Outgoing CEO says Panasonic must cut Tesla reliance as battery tie-up evolves: FT
Panasonic Corp's outgoing Chief Executive Kazuhiro Tsuga said the company will need to reduce its heavy reliance on Tesla Inc by making batteries more compatible with electric vehicles from other global carmakers, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.
"At some point, we need to graduate from our one-legged approach of relying solely on Tesla," Tsuga, who will step down after nine years as CEO from April 1, told the newspaper in an interview. "We are entering a different phase and we need to keep an eye on supplying manufacturers other than Tesla."
Panasonic Must Reduce Reliance On Tesla, Outgoing CEO Says
Let's recall the Adamas Intelligence report, which indicated that about 90% of Panasonic's batteries deployed in passenger xEVs in 2020 went to Tesla.
[...] One of the most interesting comments from the interview with Kazuhiro Tsuga is that "Currently it is difficult to sell [those batteries] unless there is a company that is able to handle our cylindrical batteries with Tesla specifications". Other major manufacturers are usually not using the cylindrical battery cell format, but rather pouch or prismatic. It appears that they also prefer easier to use cells.
Meanwhile, Tesla is reducing its reliance on Panasonic, having started development of its own cells for in-house production, and partnering with LG:
LG Energy Solution aims to build advanced battery cells for Tesla Inc electric vehicles in 2023 and is considering potential production sites in the United States and Europe, two people familiar with the matter told Reuters. Tesla has not yet agreed to a deal that would expand LG's role in its supply chain beyond China, one of the sources said.
See also: Tesla strikes new Panasonic battery deal as sales and shares soar
Tesla and LG in talks to produce 4680 battery cell at new factory
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 15 2021, @04:58PM (11 children)
What a concept, standards. The industry should adopt some. They already have some in older formats, such as AAA, D, C, AA, 18650, and so on. Maybe we need three or four different standards, or maybe we need one, to which all EV manufacturers conform.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 15 2021, @05:32PM
LOL... now that Apple's getting involved in electric cars you won't even have one standard per company. Expect your iCar's Spring 2022 iBattery to be obsoleted by the Fall 2022 iBattery with rounder corners.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by looorg on Monday March 15 2021, @05:35PM
I don't think it's so much about standards then about normal risk management. They don't want to tie their entire, or very large segment of their, business to the rise and fall of one client. After all if said client decides that they don't need you anymore then you are in for a rude awakening. Not to mention in this case of the old automakers decides to or finally manage to turn their slow business models around they could probably just blow Tesla out of the water.
Standards would, or could, be nice. But I doubt that is what it's all about. The only reason they want standards now is so they can sell the same product to many customers instead of making more or less unique components to each of them.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by takyon on Monday March 15 2021, @05:35PM (3 children)
Tesla made the case for their new battery format [theverge.com] at their "Battery Day" event last year:
Note: The 5x energy capacity is in part due to the much larger volume, not an incredible energy density advancement.
You don't necessarily need to stick to an industry standard when the largest customer is buying millions of the things. Or if the company making them IS the customer.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 15 2021, @05:55PM (2 children)
But, is the new format interchangeable with *anything*?
The typical farmer/rancher/small business decides to go electric. They have a multitude of electrically powered equipment. Is anything at all interchangeable with other equipment and/or vehicles? Stuff breaks down, after all, and people forget to recharge things. It would be nice if a person could remove the batteries from maybe a forklift to power a small tractor or an automobile, or whatever.
If I were a small business owner, I would be looking hard for that kind of interchangeability. I would want all of my equipment to have a common charging station, common batteries, and common handling techniques. That will probably never be possible, but the closer you can get to it, the less money you need spend on all of it.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 15 2021, @08:05PM
The "battery" is collection of cells. Panasonic and Tesla are talking about the "cells" not the "batteries". The cells can be put together in any number of completely incompatible non-standard battery form factors. Likewise any number of completely incompatible non-standard cells could be put together into a standard battery form factor. At the level being discussed here, the only interest in interchangeable is on the factory floor.
As a small business owner you'll be looking hard at battery interchangeability and it won't matter who manufactures the cells, or what format the cells take. The only difference to you is one manufacturer's battery will be able to store more or less energy than a competitor's. And of course every manufacturer will create a non-standard incompatible format. At least until the battery clone producers get on board and start under cutting them on a popular format.
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Tuesday March 16 2021, @12:01PM
It's cutting edge and an advancement of the tech. If it succeeds, it will become the standard.
Also, interchangeability and standards always come at a price. It might be actual $$$ cost, size, efficiency, or something else. There is always a price to pay for it. Not saying you do not realize that, it's just that so many people do not. Sometimes it just isn't worth it, depending on your needs.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 15 2021, @06:09PM (3 children)
Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue of all vehicles had, for example, 12 volt batteries? In a limited number of sizes, that fit into a large number of vehicles models?
Don't even get me started on internal combustion engines. They should be mandated to have only a prime number of cylinders. None of this twelve cylinder nonsense.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 15 2021, @06:35PM
Did you miss your sarcasm tags, or am I missing something? The automotive industry already has what you describe. No matter what car or light truck you drive, you can go to most any auto parts store including WalMart, and find a replacement. More, you can replace your battery with a not-quite exact match. As for heavy trucks, there is far less variance between them than automobiles.
As for the engines - mehhh. It would be nice if you could replace a GM engine with a Ford or Nissan engine without re-engineering the mounts, and the drivetrain couplings. Nice, but not essential. If I really need an engine, they are available at the wrecking yard without paying the manufacturer's replacement fees.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 15 2021, @07:19PM (1 child)
My '49 Plymouth has a 6 volt system, with a Positive ground. And left-hand threaded lug bolts on the driver's side wheels.
(Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Tuesday March 16 2021, @12:02PM
My '56 Dodge used to have that until a knucklehead mechanic wrung them all off.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 16 2021, @12:34AM
Suppliers always want standards, but it isn't happening in many areas.
For one huge example, the tire companies would love to have a half dozen different sizes of tires to cover normal cars and light trucks/SUVs. Based on the load ranges for these vehicles that should be enough. Then there could be another dozen or so sizes for high performance cars (wide!) and for serious off road trucks (tall!)
Instead there are hundreds of tire sizes. Battery cells (which are aren't part of the car styling) might eventually settle out to a half dozen styles (cylinder, pouch) and sizes?
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 15 2021, @05:35PM
>> Peter Rawlinson has many goals for the Lucid Air. One is that it be hailed as the world's best electric car. "Nobody believes me, but we're about to take it to another level," he says.
Since Lucid Air is about to crush Tesla, Panasonic would do well to develop them as a client.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by anubi on Monday March 15 2021, @11:43PM (5 children)
Its a damn good design.
Its a primary selling point for me. Almost everything i have uses them. Flashlights, tools, radios, if it does not take or have 18650, I have little use for it. Alkaline is shit. It leaks and destroys its host. Useless in my book. Not trustable to deliver.
Manufacturers, please adopt the 18650. Dont plan on selling individual replacement cells. We will get them from "spent" power tool packs. If I ever throw away an 18650 cell, rest assured that that cell can no longer function to even power a flashlight... My experience is that rarely happens... Even in ten year time frames.
I even nixed a Dell in favor of HP because the HP used 18650, and I know there is still a lot of life in even a spent battery pack. Same with Ryobi power tools. If it runs on 18650, its a huge selling point... If it runs on something else, its about as useless as entertainment media on nonstandard formats. Trash even before it left the factory. Even if you gave it to me, you will find it back in the trash. Unused.
Its been two decades since i hsve bought conventional batteries. Even if I get them included in a purchase of something else, I won't install them. Leak risk. It won't be there when I need it.
Everready, please keep making those AA and AAA lithium cells. Those are the only non-18650 cells I will still buy. And only because the manufacturer of the trinket does not offer an 18650 option. I simply won't puu anything else in my stuff. Everyone else's stuff leaks and ruins my stuff. And ruins my stuff,
Priced a precision high speed isolated analog differential probe set lately? I need this kinda stuff to help me find problems in robotic stuff.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 16 2021, @03:49AM (3 children)
> Everready, please keep making those AA and AAA lithium cells
How do they make lithium cells that put out ~1.5 volts? I thought all lithium chemistries resulted in ~3V cells.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by anubi on Tuesday March 16 2021, @04:29AM
I thought that too... But they put out just a tad over 1.5 volts. They are light, and I still have some in service ( Volt-ohmmeter and remote controller) for 20 years and they are still going. They were colored red and gold back then.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 16 2021, @09:19AM (1 child)
Built in voltage regulator.
Have a device that is voltage sensitive and won't work with NiCad or NiMH batteries. Bought some Lipo and haven't had any issues. Steady 1.5v until they are out of power.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Muad'Dave on Tuesday March 16 2021, @12:15PM
1.5V Lithium primary batteries use Lithium iron disulphide [energizer.com] chemistry which has a terminal voltage of around 1.5V under load.
3.7V Lithium secondary (rechargeable) batteries use the familiar Li-ion/Li-poly/Li-FePO4 chemistries [wikipedia.org].
1.5V Lithium secondary batteries do indeed have electronics in them, and sometimes have funky dual anodes and require special chargers [reactual.com].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 17 2021, @10:47PM
I totally agree and do the same, except I use the Nickle Metal Hydride AA and AAA's. The "pre-charged" versions which can hold a charge for years. Kodak's are 18yo, Sanyos 10-16yo, Toshiba's about 8yo. I don't think I've lost a single cell. Built like tanks. The Kodaks are getting a bit weaker and 6-9month charge hold, but still work in clocks, mice, keyboards, etc.
I wish I could find more devices with 18650's though. I've even modified stuff to use that format, but """""time""""" intensive.