US colleges will require students to be vaccinated, despite state policies:
A growing number of US colleges have said all students must be fully vaccinated before returning to campus, in a move likely to anger some state governors. At least 14 colleges have said vaccination will be required so far, according to a CNN tally, and that number is expected to grow.
In late March Rutgers University became one of the first institutions to declare that having all students vaccinated will allow for an "expedited return to pre-pandemic normal."
Cornell, Brown, Notre Dame, Northeastern, Syracuse, Ithaca and Fort Lewis have made similar announcements, though all will make exceptions for medical or religious reasons. Cornell has also created an online registration tool so students and staff can register their vaccination status.
Two colleges, St. Edward's University in Austin, Texas, and Nova Southeastern University (NSU) in Broward, Florida, have gone a step further, requiring students and all campus employees to be vaccinated.
NSU's policy puts it on a collision course with Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. After NSU's announcement on April 1 DeSantis signed an executive order stating that vaccines are available but not mandated. Crucially the order prohibits any government entity or business from requiring a vaccine passport. NSU said Thursday that it is reviewing the executive order.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @11:38AM (43 children)
All the Chinese exchange students will obediently get their vaccination and will be able to continue their studies and eventual infiltration of US economy, while US students will stay at home and eat Twinkies while playing video games because of freedom.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday April 12 2021, @12:40PM (35 children)
Are these universities placing any limits on the efficacy of these vaccines? Last I heard the Chinese vaccine was only 50% effective. Don't we meed higher to achieve herd immunity?
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @01:25PM (27 children)
We are at a near saturating level of misinformation surrounding these vaccines. The original strain used to develop the vaccines is already extinct:
https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global [nextstrain.org]
The vaccine is going to be less and less effective as new resistant variants are selected and immunity wanes, using one number like 95% makes no sense. I expect we will see large outbreaks in many of these fully vaccinated colleges.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @01:36PM (26 children)
So far the people vaccinated are not jamming the hospital beds and ICU units. And that is the outcome we want. Unless you missed the boat by a year, it's not reasonable to eradicate this virus anymore. It will remain endemic and we'll just have to live with it. The vaccine allows us to do so without overflowing hospitals.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @01:56PM (21 children)
Hospitals are overflowing in New Zealand where there no covid:
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/its-crisis-overwhelmed-ed-staff-in-hospitals-often-tears-experts-say [tvnz.co.nz]
Stopping covid does not prevent overflowing hospitals. Building bigger hospitals with more staff prevents overflowing hospitals. There was a year to do this and no one did it, because they do not actually care about preventing overflowing hospitals.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @02:24PM (11 children)
No - nobody built new hospitals because they'd all be standing empty once everyone was either vaccinated or recovered from COVID. They'd be a total waste of money.
It'd be like building all new streets to handle the flood of traffic around a superbowl - a huge amount of wasted money. You make temporary plans to handle the temporary surge, and then things to back to normal.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:26PM (8 children)
Hospitals are overwhelmed in NZ. The nurses are all crying and patients are stuck in the hall. There is no covid. Are you a bot?
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @04:07PM (7 children)
NZ is a special case, they're suspecting the surge is due to all the people who avoided treatment for the last year due to COVID. They have no reason to believe it's a long-term trend, and so expanding hospitals would be a poor investment.
There is never any financially sound reason to expand infrastructure unless you're expecting a long-term increase in demand.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:25PM (6 children)
No they aren't.
Hospitals are overwhelmed every flu season in the US. https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patients/ [time.com]
The solution is more space and staff, which no one cares to do.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @06:58PM (5 children)
Nope, try again - the second paragraph in your own link:
“I’ve been in practice for 30 years, and it’s been a good 15 or 20 years since I’ve seen a flu-related illness scenario like we’ve had this year.”
Building infrastructure for something that happens only once every 15-20 years is extremely unlikely to generate good return on investment. Just like airlines and amusement parks, private hospitals want to operate at very near capacity on a regular basis in order to maximize the return on investment. If that means they have to turn people away during occasional surges, well the lost revenue is far less than the cost of over-building, so it's still an unmitigated win for the investors.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @07:12PM
2013:
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/14/health-officials-say-nj-hospitals-overrun-with-flu-cases/ [cbslocal.com]
2015:
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/hospitals-across-u.s.-are-overrun-with-flu-patients-385536067882 [nbcnews.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:29PM (3 children)
Exactly. Just like building a power grid that can withstand the class of storm that only occurs once every 100 years. Oh, wait...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @02:57AM
IF they don't like Texas, they can move to Mexico.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @04:49AM (1 child)
If you are referring to Texas then it was a 'class of storm that only occurs once every 10 years', not 100. IIRC the federal government requires building for 100 year events.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @05:13AM
Whilst technically true, it was billed as a 100 year event.
Which one? Both.
(Score: 3, Touché) by shortscreen on Monday April 12 2021, @08:54PM
Except what you wrote didn't contradict what the parent wrote. If hospital capacity is dictated by financial interests that won't abide excess capacity, then "the hospitals are full!" is an ordinary occurance rather than a cause for alarm.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday April 13 2021, @02:55AM
Eh, since there won't be any games for a while, put up a MASH unit inside the stadium, at least they have lights and water
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @03:01PM (8 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:27PM (7 children)
How so?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:35PM (6 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @07:26PM (5 children)
What exactly made it dangerous to build new hospitals in New Zealand last year?
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @07:54PM (4 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:07PM (3 children)
So now it is difficult instead of dangerous? And in my city there were more construction projects than ever, so your premise is wrong.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @10:05PM (2 children)
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @12:31AM (1 child)
In my town construction workers wore an onion on their belt, as was the style at the time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @02:59AM
Is that a gay thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_symbols [wikipedia.org]
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:21PM (3 children)
oh stfu, you brainwashed slave. this bug, despite the fact that you paid for it to be strengthened in a lab, is still not that big of a deal, and natural immunity is already winning. moronic slaves getting their slow kill shot has shit all to do with anything. you're just a suck ass bitch.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @10:13PM (1 child)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:07PM
(Score: 2) by Tork on Friday May 21 2021, @01:11AM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @02:19PM (6 children)
Herd immunity is looking unlikely - you generally need 85-95% immunization for herd immunity to work. And as contagious as COVID is, we're probably talking at least 95%.
Meanwhile IIRC we've got at least 15% of the population claiming they will never get vaccinated, another 15% saying they probably won't, plus the roughly 18% under 15 for whom the safety and efficacy of the vaccines are not yet well established, who mostly won't get severely sick, but through whom COVID can reasonably be expected to spread like wildfire as we reopen schools.
And given the political climate, it's a fair bet that most of those clamoring the loudest to open up are also those who aren't planning to get vaccinated.
At this point, I'm half leaning towards waiting until everyone who wants the vaccine has had a chance to get it, and just openning up again. Plan to refuse medical service to any voluntarily unvaccinated COVID patient once the hospitals near capacity, and decide where to dig the mass graves now since we're likely looking at increasing the total number of cases to almost 3x in just few months, and increasing the number of deaths probably at least 10x as the hospitals overload and the risk of death surges without adequate medical care.
Alternately, we could try to avoid the excess deaths from overloading hospitals by actually seeking to flattening the curve - open up in a controlled fashion with an eye on spreading COVID as fast as possible without overloading the hospitals. But that could stretch it out for another year or so, primarily for the benefit of those who don't want the help.
If you're one of those who couldn't get the vaccine for medical reasons - good luck. Hopefully you can stock up and hunker down at home for a month or two as the surge passes, then things will be back to about as close to normal as they're ever going to get. With luck the tidal wave of COVID cases will even provide enough lingering herd immunity to starve out the straggling cases.
The biggest downside I see is the increased risk of a new, more dangerous, vaccine-immune COVID variant evolving within the surge of patients - but if they're all likely to get COVID eventually anyway, we're mostly just talking about taking a fresh hit a little sooner.
(Score: 5, Funny) by driverless on Monday April 12 2021, @02:24PM
We may never get to herd immunity, but I'd say we reached herd mentality some time ago.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:31PM
Then they either get infected and "vaccinate" that way, or not get infected and demonstrate that the thing is as overrated as they believe. Win-win?
Maybe even get a written agreement to that from them (limited to COVID, of course). For those who really do expect to not get sick, no problem at all signing it, and for those who just hadn't thought things through, a cause to do so.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:41PM
This reminds me of Facebook banning people. The smart ones already banned facebook via their hosts file.
If you want to go OD on hydroxychloroquine then put on a ventilator (or whatever new thing that has been thought up in a hysterical state) go for it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:24PM
"The biggest downside I see is the increased risk of a new, more dangerous, vaccine-immune COVID variant evolving within the surge of patients"
that's probably the whole point of the "experimental gene therapy". you dumb zombies will be causing the spread of the new mutant diseases and will blame it on the few real humans left.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:44AM
What absurd R value are you using to come up with that conclusion? And from what orifice are you pulling that value?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:08PM
I keep hearing 70%, given how contagious covid is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @01:08PM (6 children)
Question is, which cohort will be better educated at the end of the charade?
(Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @01:26PM (5 children)
Are you suggesting the Chinese student will lack the requisite video gaming and twinkie eating skills to get a good job?
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(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:22PM (4 children)
I am suggesting that extra brainwashing reduces abilities in hard sciences and engineering, time spent receiving it reduces time available for learning real things, and being disinformed for politically correct reasons is worse than remaining ignorant.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @03:05PM
Heh. You might wanna see a doc, get your irony levels checked.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Monday April 12 2021, @07:54PM (1 child)
That's why there's more emphasis on "groupwork" nowadays, 1 or 2 good students do all the work and the Chinese students sit on their asses and do jack shit, and if you complain about it you will be labeled a racist or creating a hostile atmosphere blah blah. I'm not talking out of my ass to be trollish, myself and others I know have personally dealt with this situation.
Don't think that you'll get away from that nonsense in a master's program and/or in Ivy League schools -- they're now doing all that nonsense in those situations, too. In the next few years we'll probably see hiring managers prioritizing certain education graduation years over others, on the sly, because once upon a time degrees were earned and not given. This is of course a result of the Chinese and the Jewish for taking over American education. And for the diversity situation, of course, just lie if you don't have any diversity in you. Not like they'll make you take DNA tests* for hiring or admissions...YET.
* As I mentioned in another post, vaccinations in the past have also been used as DNA collection programs for the CIA, with Osama Bin Laden as an example. "hurr durr why oh why isn't anybody taking our vaccines despite our multimillion dollar ad campaigns targeted towards minorities?!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:30AM
True. I was in a class with Ethanol_fueled, and he never did squat. Not surprising the Boston Dynamics canned his ass for engineering incompetence, and anti-asian bigotry. Poor guy is approaching, what, 30 now? Unemployed, in Greenland? Of course, at least Andre the Giant had some skills.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 13 2021, @11:44AM
I've been saying the same thing, yet people still listen to Fox, Breitbart, OANN, and worse. What can we do? Some people refuse to function.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @12:31PM (38 children)
Basic business theory: To sell what you have as better, you first have to make it appear different.
"NSU's policy puts it on a collision course with Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. After NSU's announcement on April 1 DeSantis signed an executive order stating that vaccines are available but not mandated."
Best case, he believes what he says.
Worst case, he is a cynical politician, willing to throw his supporters and their kids under the virus bus to support the illusion that he is different. He's not different, the other side is just a willing to throw the country under the bus to support the same illusion.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @01:11PM
2020 called, it wants its FUD back. Ask your handler to update your script.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @01:31PM (36 children)
What doesn't make sense: Open everything up AND NOT require vaccinations.
What does make sense:
EITHER:
(1) open everything up and require vaccinations
(2) keep everything closed and don't require vaccinations
In case (1), you get the economy going. People who don't want a vaccination don't have to get one, but they can stay home to keep everyone else safe.
If the governor were to implement (1), the population might achieve some level of herd immunity. The non-vaccinated could venture out of their homes. They might not get sick. They wouldn't represent much danger to the majority who are vaccinated.
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(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:04PM (16 children)
The problem is you need an ID to get the vaccine and this affects minorities far more than whites.
Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.
Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, people must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID. Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.
The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.
This vaccination requirement is effectively excluding millions of minorities from attending college.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @02:27PM (11 children)
I don't know of any specific instance you might be referring to.
Where I live, it is possible to get vaccinated with or without insurance. I am to get my 2nd dose tomorrow. I learned that they are handing out covid-19 pre-paid test kits like halloween candy. When you get 2nd dose they ask if you want a test kit. Stated reason: they want to get them out into the community. Kit has prepaid mailer and online code to get results. Use the test yourself or give it to someone else to use.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:32PM (10 children)
No one mentioned insurance. You need to have an ID to get vaccinated.
No one mentioned tests either.
Let me guess, you are rich and white and trying to deflect from your privilege by avoiding the ID issue.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @02:36PM (4 children)
Honestly, I do not remember if I had to show ID at any point or not. I guess I might find out tomorrow when I get 2nd dose.
Registration for the 1st (and 2nd) does was done totally online. A time slot is given to you. It is drive through. Don't even get out of your car.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:47PM (1 child)
Because you have an ID and do not realize your privilege.
People without IDs will notice, because they need to verify you are eligible and not getting paid to get vaccinated for someone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @12:33AM
It is because the requirements are different in different places. In the state where my brother lives, anyone can get a shot that is old enough, and all you have to do for that is sign something that says you are old enough to receive the vaccine. Where my uncle lives, you need some proof of age, but it includes things like photocopies of birth certificates. Other places have residency requirements, etc. Here, you have to have evidence you are in one of the allowed phases. That is what you get when you have a hodgepodge approach, where some places even let the individual pharmacies come up with their own rules.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @03:12PM
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday April 13 2021, @01:51AM
Indiana Department of Health states that proof of age is required, as only ages 16 and up are eligible for the Pfizer vaccine, and only ages 18 and up are eligible for the Moderna and Janssen vaccines. See the teen vaccine fact sheet [in.gov].
(Score: 4, Informative) by EvilSS on Monday April 12 2021, @02:56PM (4 children)
I didn't. Filled out a form, got shot, left. They did not ask for ID. Even for places with ID requirements, many do not require a state issued ID, just proof of residency such as a bill with your name and address on it. For undocumented migrants, exceptions are also being made on a state by state basis as well.
So stop concern trolling. No on believes you actually give a shit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @04:50PM (3 children)
So wherever you live I can have an ineligible person pay me to use my info to get the jab? Then I get the vaccine passport record without the jab and I get money?
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday April 12 2021, @06:05PM (2 children)
Seems like a weird thing to do at this point since both where I live and the closest neighboring state are allowing anyone over 16 to get one but sure, if you can find a sucker to pay you it would work. You could also let them go vote for you using the same scheme as well if you're down for that. Heck, you could even rent them your Netflix account too. Have a blast, get creative.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:31PM (1 child)
Lol, more privileged white rich folk logic. This is what real people need to deal with:
https://www.businessinsider.co.za/st-vincent-volcano-cruise-ship-evacuation-only-for-vaccinated-2021-4 [businessinsider.co.za]
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday April 13 2021, @11:27AM
I'll take your word for it. After all, it was your logic, not mine.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:29PM (1 child)
Let me guess, whoever downvoted this is white.
Or maybe rich, which made you act white.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @01:56AM
White is the new Wong!
bad joke, but given likely economic outcomes maybe not far off, and good news the Chinese can be pretty xenophobic, so for everyone but white folks things will probably seem pretty normal!
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Monday April 12 2021, @09:13PM
Who do you imagine occupying the overlap on the venn diagram containing "people who can afford college in the USA or can jump through enough hoops to get a paid scholarship" and "people with insurmountable difficulties obtaining ID" ? I don't think any such people exist. Even if there were, why is the school's vaccine policy the problem and not the vaccination ID policy?
Maybe this was just a parody of the dem position on voter ID. In that case, carry on :)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:11PM
Last I heard, you need a bunch of muscle that the vaccines can be injected into, usually your upper arm.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @02:37PM (15 children)
What's wrong with
3) Wait until everyone who wants a vaccination gets it, then open everything up and let the un-vaccinated die in droves? Just make sure to give the hospitals permission to refuse COVID treatment to the unvaccinated as needed to keep services available to the rest of the population. And decide where to dig the mass graves now.
Why should we keep to country locked down to protect people who don't want the protection?
As for requiring vaccinations it would be a tidy solution to the problem, but sets some really terrible precedent for bodily autonomy. If the government can require you to get vaccinated, what's stopping them from requiring you to get your monthly dose of "I Love Big Brother" obedience cocktail? We haven't developed such a cocktail yet, but not for lack of trying.
(Score: 2, Troll) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @02:57PM (9 children)
I don't think it's that simple. Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee. I don't mind the un-vaccinated dying in droves, as long as they made an informed decision about that. They have no right to put other people at risk because of their self destructive tendencies.
Whether it makes me a bad person or not, I have to admit having some sympathy for the view of de-prioritizing individuals for COVID-19 treatment at hospitals, who have willfully put other individuals at risk, and have themselves become sick in doing so.
I have to agree with that.
So rather than require people to get them, simply restrict un-vaccinated individuals from things that put other people at risk.
It can be done. My wife and I have not set foot into a store or restaurant in well over a year. We have groceries delivered to our door. We use the Target app to order stuff for pick up -- drive to store, use App to say "I'm here", they bring it out to your car and load it in trunk or hatchback -- all without rolling down windows or being maskless. We didn't do anything with anyone last Thanksgiving or Christmas. It truly
sucksbites. Wife made us a nice thanksgiving spread, which we enjoyed, and had lefovers for many days. I took some good thanksgiving leftovers that day to a friend who lives alone and is similarly isolated and careful.We lived through 2020.
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(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @03:19PM (7 children)
No, it is the "other people" who have no right to invent improbable "risks" to justify their doing actual material harm to people.
You carry around a few kilograms of bacteria and viruses. Any one of those trillions cells and particles is potentially deadly for someone whose immune system does not do its work. Let's seal you into a hermetic can for the rest of your life to prevent that horrible possibility, shall we?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiome [wikipedia.org]
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-human-microbiome-project-defines-normal-bacterial-makeup-body [nih.gov]
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @04:54PM (3 children)
Thank you for your opinion. I'll listen to the medical people.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @05:34PM (2 children)
Aren't the medical people, at the moment, all saying that vaccination totally protects you from severe COVID? Who you are listening to, to hear the opposite instead, pray tell?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:12PM
Nope. Any more questions?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:07PM
An increasing number of people are dying of COVID after being fully vaccinated and beyond the 2 week period where immunity is supposed to kick in. These vaccines are more like flu shots. They provide temporary resistance, not immunity, and will likely need to be repeated each year - indefinitely. And even after taking your shot you can still catch COVID, and even die from it. The goal of the shot has gone from immunity (as was initially claimed before they were granted emergency use authorization) to simply reducing severe outcomes.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @05:15PM (2 children)
The "improbable risk" to which you refer has killed nearly 3 million people worldwide.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @05:28PM
All of whom vaccinated against COVID?
Bad liar, no cookie for you.
BTW, 3 million is how many die from communicable lower respiratory tract disease (aka pneumonia) in any regular year.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death [who.int]
And if you start counting every death with something as a death from that something, then the deadliest thing in the world is the Escherichia coli bacterium; literally everyone who died, carried a lot of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:34PM
Which, even with funny math Covid counts, makes it an improbable risk of 0.037%.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @03:54PM
>It can be done. My wife and I...
Good on you. I've done much the same. But the landscape is changing rapidly. We locked down to buy time for a vaccine to be developed. And we did so. We won - or will have within a few months. Once everyone willing has been vaccinated we will be as close to total victory over this pandemic as it's reasonably possible to get.
> They have no right to put other people at risk because of their self destructive tendencies.
Unfortunately I don't see any other option.
With herd immunity not being an option, it's pretty inevitable that virtually everyone who's not immune will eventually catch COVID. The only question is just how quickly that happens. How many people do you know who've *never* caught a cold? And colds are mostly far less contagious.
Once you accept that as the unavoidable reality it dramatically changes the risk-analysis landscape. There's nothing left for us to do to significantly improve your odds of never catching COVID. Should we continue with this insanely expensive lockdown forever, in order to grant the involuntarily vulnerable a few more healthy months?
At least with a single massive surge those who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons, and those who remain concerned, can hope to isolate themselves for a few months until it's over. Continuing public precautions indefinitely could draw this out for years.
And by de-prioritizing medical care for voluntarily unvaccinated individuals we can ensure that there are resources available for those who became ill through bad luck rather than choice.
That said, I fully support private companies that choose to protect their employees by requiring customers to remain masked. I'd even consider keeping mask mandates in place for essential services like grocery stores that the vulnerable can't entirely avoid.
All the voluntary stuff though? Open it up. Let those who wish to live riskily do so. Maybe keep the augmented unemployment support going until the surge has petered out, so that we're not forcing people back into high-risk situations.
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday April 12 2021, @03:17PM (2 children)
Not that it really matters all that much. Brazil has gone full tilt stupid and are reducing restrictions while infections (including their very own strain, thanks!) and deaths are skyrocketing. The deaths rate is particularly high in Brazil right now. They should pass up the US death toll sometime in June at the rate they are going right now. India is also seeing skyrocketing cases and deaths now as well, which is interesting since they were fairing well previously considering their population size and density.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday April 12 2021, @04:01PM (1 child)
> I'd like to get off the damn merry go round already.
Me too. Unfortunately that's not an option unless we achieve herd immunity, which is looking to be impossible without allowing the government to mandate medical procedures.
So, do we open up, trusting the vaccines to hopefully avoid the worst outcomes even among the resistant variants? Or do we stay in lockdown forever?
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday April 12 2021, @06:15PM
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @06:39PM
Think of the effect that'll have on Thanksgivings across the nation.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:30PM
i can't wait for you people to reveal yourselves and watch what really happens from trying to deny people their basic access to food, etc. You communists' bitches are going to get stacked like trash.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Monday April 12 2021, @09:58PM (2 children)
Whatever unconventional theory of logic underpins this post bears further exploration. If requiring vaccination means the non-vax'd aren't a danger to the vax'd, how is that different than not requiring it? Does it affect whether the vax'd are a danger to the un-vax'd? If the way for you to stay safe is for other people to stay home, then what would be the result of you staying home? Were old people given vaccinations first to keep other people safe or because they stayed home too much or because they didn't stay home enough? Feel free to organize your response in the form of a truth table if it would be more expedient than prose.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday April 13 2021, @01:54PM (1 child)
The people who get vaccinated, which appear to be the vast majority, are the ones who should not have to stay home. That's the whole reason to get vaccinated.
Anyone who stays home and isolates seems to be someone who isn't in great need of vaccination, since they have either eliminated or severely reduced their exposure.
People getting vaccinated are doing so for the purpose of being able to go out again.
So in what possible way does it make sense for unvaccinated people go to out and vaccinated people to stay home?
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:44PM
You again miss the most obvious issue here - liberty. How people are going to evaluate the pros and cons of the vaccines is going to vary radically, even when they have the exact same mindset on it. For instance COVID for those under the age of 65 is basically harmless in terms of mortality. The vaccines, by contrast, have already shown themselves to have a surprising and lethal short term side effect. And what are the long-term side effects? Well nobody will knows for what may be years, if there are any.
So for a person of advanced age, vaccine is bordering a no-brainer. COVID is fairly dangerous, the vaccines seem safe 'enough', and any potential long-term side effects have relatively relevance to you. But for a young and healthy person? COVID is not much of a danger, and so participating in the vaccine experiment does not really offer them much. Even if they believe the risk of negative effects of the vaccine are low, this is contrasted against the fact that the risks from COVID are not only low - but there is also they possibility that they may never catch it, and if they do catch it - they would most likely be asymptomatic anyhow.
How you personally measure and evaluate the pros and cons will lead you to a personal decision. And in free states you now have the *liberty* to execute that decision. Want to get vaccinated? Want to go out in public? Want to do both, neither, or any combination of such? You have the liberty to do so. In authoritarian states, the government tells you what to do and you must obey, or they will resort to force. As I expect you an older person, you would probably prefer the authoritarian choice because it aligns with your own interests. COVID vaccination does not prevent spread, though it does help to reduce it. And so because vaccination is in your interests, you presumably want to do everything you can to force everybody else to be vaccinated. But in my opinion, such a worldview is myopic. You will rapidly change your tune when you find the same authoritarian systems carry out actions where you are the one who ends up being harmed.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @01:47PM (28 children)
Any business, organization or private citizen who is on privately owned property can refuse entry to unvaccinated (or un-masked) persons as they see fit.
It is so amusing to see defenders of private property rights and no tresspassing argue that private property owners cannot control who comes on to their property. The people who argue this are also the ones who utter the mantra: "corporations are people too!"
Then they do an about face when someone who does any combination of:
1. not wearing a mask
2. not wearing clothes
3. defecating and/or urinating in the store aisles
4. being generally obnoxious
5. doing other extremely bad things [youtube.com] to get banned from ALL Walmarts for life
6. or (OMG!) worst of all: tobacco use!
They'll defend the above group of people's "right" to trespass after being asked to leave.
The script usually goes like this:
Obnoxious person:
* But there isn't a law . . .
* I have a right to do what I want even if it interferes with other people's rights!
* The laws and certainly not norms of common decency or courtesy do not apply to me!
They they love to distort things with a proclamation such as: I was arrested and tazed for not wearing a mask!
No. It went like this:
1. You were not wearing a mask, so you were asked to leave.
2. By not leaving, and remaining an arguing, you committed criminal trespass
3. You were arrested for criminal trespass
4. Your resisting arrest is why you were tazed
5. Your assault on officer(s) and/or store personnel helped you score an additional felony charge
Why can't people behave in a civilized society? What has happened to people behaving normally and kindly? Why are the people who misbehave this way so generally loud and obnoxious? What has happened to them in their life to make them this way?
It seems like the above would apply to a university as well. A governor can executive order what he wants. But how can he order a private land owner (a non-state university) to do unhealthy and unsafe things that clearly go against medical consensus?
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(Score: 3, Insightful) by driverless on Monday April 12 2021, @02:28PM (8 children)
And, from another point of view, the ones who are most violently opposed to the gummint telling them what to do, and even willing to take up arms to oppose it as they constantly remind us, are quite happy when it's the gummint telling others what to do. Will they take up arms to defend the colleges' right to require vaccinations?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:35PM (5 children)
As soon as said colleges stop taking government money?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @02:40PM (4 children)
Education is worth doing.
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. Oh, wait. I think we already are trying it.
How about the government working to, or helping others to make education affordable so it might be unnecessary to require government money.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:44PM (3 children)
And won't it be downright hilarious when ignorance turns out to work better than the current brand of education, in the end?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:01PM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @07:35PM
"current brand of education"
I see someone gets their talking points from rightwing pundits that prefer having you remain stupid and easily manipulated. Have you tried Joe Rogan? It is GOOP for men!
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anti-aristarchus on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:40AM
Exhibit A: The Minty Buzzard
Exhibit B: the Ignorant Hillbilly Runaway.
This is the fantasy associated with the Dunning-Kreuger Effect, the idea that Stupidity and Ignorance, and Trump, are just as good as education, scholarship, knowledge, and wisdom. But that is the Effect: they are not. Stupidity is stupid, ignorance produces Runaway1956's, and The Buzzard, not so Mighty, when you look at what he claims is true, with his limited intellect.
Not to say that Ignorance is not sometimes the best policy. But choosing ignorance, in total ignorance, never works out for anyone. Careful, AC!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @06:42PM
Hmm well it's hard to say. They did get their guns out over haircuts during a pandemic... but not when police murdered unarmed people. It's a flip of the coin, I reckon.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:58PM
You mean the ones who have been trying to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies for decades, the ones who currently have sponsored almost 200 state laws meant to interfere and prevent transgendered people from getting healthcare, but who are also the ones crying "you can't tell me what to do with my body!"??
The republican party is one big group of the whiniest pussies in history. The kind of kid who screams and bullies the loudest, but the slightest rebuttal sends them crying home to mommy. Following all the nasty invectives, remember how shocked and butthurt they were when they were called a basket of deplorables? The outrage! Mommy, they are so mean! They are nothing but a huge group of two year olds complete with all the accompanying Karen tantrums when told they can't have their way. I've never seen such a group so scared of EVERYTHING that they're now sheltering with the white nationalists because they need anyone who will tell them that they'll protect them from all the big scary monsters out there. Liz Cheney has more integrity and, yes, BALLS, than almost every other republican in Washington, and that is a really sad statement when she is the one who is seen as the outcast for being too "centrist."
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @02:42PM (12 children)
Because the "society where I use any government-approved pretext to harm and humiliate my neighbor" is an antithesis of civilized?
I understand that living in crowded cities makes human beings hate everyone including themselves. I do not understand why you equate this mental illness and civilization.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @03:02PM (1 child)
Two counter points:
0. I live in a medium sized city and don't have everyone around me.
1. My observation is that people who normally don't live in the city are the ones who venture in to the city to so loudly proclaim their rights but have zero concern about anyone else around them. Maybe that is just a stereotype. I'm not immune from that.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday April 12 2021, @03:02PM
Typo: don't hate everyone around me
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(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @03:51PM (9 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @04:43PM (8 children)
What answer you need? When you want to harm people, but are too cowardly to go and beat up someone, and so wait for government to designate safe targets for you? It is not "civilized", dude, you delude yourself. "Fascist" is what it is.
Das Dritte Reich designated Jews and Slavs as "Untermenschen", for the cowardly followers to have their safe fun. The fun turned out not to be that safe in the end, but some tens of millions did not live to see the fun-loving guys and gals receive their just desserts. Now your Leaders designate "ableists", "denialists" etc for your safe fun and you run with it. Who wants to study that pesky history, indeed?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @05:07PM (7 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @05:15PM (6 children)
When your script fails to give an usable retort, do you generate random strings on your phone?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @05:28PM (5 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @05:37PM (4 children)
The default line in the script triggered. Pity.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday April 12 2021, @05:58PM (3 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @06:49PM (2 children)
Problem is, the sense of entitlement to lord it over others is an irreparable defect.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @07:43PM
Can you tell the rest of the Republicans?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:49AM
Actual competence and knowledge absolutely gives authority over the very really stupid people following Rupert Murdock and his Merry Australian Right-wing Tory agenda. America? Ruled by Auzzie proxies of the Royal British Empire? Never thought I would see it. Yes, we will lord it over your deplorable Stupidity, get used to it.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Monday April 12 2021, @08:33PM
First, many educational institutions receive a significant amount of funding from the government, even if indirectly through student loans.
Second, private institutions cannot discriminate against protected classes. Protected classes include disabilities and medical history, such as those that might prevent one from getting vaccinated.
Third, an individual's medical records receive strong privacy protections in the US. I don't think these colleges realize that they don't want to be taking on that responsibility.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 12 2021, @09:50PM (4 children)
"Any business, organization or private citizen who is on privately owned property can refuse entry to unvaccinated (or un-masked) persons as they see fit."
So it's ok to discriminate against people who don't do what you think they should do with their bodies(vaccinate), but not ok to discriminate against people who don't do what i think they should do with their bodies (homosexual cake baking and what not). I don't actually care about that, i'm just pointing out your obvious stupidity/hypocrisy. Don't give me your bullshit about how i'm killing people indirectly via nature by not "vaccinating" either.That's sooo lame.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 13 2021, @11:52AM (3 children)
Big difference here: the vax-refusers are harming people, while for example me and my girlfriend aren't. Lesbians are actually cleaner than any other group, including straight women, when it comes to STDs. It's about harm, AC, not ideology. But you can't or won't comprehend that, because it would wreck your selfish, rotten, tiny little worldview. So instead you post this trash.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @06:55PM (2 children)
People who are not vaccinated aren't harming anybody. If you want a vaccination its to protect yourself, not others. And most people are not infected, and even of those that are infected - most are asymptomatic who have negligible ability to spread the virus.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 13 2021, @07:51PM
So this is the mew narrative huh? Sure would appreciate a proper study to back up that clai..
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 14 2021, @12:58AM
That sure sounds like a measurable, quantitative claim. Can you show us the data proving this to be the case?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...