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posted by martyb on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:31AM   Printer-friendly

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcosc.2020.615419/full

Humanity is causing a rapid loss of biodiversity and, with it, Earth's ability to support complex life. But the mainstream is having difficulty grasping the magnitude of this loss, despite the steady erosion of the fabric of human civilization (Ceballos et al., 2015; IPBES, 2019; Convention on Biological Diversity, 2020; WWF, 2020). While suggested solutions abound (Díaz et al., 2019), the current scale of their implementation does not match the relentless progression of biodiversity loss (Cumming et al., 2006) and other existential threats tied to the continuous expansion of the human enterprise (Rees, 2020). Time delays between ecological deterioration and socio-economic penalties, as with climate disruption for example (IPCC, 2014), impede recognition of the magnitude of the challenge and timely counteraction needed. In addition, disciplinary specialization and insularity encourage unfamiliarity with the complex adaptive systems (Levin, 1999) in which problems and their potential solutions are embedded (Selby, 2006; Brand and Karvonen, 2007). Widespread ignorance of human behavior (Van Bavel et al., 2020) and the incremental nature of socio-political processes that plan and implement solutions further delay effective action (Shanley and López, 2009; King, 2016).

We summarize the state of the natural world in stark form here to help clarify the gravity of the human predicament. We also outline likely future trends in biodiversity decline (Díaz et al., 2019), climate disruption (Ripple et al., 2020), and human consumption and population growth to demonstrate the near certainty that these problems will worsen over the coming decades, with negative impacts for centuries to come. Finally, we discuss the ineffectiveness of current and planned actions that are attempting to address the ominous erosion of Earth's life-support system. Ours is not a call to surrender—we aim to provide leaders with a realistic "cold shower" of the state of the planet that is essential for planning to avoid a ghastly future.

Journal Reference:
Corey J. A. Bradshaw, Paul R. Ehrlich, Andrew Beattie. et al. Underestimating the Challenges of Avoiding a Ghastly Future, Frontiers in Conservation Science [OPEN] (DOI: 10.3389/fcosc.2020.615419)


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  • (Score: 0, Troll) by jasassin on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:55AM (2 children)

    by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:55AM (#1104131) Homepage Journal

    Chicken little says the sky is falling.

    --
    jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:38PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:38PM (#1104144)

      A broken clock is right twice a day (and a running clock is most likely never right at all).

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:41PM (#1104146)

      Chicken little says nothing, because it is dead. No more insects to feed on, the neonicotinoids [wikipedia.org] have done their job

      Neonicotinoid use has been linked in a range of studies to adverse ecological effects, including honey-bee colony collapse disorder (CCD) and loss of birds due to a reduction in insect populations.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Lester on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:47AM (74 children)

    by Lester (6231) on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:47AM (#1104134) Journal

    I'm a little skeptical about all this apocalyptic future for planet.

    I watched a documentary about Chernobyl [wikipedia.org] twenty years after disaster. It is amazing how nature in 20 years has re-conquered the city. Tall trees, deers etc in the downtown. Here, in Spain, during pandemic confinement, when there weren't almost cars or people outside, in the cities or on the roads, in the outskirts of some cities you could see wild boars.

    I don't think the loss of biodiversity is a great deal, if/when human kind disappear from earth, new species with be created to replace the niches we have left.

    For centuries wolfs were a problem in Europe in spite of hunting, what has almost exterminated wolfs in Europe is the occupation of its habitat. That is what we are, an invasive specie. Can't we do things better and be less destructive? yes, being less people, instead of 7,500 millions, 2,000 millions or 1,000 millions. But that can't be done. We are more successful in Death Control than in Birth control, that is how nature made us, fight to survive and fight to breed. You can reduce births artificially for some time or in same places, but in the long term, as specie, we are going to use all our resources to avoid death and we will reproduce. And when we manage to reduce deaths and births what we get is population ageing.

    WE have a problem. Nature hasn't, it will thrive ins spite of us.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jasassin on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:56AM (2 children)

      by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:56AM (#1104135) Homepage Journal

      If you have not seen the movie Idiocracy, please watch it.

      --
      jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:38PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:38PM (#1104304)

        Just like the climate change conspirators, Idocracy was off by hundreds of years.

        Just in the opposite direction.

        And only one of the two has been proven right.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @08:49PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @08:49PM (#1104548)

          It was satire which is why they added the date joke making Joe think it was 2005. Replace Brawndo with neocortinoid pesticides.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:54AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:54AM (#1104138)

      I watched a documentary about Chernobyl [wikipedia.org] twenty years after disaster.

      Time to repeat Chernobyl in other places to keep humans away too. [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:38PM (50 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:38PM (#1104145)

      The thing about nature replacing itself: it depends very much on where it reboots from.

      Chernobyl wasn't too far gone when humanity irradiated it and stepped away, the challenge of the radiation is far less for the natural world than the challenge of human exploitation. The recovery around Chernobyl only took a couple dozen years.

      We can, and very nearly did, extinct the whales - which are a major component of the ocean food web, including fertilization of the water column to support annual plankton blooms in the polar oceans which absorb tremendous quantities of CO2. Replacement of a genus like whales in the ecosystem will take millions, not dozens, of years. We are, daily, extincting species we don't even know about through destructive over fishing practices with fishing fleets that were built in global competition between nations beyond the capacity of the oceans to support them, and for a while the nations were economically propping up these fleets to keep them running even though they were an economically losing proposition, I think that madness is slowly subsiding now.

      The closer that palm-oil plantations come to 100% destruction of the rain forests they are replacing, the longer it will take them to return to something other than a mono-culture desert. Some of the larger rain-forest species are already beyond saving, again decapitating their food webs and changing them for millions of years.

      Manhattan, London, Sydney, can all return to nature within a few thousand years of neglect, but what that nature will look like depends entirely on what species remain to do the re-wilding. If we continue on our current trajectory of near-total exploitation of nature, we're going to place humanity in a position of 100% dependence on our technology and civilization and when either one of those fails, we will fail as a species. Something else will replace us, sure, but is that really the goal of society, to make way for humanity's succcessors?

      https://www.half-earthproject.org/ [half-earthproject.org]

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Saturday January 23 2021, @02:11PM (4 children)

        by maxwell demon (1608) on Saturday January 23 2021, @02:11PM (#1104166) Journal

        Exactly. It is somewhat unfortunate that it's always called saving the environment, when that actually is only a necessary part of the end goal which is is saving humanity.

        Of course it doesn't help that many people show great hubris on human ability to handle bad situations. If our ecosystems fail in a big way, overpopulation will cease to be a problem quite quickly, and instead basic survival will become the main struggle again.

        And even if we survive, we'll not be able to start a second industrial revolution later, since all easily exploitable energy resources have been used up by the first one and won't replenish in the next few millions of years. Thus even in the best case, humanity will likely be stuck in a medieval level society forever.

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:27PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:27PM (#1104237) Journal

          since all easily exploitable energy resources have been used up by the first one

          Like the Sun, wood, water, and wind? Even if we ignore the many easily exploitable renewable energy sources, we still have a lot of easily accessible coal in the ground. And oil renews on a long enough timeframe. The Ghawar will never be the oil field it used to be, but it can generate enough oil to start an industrial revolution.

        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:34PM

          by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:34PM (#1104240) Journal

          Thus even in the best case, humanity will likely be stuck in a medieval level society forever.

          Only if by choice...

          --
          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:37PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:37PM (#1104303)

          Forever is an awfully long stretch of time, and necessity is the mother of invention. Sapients will develop a biological civilization in a mere few thousand years, I reckon, when there are no easier options and IF they do in fact need it. And that latter is a BIG if, given that working classes lived WORSE than hunter-gatherers through the whole "civilization" game except the last century or so.

          As repeatedly demonstrated all over the world, a tribe needs only a vestige of biological civilization, namely poisoned arrows or blowdarts, to keep their "civilized" neighbors out for a thousand years, till those acquire assault rifles in bulk. Which, in absence of machine civilization anywhere, will be a mite complicated.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:26AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:26AM (#1104397)

            Who are the hunter-gatherer working class? Explain to me how you believe this worked.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:35PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:35PM (#1104214)

        Boo hoo.

        Well I'm a little skeptical about all this apocalyptic future for planet.

        So let's call it 50-50.

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:57PM (43 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:57PM (#1104221) Journal

        Chernobyl wasn't too far gone when humanity irradiated it and stepped away, the challenge of the radiation is far less for the natural world than the challenge of human exploitation.

        Keep in mind that "human" here means Soviet Russian humans. They were particularly hard on the environment. One of the many bits of dishonesty in this story is treating the worst of humanity, at least environmentally, as the mean. Those slash-and-burn palm oil plantations aren't happening in Western Europe, for another example.

        If we continue on our current trajectory of near-total exploitation of nature, we're going to place humanity in a position of 100% dependence on our technology and civilization and when either one of those fails, we will fail as a species.

        Another bit of dishonesty is ignoring reality when it doesn't fit the narrative. We (I include you in that since you've been [soylentnews.org] told [soylentnews.org] multiple [soylentnews.org] times [soylentnews.org]) already know that we've detoured from that alleged trajectory of "near-total" exploitation.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:14PM (38 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:14PM (#1104227)

          Those slash-and-burn palm oil plantations aren't happening in Western Europe, for another example.

          It's true they aren't happening in western Europe: They're happening to produce cheap palm oil for corporations based on Western Europe and the US, though, e.g. Palmolive soap.

          Wherever you see an industry destroying the environment, look for a global supply chain, because there almost always is one. And that global supply chain is almost never owned by or operated primarily for the benefit of poor people in post-colonial countries.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:30PM (37 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:30PM (#1104239) Journal

            It's true they aren't happening in western Europe: They're happening to produce cheap palm oil for corporations based on Western Europe and the US, though, e.g. Palmolive soap.

            Another bit of dishonesty here is construing every good thing humanity has done in the worst possible light, such as the "export the pollution" narrative.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:37PM (34 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:37PM (#1104241) Journal

              :-) Even more dishonest are those who deny it. "Exporting the pollution" is precisely the intention. Out of sight, out of mind

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:40PM (32 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:40PM (#1104265) Journal

                Even more dishonest are those who deny it.

                What's being denied, fusty?

                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:49PM (31 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:49PM (#1104270) Journal

                  What's being construed?

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 3, Touché) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:21PM (30 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:21PM (#1104283) Journal

                    What's being construed?

                    A fantasy which transferring blame for the many ills of the developing world on the developed world. The glaring flaw with that fantasy is that there would be no developing in the developing world without the economic trade with the developed world, the knowledge discovered/created by the developed world, and the developed world as a living example of what can be.

                    • (Score: 0, Troll) by fustakrakich on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:28PM (29 children)

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:28PM (#1104287) Journal

                      Exporting pollution is a common practice. We go in to colonize and pillage resources and enslave the population, not "develop" anything.

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:54PM (28 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:54PM (#1104296) Journal

                        Exporting pollution is a common practice. We go in to colonize and pillage resources and enslave the population, not "develop" anything.

                        Remember when I spoke [soylentnews.org] of "your glaring tendency to ignore people doing things right". Here it is again. Billions of people wouldn't be living better lives now, if your words were true.

                        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:42AM (24 children)

                          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:42AM (#1104365)

                          living better lives

                          Define better lives. The librul agenda curriculum being taught in our high schools about Vietnam these days paints the French as an exploitative abusive conquering force who destroyed the existing different, but no less noble, Vietnamese civilization and replaced it with little copies of Paris in which the natives did the hard work for little pay and the French lorded over them reaping the benefits. Are the Vietnamese living better lives today after the French "civilized" them? After the U.S. brought them "freedom"? Of course, they were somewhat under China's influence before the French arrived but China wasn't nearly as heavy handed in Vietnam as the French.

                          If you choose to believe that history. Opinions largely depend on the lens used by the storytellers.

                          I met a South African in 1989 (in Belgium) while their revolution was going on back home in JoBerg. They had "white man's burden" on them in spades, really thought they were doing the South Africans a huge favor by continuing to rule them, and I think they really believed that. Clearly, the South Africans disagreed - and I don't notice them begging for their white ex rulers to come back in the last 30 years, even if some of their Euro-style cities have turned to shit, by Euro standards.

                          --
                          🌻🌻 [google.com]
                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 25 2021, @06:20AM (23 children)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 25 2021, @06:20AM (#1104629) Journal

                            They had "white man's burden" on them in spades, really thought they were doing the South Africans a huge favor by continuing to rule them, and I think they really believed that.

                            Nobody bothers continuing propaganda that no one believes.

                            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 25 2021, @12:03PM (22 children)

                              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 25 2021, @12:03PM (#1104671)

                              Nobody bothers continuing propaganda that no one believes.

                              That's the thing though - these expat South Afrikaners weren't just parroting a line, they really believed in their hearts that they were doing the natives a massive favor by governing how they live. Of course those same people also thought they were doing good work, God's work even, by translating the Billy Graham crusade to French live as it happened.

                              --
                              🌻🌻 [google.com]
                              • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Monday January 25 2021, @03:50PM (21 children)

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 25 2021, @03:50PM (#1104738) Journal
                                Why are you even bothering with this? We have more objective measures [soylentnews.org] than the feelz of some exiled elites from the 1970s. And fusty is notorious for pushing a nihilistic narrative and defending authoritarian governments.

                                Finally, this ties back into the story. Why should we care that some dispossessed researchers, living in their own little bubble, are concerned that we're not buying into some purely imaginary "ghasty future"?
                                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 25 2021, @04:19PM (1 child)

                                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 25 2021, @04:19PM (#1104750)

                                  Those elites were living a very middle class lifestyle in Belgium, small apartment, wife and daughter working as nurses. It matters because it's real - weeks of personal contact experience, as opposed to bullshit sociological cooked observations ground up and regurgitated through approved review channels.

                                  dispossessed researchers, living in their own little bubble, are concerned that we're not buying into some purely imaginary "ghasty future"?

                                  Me, personally, I care about and relate to those researchers and the personal experience they gather through their travels and work than some dispossessed crank on the internet, living in a bubble in BFE, pontificating about what the rest of the world should be doing and not doing when they rarely experience anything beyond the propaganda traded back and forth in their local valley.

                                  --
                                  🌻🌻 [google.com]
                                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:51AM

                                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:51AM (#1104961) Journal

                                    Those elites were living a very middle class lifestyle in Belgium, small apartment, wife and daughter working as nurses. It matters because it's real - weeks of personal contact experience, as opposed to bullshit sociological cooked observations ground up and regurgitated through approved review channels.

                                    It's a shaggy dog story [wikipedia.org]. And that dog isn't very shaggy!

                                    Me, personally, I care about and relate to those researchers and the personal experience they gather through their travels and work

                                    Being wrong for 50 years indicates that experience isn't sticking, assuming they're getting it in the first place.

                                    Also, why are you continuing to emphasize subjective experiences and feelz over science and knowledge? It's easier for you to just change your experiences and feelz than it is to change actual evidence!

                                    than some dispossessed crank on the internet, living in a bubble in BFE, pontificating about what the rest of the world should be doing and not doing when they rarely experience anything beyond the propaganda traded back and forth in their local valley.

                                    I take it you think there's an optics problem somewhere on my end? Show me the evidence! Not some cool fantasy, bro.

                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday January 25 2021, @10:01PM (18 children)

                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday January 25 2021, @10:01PM (#1104869) Journal

                                  defending authoritarian governments.

                                  Huh, never took ya for such a liar. I'll be gracious and say you are merely mistaken, and, closed minded, and obtuse, for personal reasons of course...

                                  --
                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:41AM (17 children)

                                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:41AM (#1104956) Journal

                                    Huh, never took ya for such a liar.

                                    Multiple times you've outright dismissed injustices by China and Russia. The typical approaches are either dismissing the injustice as outright propaganda, conflating the injustice with some perceived injustice on the part of the US (which is traditionally called "whataboutism"), or your typical ad hominem attack of accusing the person of lying. For a glaring example of both in the same post, conflating [soylentnews.org] a 2014 staged referendum in the Crimea after its invasion by Russia that rationalized annexation with normal presidential elections in the US.

                                    [khallow:] only 3% of the population allegedly voted against annexation of Crimea. What's the scenario by which one gets that kind of agreement?

                                    [fustakrakich:] It's the exact same as the scenario where only 5% of the population allegedly votes against democrat/republicans, you blithering idiot [funny hearing that come from you].

                                    Your propaganda is just a big a fraud as anybody else's.

                                    A brazen display of dishonesty with all the usual components (the accusations of lying come shortly afterward). And of course, imaginary US propaganda is more important than real Russian belligerence (and propaganda, of course).

                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:51AM (13 children)

                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @01:51AM (#1104962) Journal

                                      :-) You merely exhibit comprehension problems due to your own personal biases and choice to believe propaganda that suits them

                                      --
                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                      • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:26AM (4 children)

                                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:26AM (#1104978) Journal

                                        exhibit comprehension problems

                                        Long words. I imagine everyone who reads your stuff eventually develops "comprehension problems". What's the common factor?

                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:49AM (3 children)

                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:49AM (#1104982) Journal

                                          What's the common factor?

                                          98% reelection rate. Clearly you gotta problem

                                          --
                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:35PM (2 children)

                                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:35PM (#1105100) Journal
                                            The common factor remains you.
                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @04:36PM (1 child)

                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @04:36PM (#1105158) Journal

                                              This is your world. You can't blame me for what you put on the ballot. Tried to warn ya...

                                              --
                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:44PM (7 children)

                                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:44PM (#1105108) Journal
                                        I notice also that once again, you never bothered to justify what you wrote back then. It's immediately an ad hominem attack on me instead. That implies you can't defend what you wrote back then.
                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @04:39PM (6 children)

                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @04:39PM (#1105160) Journal

                                          you never bothered to justify what you wrote back then

                                          :-) The truth justifies itself, there's nothing to add. Just remove your blinders

                                          --
                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @09:54PM (5 children)

                                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @09:54PM (#1105244) Journal

                                            The truth justifies itself

                                            False. We don't start with an innate understanding of what is true or false. Even you.

                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:11PM (4 children)

                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:11PM (#1105277) Journal

                                              Yes, we do. Or do you deny gravity?

                                              --
                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:16PM (3 children)

                                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:16PM (#1105279) Journal

                                                Or do you deny gravity?

                                                What is the truth about gravity? I only have a PhD in mathematical physics, so use short words please.

                                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:31PM (2 children)

                                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @11:31PM (#1105287) Journal

                                                  What is the truth about gravity?

                                                  Its self evidence. Do you deny the existence of mass attraction?

                                                  See, it's not that you aren't able to comprehend what I write, you just refuse because of the conflict with your preconceptions and biases. Your mind is a monkey trap of conformity. Learn to let go of your false idols.

                                                  --
                                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 27 2021, @12:14AM (1 child)

                                                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 27 2021, @12:14AM (#1105297) Journal

                                                    Do you deny the existence of mass attraction?

                                                    What is "mass attraction"? Can't deny something exists when we don't know what it means in the first place.

                                                    Its self evidence.

                                                    It's not. I hope you're not going to lecture me on self-evident economics next and how usury fits into all that.

                                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday January 29 2021, @01:27AM

                                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday January 29 2021, @01:27AM (#1106414) Journal

                                                      I hope you're not going to lecture me on self-evident economics next and how usury fits into all that.

                                                      :-) Wasted effort... Pearls to the swine

                                                      --
                                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:05AM (2 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:05AM (#1104966) Journal
                                      Notice also the thread I linked to has two occasions where fustakrakich accuses me of lying. I'm not going to bother to dump more links, but this is far from a one-time thing. So fustakrakich who repeatedly in different threads accused me of lying, now states "never took ya for such a liar". Really?

                                      There's something wrong with the narrative, you lying asshole!
                                      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:52AM (1 child)

                                        by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:52AM (#1104983) Journal

                                        :-) Never took you seriously as one. Still don't really, but you are when you say those things about me. But, you know, knock yerself out...

                                        --
                                        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                        • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:38PM

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:38PM (#1105103) Journal

                                          Still don't really, but you are when you say those things about me.

                                          In other words, you just lied again either in your accusation "never took ya for such a liar" or now (I'm betting on both). Clean your own bullshit first.

                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:04AM (2 children)

                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:04AM (#1104368) Journal

                          :-) If that made any sense, I could respond...

                          So you stand with the war mongers, I am not surprised. Your head is full of garbage

                          --
                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @03:15AM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @03:15AM (#1104386)

                            Your head is full of garbagecabbage

                            Suggested improvement for the use of headspace.

                          • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:48AM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:48AM (#1104402) Journal

                            So you stand with the war mongers

                            "War mongers"? That's quite the ass pull.

                            Your head is full of garbage

                            Sounds like you're projecting hard again.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:55PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:55PM (#1104310)

                Nobody is denying that China is exporting more pollution than widgets. (Except maybe those whose pocket are lined by China.)

                China! One of the good guys! A third-world country exempt from the Paris Accord that will cripple the US economy.

            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:17PM (1 child)

              by Thexalon (636) on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:17PM (#1104499)

              On the list of Great Human Achievements, I'd put palm oil soap, well, not very high on the list: Humans have had soap for a very very long time, most of it not palm-based, so at best I'd consider that a minor incremental improvement.

              And if you think "Well, it must be great, lots of people are buying it", I'm pretty sure that's because they aren't aware of the costs they aren't paying for, e.g. environmental damage.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @06:44PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @06:44PM (#1104814)
                And what sort of soap oils and vegetable oils are you using? Are they from crops grown in places where only deserts existed before and not forests?

                Or are they from crops which are growing where there used to be forests before and the forests were cleared but that's fine because white people were doing the clearing and not brown people thousands of miles away?

                And that way you can whitewash it and call it "sustainable"?

                How about before making such a big fuss about palm oil, the UK, Western European countries and the USA replace their oil crops with forests till they have a higher forest percentage than the forest percentage of the palm oil producing countries? Then they won't look as big hypocrites as they already are.

                Go check out the forest percentage of the UK, France, Germany, USA sometime.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:34PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:34PM (#1104262)

          Western populations use exponentially more resources than poorer populations, the slash-and-burn is barely a blip on the radar in front of the mass of consumption.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:26PM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:26PM (#1104285) Journal

            the slash-and-burn is barely a blip on the radar in front of the mass of consumption.

            And yet, the article spends so much time talking about slash-and-burn. The problem here is that mass consumption just isn't that environmentally significant. But destruction of habitat and pollution are. People spend way too much time trying to fix non problems.

            And you're not going to fix the real problems until you fix poverty.

            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:18AM

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:18AM (#1104372) Journal

              And you're not going to fix the real problems until you fix poverty.

              That's easy! Just eliminate corruption and abolish usury...

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:35PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:35PM (#1105129)

          Those slash-and-burn palm oil plantations aren't happening in Western Europe, for another example.

          The UK and many Western European countries are more deforested than the top[1] major palm oil producing countries.

          From: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.FRST.ZS [worldbank.org]

          Forest area of:

          UK: 13% (ironically one of the most vocal?)
          France: 31%
          Greece: 32%
          Italy: 32%
          Germany: 33%
          USA: 34%
          Spain: 37%
          Canada: 38%
          EU: 40%

          Forest area of major soybean oil producing countries:
          China: 22.4%
          USA: 34%
          Brazil: 58.9%

          Forest area of major canola/rapeseed oil producing countries:
          Canada: 38%
          EU: 40%

          Forest area of sunflower oil producing countries:
          Ukraine: 16.7%
          Russia: 49.8%

          Forest area of major palm oil producing countries:
          Indonesia:49.9%
          Malaysia: 67.6%

          So how much of soybeans, sunflowers, canola and olive trees are grown on land that had no forest before and how much were grown on land that had forest?

          Before making such a big fuss about palm oil, the UK, Western European countries and other major complainers should replace their vegetable oil crops and other land with forests till they have a higher forest percentage than the forest percentage of the palm oil producing countries. Then they won't be as big hypocrites as they already are.

          [1] https://www.greenpalm.org/about-palm-oil/where-is-palm-oil-grown-2 [greenpalm.org]

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Tokolosh on Saturday January 23 2021, @02:08PM (2 children)

      by Tokolosh (585) on Saturday January 23 2021, @02:08PM (#1104164)

      Every day I read about the discovery of some new species or even a Genus. Every second day I read about the discovery of an animal that had been declared extinct.

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/12/biodiversity-2020-new-species-discoveries-animals-insects/ [weforum.org]
      https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/15-extinct-animals-found-again.html [worldatlas.com]

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:13PM (#1104255)

        Overwhelming those discovered species are classified as endangered. Following up on them 20 years from now and most will be extinct. Furthermore the number going extinct far exceeds the number discovered https://www.ecowatch.com/species-extinct-in-2020-2649768697.html?rebelltitem=6#rebelltitem6 [ecowatch.com]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:22PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:22PM (#1104258)

        Finding an extinct species just means it is still endangered and will limely be truly extinct soon. Your posts are so frequently spouting ignorant bulllshit with an air of educated cynicism. Just FYI.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bradley13 on Saturday January 23 2021, @03:21PM (12 children)

      by bradley13 (3053) on Saturday January 23 2021, @03:21PM (#1104176) Homepage Journal

      I absolutely agree with you: nature is incredibly resilient - when it is allowed to be. That's part of the reason that I don't take global warming at all seriously: nature will adapt just fine.

      If.

      If it is allowed to. The root problem that we face is that people don't allow nature to recover. There are too many of us, and we are all over the planet, in any place where life can thrive. The only reason that Chernobyl has recovered, is because people are not allowed to go there.

      If we want nature to be resilient, we need to leave large swathes of the planet absolutely alone. Take national parks, for example, and close most of them off to people. No logging, no hunting, no camping - let nature do its thing.

      --
      Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:10PM (10 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:10PM (#1104209)

        I haven't updated my blog much, or at all recently: https://5050by2150.wordpress.com/ [wordpress.com] but others have started promoting the ideas: https://www.half-earthproject.org/ [half-earthproject.org]

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:58PM (9 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @06:58PM (#1104249) Journal
          On the half-earth project, did you know that we are already 30% [protectedplanet.net] of the way there?
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:05PM (8 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:05PM (#1104277)

            Read the blog, the 30% we have protected is 90%+ garbage for h. sapiens and our familiar species. Starting with: so we protected Antarctica? Slow clap. We need to strongly protect a representative 50%, and there are degrees of protection - much of that 30% is barely protected at all: "protected" fisheries where commercial fishing is still permitted, sometimes without catch limits or seasons, U.S. National Forests which are "sustainably managed" by planting monocultures of the most commercially valuable trees, game preserves where poachers operate virtually unchecked.

            Not all protected land or sea necessarily needs Chernobyl level exclusion, but the brutal simplicity of Menschen raus, люди вне, (Humans stay out.) works orders of magnitude better to allow biodiversity to thrive than any complicated set of exclusions, provisions, and management rules based on our incomplete understanding of what makes nature work; especially when combined with the necessary doses of realpolitik to get any kind of protection legislated at all.

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:16PM (7 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @08:16PM (#1104281) Journal

              Read the blog, the 30% we have protected is 90%+ garbage for h. sapiens and our familiar species.

              And that's supposed to be relevant why? Does it not count until we kick millions of people out of 50% of our cities?

              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:48PM (6 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 23 2021, @10:48PM (#1104323)

                If you only preserve penguin-land, desert, and Alaskan Tundra - until such time as you decide you want the petroleum from the Tundra then you F that landscape for 1000 years, you're going to be preserving a very limited set of species, most of which don't do much with h. sapiens in a natural setting.

                It counts when there are significant, safe, functioning ecosystems representative of the kinds of lands we have moved into and obliterated the existing ecosystems from in the last 500 or so years. 99% of Europe (99.9 if you discount Poland) & 98% of the lower 48 US has had the trees clearcut in the last 500 years, most of them in the last 50. That means that the forest ecosystems that had built up over thousands to millions of years, or repopulated from nearby forests after they were burned by nature or man in the distant past, are not repopulating anymore - the ecosystems that developed there can't rebuild because they've been too fragmented and too many species simply extinct. Brazil is working hard to catch up, as is much of South America and Africa.

                Keep the cities, sure, but farmland doesn't count as "wild space," including tree farms. You're near Yellowstone? Go take a walk on some commercial timberland, then take a walk in a natural forest - the difference is stark, unless all you see is the dollars you can get from cutting the trees.

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 24 2021, @05:24AM (5 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 24 2021, @05:24AM (#1104409) Journal

                  If you only preserve penguin-land, desert, and Alaskan Tundra - until such time as you decide you want the petroleum from the Tundra then you F that landscape for 1000 years, you're going to be preserving a very limited set of species, most of which don't do much with h. sapiens in a natural setting.

                  That short list doesn't get you to 30%. And what's supposed to be the big deal with "F that landscape" for a 1000 years. The ecosystem doesn't care.

                  It counts when there are significant, safe, functioning ecosystems representative of the kinds of lands we have moved into and obliterated the existing ecosystems from in the last 500 or so years. 99% of Europe (99.9 if you discount Poland) & 98% of the lower 48 US has had the trees clearcut in the last 500 years, most of them in the last 50.

                  In the US, 7% of forest is old growth. And 500 years is nonsense. There's huge swaths of the US forest that never had old growth forest of that age in the first place, because the forests burn down every few decades naturally, even without humans of any sort present.

                  Keep the cities, sure, but farmland doesn't count as "wild space," including tree farms. You're near Yellowstone? Go take a walk on some commercial timberland, then take a walk in a natural forest - the difference is stark, unless all you see is the dollars you can get from cutting the trees.

                  Depends on the "wild space". The areas affected by the 1988 Yellowstone fires look like commercial forest with trees of the same narrow band of age. And Yellowstone's lodge pole pine forests rarely get very old due to its tendency to burn.

                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @07:14PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @07:14PM (#1104528)

                    You're so desoerate to not see the problems. Or you're too stupid to notice the signs. I'm gonna go with "desperate" based on your track record of ignoring inconvenient data.

                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 25 2021, @02:29AM (2 children)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 25 2021, @02:29AM (#1104594)

                    The areas affected by the 1988 Yellowstone fires

                    Fires started by what?

                    And Yellowstone's lodge pole pine forests rarely get very old due to its tendency to burn.

                    And how long have the wolves been allowed back into Yellowstone? Have they reached pre-Lewis and Clarke levels of population even now? Predators very much influence the species mix of forests. Without over-grazing by "cute cuddly" deer, what would regrow in the lodge pole pine forests after the next fire?

                    In the US, 7% of forest is old growth.

                    Counting Alaska now, are we? Interior Alaska, while more habitable for humans than Antarctica, is still clearly not the most representative collection of "cradle of humanity" species.

                    And 500 years is nonsense. There's huge swaths of the US forest that never had old growth forest of that age in the first place, because the forests burn down every few decades naturally, even without humans of any sort present.

                    In the South East forests were fire adapted. They would burn every few years at times, but the old growth trees would survive those fires. The 20 acres we owned north of Arcadia Florida was forested with old growth pine until the 1890s, then they built a sawmill 6 miles downriver, then they cut and floated the logs to the sawmill (some logs sank and were recovered by our neighbors in the 1980s, sold for thousands of dollars a piece), those that floated to the sawmill were used to build a small town, which burned down in the early 1900s. The area has been "fire controlled" since then and is regrown with non-fire adapted oaks which will, as soon as the fire department quits responding, burn down after then next drought+lightning storm. Fire adapted old growth pines would live hundreds of years, 500 was not unusual, until the 1890s.

                    And what's supposed to be the big deal with "F that landscape" for a 1000 years. The ecosystem doesn't care.

                    Doesn't it? Care to comment on what has happened to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico around Deepwater Horizon?

                    --
                    🌻🌻 [google.com]
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @03:11AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @03:11AM (#1104606)

                      Thanks for trying but khallow is paid to push a pro-oil narrative.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 25 2021, @06:18AM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 25 2021, @06:18AM (#1104628) Journal

                      The areas affected by the 1988 Yellowstone fires

                      Fires started by what?

                      Multiple causes [wikipedia.org], some man-caused like someone dropping a cigarette into combustible materials, abandoned campfire, or power lines. And natural - lightning strikes. There were 250 identifiable fire starts in that year in or near Yellowstone.

                      And how long have the wolves been allowed back into Yellowstone? Have they reached pre-Lewis and Clarke levels of population even now? Predators very much influence the species mix of forests. Without over-grazing by "cute cuddly" deer, what would regrow in the lodge pole pine forests after the next fire?

                      Lodge pole pines. The trees are well optimized for spreading through fire.

                      Counting Alaska now, are we? Interior Alaska, while more habitable for humans than Antarctica, is still clearly not the most representative collection of "cradle of humanity" species.

                      Since when has "cradle of humanity" species been at all relevant to this discussion?

                      And 500 years is nonsense. There's huge swaths of the US forest that never had old growth forest of that age in the first place, because the forests burn down every few decades naturally, even without humans of any sort present.

                      In the South East forests were fire adapted. They would burn every few years at times, but the old growth trees would survive those fires. The 20 acres we owned north of Arcadia Florida was forested with old growth pine until the 1890s, then they built a sawmill 6 miles downriver, then they cut and floated the logs to the sawmill (some logs sank and were recovered by our neighbors in the 1980s, sold for thousands of dollars a piece), those that floated to the sawmill were used to build a small town, which burned down in the early 1900s. The area has been "fire controlled" since then and is regrown with non-fire adapted oaks which will, as soon as the fire department quits responding, burn down after then next drought+lightning storm. Fire adapted old growth pines would live hundreds of years, 500 was not unusual, until the 1890s.

                      So there was old forest in the US? Who knew?

                      I don't think that's relevant.

                      And what's supposed to be the big deal with "F that landscape" for a 1000 years. The ecosystem doesn't care.

                      Doesn't it? Care to comment on what has happened to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico around Deepwater Horizon?

                      Bunch of oil entered the ecosystem. Sounds like it's in the process of leaving the ecosystem though those natural systems that don't care. I certain don't expect it to stick around for a thousand years, given that the gulf has a lot of oil enter the ecosystem naturally. If oil wasn't being digested or buried, there'd be a vast amount of it in the gulf depths already.

      • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Tuesday January 26 2021, @09:15PM

        by cmdrklarg (5048) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @09:15PM (#1105232)

        That's part of the reason that I don't take global warming at all seriously: nature will adapt just fine.

        Dealing with AGW is not about whether nature will adapt (it will, as you say), but whether humanity can adapt, and how painful that adaptation will be.

        --
        The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:32PM (#1104302)

      "There is no scientific consensus that life is important for the planet."

      - Professor Hugo Farnsworth

      A scientist!

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:49PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:49PM (#1104309)

      That is what we are, an invasive specie.

      For only $19 per month, you can help save the European Wolf from extinction.

      And we'll send you ribbon with a picture of a wolf that you can proudly wear on your lapel to prove how superior you are.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:50PM

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:50PM (#1104518)

      We don't need fewer people, we just need to do a much better job managing the resources we have. Unfortunately, that just doesn't seem to be possible with many human cultures, because they're too greedy and too intent on owning personal cars and having huge houses widely separated from each other. Of course, not everyone lives like Americans, but it seems that in most places, when they become wealthy enough (like China), that's the ideal they aspire to, and it simply isn't possible for everyone on the planet to live like that.

      As for nature, sure, pockets of nature will survive in the places that are too radioactive for humans to live, and where the land isn't turned into desert (desertification is a big problem now too: the Sahara is growing, as are other deserts), and if humans go extinct it'll eventually bounce back, but as humans we're generally concerned with our own survival and well-being, and there doesn't seem to be a way for us to do this any more without experiencing civilization collapse.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:02AM (34 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:02AM (#1104136)

    There is this theory that proposes to look at the entire Earth ecosystem as one symbioltic organism.

    Humanity is Gaia's cancer. And just like cancer, it's either going to kill the host - and itself in the process - or it's going to have to be eradicated.
    Because clearly humanity as a species can't exercize restraint.

    I fully believe that. That's why I chose not to have children, so they don't get to grow up on the fucked up planet we're leaving to future generations for one thing, and they don't get to contribute to the problem too.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by vux984 on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:53PM

      by vux984 (5045) on Saturday January 23 2021, @12:53PM (#1104149)

      "There is this theory that proposes to look at the entire Earth ecosystem as one symbioltic organism."
      "Humanity is Gaia's cancer. And just like cancer, it's either going to kill the host - and itself in the process - or it's going to have to be eradicated."

      Maybe humanity is to "Gaia-caterpiller" it agents of metamorphosis to "Gaia-butterfly". Or humanity actively brings about the next "Cambrian explosion of species" to create biodiversity at levels never seen before. Or maybe humanity spreads not just itself but Gaia to a thousand other planets... at worst humanity wipes itself and most large species out; and Gaia has millions of years of tranquility as bacteria, planktons, cockroaches, and lichens claim the planet.

      Gaia survived the meteor strike. It takes ice ages and volcanoes in stride. The mass extinction of the dinosaurs just led to the rise of all new species. There is even a place for swarms of locusts, forest fires, and cancers in Gaia -- you need something to clear the space for new things to move in. Worst case (for us) that's our role. Best case (for us) we adapt and find an equilibrium. But either way, Gaia will be fine.

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by Lester on Saturday January 23 2021, @01:03PM (3 children)

      by Lester (6231) on Saturday January 23 2021, @01:03PM (#1104150) Journal

      Considering Earth as it were a being is just a nonsense of 1960's new age.

      Earth doesn't give a damn about what is running in its surface. Ecosystem doesn't give a damn about what species exist.

      Ecosystem is just a mechanism. Under static conditions, it reaches an equilibrium. When there is a big change, it takes some time to reach a equilibrium, That is all. In this case, human kind is a big disruption, finally it will reach an equilibrium. We, as human, may say the new equilibrium is ugly (less biodiversity), but ecosystem doesn't care.

      Nevertheless, I don't think we are going to disappear as specie in a near future. What I think is that our civilization is going to collapse because we are depleting the resources that keep it humming.

      • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:20AM (1 child)

        by deimtee (3272) on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:20AM (#1104357) Journal

        It hasn't reachrd an equilibrium yet. That implies a steady state and is the sort of idea that promotes a rose-coloured disneyesque view of nature. It is more like a big pot of stew with the heat turned up high. It's bubbling and splattering bits over the side, some bits get burnt, and the whole mess is constantly turning over. There is no steady state until everything burns down to charcoal and stinks up the kitchen.

        --
        If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
        • (Score: 2) by Lester on Sunday January 24 2021, @09:54AM

          by Lester (6231) on Sunday January 24 2021, @09:54AM (#1104450) Journal

          First, I didn't say that we have reached the equilibrium, in fact the other way around. What we see now are rapid changes. We are still in expansion phase.

          Where have you read in my comment Disneyesque and rosy colored? Earth Ecosystem is just a mechanism, in fact, from a human moral point of view, it is quite cruel. It doesn't care whether there is a rich biodiversity or a few species. For instance, humans, rats and crockroaches. What is Disneyesque is all that stuff of Mother Gaia.

          By the way, In the long term the universe will be burnt by entropy, but there are temporal steady states. For instance, the Amazon jungle were western civilization hasn't arrived yet, have stayed the same way, in a steady state, for centuries or maybe thousands of years.

      • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:40PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:40PM (#1105104)

        Earth as a single organism called Gaia is just framing. It's just a thought experiment.

        You would be a fool though to deny that multi-organism groups often act as single entities, seemingly with a single purpose.

        We are all interconnected by the air we breath, the water we drink, the food we eat. It would be foolish to claim each man is an island.

        Rather, try to expand your perspective. Our organs show evidence that they evolved from independent organisms; does the liver know what the whole body does? Does it question its limited universe? Can it perceive its purpose in the larger being? Or does it only consider that it receives a steady stream of nutrients, and it's pleasure in sorting out the garbage?

        Of course, our livers are not sentient beings. They can't know these things.

        We are. The greatest test of our intelligence is whether we are able to see the bigger picture. To perceive the ways in which our individual actions affect the larger system, as the actions of others can affect us. To gaze up at the cosmos and realize, I am not the center of the universe.

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @01:46PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @01:46PM (#1104157)

      > That's why I chose not to have children, so they don't get to grow up on the fucked up planet we're leaving to future generations for one thing, and they don't get to contribute to the problem too.

      Seconded. I had some other reasons for not having kids, but the reasons you mention were high on the list.

      Arguably, the "greenest" thing anyone can do at this time is to not have kids.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Saturday January 23 2021, @03:59PM (23 children)

      by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @03:59PM (#1104178) Journal

      That's why I chose not to have children

      I appreciate your sentiments, but I take a different view. The old cliche that "children are the future" is true, and I think it is our responsibility to bring new people into the world who are properly brought up and properly educated to treat the Earth with the respect and care that it needs.

      You are right that the human population has increased too rapidly, but the rate of rise is slowing as more countries become developed and people have better education etc.

      What annoys me is the large number of seemingly willfully ignorant people who refuse to believe the hard science behind climate change, for example.

      I've tried to do my bit, but I know that it's not enough on its own. I have made sure that my house is well insulated to reduce energy usage and both cars we have are hybrids. I've also been working from home for ten months due to the pandemic so I haven't been commuting, I still eat meat, but I have cut down.

      We are moving to a different area for a lifestyle change soon, where I'll hopefully be mostly remote working. Next year, if all goes well, I'll be building a new house with triple glazing and a ground source heat pump for heating, and hopefully solar panels too.

      We - the human race - really need to step up our efforts to find new ways of producing energy cleanly, and we need to make sure that it's available to all, in all countries. We can't go on burning fossil fuels.

      • (Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:11PM (15 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:11PM (#1104253) Journal

        What annoys me is the large number of seemingly willfully ignorant people who refuse to believe the hard science behind climate change, for example.

        Such as the published factor of three error bar on our estimate of long term climate sensitivity to a doubling of CO2? Or the terrible economic models? There's a lot of exceedingly soft science in the field just from the researchers.

        We - the human race - really need to step up our efforts to find new ways of producing energy cleanly, and we need to make sure that it's available to all, in all countries. We can't go on burning fossil fuels.

        Well, how many centuries or millennia do we have?

        • (Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:16PM (14 children)

          by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:16PM (#1104256) Journal

          I might have expected that sort of reply from a far-right Market-worshipping misanthrope. Why am I not surprised?

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by khallow on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:47PM (13 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:47PM (#1104268) Journal
            Well, if you ever had experience with shit that works, you'd appreciate markets too (as well as the beneficial effect of them on mankind). But having said that, I said nothing about markets (or the ridiculous claim of hating mankind). That was your willful ignorance showing not mine!

            The problems with climate change hysteria go way beyond anything having to do with markets or dubious attitudes towards their fellow humans. It's a pretty pure version of confirmation bias.
            • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:48PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @09:48PM (#1104308)

              But, the market created khallow? Or is he just an externality?

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:20AM (11 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:20AM (#1104356)
              > It's a pretty pure version of confirmation bias.


              Oh the irony.
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 24 2021, @05:33AM (10 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 24 2021, @05:33AM (#1104414) Journal
                If you can think of an example where I do that, then let me (and the reader) know. But anonymous insinuations don't cut it.
                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @09:39AM (5 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @09:39AM (#1104449)
                  Question: If you don't even see what I'm referring to when it's in recent memory, how would linking to the very post I'm very obviously referring to bring it closer to your ass so you could see it unobscured?
                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:05PM (4 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 24 2021, @04:05PM (#1104497) Journal

                    If you don't even see what I'm referring to when it's in recent memory, how would linking to the very post I'm very obviously referring to bring it closer to your ass so you could see it unobscured?

                    You just answered the question. Currently, we just have your word for it.

                    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @10:38PM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @10:38PM (#1104560)

                      We've played that game before too, you just evade by spewing more bullshit instead of owning up to anything ever.

                      Thankfully most users here are not as blinded by their political predilections and are very concerned about the future of our planet. Now we site back and watch you slowly slide into irrelevance as people realize how faulty your confident sounding posts really are.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 25 2021, @05:49AM (2 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 25 2021, @05:49AM (#1104624) Journal

                        We've played that game before too, you just evade by spewing more bullshit instead of owning up to anything ever.

                        The problem is that there's nothing to "own up to" at present.

                        Thankfully most users here are not as blinded by their political predilections and are very concerned about the future of our planet. Now we site back and watch you slowly slide into irrelevance as people realize how faulty your confident sounding posts really are.

                        Cool fantasy, bro.

                        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @07:30PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 25 2021, @07:30PM (#1104828)

                          We know, you deny all your faults cause yer super wicked smart *eyeroll*

                          Which step is denial? Shouldn't you almost be over it by now?

                          • (Score: 1, Touché) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:32AM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:32AM (#1104979) Journal

                            cause yer super wicked smart

                            Smart is relative.

                            Which step is denial? Shouldn't you almost be over it by now?

                            Funny, how you post (and apparently post and post), but never say anything.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @07:19PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @07:19PM (#1104531)

                  You sound like TMB, and I imagine every example of you doing the thing will be met with some gaslighting goal post shifting bullshit and a continuation of your bad faith approach to discussions. Blech

                  • (Score: 1, Touché) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:36AM (2 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @02:36AM (#1104980) Journal
                    It's called rational debate. Presenting evidence and reasoning is only the first step. You refuse to take even the first step. Refusing to do that and deflecting from your failure with ad hominems about me is a strong demonstration that you're full of shit.

                    And because you post anonymously, I can never probe your past words. It's a genuine cowardice.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 26 2021, @07:48AM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 26 2021, @07:48AM (#1105067)

                      "It's called rational debate."

                      lol read the mueller report you lying sack of shit

                      just libertarian after libertarian that aren't real libertarians and too fucking dim to understand their own limitations

                      • (Score: 1, Touché) by khallow on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:42PM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 26 2021, @12:42PM (#1105105) Journal

                        lol read the mueller report you lying sack of shit

                        Why? Page numbers or fuck off. I don't play argument by obfuscation. Nobody including you has ever given me a reason to read that word dump.

                        just libertarian after libertarian that aren't real libertarians and too fucking dim to understand their own limitations

                        Sounds like the problem here is that you are a dishonest idiot. You can fix that. I can't.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:42PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:42PM (#1104266)

        LMFAO. "I care about the environment, so I had a kid and bought two cars". You are the problem, fool.

        • (Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:58PM (2 children)

          by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 23 2021, @07:58PM (#1104273) Journal

          Get a grip, brave Mr AC. At least khallow has the guts to troll under his account.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:29AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @01:29AM (#1104376)

            While the AC you are responding to comes across as a dick. There is a valid point in his comment.

            The environmental damage from mining, fossil fuel extraction, and CO2 emissions embodied in the manufacturing of two cars is huge, and they being hybrids doesn't make up for that (EV doesn't either).

            I bought a small fuel efficient hatchback in an attempt to do less harm (when I purchased it, its lifetime CO2 emissions [including manufacture, operation and disposal] was estimated to be lower than all hybrid passenger cars on the market except one, and that hybrid was more than double the price of the hatchback), but I realize that by purchasing and driving that car, I am contributing to the problem. Not to the degree as the flag waving moron in a giant SUV, but still pushing things in the wrong direction.

            I don't think our species has the foresight and willingness to put others' interests (in this case, future generations and other species) ahead of their own, if it means any kind of deprivation. And, I believe it will take a lot more than driving hybrids and small fuel efficient cars, or even EVs to make a material difference in our trajectory.

            So, yeah the dick AC is right that even people who care are still not doing what is necessary since that would result in a negative impact upon our lifestyles that we apparently are not willing to make.

            - a fellow hypocrite

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:59PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:59PM (#1104521)

              Buying a car at all is just contributing to the problem, as is living in a place where you need to have a car to live a reasonably comfortable life. Humans, by and large, should not own personal cars at all: they should be mostly living in cities (small or large) where the density is high, the city is walkable, and they can get around by walking, cycling, and by train/subway. We have cities like this now, just not in America (except NYC, which isn't doing so hot right now because of long-term mismanagement plus Covid). If you want to see how humans can live very well and without a car, just travel to Japan. There's various cities in Europe that do a reasonably good job too.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:13AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 24 2021, @12:13AM (#1104354)

        You are right that the human population has increased too rapidly, but the rate of rise is slowing as more countries become developed and people have better education etc.

        Up until the limit at which entitled fatsos in certain developed countries decide to teach the controversy. Fortunately, it seems they are self-limiting too nowadays [worldometers.info].

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:54PM (1 child)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Sunday January 24 2021, @06:54PM (#1104519)

        You are right that the human population has increased too rapidly, but the rate of rise is slowing as more countries become developed and people have better education etc.

        What annoys me is the large number of seemingly willfully ignorant people who refuse to believe the hard science behind climate change, for example.

        One problem I see is that these willfully ignorant people are having kids much more than the ones who aren't.

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by hopdevil on Saturday January 23 2021, @04:54PM

      by hopdevil (3356) on Saturday January 23 2021, @04:54PM (#1104203)

      That's why I chose not to have children

      I've heard this sentiment before. What you are really saying is you don't want children because you are happily being Gaia's cancer and raising children would be inconvenient for you. All that extra cash you now have goes towards fighting climate change or ensuring the planet you leave behind is fucked?

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by mhajicek on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:59PM (1 child)

      by mhajicek (51) on Saturday January 23 2021, @05:59PM (#1104224)

      Thank you for not having children. It will leave more resources available for mine.

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pdfernhout on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:01PM

      by pdfernhout (5984) on Saturday January 23 2021, @11:01PM (#1104328) Homepage

      ... on the joy of expectation: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/openvirgle/qDQaaLewHKY/ysihGqv6D6wJ [google.com]

      Something I wrote around 1992. Contents below:

      ==== A letter from Gaia to humanity on the joy of expectation

      Don't cry for me. When I let you evolve I knew it might cost the
      rhino and the tiger. I knew the rain forests would be cut down. I
      knew the rivers would be poisoned. I knew the ocean would turn to
      filth. I knew it would cost most of the species that are me.

      What is the death of most of my species to me? It is only sleep.
      In ten million years I will have it all back again and more. This
      has happened many times already. Complex and fragile species will
      break along with the webs they are in. Robust and widespread
      species will persist along with simpler webs. In time these
      survivors will radiate to cover the globe in diversity again. Each
      time I come back in beauty like a bush pruned and regrown.

      Be happy for me. Over and over again I have tried to give birth to
      more Gaias. Time and time again I have failed. With you I have
      hope. I cannot tell you how happy I am.

      Your minds, spacecraft, biospheres, and computers give me new realms
      to evolve into. With your minds I evolve as ideas in inner space.
      With your technology I can evolve into self replicating habitats in
      outer space. Your computers and minds contain model Gaias I can
      talk to; they are my first children. Your space craft and
      biospheres are a step to spreading Gaias throughout the stars.

      Cry, yes. Cry for yourselves. I am sorry those alive now will not
      live to see the splendor to come from what you have started. I am
      sorry for all the suffering your species and others will endure.
      You who live now will remember the tiger and the rain forest and
      mourn for them and yourselves. You will know what was lost without
      ever knowing what will be gained. I too mourn for them and you.

      There is so much joy that awaits us. We must look up and forward.
      We must go on to a future - my future, our future. After eons of
      barrenness I am finally giving birth. Help me lest it all fall away
      and take eons more before I get this close again to having the
      children I always wanted.

      ===========

      The preceeding is something I just scanned in from 1992, written while I was
      in the SUNY Stony Brook Ecology and Evolution PhD program (where I had gone
      to learn more towards simulating gardens and space habitats). I had learned
      there that it took about 10 million years to regenerate lots of biodiversity
      from a large asteroid impact event, and this had happened several times in
      Earth's history.

      The following is a related statement also just scanned in of what inspired
      it written at the same time.

      =================

      If one accepted that modern industrial civilization has initiated
      a great die-off of species comparable to the one sixty-five
      million years ago, how should one feel about this?

      Is overwhelming sadness and anger the best emotional response? On
      the surface it may seem so. Apparently modern civilization and
      the accompanying pollution and deforestation are pulling apart a
      tapestry woven over billions of years. Anger at the short sighted
      and narrow values driving industry may seem well placed.
      Certainly feelings of joy and excitement would seem out of place.

      Here are a few thoughts that may affect one's feelings. High
      levels of biodiversity can be generated from very low ones in
      about ten million years. On the time scales of the earth this may
      not be a blink of an eye, but it is a short nap. To humans this
      may mean a great loss, but Gaia might barely notice. It has after
      all been only sixty-five million years since the last die off.

      Not all species will be affected equally. A simplification will
      occur where the more specialized creatures will be the most likely
      to go extinct. Complex food webs will either loose species to
      become simpler or they will be replaced entirely by new simpler
      webs. This will create opportunities for generalists to move
      into vacated niches. It will also produce more robust species and
      food webs. In the long term this may make the biosphere healthier
      in the same way pruning a bush makes it grow more.

      New forms of life existing as ideas are now living and will likely
      continue to expand. Language and culture and technology are
      possible with humanity's growth. These allow new patterns to be
      created and selected for, giving evolution a new canvas. Also
      possible are new combinations of ideas and life as philosophies
      evolve in combination with ecosystems.

      A process that may well lead to the extinction of 30 to 99 percent
      of all species has been initiated unintentionally. Conservation
      of biodiversity should be done if only for aesthetic and spiritual
      reasons. Anger and sadness should not overwhelm one and keep one
      from making the best of the inevitable.- Paul D. Fernhout 6/22/92

      --
      The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
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