from the maybe-they'll-be-less-surly dept.
USPS picks Oshkosh Defense for future electric mail trucks:
The United States Postal Service has made a selection for its future mail trucks -- and they're going electric. On Tuesday, Oshkosh Defense announced the USPS has selected the Wisconsin-based military vehicle manufacturer to build the Next Generation Delivery Vehicle, or NGDV. The USPS awarded the company a 10-year, $482 million contract to make the new mail trucks.
Not only will Oshkosh help the USPS go electric with battery-electric mail carrier trucks, but it also plans to include "fuel-efficient low-emission internal combustion engine vehicles" as part of the contract. It's unclear what purpose these will serve, however, especially noting President Joe Biden's pledge to move the federal fleet to 100% electric vehicles. Oshkosh did not immediately return a request for comment.
The AP stated that
The postal service last updated its mail-delivery trucks 30 years ago, and there have been major changes in the service's operations since then. Traditional mail volumes have declined, while the service now delivers millions of packages from online retailers like Amazon that did not exist when the previous mail vehicle was introduced.
and that an all-electric proposal lost out:
The choice of Wisconsin-based Oshkosh is a big miss for Ohio-based electric vehicle startup Workhorse Group, which put in an all-electric bid for the vehicles. Shares of Workhorse fell more than 47% Tuesday.
On the plus side, according to Car and Driver
They will also have air conditioning and airbags—both of which the current trucks lack—as well as heat, a 360-degree camera, a front and rear collision avoidance system, and automated emergency braking.
On the other hand, Morgan Sung's article at Mashable is titled "The multi-billion dollar USPS modernization looks like...a duck", so there's that I guess
Additional coverage at vice, Trucks.com
Press Release:
U.S. Postal Service Awards Contract to Launch Multi-Billion-Dollar Modernization of Postal Delivery Vehicle Fleet
Related Stories
FedEx plans for an all-electric delivery fleet by 2040:
FedEx will replace its current delivery trucks with electric models until its entire fleet is made up of zero—emission vehicles by 2040. The company is making the transition as a way to help it achieve its goal to reach carbon neutral status in the same year. In its announcement, FedEx says its will slowly phase out its existing parcel delivery trucks and that 50 percent of its global vehicle purchases will be electric by 2025. All its vehicle purchases will be EVs by 2030, and it's aiming to retire its gas-powered trucks completely 10 years after that.
[...] FedEx also plans to work with customers to make their supply chains sustainable with carbon–neutral shipping offerings and sustainable packaging solutions. In addition, it will invest money into making its facilities worldwide more efficient and to give them the capability to run on renewable energy.
Related:
UPS Buying Thousands of Electric Vans; Teaming Up with Waymo to Accelerate the Future of Delivery
USPS Picks Oshkosh Defense for Greener Mail Trucks
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @01:57PM (1 child)
Did anyone really expect the post office to give a $482 million dollar contract to a startup?
I hope the investor/speculators lose more than just 47% of their over-inflated valuations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 25 2021, @12:24AM
You should do the math. $482/50000 is $9700/u. I'm skeptical about all of this, frankly. A Honda I4 long block is $4500, no accessories, no plumbing. Plus running gear and body? I can't imagine that any battery tech is going to be even close to that.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday February 24 2021, @02:22PM (11 children)
Being EV, presumably with a skateboard battery tray, I'm going to assume the duck-nose is all about crash protection for head-on collisions.
Also, those ICE driven vehicles are probably to bridge the gap in areas where the 100% electric fleet would not have sufficient range between existing recharge points to carry out the mail delivery mission.
Did the 100% EV mandate consider the costs of infrastructure buildout? Will that infrastructure be exclusive to postal users, or will we be getting an actual nationwide EV charging network on the back of the mail carrier service?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday February 24 2021, @11:19PM (10 children)
It say they're also providing a high-efficiency ICE solution - could be both will use the same body to save on costs. And even with electric you still have to have somewhere to put the motor, transmission, and differential*, air conditioner, wiper fluid reservoir, etc. Preferably easily accessible to keep expenses low (and morale high) for the fleet mechanics. EVs need less maintenance, but not zero. And a ridiculous-looking low nose is a good place to put stuff to make it easy to work on.
*I'm assuming they're not using relatively unproven in-wheel motors, especially given the rough roads many have to deal with.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 25 2021, @02:15AM (9 children)
So much of the EV and ICE market is moving to a "drop the subframe with engine/batteries/transmission included" service model - if you don't have a lift and a hydraulic table to drop the guts out on, you're not going to be doing major maintenance. Just yesterday I was with a mechanic friend who fixed a starter on a BMW X5, didn't quite have to drop the engine, but did need to unbolt the exhaust pipes to get at it and tighten the cable that had come loose (from the factory...) If the starter needed replacing, that could have been more of a drop the engine situation.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday February 25 2021, @03:55AM (7 children)
Believe me, I'm familiar with the trend. I once replaced my own alternator on a post-2000 Volvo, and the official procedure started with removing the radiator. My automotive competence being limited, I spent an hour playing the world's most annoying game of Tetris instead.
However, my understanding is that ease of maintenance gets far more design consideration for commercial and fleet-specific vehicles. You're never going to find a bread truck, UPS van, etc. that requires you to start at the tailpipe to replace a front blinker. And especially for an EV, I'd bet good money that you could make at least 90% of the most common maintenance issues easily accessible under the hood.
And if you want the crumple-zone anyway, why wouldn't you? (other than evil)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 25 2021, @01:57PM (6 children)
I wonder when fleet customers will lose their grip on the disposable trend, or maybe they don't care... everything has become plastic, since they have figured out how to make plastic that will withstand the heat and oil/gasoline exposure for 10.01 years or 100,001 miles whichever comes first...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday February 25 2021, @03:34PM (5 children)
I think a lot of the trend is firmly our own fault - consumers don't care about maintenance costs.
I mean, we care when they come up - but if you have two seemingly identical products, and one costs 30% more up front but the cost of ownership is 50% cheaper over 20 years or whatever...most people will buy the cheaper-up-front version. And so that's what manufacturers make. There may even be some planned obsolescence in there - why wouldn't there be when purchasing habits firmly state that consumers don't care?
Fleet vehicles though are mostly purchased by bean-counters whose primary job is to minimize long-term expenses. They're almost always looking at the cost/year of service life, and could care less about the sticker price. And so to compete in that market manufacturers design fleet vehicles to minimize total cost of ownership rather than sticker price. Of course there's always marketing lies and reputation cash-in to cloud the issue, but probably less than with consumer products, as good bean-counters have long memories and good B.S. detectors.
Turnover is probably also an issue - fleet vehicles are typically purchased with the intent of using them until they're about to start falling apart (the old LLV mail trucks were purchased for an expected service life of 25 years, which was then stretched to 30 due to budget constraints), while many consumers are looking for an excuse to buy a shiny new car after just a handful of years.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 25 2021, @03:56PM (4 children)
As a consumer, where's my input to the process?
I mean, we purchased a new vehicle in 1991, and another in 1999, and none since (still have those two). We have purchased some used "beaters" alongside those - latest being a 2002 Mercedes S430 - originally sold for $80K we got it for $12K 5 years ago and have put 70,000 miles on it so far. I can't imagine that we are influencing new car design with that purchase choice vs. another...
Plastic oil pans and intake manifolds - yeah, I'll say that's planned. After 10 years they're cracking and brittle beyond serviceability. My tinfoil hat says the governments of the world are also backing this trend somehow - control of the fleet: ensure that antiques don't run anymore.
You can spin this as another aspect of "trickle down" economics. The people who choose to spend $50K up to $120K and more on new vehicles every couple of years are dictating what gets made, the rest of us just deal with their cast-offs at deep discount - but when you can afford $80K for a new car every two years do you really care if it sells for $40K or $20K used?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday February 25 2021, @05:16PM (3 children)
Normally your input is every time you buy a new vehicle. It can be subtle, there's often not a wide spectrum to buy from, and if you care more about style, brand, and other such things you may have virtually no spectrum at all. But every time you buy a vehicle that doesn't have below-average amortized cost of ownership for its class, you're voting for cars to be made cheaper up front at the expense of higher maintenance costs.
If you want a more direct voice you can also call customer service, write letters, etc. and ask why they don't offer vehicles with better total cost of ownership. Probably partiularly powerful in the context of "I really wanted to buy your X, but settled for your competitor's Y because of its better TCO", or perhaps even better "I was considering your competitor's X, but decided on your Y because of its better TCO. Keep up the good work!". Individually it probably won't do much, but if enough people start doing so it'll likely push things in that direction.
Or alternately, see if you can find a way to buy a popular fleet vehicle rather than a consumer vehicle. A growing trend of consumers seeking out fleet vehicles would send a pretty loud message as well.
And yeah, the wealthy hold outsized sway over many manufacturing trends, just as they do over government. Funny how that works, almost like money is power.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 25 2021, @06:09PM (2 children)
It's a nice thought, but as I understand it around 2010 BMW was posting profit margins up to 50% better than their near competitors (like: 14% for BMW, 10% for Mercedes, 9% for Audi or whatever...) and the competitors looked into some of the things contributing to that - low cost major components made of plastic instead of metal castings was a big one they found and copied.
If cars were a 10 year lease and then recycle, instead of a purchase to own and maintain, I could see that. Our 1991/1999 vehicles are cheaper to maintain, even to restore, than to purchase new alternatives - that's not going to be the case with these highly integrated systems with so many components designed to disintegrate after 10 years.
I do have my eye out for a rust free Checker Cab, or maybe a 1970 Rolls Royce - both would make awesome EV conversion targets when the batteries get a bit cheaper.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday February 25 2021, @08:29PM (1 child)
>I do have my eye out for a rust free Checker Cab, or maybe a 1970 Rolls Royce
Sadly those probably won't send a message - you've got to buy a NEW fleet vehicle to touch the manufacturer's bottom line, manufacturers are unlikely to know or care what's happening in the used market.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 25 2021, @09:36PM
Oh, I think they know quite a bit, but probably care not at all.
It's like politics - you can make all the noise you want about saving the planet, fixing the economy, abolishing poverty, etc. but when 50% or more of the voters care about other things, all your noise is basically ignored.
In the case of new car sales, it's not about satisfying the most people, it's about making the most profit - and that includes lock-in for dealer service centers.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 26 2021, @01:58AM
One word - Honda. They can build a 4 banger that's small enough for one person to pull without having to use any lifts, not even to grab the block out.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Wednesday February 24 2021, @02:32PM (13 children)
There are probably some fairly obvious reasons such as range and volume require different vehicles. While small electric delivery vehicles works fine in urban areas it might not do very well out in the sticks or in areas that have less then hospitable weather conditions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @02:58PM (4 children)
Ors goat paths instead of roads.
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Wednesday February 24 2021, @05:54PM (3 children)
Don't worry. The USPS here won't even drive all the way up the hill. That's right. I live one block from delivery, but I have to rent a PO Box because they won't come up here. Our road is crap, but it's no more crappy than the road further down. They're just too cheap to get another jeep, and they like their hostage revenue stream from PO box rental.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 25 2021, @01:09AM (2 children)
They aren't supposed to charge you for a P.O. Box if they refuse to deliver to your house. Report them to the Office of the Inspector General for fraud. They take things like that very seriously. Even better if you get some neighbors to do it at the same time. My neighbor got a full refund and had his carrier apologize to him in person before getting assigned to a different route for refusing to deliver like that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by istartedi on Thursday February 25 2021, @05:40AM (1 child)
Thanks for sending me down that rabbit-hole. It seems that the free "group E PO Box", as they cryptically call it, is only the smallest box available. Problem? More frequent trips to the PO, but more importantly since I've already got the box the number may change. So? Oh boy, I can't begin to tell you what a giant PiTA it is to get some companies to *finally* accept that a PO Box is the only acceptable form of delivery. They always want a street address, and if you give them both they sometimes PURGE the PO box from their DB! So it's not just the PO, it's all the stupid companies that don't understand how things are in the fringe areas, or don't care. I've had health insurance and even taxes messed up because of this! Praise be to the credit union though--they forgave a past-due credit card balance because apparently, they've seen this shit before. Oh, believe you me I've wanted to sue the PO for not linking my address to my box--they'll bounce the mail if it's sent to the address, even though they must surely know my physical address is linked to the box. tl;dr, not going through any more hassle than I have to now, not getting the smaller box. This is not the hill I'm gonna die on.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 25 2021, @06:11AM
They are supposed to give you a free option, which you said they aren't. You also said that they refuse to deliver mail to your house. From the sound of it, you aren't the only one in your area they are doing it to either. The OIG will probably make them start delivering to all of you and then you don't have any problem anymore. Regardless, if it isn't the hill you are willing to die on, at least pass the info onto your neighbors in case they want the free PO box and refund of old fees paid or to file the complaint themselves with the OIG.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 24 2021, @05:31PM (7 children)
Given that a hybrid has a smaller ICE than an ICE-only, I pity the drivers who will need to go in the sticks or bad weather with an underpowered vehicle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by bussdriver on Wednesday February 24 2021, @08:48PM (6 children)
Electric is more powerful than ICE; it's the battery that holds it back. I wouldn't expect them to pick a well designed vehicle because of risks of new and politics.
The crumple zone in the front is for a drop-in ICE generator. Generation is a far better use for ICE than turning wheels which wastes 15% engine to wheel. It could be undersized by at least 15% and do just fine when the electric and battery are sized properly.
It could be made of aluminum to keep them lasting as long as possible. I don't see the point of that glass windshield; looks expensive and custom. Should be whatever is cheapest to make and be durable; they don't go driving high speeds over great distances for MOST ... they should have a couple variations, long distance, rural, and urban.
They should have the steering be movable so the driver only needs it when driving in traffic but it self drives between mailboxes; as an add-on feature later but you'd think they could get it to slowly drive 100ft between mailboxes while boxes/bins are fetched. Also a fuzzy logic system could minimize energy use vs time with the stop/go situation... some big custom super capacitor would be well suited to this purpose which would extend battery life; it's not likely they wouldn't have the space for such a big item on the roof.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday February 24 2021, @11:28PM (1 child)
> It could be undersized by at least 15% and do just fine
Far smaller than that - the engine in an ICE vehicle is scaled for the maximum power it needs to be able to deliver when accelerating. But your engine is only really working that hard for a tiny percentage of the time, the average power it puts out is far lower. And with a battery buffer a generator only has to provide the average power needed.
Also, nobody's putting anything on the roof - you want your center of gravity as low as possible for stability.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 25 2021, @04:15AM
Compute the average power when driving in the stick on unpaved roads and/or with front wind in gusts.
See if the ICE is able to deliver it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 25 2021, @04:07AM (3 children)
Let me put the things back in the context
When the battery is empty, all you have is an ICE.
Now, what is the purpose of having an ICE in a hybrid? To recharge the battery (more efficiently, because it runs at optimal RPM). And everything averages nice when driving into the city, when you naturally stop at traffic lights.
But, if you do need to recharge the battery while in the sticks and/or bad weather (that is, when you don't need to stop at traffic lights), it means you are likely to run out of it. In other words, hybrids are lousy for long no-stop trips. In these conditions, all you have is an underpowered (for the vehicle) ICE. So, you have two strategies:
- either you continue to drive with the ICE as the only source of power
- or you stop and let the ICE recharge the battery.
Of course you can switch between the two, but I have a hunch which one will be used them most when in the stick/bad weather and you're a postal worker that has his income dependent on the number of deliveries/day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday February 25 2021, @04:23PM (2 children)
You think driving in the sticks really consumes far more power than driving at highway speeds? (Highways pretty much being the reason for range-extended hybrids) Yeah, you need more torque if you're climbing hills or slogging offroad, but you're also going slower, and twice the torque at a half the speed is still the same amount of power. Energy per mile is no doubt much higher, but I'm not so sure about energy per minute.
That said, I would really love to see a "driving mode" switch on the dash of plug-in series hybrids, particularly any that have a really borderline-underpowered ICE generator. Because a charging computer may be clever, but it can't predict the future. Maybe call the modes:
"Normal" or "Neighborhood"
- wait until the battery is mostly drained before firing up the ICE for range extension as needed, with the idea that you'll soon be plugging in to actually recharge the battery.
"Workhorse" or "Road Trip"
- try to keep the battery mostly charged. If you're consistently drawing power faster than the ICE can provide, this will maximize the run time, otherwise it still drains the fast-"charging" fuel tank before the battery. Basically it becomes an ICE vehicle with a battery-boosted electric transmission, and battery backup if you run out of gas.
Maybe "Road Trip" would actually be better with a different optimization profile than "Workhorse". Maybe there's other modes that would make sense as well - but at the very least a toggle between mostly-BEV and mostly-ICE seems like it would dramatically improve the versatility of series-hybrids.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 26 2021, @02:18AM (1 child)
Pretty sure there is a patent on tying the route on the in-car GPS (presumably the route you are on) to what state-of-charge to maintain in a hybrid. If there is a big downgrade ahead, it will deplete the hybrid battery in advance, so that the battery can absorb some regen/charge on the way downhill. And etc for other possible modes.
Not sure but maybe Toyota has this in some Prius models?
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday February 26 2021, @03:02AM
That's clever, but it's still only a tactical adjustment for the immediate future. I'm thinking more having some longer-term strategic input, when you know that the next hours or days of travel are going to look really different than your usual usage patterns.
You could do a whole lot with GPS, e.g. for road trip mode. But there's lots of details that can really change the optimal strategy. You arrive at a town - are you spending days here, or is this just an afternoon of sightseeing? Will you have a charger waiting for you at the hotel? Are you exploring back roads across the country in the right general direction with (hopefully) no use for a GPS?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 24 2021, @03:03PM (7 children)
Rural carriers all seem to drive personal vehicles. They favor small pickups, small sedans, or small SUVs. Anything with good fuel mileage, and known to be low maintenance.
165,000 vehicles over the next ten years? So, 16,000 plus or minus per year. Nope, these things aren't coming out to "flyover country". 16,000 vehicles will be gobbled up by the dozen largest cities, and largely go unnoticed.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday February 24 2021, @03:22PM (4 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @04:06PM (3 children)
One word: Tr**p.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Tork on Wednesday February 24 2021, @04:07PM (2 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 24 2021, @04:43PM (1 child)
You are suggesting that the USPS has a ban on transporting troops? I'll have to use UPS or Fedex to have troops delivered?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday February 24 2021, @04:47PM
No no no... the USPS isn't anti-troop, it's just Sundays they won't go!
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @04:54PM
In the urban areas here they use something that looks like little golf-cars but they have some flimsy walls and there is room in the back for the mail. As soon as you come outside the cities or city-centers it's more like station wagons, vans or lorries. Then there are normal trucks that deliver from postal facilities to other facilities or to large clients that have big pickups or deliveries.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday February 24 2021, @05:51PM
They should stop driving their personal vehicles and demand to drive their neighbors' vehicles.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @03:14PM
> "The multi-billion dollar USPS modernization looks like...a duck"
Yes but does it walk like a duck? [gfycat.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @05:22PM (1 child)
So government owned, government operated vehicles rolling up and down every street in America every day with 360 degree cameras mounted to them.
Is there any reason to believe they're not tied to a cloud server and stored indefinitely?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @07:12PM
May be too much data to store. Better to process them first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @06:17PM
LEA decoys must have cleavage to display.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @06:31PM
I wonder how that low hood tall windshield design is going to pass the US standards for vehicle/pedestrian crashes. Or is the USPS exempt? Our feds don't like to make themselves susceptible to their own laws.
(Score: 4, Informative) by ElizabethGreene on Wednesday February 24 2021, @07:37PM
The current mail trucks have the almost-50-year-old Iron Duke engine [wikipedia.org] in them and are still rocking a 2-barrel carb.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 24 2021, @09:29PM (1 child)
B'gosh!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 25 2021, @01:28AM
> B'gosh!
Oshkosh B'gosh used to make great jeans--Union made in USA, I could mail order them and they were really comfy. Then they switched to made in Mexico and the fit was inconsistent. Finally, that catalog switched to all kids clothes and I had to find a new source...