, and I have no more interest in listening to them. We all tried listening to them and reasoning with them, but instead they decided to attempt a coup. Fuck 'em. Hopefully the National Guard will shoot them dead if they pull this shit again.

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by noirmaru on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:51PM (2 children)

    by noirmaru (6701) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @04:51PM (#1098921)

    This is created by Audrey Tang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Tang [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:09PM (1 child)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:09PM (#1099001)

      Also wrote one of the first Perl 6 interpreters in Haskell. No kidding.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:45AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:45AM (#1099309)

        The competition for such honor must have been fierce.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:50PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @05:50PM (#1098946)

    Once Biden is firmly in charge, China will retake Taiwan, making democracy there just a memory. Biden will forestall any American action about it, as he has been paid to do by the Chinese.

    If anyone in Taiwan is perchance reading this, I implore you: GET OUT.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:21PM (6 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:21PM (#1098961) Journal

      Biden will forestall any American action about it, as he has been paid to do by the Chinese.

      And of course you have a source of that claim, right? And a reliable source please, not the private blog of some random conspiracy nutter.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:40PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:40PM (#1098977)

        You don't find your comment at least slightly ironic given the past 4 years of "reliable sources" propagating, promoting, and spreading a mostly debunked Russian conspiracy theory? Oh right, you probably have no clue most of the stuff in the dossier and related reports has been debunked given that those same reliable sources aren't exactly talking about that. Funny.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:12PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @09:12PM (#1099087)

          mostly debunked

          [citation needed]

          Remember, reliable sources.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:26PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:26PM (#1099119)

            The Pee-pee tape is reel! The truth is out there!

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:10PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @07:10PM (#1099002)

        The point I make above is that "reliable media" has become effectively an oxymoron. All media is becoming little more than demographic pandering and low effort click bait. And so rather than asking for source, if you at all care why the person above believes what he does believe - it'd probably make more sense to simply ask him why he believes what he does. You're obviously not going to find negative reporting on Biden from pro-establishment media.

        In my opinion the "China question" is the million dollar one with Biden. There's little doubt that Biden's son was bought with Chinese money, although Biden's direct involvement was unproven - though probable. And China themselves have been rejoicing over Biden being elected while actively and overtly trolling Chump and railing against him in their state media. Of course this could also simply be because the relationship between Trump and China is awful, which is definitely true, as opposed to because the relationship between Biden and China is expected to be "favorable" for China, which is still [educated] speculation for now.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:42PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @08:42PM (#1099067)

          Your argument is laden with Republican talking points, therefore you lose.

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:41PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:41PM (#1099128) Journal

        Next they'll be telling us that Biden has a secret bank account in China! Also, he installed Hunter Biden to be Sr. White House Advisor and in that role Hunter received dozens of valuable Trademarks from the Chinese government!

        Someone get these paid-in-China people out of office!

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @11:13PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @11:13PM (#1099150)

      My wife's parents fled China for Taiwan. She is very concerned of the prospect of a soft line toward China by the incoming administration.

      She constantly tells me of postings on anti-Communist media of general concern about Communist-like tactics by the Democrats during the last four years.

      New Americans who experienced government overreach/oppression in their old country have special insight on how this country is changing for the worse.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @01:30AM (#1099238)

        Married to a foreigner, like Trump? So prone to Treason? You don't say!

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:33AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 13 2021, @04:33AM (#1099304)

      Not sure where you get that from. But it will be interesting to see what the Biden administration will do regarding China.

      One has to have balls of adamantium or mentally insane to take on China today - we know which one Trump fits into. Will be interesting to see what Biden does. On paper, you'd think it is actually in America's (not just the elites but the nation as a whole) best interest in the long term to curb their dependency on China.

    • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:17PM

      by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday January 13 2021, @05:17PM (#1099480)

      You mean like what China has done to Hong Kong over the last four years?

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by crafoo on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:43PM (1 child)

    by crafoo (6639) on Tuesday January 12 2021, @06:43PM (#1098980)

    Taiwan is the No-Go Zone formed by Chinese that escaped China during the communist slaughter. They love freedom. Of course they do not take any bullshit from their government. Sadly, Taiwan's days are numbered.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:29PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 12 2021, @10:29PM (#1099121)

      crafoo, you ignorant slut!

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