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posted by martyb on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:05AM   Printer-friendly
from the indeterminate dept.

EE|Times has a great article/interview about mode confusion, with semi-autonomous driving (safety?) features. These are showing up in more and more new cars, for one example, automatic lane keeping. Sometimes the system is working, other times not and, according to the article the distinction is frequently not at all obvious to the driver.

'Mode Confusion' Vexes Drivers, Carmakers:

NHTSA vs. NTSB
Curiously, regulators are more worried about the safety issues of fully autonomous vehicles than the more immediate concerns of safety for vehicles operating in partial autonomy.

The advanced notice of proposed rule making (ANPRM) recently issued by NHTSA seeks input from the public, as the agency plans to develop a framework for safety in Automated Driving Systems (ADS) — fully autonomous vehicles.

Last week, NTSB, responding to ANPRM, made it abundantly clear that NTHSA should be first "incorporating into the safety framework the lessons learned from NTSB crash investigations." By "lessons learned," NTSB means their investigations of crashes that involved vehicles operating in partial automated mode.

Describing driver/operator attention as "an integral component of lower level automation systems," NTSB stressed that "a driver monitoring system must be able to assess whether and to what degree the driver is performing the role of automation supervisor."

Further down, there is an interview with an ex-F-18 pilot who tells of a fellow pilot who experienced mode confusion first hand:

Cummings: I saw this firsthand when one of my peers was returning from a live weapons area to the aircraft carrier, and he forgot to save his weapons.

Right before he got back, his commanding officer in the other plane decided that they would do a fun one-v.-one, which is like a dogfight. My friend, I like to call him Spider (not his real call sign), got the jump on the commanding officer and got in position to fire. There's this really compelling shoot queue. So, the system will scream at you to shoot. But you needed to make sure the letters "SIM" were beneath, to show you were in simulated mode. Right? But he didn't double-check. He thought, in his mind, he was in simulated mode. And the font [for SIM] was so small.

And when you're doing a dogfight, it's really rough. He pulled the trigger, thinking he was in stimulated mode. The missile went off the rail.

And whenever you do that in an F-18, the plane turns its cameras on to tattle on you later.

You could actually see the missile going after the commanding officer. Right before it hit him and killed him, it just fell beneath the airplane.


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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by istartedi on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:23AM (19 children)

    by istartedi (123) on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:23AM (#1117857) Journal

    I want MCAS in my car. /sarcasm.

    Joking aside, I'm pretty happy with the cruise control in my current vehicle. You can tell it's only capable of managing throttle and gear but not brakes, because if it's engaged downhill it downshifts and over-revs the engine in a vain attempt to maintain speed. It automatically disengages when you use the brakes.

    I've never experienced more automation than that, and I'm not hankering for it. Long trips without CC are hard for me to imagine though.

    That makes my Dad's stories all the better. He told me that back in the day when there were no speed limits out west, he'd tool along at 100 mph in his Ford Custom, with a cigar. No seatbelts of course. It was a whole different era, but mad respect now for guys from that era doing it with their foot on the gas the whole time. I think he said he'd have driven the Ford faster, but it vibrated too much. I think it was a crappy car, and yes there's a lot of survivorship bias here. I'm glad he didn't kill himself so I exist.

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    • (Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:02AM (4 children)

      by fakefuck39 (6620) on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:02AM (#1117872)

      I don't think it's your cruise control doing it. I believe from my anecdote that it's a system that detects you're going downhill for an extended time. I guess the way for you to test would be to go downhill with cruise control off, maintaining a constant speed by just laying off the gas more and more, and see if the auto transmission downshifts. In a van rental I had, which had no cruise control, it did.

      When going down, instead of over a hill, brakes are not a good way to go. Applying your brakes for ten minutes is not what you're supposed to do. Instead of setting your brakes on fire, you're supposed to put in in lower gear, even on an automatic tranny. When the van I was driving noticed me laying off the gas once I was just over a hill, maintaining a constant speed, and then letting off the gas completely, it downshifted to maintain that speed, w/o me pressing the brake.

      here's a thing some rando wrote where he noticed this feature as well:
      https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/going-downhill-with-automatic-and-the-auto-downshifting.7855897/ [vwvortex.com]

      as far as I'm aware, cruise control will actually only downshift to speed up, not slow down - when going Uphill for example. In cars without the downhill detection, going downhill on cruise will in fact speed up past your set speed if it's steep enough, and it will never downshift to slow down. Which makes sense - the car can already control the brakes via ABS, so it's not some weird limitation that it has to downshift to slow down. It's doing it so your wheels don't light on fire or are left w/o brakes.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:35PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:35PM (#1117924)

        What, no Jacob’s-brake*? You need a bigger vehicle. :-)

        * An engine retarder. Illegal to use in many areas because they are LOUD.

      • (Score: 2) by istartedi on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:20PM (2 children)

        by istartedi (123) on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:20PM (#1118055) Journal

        Don't worry. I know better than to burn my brakes, and I use D3,2,1 when appropriate.

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        • (Score: 2) by fakefuck39 on Saturday February 27 2021, @11:47PM (1 child)

          by fakefuck39 (6620) on Saturday February 27 2021, @11:47PM (#1118078)

          have you noticed sometimes the car refuses to downshift and puts it in neutral instead, sending you on a downhill rocket in the middle of a turn? then you tap the gas a little and it finally does it? I've driven several cars like that. which is why i always have and still prefer stick.

          • (Score: 2) by istartedi on Sunday February 28 2021, @12:40AM

            by istartedi (123) on Sunday February 28 2021, @12:40AM (#1118087) Journal

            No, that's never happened. It's a Honda. If it's in high gear on the down-hill and picking up too much speed, I can "stab" the brake and it will downshift. Then if it's getting too much engine braking and the car is slow, I can add just a bit of throttle and it will up-shift again. It's almost like having a "semi-automatic" transmission controlled by the brake and throttle.

            I'm given to understand that earlier Japanese automatics were not very good. This one had a problem with a shaft seal in the first year, which was replaced under warranty. After that, no problems at all and I'm close to 200k miles.

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    • (Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:25AM (8 children)

      by driverless (4770) on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:25AM (#1117891)

      He pulled the trigger, thinking he was in stimulated mode. The missile went off the rail. You could actually see the missile going after the commanding officer. Right before it hit him and killed him, it just fell beneath the airplane.

      Russian missile would not have missed commanding officer.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday February 27 2021, @12:57PM (5 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 27 2021, @12:57PM (#1117914) Journal

        Right before it hit him and killed him

        This missile didn't miss.

        • (Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:24PM (4 children)

          by driverless (4770) on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:24PM (#1117922)

          Right before it hit him and killed him

          This missile didn't miss.

          Only because you've cut off the second half of the sentence, which says that it missed.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday February 27 2021, @02:26PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 27 2021, @02:26PM (#1117931) Journal
            Oh, I thought that meant where it hit the plane.

            As to the assertion that Russian missiles wouldn't miss, is that supposed to be relevant to this thread somehow?
          • (Score: 4, Touché) by mhajicek on Saturday February 27 2021, @04:08PM (1 child)

            by mhajicek (51) on Saturday February 27 2021, @04:08PM (#1117957)

            It's ambiguous. If it missed, they should have written "Right before it would have hit him...". My interpretation of the words as written is that it detonated below the plane, killing him.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:47PM

              by shortscreen (2252) on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:47PM (#1117998) Journal

              I was hoping that "it just fell beneath the airplane" meant the missile had aborted its persuit due to an action of the pilot or some automated friend-or-foe system.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday February 27 2021, @09:14PM

            by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday February 27 2021, @09:14PM (#1118030) Journal

            Right before it hit him and killed him

                    This missile didn't miss.

            Only because you've cut off the second half of the sentence, which says that it missed.

            khallow? Quoting a partial sentence to falsely imply that someone said something they did not say, so that khallow can argue in bad faith? Say it ain't so, Soylent!

      • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday February 28 2021, @12:22AM

        by sjames (2882) on Sunday February 28 2021, @12:22AM (#1118085) Journal

        But you would hear over the radio (in Russian) "try putting me on report for that, fucker!".

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 01 2021, @08:28AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 01 2021, @08:28AM (#1118419)

        Russian missile doesn't have a fail-safe to prevent friendly fire.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @02:43PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @02:43PM (#1117932)

      I'm not personally happy. I basically never use cruise control because it can't handle the brakes as well. On longer car trips, holding the gas pedal down to slightly varying degrees is just not that hard and if you take the foot off the pedal, then you give up the muscle memory of moving quickly from gas to brake if something does happen.

      Adaptive cruise control is pretty much essential if you're going to be driving in traffic these days as it really takes a ton of concentration to pay attention to the car that's in front of you. The only time I've been in a traffic accident, it was because we were in stop and go traffic and the guy behind me rear ended me. With adaptive cruise control on either car, that likely wouldn't have happened.

      • (Score: 1) by pTamok on Sunday February 28 2021, @04:45PM

        by pTamok (3042) on Sunday February 28 2021, @04:45PM (#1118224)

        Adaptive cruise control is pretty much essential if you're going to be driving in traffic these days as it really takes a ton of concentration to pay attention to the car that's in front of you.

        Only if you are TOO CLOSE to the vehicle in front of you. Back off, and leave yourself some thinking and braking distance, and you will find it more relaxing. Off course, in multi-lane traffic, some idiot will cut in in front of you to gain half-a-second, but cultivate the attitude of not letting it bother you - it doesn't slow you down significantly.

    • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday February 27 2021, @05:49PM

      by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 27 2021, @05:49PM (#1117986) Homepage Journal

      I, quite simply, have never turned on cruise control in the 15-odd years I've had it available.

    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:56PM (1 child)

      by Thexalon (636) on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:56PM (#1118002)

      Long trips without CC are hard for me to imagine though.

      I've done it. In my experience, after about 3-4 hours, your right leg will usually hurt a fair amount.

      Adaptive cruise control is the sort of thing that I'd definitely like to have, even though I don't, because it would cut down significantly on the frequency I have to pop out of cruise control to deal with a small slowdown on the highway.

      That said, I've generally assumed that if/when self-driving tech matures to the point where it's far safer than human drivers and universally deployed, the youth will think we were plain nuts for ever getting on the road while driving manually. Even without the risk of drunk driving, there's still the fact that somebody not paying attention on their morning commute could get you killed.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 1) by phantomlord on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:25PM

        by phantomlord (4309) on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:25PM (#1118020)

        I have adaptive cruise control on my car and use it frequently. However, it blends in with driving well enough that sometimes, I'll look down at my speedometer and realize I'm going 5-10mph slower than what I had it set for, then I'll snap out of my lull and pass them. That lull means I'm not paying attention as well as I should have and all of these driver aides, which are frequently a response to people not paying attention because of their phone or whatever, actually encourage us to pay less attention.

        The same goes for my lane sensors lighting LEDs on my mirror to warn me that someone is there - I notice that, in my car without warning lights, I don't look into the mirror as well as I should because the lack of lights trains your brain into a false sense of security.

        I have my lane assist set to rumble the steering wheel instead of pulling me back into my lane, since I've been known to swerve to give bicyclists more room - will the sensors (lane assist uses the rear camera to track lane position and you have the blind spot sensors tracking what's to the side and behind you) mainly scanning my rear pick up a smaller moving object to the front of me or will it guide me back into the lane causing a dangerous situation?

        As far as driving manually going away at some point, what about when I'm cruising along with adaptive cruise control on, only to get an error "Front Senor Blocked. ACC Disabled." and I have to take over again? It happens when enough precipitation builds up in front of the sensor, giving it erratic results (and yes, I'm aware that cruise control isn't as safe in precipitation, but I've been driving long enough and my commute is mild enough, that I use it when I feel it isn't dangerous).

        Maybe some day, the technology will be ready for completely automated driving, but it isn't right now. The technology we have right now actually makes people more complacent and more distracted.

        On a related side note, I really miss driving stick. It helped to make me feel like the car was an extension of me since I had more control over everything.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:48AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @06:48AM (#1117861)

    It is unreasonable to hand over control while in motion. An autonomous system doesn't need to handle all driving conditions, but it needs to be able to safely come to a stop when a troublesome situation is encountered. Mode switching should happen when the car is in park, with the parking brake on, with the engine off, and everything else in the normal state for walking away from the car.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @11:49AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @11:49AM (#1117901)

      First time I experienced a mode switch while moving was in a c.2000 VW Passat. It appeared to have two transmission/throttle maps -- which we soon nicknamed "regular" and "sport". Leaving the house with quite a bit of traffic at rush hour, you needed to accelerate medium hard to mesh with traffic. There were a couple of other turns like this as well, followed by acceleration. This was enough for the system to switch into sport mode, with no message to the driver at all.

      After a mile or so, there was a stop light and a long line. Trying to creep forward as the line began to move was very difficult because a light press on the throttle turned into hard acceleration. After you got moving, it stayed in low gear much longer, so the engine was revved up needlessly when just moving along with 35 mph traffic. More than once we nearly rear-ended the car in front because of the silent mode change.

      Another annoyance was an idle/load control. The worst case seemed to be parking in a lot, foot off the throttle, creeping slowly. When you turn the steering wheel to pull into the slot, the power steering uses a little extra engine power...and the damn idle control raised the idle by 100 or 200 engine rpm. So as you slowly turn into the parking slot, the car accelerates! Nearly had a bunch of fender benders from this behavior.

      We only had that car for a few years, it was wrecked/totaled (someone hit it, nothing to do with the annoying mode change). It wasn't missed.

      • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:33PM

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Saturday February 27 2021, @01:33PM (#1117923) Journal

        Some VWs had a hidden, illegal mode change. You know, one mode to pass the environmental checks on diesel emissions, and another mode for all subsequent use.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:32AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @08:32AM (#1117880)

    Is this like the old urban (and rural) legend about driving in "head mode", until the driver lost control, hit a tree, and the EMT found his passenger choking on something?

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @03:44PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @03:44PM (#1117948)

    Just get rid of it. It only makes driving more expensive and is a distraction. Just let me drive. Oh, that's right, electronic junk is MANDATED by the GOVERNMENT! Are they trying to make driving a *luxury*?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @03:46PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @03:46PM (#1117950)

      ^^ Yes, I know the article is about (semi)automated driving, but I am referring to things like lane keeping, etc.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:31PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 27 2021, @10:31PM (#1118060)

    Just make them learn vim

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:26AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:26AM (#1118104)

      Ah vi. This is how one wears out his escape key.

  • (Score: 2) by chewbacon on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:55AM

    by chewbacon (1032) on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:55AM (#1118113)

    I drive a Subaru with their lane-assist and ACC. My wife has a VW that also has VW's version. The Subaru is camera-driven and the VW is radar with a camera. Both have their quirks, but the Subaru is my favorite. The indicators are straight forward: cruise icon with a car and "set" when you're in adaptive cruise control. Lane assist turned on? You'll see lane lines on each side of your car on the display centered in the cluster. My favorite feature Subaru put in to this is a "beep" when the system acquires a vehicle. My wife's VW doesn't beep, but throws up "Vehicle detected" on the display. So when I'm approaching a vehicle, I want to know if the ACC sees it so I know if I have to intervene. The Subaru goes "beep," and I know I'm good. The VW doesn't say anything, so I have to keep an eye on the indicator, which takes my eyes off the road. Furthermore! The lane assist on the VW is a little more cryptic than the Subaru's obvious lines and little green icon of a car between lines. The VW shows and amber lane when it's enabled. Which, at first, I thought meant it's assisting me. It actually turns green when it's active.

    Quirks between the two: the Subaru thinks it's going to collide with a hanging exhaust cloud in cold weather. ACC in the Subaru will shut off when the sun gets in its eyes. I recently had it thinking it coming almost to a complete stop, then trying to take off again, with a flat-painted utility truck in front of me. The VW brakes way too hard and sometimes when you hit "resume" from a stop, it just sits there. Once when it rolled to a stop behind another vehicle, it suddenly tried to take off again and into the back of the stopped vehicle it was following (radar contact lost???).

    These are great features. They take some of the load off the driver and allow you to direct some of your attention to other things going on around you (traffic, not your phone). They do require attention, familiarity, and discretion. I don't see myself getting a car without them other than my antique truck.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:26PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 28 2021, @03:26PM (#1118197)

    This comes up again and again when dealing with computers, and it comes down to the mental model of state that he operator has not matching the actual state of the system being operated.

    We are used to a physical world, where we can tell the state of things by their physical location etc.

    Computer software is not physical in that sense, and instead the operator has to try to keep track of what the computer is told to do and claims it has done in order to build a mental model of its state.

    for some reason, when we build computer interfaces we focus far too much on the visual.

    But anyone that has driven a car has at some point taken it to the garage because it started to make a noise or vibration that it had not done before. And usually that will lead to the finding of some developing fault.

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