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posted by martyb on Monday March 22 2021, @05:28PM   Printer-friendly

Legal questions linger as governments and companies keep pushing into space:

The Perseverance rover's landing on Mars is still fresh in people's memories, privately owned companies are ferrying people and supplies into orbit, and NASA continues to work on "the most powerful rocket" it has ever built. But as world governments and private enterprises continue to eye the skies for opportunities, a SXSW panel called "Who on Earth should govern Space" makes clear that the laws dealing with space aren't evolving as fast as the technology that gets us there.

"People like to think of space as the Wild Wild West — nothing out there, there's open frontier, we can do whatever we want," said Michelle Hanlon, president of For All Moonkind, a non-profit devoted to preserving mankind's cultural heritage in space. "Unfortunately or fortunately, that's not true at all."

Hanlon was referring to the Outer Space Treaty, which was developed in 1966 and ratified by over 60 countries in early 1967. Considering the treaty was put into effect a full two years before mankind landed on the moon, it's little surprise that the document is heavy on broad principles, but light on specifics. Among its greatest hits: outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all states; states should avoid harmful contamination of space; celestial bodies shall only be used for peaceful purposes; and, perhaps most importantly, the assertion that outer space isn't subject to claims of sovereignty by Earth-bound governments.

[...] There have been efforts to more fully codify a set of rules to govern the way we approach space, including most recently the Artemis Accords signed by the United States, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, Luxembourg, Italy, Ukraine, the United Kingdom and the United Arab Emirates in 2020. Ten countries are a start, but a slew of significant space-faring states — including China, India and Russia — have not bought into the largely US-brokered accord. It's hard to say exactly what (if anything) it will take for the international community to agree to a comprehensive set of guidelines for the use of outer space. But one thing is clear: With the technology to get us and keep us in space growing more advanced by the day, these are issues we can't afford to keep punting.


Original Submission

Related Stories

Mexico Joins U.S.-Led Artemis Accords for Lunar Exploration 13 comments

Mexico joins Artemis Accords

The government of Mexico announced Dec. 9 that it is signing the U.S.-led Artemis Accords outlining best practices for space exploration.

Marcelo Ebrard Casaubon, Mexico's secretary of foreign relations, announced that Mexico would become the fourteenth country to sign the Artemis Accords, a document addressing various issues regarding safe and sustainable space exploration, many of which are directly tied to the Outer Space Treaty and other international accords.

In a statement, Ebrard said Mexico looked forward to participating in NASA's Artemis program of lunar exploration, but did not disclose details regarding the role he thought the country would play in the effort. He said that, during the Apollo program a half century ago, "we were spectators, now we are going to be participants. It is a great step for Mexico."

[...] NASA announced the Artemis Accords in October 2020 with an initial group of eight signatories. Five others later joined before Mexico, most recently Poland [on] Oct. 26. The countries who have signed include both traditional partners of the United States in space, such as Canada, Japan and several European nations, as well as emerging space nations like Brazil, South Korea and the United Arab Emirates.

Previously: NASA Wants Partner Nations to Agree to "Artemis Accords" for Lunar Exploration
Could Corporations Control Territory in Space? Under New US Rules, It Might Be Possible
Legal Questions Linger as Governments and Companies Keep Pushing Into Space


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @05:43PM (23 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @05:43PM (#1127571) Journal

    So how can we agree about the moon or Mars, let alone agriculture rights on Jupiter.

    It seems like it could be a might-makes-right situation? But with ramifications that escalate hostilities back on Earth serving to drive humans to extinction leaving our robots to duke it out for themselves.

    --
    Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
    • (Score: 2) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Monday March 22 2021, @05:47PM (3 children)

      by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Monday March 22 2021, @05:47PM (#1127574)

      So how can we agree about the moon or Mars, let alone agriculture rights on Jupiter.

      Tell you what: I'll trade you my agricultural rights on Jupiter for any of your right to do anything on the Moon or on Mars. Limited time offer my friend: don't miss the opportunity!

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @09:06PM (1 child)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @09:06PM (#1127682) Journal

        Jupiter has a lot more surface area.

        --
        Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:49AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:49AM (#1128175)
        Simple answer - whoever can defend it owns it. In space, possession is 100% of the law. Same as on Earth.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Freeman on Monday March 22 2021, @05:50PM (17 children)

      by Freeman (732) on Monday March 22 2021, @05:50PM (#1127577) Journal

      Who got the rights to America? The first power that got there, that could hold onto it. Spain got some, but eventually couldn't hold onto it. France did the same. Even the super power of England, eventually couldn't hold onto it.

      Eventually, Mars may belong to the people of Mars. Probably not the Moon, because it likely doesn't have enough self-sustainability. Mars might, but even that is a giant question mark, with some asterisks. Still, it's always been, whomever has the ability and power to make it so, then it shall be so. Right now, it's more about, is it doable, economic, etc.

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @05:52PM (7 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @05:52PM (#1127579) Journal

        Who got the rights to America?

        There were people already here.

        I hope we remember that this time as we move out to the moon and Mars.

        --
        Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @08:17PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @08:17PM (#1127654)

          So what? It wasn't just the not-so-indigenous Mongoloids that were here before "modern" Europeans arrived. Whites had been navigating by boat before the Mongoloids left/got pushed out of Asia and they were likely murdered/bred out by the Mongoloids. Where's the pretentious wailing for their indigenous rights?

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Monday March 22 2021, @09:58PM (5 children)

          by Freeman (732) on Monday March 22 2021, @09:58PM (#1127703) Journal

          Quite true and the might makes right motto was well applied. I would be highly surprised, if we found direct evidence of life existing on Mars or the Moon. Some radio-carbon dated, what looks like a random X thing, isn't going to cut it. Some, well, if there was life here, there might have been some sort of bacterial presence as shown via these "technical voodoo" mumbojumbo. In the event there was life there, there's no reason there shouldn't be some sort of actual evidence. Sure, we're on a tropical paradise of a space rock and not all life would necessarily look like what we would think. There would be some evidence, by our definition of life.

          Now, I'm definitely not "main stream" science or even main stream christian science, necessarily. Still, God didn't say, and let there be a Martian Civilization or let there be all manner of green things or anything growing on Mars. I would be surprised, if we found any evidence of life in our Solar System, other than right here on Earth. Pretty soon there will be evidence of alien life and that will be Satan masquerading as Christ.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by aristarchus on Monday March 22 2021, @10:49PM

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday March 22 2021, @10:49PM (#1127732) Journal

            Oh, dear!

            Pretty soon there will be evidence of alien life and that will be Satan masquerading as Christ.

            Are you sure? Mightent it be Christ, masquerading as Satan? Of course, now we know that Lucifer is actually the same as Hesperus, both are the planet Venus. So are you saying there is/was life on Venus?

            Seriously, I have known Christians since they first started up, and these modern QAnon Evangelicals are quite strange. Weirder than the Pricillianists!

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:11AM (2 children)

            by hendrikboom (1125) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:11AM (#1127766) Homepage Journal

            I would be surprised, if we found any evidence of life in our Solar System, other than right here on Earth. Pretty soon there will be evidence of alien life and that will be Satan masquerading as Christ.

            Read "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish.

            • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:14PM (1 child)

              by Freeman (732) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:14PM (#1127965) Journal

              That's an interesting story. Not sure what you're getting at there, though.

              --
              Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
              • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday March 24 2021, @11:48AM

                by hendrikboom (1125) on Wednesday March 24 2021, @11:48AM (#1128299) Homepage Journal

                Going into more detail in a public forum would be a spoiler for those not familiar with it.

          • (Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:44PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:44PM (#1127925) Journal

            There are many apparent answers to The Fermi Paradox. Genesis 1 could be one of them.

            Genesis 2 also explains some things. [soylentnews.org]

            God told Adam that He was going to make Adam a companion and that it would be a woman.

            God: "This pretty lady will gather food for you, she will cook for you, and when you discover clothing, she will wash it for you. She will always agree with every decision you make and she will not nag you, and will always be the first to admit she was wrong when you've had a disagreement. She will praise you! She will bear your children. and never ask you to get up in the middle of the night to take care of them. She will never have a headache and will freely give you love and passion whenever you need it."

            Adam: "What will a woman like this cost?"

            God: "An arm and a leg."

            Adam: "What can I get for a rib?"

            --
            Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:38PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:38PM (#1127721)

        I was going to say, Iroquois? But if this is how conservatives conceive of the world order, no wonder they are so afraid.

        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:02PM

          by Freeman (732) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:02PM (#1127956) Journal

          It's history, not how I would wish things had happened. Even, if I wished things could have been different. In the event they were, I likely wouldn't exist. Throughout history, one thing can be certain, if you don't have enough power to protect yourself, you will be destroyed. Why do think a place like North Korea wanted Nuclear Weapons? It's all about the power.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @04:38PM (3 children)

          by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @04:38PM (#1128007)

          It's not just conservatives - it's an unfortunate truth that has followed mankind back as far as we can track.

          Go ahead - name one place on Earth where the powerful *didn't* conquer and pillage their weaker neighbors when conquest was a cheaper way to get their resources than trade. We did it in the past, and we're still doing it now, or do you imagine our ongoing military presence in the Middle East has something to do with defending freedom? Or how about the Banana Republics, where US military power was leveraged to assure the profits of American banana-growing corporations?

          We tend to use puppet governments these days rather than open conquest, but the end result is very much the same.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:30AM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:30AM (#1128162) Journal
            Antartica - at least by humans.
            • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:34AM (1 child)

              by Immerman (3985) on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:34AM (#1128201)

              Touche'. Though Antarctica is kind of a special case since it has few resources worth the cost of exploiting in the harsh environment. Even with nobody to steal the resources from, it wasn't worth the effort. I seriously doubt the non-exploitation treaties would have been signed if anyone really thought they could make a decent buck otherwise.

              Nothing protects you from theft like having nothing worth stealing.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @06:17AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @06:17AM (#1128251) Journal

                Though Antarctica is kind of a special case since it has few resources worth the cost of exploiting in the harsh environment.

                Nobody has looked that hard. Treaty and the harsh environment nix that.

      • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Tuesday March 23 2021, @05:24AM (2 children)

        by hemocyanin (186) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @05:24AM (#1127800) Journal

        The moon has one advantage -- the high ground. Throwing rocks from that high could be as good as having nukes.

        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:54PM (1 child)

          by Freeman (732) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:54PM (#1127954) Journal

          I guess there could be some sort of MAD logic applied there, but all things considered, they likely won't be able to produce their own air, water, or food. At least not in amounts abundant enough to decide it's okay to destroy the place that could provide them. In fact, it wouldn't take destroying it completely, just disrupted the economics enough and/or production to really screw oneself. Even, if you decided oh, my bad, I won't do that. It won't help, if you have 6 months of air left and the quikcest they can get a ship up to you is 12 months from now, because you destroyed the means to get it there.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Immerman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @04:59PM

            by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @04:59PM (#1128011)

            Air should be no problem - lunar regolith is roughly 40% oxygen by mass, and the magma refinery Sadoway developed for NASA should be quite effective at extracting it, while producing steel, aluminum, magnesium, etc. as byproducts. Oxygen, aka rocket fuel (80% of Starship's propellant by mass), will probably be the most profitable export the moon will have for quite some time. Hydrogen and carbon are likely to be the stumbling blocks for self-sufficiency, as there does not appear to be a lot of convenient sources, at least near the surface. Though really, with efficient recycling that's not much of a problem for self-sufficiency, only for growth.

            Ironically, fossil fuels may end up being the Moon's biggest import from Earth - not for the energy (though they'd no doubt use that too), but as an efficient way to transport carbon and hydrogen. Combine with oxygen and you've got all the water and CO2 your greenhouses could want.

            Then again - there's lots of hydrocarbons floating around in the asteroid belt, which is much closer than Earth in terms of delta-V. Delivery times are a bit long, but that only matters if your supply chain has been disrupted.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @04:13AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @04:13AM (#1128229) Journal
      While we can't agree on Antarctica, we have the Antarctica Treaty [wikipedia.org] which is well honored. The problem with the Outer Space Treaty (and to a similar extent with the Antarctica Treaty system) is that it comes from a time where space activities were enormously expensive. The terms were hard to violate and didn't give one much advantage. So it wasn't much of a loss to accept the terms of the treaty. That no longer holds.

      Another feature of the Outer Space Treaty that is commonly not known is that one can withdraw from it officially by giving everyone else a one year's notice. This isn't a strong foundation for a long term agreement on space.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Monday March 22 2021, @05:44PM (18 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Monday March 22 2021, @05:44PM (#1127572)

    by those with the fewest guns.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @05:47PM (17 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @05:47PM (#1127573) Journal

      But what if your guns are really big? The biggest. The very biggest. Honest. People say our guns are the biggest.

      --
      Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
      • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 22 2021, @05:52PM (16 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Monday March 22 2021, @05:52PM (#1127578) Journal

        'eh, you got a big enough gun, like a Nuclear Weapon, it counts for something. Still, you won't have that much bargaining power, because your only option is the one giant gun. In the event that you are insane enough to threaten to use it a lot, you're more likely to end up dealt with. As opposed to having much power over anything.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 22 2021, @06:03PM (15 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @06:03PM (#1127584) Journal

          Stellar War One will probably be won by whoever can move the larger rocks around. Dropping a fifty gigaton rock down a gravity well will decide a lot of things. If you can figure the precise impact point ahead of time, you win. The question becomes, how many such rocks will it take before Earth begs for terms?

          Once again, I point to the novel and the television series, 'The Expanse'. I don't see any Proto-molecule on the horizon, but for the most part, they've got stuff figured out. That stealth tech may be a little overboard, but it's going to be hard as hell tracking every rock in the solar system!

          --
          “I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @06:08PM (8 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @06:08PM (#1127587) Journal

            I'm only now watching S5 of The Expanse. One thing that occurs to me is that those rocks also work against Mars and the moon. Not just Earth.

            It seems like nobody would have to "win" for the entire human race to lose. Each "side" in this only has to move enough rocks around to wipe out all human civilization. Because "we're" the good guys. (whoever "we" are)

            --
            Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Mojibake Tengu on Monday March 22 2021, @07:47PM (4 children)

              by Mojibake Tengu (8598) on Monday March 22 2021, @07:47PM (#1127642) Journal

              Being a good guy does not solve anything. I am a good guy for me, you are a good guy for you. That itself does not prevent us from killing each other.

              Therefore, something more than just being a good guy is needed for peace. Trust.
              I consider trust a non-renewable resource. Trust is accumulated very slowly.

              And trust is something Americans lack the most of all resources. They do not trust anyone. They are not trusted by everyone. They even don't trust themselves...

              Guess how this ends one day...

              --
              Rust programming language offends both my Intelligence and my Spirit.
              • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @07:56PM

                by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @07:56PM (#1127644) Journal

                JMS, creator of Babylon 5 said: nobody looks in the mirror and sees a monster.

                --
                Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @10:14AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @10:14AM (#1127855)

                I consider trust a non-renewable resource. Trust is accumulated very slowly.

                https://richardfagerlin.com/2015/05/the-big-lie-about-trust-5-reasons-why-trust-is-not-earned/ [richardfagerlin.com]

                There is a saying that Trust is easily given but once it's gone, it's almost impossible to get back.

                So, it's bullshit to say that Trust accumulates very slowly. It's not. Trust is given to you as a gesture of goodwill. But if you abuse this trust, then you will never get it back. At one point I trusted American government to be an ideal, to generally be an advocate for some order in the world. You know, at very least to keep America the 'leader of the free world'. The election of Trump, that's killed the entire idea of American exceptionalism in this regard. And the last election completely destroyed any Trust in US (like, how the fuck Trump was not destroyed in the election but managed to get so many idiots to vote for him?). So whatever, at this point I trust America as much as I trust China.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:45AM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:45AM (#1128204) Journal

                  At one point I trusted American government to be an ideal, to generally be an advocate for some order in the world. You know, at very least to keep America the 'leader of the free world'. The election of Trump, that's killed the entire idea of American exceptionalism in this regard.

                  I take it, you're young? Because there's been a lot over the past half century to undermine that would-be trust. Trump is not unique.

                  like, how the fuck Trump was not destroyed in the election but managed to get so many idiots to vote for him?

                  Look at the alternatives. People were tired of voting for the establishment. Trump also was willing to press the hot button topics, particularly illegal immigration, that other politicians shied away from.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:37AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:37AM (#1128168) Journal

                Therefore, something more than just being a good guy is needed for peace. Consequences.

                FTFY.

            • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 22 2021, @10:02PM (1 child)

              by Freeman (732) on Monday March 22 2021, @10:02PM (#1127704) Journal

              I read the series of books. It was an interesting series. I've been avoiding Amazon for as much of everything that I can. They treat their workers like dirt, squeeze out small businesses, and jack up the prices whenever they can.

              --
              Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:40AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:40AM (#1127759) Journal

                qbittorrent over a VPN can be your friend . . .

                --
                “I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
            • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @05:25PM

              by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @05:25PM (#1128018)

              > One thing that occurs to me is that those rocks also work against Mars and the moon. Not just Earth.

              True, but they'd also work almost as well against asteroid colonies. The Earth is at a massive disadvantage in kinetic warfare because of our 11.2km/s escape velocity - which means any incoming projectile gains (11,200m/s)^2 = 125MJ/kg of kinetic energy before impact - about 30x the energy density of TNT.

              Mars has an escape velocity of 5km/s, so only adds 25MJ/kg. Still 6x the density of TNT, but a much smaller force multiplier.
              And the Moon's escape velocity is only 2.4km/s, so only 5.8MJ/kg, or 1.4x TNT.

              In practice though, offworld colonies are going to be *extremely* vulnerable - all you have to do is break things up a bit and everybody suffocates. Whereas on Earth you can level half a city and the biggest problem is going to be the morale of the survivors and the cost to rebuild infrastructure.

          • (Score: 2) by AnonTechie on Monday March 22 2021, @07:29PM (1 child)

            by AnonTechie (2275) on Monday March 22 2021, @07:29PM (#1127632) Journal

            Reminds me of the novel "FOOTFALL" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

            Footfall [wikipedia.org]

            --
            Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @11:58AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @11:58AM (#1127874)

              that was an awesome story.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday March 22 2021, @10:41PM

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday March 22 2021, @10:41PM (#1127726) Journal

            Runaway has been reading Heinlein, again. Sounds like a Moonie!

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:13AM (2 children)

            by hendrikboom (1125) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:13AM (#1127767) Homepage Journal

            That would be en extinction-scale rock. Not clear there'll be much left to take over after.

  • (Score: 2) by oumuamua on Monday March 22 2021, @06:06PM (18 children)

    by oumuamua (8401) on Monday March 22 2021, @06:06PM (#1127586)

    No one.
    As soon as the moon or Mars get an independent colony they will govern themselves. Sure, it is still decades away but will also happen quicker than most people think.
    And Musk agrees

    No Earth-based government has authority or sovereignty over Martian activities

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/elon-musk-spacex-mars-laws-starlink-b1396023.html [independent.co.uk]

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @06:12PM (15 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @06:12PM (#1127590) Journal

      The moon, but especially Mars will for a long time be dependent upon a very long supply chain from Earth. It would take quite a long time for Mars to become self sufficient. Martians would need self sufficiency before they try to rebel from Earth. Earth would be trying that whole time to have a functioning government on Mars that is loyal to Earth. A population fully indoctrinated by the correct use of social* media.

      *isn't socialism the excessive use of lots of social media? Therefore didn't exist prior to the web.

      --
      Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:03PM (11 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:03PM (#1127616)

        Mars has no resources worth the cost of shipping back to Earth, even at Musk's most fanciful Starship prices. Without exports to balance the cost of imports the colony must be able to provide for its own basic needs or it will starve itself.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:23PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:23PM (#1127628)

          A starship full of gold?

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @07:38PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @07:38PM (#1127637) Journal

            I don't know the answer. Which is more likely:

            0. A starship full of gold which must lift off Mars

            1. An asteroid full of gold ore oar that is for sail and can be steered "downward" toward Earth.

            --
            Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @07:28PM (8 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @07:28PM (#1127629) Journal

          So to repeat, and enhance my point, Mars depends on a long supply chain from Earth. To make it worse, using your facts, Earth has no direct economic benefit from supporting a colony on Mars. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Mars to try to gain its independence. If Mars has nothing of economic value on its own, it seems it could not independently sustain itself, let alone also put up a fight for independence. Using your your facts, Earth might happily say "okay, you're welcome to your independence! Good luck!"

          --
          Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
          • (Score: 2) by legont on Monday March 22 2021, @09:14PM (7 children)

            by legont (4179) on Monday March 22 2021, @09:14PM (#1127686)

            Well, Martians could come to Earth and claim their ancestor rights to certain resources. Being tough motherfuckers they might be hard to deal with. Wouldn't the USA be worried about it? Especially if Martian's ideology would depart from the US one.

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @09:17PM (5 children)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @09:17PM (#1127691) Journal

              Maybe I could go to Great Britain and try to claim some sort of ancestor rights. That sounds like a good idea. I'm sure they will be very receptive to this.

              --
              Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
              • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 23 2021, @09:11AM

                by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday March 23 2021, @09:11AM (#1127849) Homepage
                Shut up, Meghan!
                --
                Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
              • (Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:59PM (3 children)

                by legont (4179) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:59PM (#1127932)

                One does not actually have to go as the important rights would be intellectual and other virtual types.
                As per the Great Britain, the US robbed them well after the revolution. I am sure the US remembers the lesson and will try her best to avoid it with Mars.

                --
                "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:12PM (2 children)

                  by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 23 2021, @02:12PM (#1127940) Journal

                  There was the revolution.

                  After that, Great Britain and the US have been best friends.

                  --
                  Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
                  • (Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday March 23 2021, @11:17PM

                    by legont (4179) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @11:17PM (#1128118)

                    Not really. After the revolution the US stole all the intellectual property from Great Britain and they were on shaky ground until GB was finally defeated in WWII. Only then they became friends.

                    --
                    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @06:25AM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @06:25AM (#1128254) Journal
                    The US-UK relationship was sufficiently shaky that President Lincoln was worried about them aiding the Confederacy in the Civil War. Fortunately, that didn't happen on any significant scale.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:08AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:08AM (#1128186)
              “Being tough motherfuckers”? Seriously? After a decade on Mars the average 80-year-old will be able to kill them just by sitting on them. Their rib bones, decalcified, will all break and puncture the lungs. They will drown in their own blood from a pneumothorax.
      • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday March 23 2021, @06:14PM (2 children)

        by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday March 23 2021, @06:14PM (#1128035)

        The big advantage of a Mars colony is they could very rapidly become mostly self-sufficient, mass-wise at least. They've got plenty of raw materials to make air, water, and food. And glass, iron, etc. aren't much more difficult - in fact iron working will likely be much simpler than on Earth since they don't have to deal with ambient oxygen for the bulk production phases. Stuff may be mostly hand made for quite some time - but power-hammers, lathes, and even roller-mills are actually relatively simple machines easily made from raw iron, and it'll be a long time before mass-production of large equipment is necessary.

        Once they've got a basic industrial base established, what they'll need from Earth is mostly low-mass, "high tech" stuff - and the needs for that are likely to drop rapidly. Solar panel production is likely to be one of the first high-tech industries they'd want to develop as energy will be a major limiting factor, and once they have that they're most of the way towards making their own microprocessors and other electronics as well. Perhaps not nearly as fast as we can make on Earth - but there's very few situations where fast CPUs are actually a necessity rather than a luxury. Especially with recent advances in harnessing massive parallelism to compensate for our inability to make faster CPU cores.

        Plastics might be the major challenge early on - important stuff for gaskets, space suits, etc., and non-trivial to synthesize from water and CO2, or even bio-sources. I imagine those highly recyclable monomer-based plastics would be far more valuable on Mars. Modern medical supplies would be nice too, though strictly speaking not actually a necessity - we survived for millions of years without them here. I imagine herbal medicine will be quite popular, while often not as effective as the modern industrial variety, it can still do a lot of good, and would be far cheaper than importing medicines from Earth.

        The Moon in contrast will probably be hobbled by a shortage of both carbon and hydrogen, unless they find rich underground deposits. So they'll likely be stuck importing large masses of fossil fuels from Earth as ecological feedstock to fuel their growth. And since the shipping costs are almost as high as to Mars, and likely to dwarf the cost of the supplies themselves, they'll likely have much greater import expenses than Mars.

        Industrially, the Moon will be very similar to Mars - with the exception that they'll likely have rapidly growing export demand for orbital development. Oxygen will likely be their first major export, mostly for use as rocket fuel (it's 80% of Starship propellant by mass). It's plentiful in the lunar regolith (about 40% by mass), and easily extracted using the same magma refineries that will no doubt be popular on Mars (as developed by Sadoway for NASA), producing large quantities of steel, aluminum, etc. as byproducts.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:12AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:12AM (#1128188)
          You still need carbon - lots of carbon. Can’t grow crops without CO2. Can’t make steel without carbon. And with all that peroxide-laden dust, your iron will rust rapidly even without water.

          Mars isn’t hot like Venus but it’s still hell.

          • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:29AM

            by Immerman (3985) on Wednesday March 24 2021, @02:29AM (#1128199)

            Absolutely. And like I said - Mars has plenty, and the moon - well they'd probably need to import hydrocarbons from Earth (since hydrogen is really important too)

            Oh, and while carbon steel certainly has its uses, you don't actually require carbon for steel, other alloying elements can take its place - e.g. in Interstitial-free Steel and Maraging Steel carbon is considered an impurity. And even among carbon steels many varieties contain well under 1% carbon.

            Normally a LOT of carbon gets used in processing iron ore into usable iron, but there are now alternatives (such as Sadoway's electrochemical refinery that I mentioned), though they're currently more expensive. Of course, if you had to import coal from Earth that would turn the economics hard on its head.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:08PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @07:08PM (#1127619)

      >> No Earth-based government has authority or sovereignty over Martian activities

      Precisely why Musk is in such a rush to get to Mars and start a Mars-based government, with King Elon setting all the rules.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 22 2021, @07:36PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 22 2021, @07:36PM (#1127635) Journal

        King Elon setting all the rules.

        Kling Eon could have a democratic voting form of government. Everyone who is up to date on their payments for breathable air can vote. Part of the license agreement is to vote however the Kling says. Inhaling your first breath constitutes agreement to terms.

        --
        Satin worshipers are obsessed with high thread counts because they have so many daemons.
  • (Score: 2) by leon_the_cat on Monday March 22 2021, @06:11PM

    by leon_the_cat (10052) on Monday March 22 2021, @06:11PM (#1127588) Journal

    ass bescht.

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @09:53PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @09:53PM (#1127700)

    Trippin' Joe is looking to spend another $3 trillion... you Dems realize someone will have to pay for this don't you?

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @09:56PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @09:56PM (#1127702)

      Odds are Old Joe's not going to be around when the bill comes due.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:09PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:09PM (#1127707)

      That's somebody else's kid's problem.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:30PM (#1127715)

      Joe's mind is already there.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:57AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @03:57AM (#1127786)

      Just like everything else, they'll spread the money around, and then it will be gone, and then they'll need some more, and then they'll really run out of money, and then they'll need another few trillion, and then they'll forget what they wanted the money for.

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:32PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:32PM (#1127716)

    "I served as White House physician under THREE Presidents. I've seen what it takes physically AND mentally to do the job. I can tell you right now that the way Biden is hiding from the public is a MAJOR red flag. Something's not right!"

    - Ronny Jackson @RonnyJacksonTX

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:45PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 22 2021, @10:45PM (#1127729)

      Are they about to catch Dr. Candyman illegally dispensing controlled substances, again? Why else would he offer his "opinion'?

      • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 23 2021, @01:54AM (#1127762)

        Maybe Kommie Harris is encouraging Ronny.

  • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Monday March 22 2021, @10:38PM (1 child)

    by crafoo (6639) on Monday March 22 2021, @10:38PM (#1127723)

    Treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on. The first real, concrete situation that tests it will shred it. it's nothing but boomer mental masturbation and inverted morality. Power will work as power has always worked, despite the boomer self-stroking fantasies. The strong will make the rules and the weak will comply.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:49AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 24 2021, @01:49AM (#1128174) Journal

      it's nothing but greatest generation mental masturbation

      It predates boomers.

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