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posted by Fnord666 on Monday April 19, @01:48AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]

Why it takes 2 weeks for the Covid vaccines to kick in:

If we're patient, the FDA-authorized vaccines are all excellent at preventing disease (though Johnson and Johnson may have some safety concerns. That's still TBD. Stay tuned).

"The efficacy of these vaccines is outstanding, but that's not realized until two weeks after the vaccination," said Dr. Thomas Russo, the chief of infectious disease at the University of Buffalo's Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences.

Why two weeks? "When you get vaccinated, your immune system gets a to-do list," explained Mark Cameron, an immunologist at Case Western Reserve University who previously helped contain the outbreak of another deadly coronavirus, SARS, in 2003. What does the immune system need to do with the vaccine?

(All three FDA-authorized vaccines don't contain the actual virus, but genetic code showing our cells how to create just a small, specific part of the virus. Specifically, our cells make the virus' spike protein, which is designed to bind to, and ultimately infect, our cells.)

  1. Our immune system will gradually recognize the spike protein (produced by the vaccine) as an intruder.
  2. In response to recognizing this foreign spike protein, the bodies' immune cells will cooperate to start producing protective proteins, called antibodies, to protect you against the virus. If you're infected, these antibodies bind to the spike proteins of the virus, making it difficult or impossible for the virus to bind and gain access to our cells. (When inside, the virus hijacks our cellular machinery to mass multiply. It's an effective parasite).
  3. "It's around the two-week mark that the immune system is producing antibodies at levels that block infections," said Cameron.

Journal Reference:
Nicole Doria-Rose, Mehul S. Suthar, Mat Makowski, et al. Antibody Persistence through 6 Months after the Second Dose of mRNA-1273 Vaccine for Covid-19 [open], New England Journal of Medicine (DOI: 10.1056/NEJMc2103916)


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  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:13AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:13AM (#1139202)

    is much better this time.

    Guess it's time to pay my due.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:45AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:45AM (#1139240)

      One time I praise the editor, you mod me "off-topic."

      We soy nerds deserve the editing we get, I guess.

    • (Score: 2) by cykros on Monday April 19, @02:47PM

      by cykros (989) on Monday April 19, @02:47PM (#1139393)

      I mean, it calls them FDA approved. They're not. They have Emergency Use Authorization. The difference matters.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Megahard on Monday April 19, @02:18AM (11 children)

    by Megahard (4782) on Monday April 19, @02:18AM (#1139203)

    Much better explanation. https://xkcd.com/2425/ [xkcd.com]

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday April 19, @05:58AM (10 children)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday April 19, @05:58AM (#1139283)

      It's even cooler than that.

      In https://xkcd.com/2404/, [xkcd.com] there's a pretty conventional explanation of immune system mechanisms. The usual is that dendritic cells scavenge intruders and then act as wanted poster billboards. They show other immune cells the intruder, and the others are programmed to start an immune response.

      One admirable bit of coolness about the mRNA vaccines is that the lipid particles are especially good at fusing with dendritic cells. They turn the wanted poster billboards into wanted poster factories. The rest of the immune system gets an exceptionally strong signal.

      I don't know whether that's serendipity or brilliance but I'm delighted to have the results brewing in my lymph nodes.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @09:12AM (9 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @09:12AM (#1139327)

        Too bad that is exactly what you do NOT want to happen for robust immunity.

        Your body is not supposed to launch a full blown response to a single amino acid sequence because it is easily escaped via mutation. Then you can get stuck with crappy immunity towards similar viruses for the rest of your life.

        It is like a wanted poster of a guy with a mustache then he shaves it off so nobody can find him anymore.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin [wikipedia.org]

        https://www.statnews.com/2021/04/16/next-generation-covid-19-vaccines-are-supposed-to-be-better-some-experts-worry-they-could-be-worse/ [statnews.com]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:31AM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:31AM (#1139336)

          Except the immune system isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. They don't just target one feature, but dozens epitopes that are half a dozen amino acids long. Shave off the mustache and the antibodies that target the hair color, the face shape, the gait, the smell, etc. still work just fine. In fact, that article you cited even has multiple experts lay out a reason why it isn't likely to be a problem for SARS-CoV-2, especially if we get it under control early enough, because it is restricted in its ability to change and still work.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:16AM (6 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:16AM (#1139342)

            All those epitopes are exactly the same with no variation from a strain that no longer exists except in labs.

            https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global [nextstrain.org]

            With the vaccine you are only getting immunity towards the spike protein. And, as mentioned at the link, the double proline mutation they introduced hides the S2 epitopes. So you really only get immunity towards S1, which is the fastest mutating region.

            Natural immunity (both t-cell and antibodies) is against multiple versions of the entire virus, and usually requires multiple exposures a few months apart to trigger full blown immunity. This is smart because the body then gets an idea of which regions are mutating slower which indicates a good target.

            Irreversably modifying people's immunity to focus just on S1 from a strain that doesn't even exist anymore is not a good idea, at all.

            Good luck to everyone who is beta testing this based on hopeful speculation that everything will be fine.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @07:59PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @07:59PM (#1139489)

              > Good luck to everyone who is beta testing this based on hopeful speculation that everything will be fine.

              Thanks - I'm really feeling your positive vibes. Maybe we can invoke the prayer warriors?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:53PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:53PM (#1139504)

                If you give people, who don't really know what they are doing, concentrated chemicals and sharp objects they can easily do a lot of damage. Just sayin.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:02PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:02PM (#1139560)

              I'll admit that the nextstrain page is scary looking when you don't understand it. But the fact is that the vast majority of mutations are synonymous mutations. A surprisingly large number of them are mutations to a synonymous codon and then switching back to the previous codon. It is like your analogous gentlemen switching which side of his mustache he trims first. Sure, that is technically different but doesn't change the appearance of the resulting mustache, and does nothing to hinder the response to it.

              The double proline substitution used in many vaccines also has the OPPOSITE effect. It adds structural rigidity to the spike protein, without introducing changes to the epitope amino acids or conformational changes, which prevents premature denaturing or distortion, thus increasing the opportunity for epitopes to be recognized by the immune system. And, as mentioned, most mutations that will occur are synonymous anyway. Natural immunity only arises from multiple strains if those are what you are exposed to and there is nothing to prevent the use of boosters in vaccination either. Altogether, the vaccine increases the opportunity for the body to mount a response to multiple epitopes, many highly conserved, located in multiple parts of the spike protein without introducing "original sin."

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:43PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:43PM (#1139570)

                > Topham doesn’t think this will be a problem in vaccinated people, because of the way the vaccines in use have been designed. The spike proteins they trigger production of appear to hide the S2 region, he said. The immune system can’t fixate on something it doesn’t see.
                https://www.statnews.com/2021/04/16/next-generation-covid-19-vaccines-are-supposed-to-be-better-some-experts-worry-they-could-be-worse/ [statnews.com]

                Pretty much everything you said is wrong, I am just posting that for example.

                Eg, nothing to prevent boosters? How about original antigenic sin? Or that the FDA has wanted every single PEGylated drug to be checked for anti-PEG antibody response exactly because that prevented repeated dosing. Just one more glasring blind spot among many regarding these vaccines.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, @02:09AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, @02:09AM (#1139635)

                  Same article

                  Not everyone in the conversation is convinced there will be a problem, though.

                  Vineet Menachery is a coronavirus expert at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, one of the smallish community of researchers who were studying coronaviruses before the Covid-19 pandemic hit. He noted that the SARS-2 spike protein — the protein that projects from the virus’ surface, giving it the appearance of wearing a crown — doesn’t have as much wiggle room to change as the hemagglutinin proteins that sit atop of flu viruses.

                  Topham is not alone in speculating that an original Covid vaccine with a booster targeting variant viruses could, in fact, lead to a stronger immune response.

                  “You might actually end up with an immune response that is broader,” said Florian Krammer, a professor of vaccinology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York.

                  But that is ok. You just keep pivoting to wherever you see an opening. Plus everyone can drop links too https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-34171-7/ [nature.com]

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, @11:43AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, @11:43AM (#1139779)

                    How is that contradictory to the fact you see weak immune response to S2?

                    No one knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean we should use blind faith instead of science.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:41AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:41AM (#1139344)

            Then there is this problem:

            > Injected Covid-19 vaccines don’t appear to elicit much of an antibody response in the mucosa, says Michal Tal, an immunologist at Stanford University and team lead of the Stanford Saliva Study—an effort to track antibodies that are secreted in saliva from people who have been vaccinated. Many people who have been naturally infected with Covid-19 seem to create a mucosal immune response early in the infection, but for those relying on a vaccine to build their immunity, an intranasal vaccine may provide a necessary IgA supplement to their systemic immunity.

            https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-scientists-are-working-intranasal-vaccines-combat-covid-19-180977478/ [smithsonianmag.com]

            Unlike natural infection, there is currently no known mechanism by which vaccination can prevent you from getting infected and transmitting the virus to someone else.

  • (Score: 0, Insightful) by js290 on Monday April 19, @02:25AM (27 children)

    by js290 (14148) on Monday April 19, @02:25AM (#1139205)
    Takes 2 weeks for my immune system to stop attacking the skin on my elbow (psoriasis) after consuming brown rice or sorghum (or anything contaminated by either). If my immune system can be confused by food proteins, it's possible it can be confused by synthetic proteins (mRNA).

    Vax, like any other medication, will help some, harm some, and neutral to others. With damage liability protection, there is no incentive for vax mfg to create meta tests to determine how an individual will react. Vax works at the population level, i.e. on average, not necessarily on the individual.

    Most I met are unaware of the mRNA (synthetic) component, i.e., novelty of the technology.

    When I tell them to look about that, they grow even more concerned and don't feel as crazy any more -- but still afraid to admit it out loud.

    3/

    — Harry Crane (@HarryDCrane) February 15, 2021 [twitter.com]

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 19, @03:06AM (21 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday April 19, @03:06AM (#1139213) Journal

      mRNA vaccines aren't exactly new though. The idea's been around at least since the 90s.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 5, Funny) by PartTimeZombie on Monday April 19, @03:18AM (18 children)

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @03:18AM (#1139220)

        Nope.

        Some guy took the time to post on Twitter about it, so it must be legit.

        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 19, @03:46AM (15 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday April 19, @03:46AM (#1139242) Journal

          So what do we do to counter this flood of disinformation?

          Soylent doesn't have a working noetic immune system. The underlying assumptions behind how this place is run made RWNJ takeover not only possible but inevitable. Once the signal to noise ratio drops low enough, no amount of truth or correctness or good-faith posters can fix it, and I am getting fucking tired of trying.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 0, Touché) by js290 on Monday April 19, @03:59AM (3 children)

            by js290 (14148) on Monday April 19, @03:59AM (#1139247)

            the noise is the commentary on here w/o reading the Twitter thread...

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday April 19, @08:38AM (2 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @08:38AM (#1139316) Journal

              the noise is the commentary on here w/o reading the Twitter thread...

              Why do I need to read the entire crap when I got the "spike protein", the one made by a statistics professor (one that can't do it, so it teaches others how)?
              Ok, I've done it. I want back my 40 secs reading those 6 comments.

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
              • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by js290 on Monday April 19, @02:27PM (1 child)

                by js290 (14148) on Monday April 19, @02:27PM (#1139384)

                "Wittgenstein's ruler: Unless you have confidence in the ruler's reliability, if you use a ruler to measure a table you may also be using the table to measure the ruler." - Nassim Nicholas Taleb

                — Nassim Nicholas Taleb's Wisdom (@TalebWisdom) April 9, 2020 [twitter.com]

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:03PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:03PM (#1139491)

                  Why not libraries of Congress or football fields? That's the standard measure.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:54AM (10 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:54AM (#1139259)

            The only thing that works in the long term is teaching people how to evaluate the statements that they encounter and to do what you can to stick to reliable sources. At the end of the day, arguing with people and presenting counterarguments does very little if the person you're trying to convince is a lousy thinker.

            • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 19, @06:06AM (9 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday April 19, @06:06AM (#1139285) Journal

              Then we have already lost the battle. Too many people simply do not think, and a site like this built on the naive assumption that everyone posts in good faith and all posts are equally meritorious was doomed from the start to decay messily into a cesspool of idiocy...

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by nostyle on Monday April 19, @08:15AM (4 children)

                by nostyle (11497) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @08:15AM (#1139313) Journal

                Do not regard it as a battle. Rather think of it as an exercise in Zen.

                If there were no misinformation and stupidity on this site, there would never be a need to post. Hell, much of what I post is only half-right due to the deficiencies of my understanding and perspective. I browse here to try to expand those things, and post when I see others struggling or grossly misbehaving. When replies to my posts are valid corrections, I am educated. When they are not, I try to defend my posts for the sake of truth.

                The wankers who mislead and purvey propaganda do not perceive the damage they do. They imagine that they can "win" something in the deal, when the simple truth is that we will all exit this de facto graveyard sometime in the next few decades, having only the memory of what we have helped build to console us in the world beyond - whatever that might entail.

                The injury caused by nut jobs is limited by the fact that many people actually do use their brains and are able to filter out the noise. But if there is no "good faith" signal left to detect, then the site will devolve into a nut job echo-chamber, at which time, I would probably stop stopping by. Lord knows I've been seriously weighing that option ever since the self-appointed hall monitor started his holy quest.

                So, dear Azuma, struggle on. Your efforts are not unappreciated.

                --
                OBTW, is the "funny" mod supposed to mean "ha ha" funny or "weird" funny?

                • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:52AM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:52AM (#1139338)

                  Your sentiment is echoed here. I post AC for deeply considered sociological reasons (I might be wrong, but ideally I want my personality and authority to be ignored in favour of the worth of my contributions). It is indeed zen practice at times. It is not fighting the good fight, per se; it is being the good that is sought.

                  When replies to my posts are valid corrections, I am educated. When they are not, I try to defend my posts for the sake of truth.

                  Thank you. If only everyone here were so!

                  • (Score: 1) by nostyle on Monday April 19, @05:09PM

                    by nostyle (11497) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @05:09PM (#1139432) Journal

                    Thank you for the validation. My own postings skew about 10:1 AC for similar reasons. I only log in to give a shout out or get in your face about things I consider critical issues.

                    The rest of the time, it seems more civilized to let my commentary be appreciated or ignored as the public sees fit without conflating the ideas with identity. There is mighty wisdom in the consensus view, which is well captured in the SN moderation system, mod-bombers notwithstanding. I find efforts to combat that defect vain, ineffectual, condescending and conducive only to lowering the signal-to-noise ratio. Every one here has been around the block a time or two and knows how to assess the value of AC posts irrespective of their ratings. To imagine otherwise is to expose one's own inflated self-opinion.

                    --
                    Clowns to the left of me / jokers to the right / here I am / stuck in the middle with you / [genius.com]

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:05PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:05PM (#1139493)

                    > Your sentiment is echoed here. I post AC for deeply considered sociological reasons

                    Fuck yeah! Me too.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:45PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:45PM (#1139571)

                      sociological != sociopathic

              • (Score: 4, Informative) by istartedi on Monday April 19, @08:38AM

                by istartedi (123) on Monday April 19, @08:38AM (#1139317) Journal

                Slash-like moderation is the worst system there is, except for all the others. You just can't compare a site like this to reddit or Twitter for sheer, unbridled idiocy and hive-mind thinking.

                You might have to wade through some shit here. In other places, you are drowning in it. I've had quite a few thoughts about how the moderation and posting here vs. other places works, and I've been thinking about doing a long journal about it; thanks for reminding me.

              • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday April 19, @08:47AM

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @08:47AM (#1139318) Journal

                Then we have already lost the battle.

                But of course we already have lost the battle.
                It's called "Bullshit asymmetry" - an infinite amount of bullshit can exists for anything factual. And that's just the static side of the thing, if you want dynamics look for "Gish gallop".

                It will take time for the BS to decay and for people to start valuing the factual again. You can take solace in the fact that the world didn't start and will not end with USofA, the latest to rediscover "My ignorance is as good as your knowledge".

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
              • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday April 19, @10:17AM

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @10:17AM (#1139334) Journal
                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:36PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:36PM (#1139388)

                A lot of that is incentive. There's not much point in thinking about public policy as you're not going to be presented with politicians that are going to represent a broad range of possibilities and even if one does represent it during the elections, they'll discard it as soon as they're in office. Not to mention how virtually everything is rigged to hide the truth from even those willing to put in the time and effort to be informed, the information just isn't out there in any meaningful quantity.

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:39AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:39AM (#1139254)

          Here [nih.gov] is the first used of an mRNA vaccine using lipid nanoparticles in 1989!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:07PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:07PM (#1139495)

            And look what happened. Disaster!

      • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday April 19, @05:20AM

        by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday April 19, @05:20AM (#1139272)

        Not just the idea, but long grueling experimentation. You can see that in the teardown report on the Pfizer vaccine at berthub.eu. We all know what a 1.0 product looks like, and this emphatically is refined engineering.

      • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday April 19, @06:21AM

        by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday April 19, @06:21AM (#1139292)

        Not new, and not scary. As safe as legacy vaccines are, I'm delighted to have something with the laser precision of the mRNA vaccines that contains no virus, dead or alive.

        A few seconds in Google got me to a Phase I/II human trial that found an anti-cancer mRNA vaccine to be safe, in 2008. It was a really small sample but that's how far back we have data.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:21AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:21AM (#1139221)

      It's not confused by food products. You fucking trained it to have an autistic retard freakout whenever it sees the most minor differences in something. Oh, uh....

    • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday April 19, @10:23AM (3 children)

      by shrewdsheep (5215) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @10:23AM (#1139335)

      Medication works at the population level, i.e. on average, not necessarily on the individual.

      FTFY, this is trade-off always: are we better off allowing the use of this drug or not, on average. The paper pushers at the drug agencies are evaluating precisely this and nothing else. Individualized medicine is in the making but not quite there yet.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by js290 on Monday April 19, @02:21PM (2 children)

        by js290 (14148) on Monday April 19, @02:21PM (#1139380)
        individualized medicine...

        In conditions of complexity (uncertainty), people radically overestimate the effect of action and underestimate the value of doing nothing (@nntaleb [twitter.com]'s via negativa).

        — sᴛᴀʀᴛᴜᴘ ᴅᴀᴇᴍᴏɴ • net (@startupdaemon) November 25, 2017 [twitter.com]

        To express the trade-off from iatrogenics in a simple heuristic:

        Take no medicine that does not make you live longer.#antifragile [twitter.com]

        — Nassim Nicholas Taleb (@nntaleb) August 26, 2019 [twitter.com]

        direct-to-consumer marketing of pharma has been a big mistake...

        "Pharma is better at invending diseases for its existing treatments, than treatments for existing diseases"
        Bed of Procrustes https://t.co/LpTP6ga1WV [t.co]

        — Nassim Nicholas Taleb (@nntaleb) July 21, 2019 [twitter.com]

        • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday April 19, @02:49PM (1 child)

          by shrewdsheep (5215) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @02:49PM (#1139394)

          While I agree with the general sentiment (individualized medicine is overrated) there is at least one example where it saves even lives: side effects of cancer chemotherapy. Genetic testing can prevent severe toxicity of these treatments for susceptible individuals, thereby saving lives for some and improving efficacy for others.

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:58AM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:58AM (#1139209)

    WO2020060606

    Here is the patent for Microsoft 1. WO2020060606 - CRYPTOCURRENCY SYSTEM
    USING BODY ACTIVITY DATA

    Look at the patent number, literally, "world order 2020 666." This from the
    same guy who is publicly saying he wants to put microchip tracking on every
    human on earth to prove you have been vaccinated, to allow you to buy or
    sell.. Bill Gates needs to Beg God for forgiveness. Science with out Gods
    standards is propelling humanity towards a calamity of biblical proportions.
    Even if Bill repents, Elon Musk has made and is rolling out a 5g satellite
    grid around the whole earth and brain chips. This is not a joke, this is
    some fucked up shit..

    - Revelation 13:16:
    And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to
    receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

    - Revelation 14:9:
    And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man
    worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or
    in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
    which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he
    shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
    angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

    #=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#

    MAKE AMERICA LOBOTOMIZED AGAIN
    -------------------------------
    The Untold Story of JFK's Sister, Rosemary Kennedy, and Her Disastrous Lobotomy
    https://people.com/politics/untold-story-of-rosemary-kennedy-and-her-disastrous-lobotomy/ [people.com]

    The Forgotten Story Of Rosemary Kennedy, Who Was Lobotomized So That JFK Could Succeed
    https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-kennedy-lobotomy [allthatsinteresting.com]

    The Truth About Rosemary Kennedy's Lobotomy
    A never-before-seen photo surfaces of the forgotten Kennedy, who, after a disastrous
    lobotomy, was rarely heard from again
    https://people.com/books/rosemary-kennedy-the-truth-about-her-lobotomy/ [people.com]

    When Rosemary was 23 years of age, doctors told her father that a form of psychosurgery
    known as a lobotomy would help calm her mood swings and stop her occasional violent
    outbursts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy#Lobotomy [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Monday April 19, @03:17AM (7 children)

      by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @03:17AM (#1139218)

      This site is getting weird and not in a good way.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:07AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:07AM (#1139311)

        wait a minute.....

        lobotomy, zombie.... woo ooo is there a connection here?

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by c0lo on Monday April 19, @08:50AM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @08:50AM (#1139320) Journal

        Yeah, the amount of brains is dwindling to the point of not being enough to sustain even a part time zombie.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday April 19, @02:22PM (4 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Monday April 19, @02:22PM (#1139381)

        I consider it a sign of the site's maturity that it's getting people that are doing the equivalent of the GNAA nests that would form back in the day on the Green Site.

        --
        The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday April 19, @08:54PM (3 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @08:54PM (#1139505)

          The site's maturity is measured by the amount of spam nonsense that appears?

          You might be right, but I don't have to like it.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Monday April 19, @10:31PM (2 children)

            by Thexalon (636) on Monday April 19, @10:31PM (#1139538)

            The site's maturity is measured by the amount of spam nonsense that appears?

            Spam is an indication the spammer believes there's enough of an audience to be worth the trouble, so yes.

            --
            The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
            • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday April 19, @10:51PM

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @10:51PM (#1139554)

              I wish you were wrong but I don't think you are.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:18PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:18PM (#1139563)

              Not really. This site allows automated posting and spam is a shotgun approach. On top of that, many times the spam postings aren't actually to garner attention from people, but to improve the SEO and visibility of the search. On top of that, you have the "doing it for the lulz" where the audience doesn't really matter but instead the dopamine hit of posting or seeing the machinations of the one person who responds does. Even a brand new forum put up on a VM with no users will soon find itself filled with spam and trolling and other crap. So no, it isn't that there is "enough of an audience" because it isn't about the audience.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:23AM (16 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:23AM (#1139226)

    Our immune system will gradually recognize the spike protein (produced by the vaccine) as an intruder.
    In response to recognizing this foreign spike protein, the bodies' immune cells will cooperate to start producing protective proteins, called antibodies, to protect you against the virus. If you're infected, these antibodies bind to the spike proteins of the virus, making it difficult or impossible for the virus to bind and gain access to our cells. (When inside, the virus hijacks our cellular machinery to mass multiply. It's an effective parasite).
    "It's around the two-week mark that the immune system is producing antibodies at levels that block infections," said Camero

    There's no WHY here explaining WHY it takes 2 weeks. This more like a IT JUST DOES kind of explanation. Where's the fucking WHY?

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 19, @03:48AM (11 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday April 19, @03:48AM (#1139243) Journal

      It's right there in the last sentence, idiot!

      The immune system has several moving parts and active, antibody-mediated immunity is only one of them. It's also the one that takes longest to ramp up. Meanwhile the body uses more general mechanisms--inflammation, fever, etc--as a sort of nonspecific catch-all to hopefully give itself enough time to produce the exact antibodies needed to take on whatever is specifically attacking it at the moment.

      If you don't know, FIND OUT. You are on the internet for God's sake! This information is available!

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday April 19, @06:36AM (9 children)

        by hemocyanin (186) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @06:36AM (#1139296) Journal

        I agree with AC above and am not AC above, though I made a similar complaint recently.

        You are describing the what, not the why. The what is that it takes two weeks for the body to gear up. That's not the why though. "Gear up" or "gradually recognize the spike protein" is a shorthand blackbox in which the why is contained, but never opened.

        In the last 5-10 years we've seen incredible degradation in the quality of headlines, all to make them more clickbaity. "Here's why ....." "What you need to know ...." "Five things you need to know ..." Usually, deleting the offending verbiage makes the headline more accurate.

        As for the RTFG quip, the headline promised something it didn't deliver if one has to go on independent search outside the contents of the article.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:48AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:48AM (#1139319)

          Why? Because building immunity is a process of responding to something, it does not magically appear out of nowhere. You're basically asking why a complex, multi-step process takes time.

          Why two weeks and not two days, two hours, two minutes or two seconds? No idea, apparently that is the time a human body needs to do this.

          • (Score: 2) by VLM on Monday April 19, @01:36PM

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @01:36PM (#1139358)

            Why two weeks and not two days, two hours, two minutes or two seconds? No idea, apparently that is the time a human body needs to do this.

            It is a VERY slow biochemical process. Interestingly slow. Compared to how fast an allergic person can react to peanut proteins, for example.

            My personal theory is its evolved to be the slowest process in the innards to keep autoimmune diseases relatively more under control.

            If it were too much faster, then "normal" "healthy" innards might have enough time to start reacting against weird wheat proteins in our food and stuff like that. Too much slower and you're just pointlessly sick for a longer amount of time. So it gradually evolved to be "just about the right speed on very long term average"

            Trying to ascribe will and purpose to evolutionary results is risky but in this case it seems reasonable-ish.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:50AM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:50AM (#1139321)

          You are describing the what, not the why.

          I have an explanation for the lazy fucks like you: Because GOD. Now go, fuck off if you can't be arsed to find this out.

          You are worse than a child. Detailed explanations are neither for your level of competence or for some fucking headline. If your level of understanding is "2+2=4 QED I knows maths .. what is this topology thing??" then don't expect someone to feed you 10 years of schooling and then another 5 years of bleeding edge research to satisfy your laziness.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:05AM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:05AM (#1139341)

            but...but 2+2=5, everyone knows that!

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:22PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:22PM (#1139353)

              Public health experts at Harvard have successfully argued that 2 + 2 does equal five.

              https://mobile.twitter.com/HarvardChanSPH/status/1300108564032360448 [twitter.com]

              • (Score: 0, Troll) by hemocyanin on Monday April 19, @03:35PM (1 child)

                by hemocyanin (186) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 19, @03:35PM (#1139413) Journal

                Everything=Nothing (for random and arbitrary definitions of "everything" and "nothing")

                James Lindsay kicked this off: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/08/2-plus-2-never-equals-5/ [newdiscourses.com]

                I proceeded to take this thought from my messages to the public in the form of a “Woke Mini,” a line of satirical quips roughly imitating dictionary entries with the goal of exposing and highlighting the inanity of the Critical Social Justice worldview. One of them is for the entry “2+2=4,” and it reads:

                “2+2=4: A perspective in white, Western mathematics that marginalizes other possible values.”

                The background for the woke on this issue: (same link)

                In some sense, the postmodern understanding is “2+2 can equal whatever people want it to equal, and we should be very skeptical of the idea that it equals 4 because so much political dominance is already built into that answer and how it is obtained.” To paraphrase a key point of Michel Foucault, the postmodernist avatar, whether or not a truth claim is actually true or false misses the point that a political process leads to making that determination. For the postmodernists, and their ideological descendants, it is only being radically skeptical of this political process that is of relevance, thus arriving at the formulation I gave. This is, of course, what the activists in the present case are doing, being radically skeptical of the alleged “politics” of mathematics when the whole program is viewed as a “cultural process.”

                This particular radical effort, incidentally, is taken further by the new, more critical (as in, based in Critical Theory) ideology that has adopted postmodern tools, which would take the additional step of classifying a “hegemonic” solution as being indicative of some underlying systemic oppression, particularly exclusion of “other ways of knowing” (like “lived experience”) and “other knowledges” that might say otherwise. That is, in the conceptual operating system underlying Critical Social Justice (i.e., Woke) thought, 2+2 might sometimes equal 4, but we have to understand that accepting this as an objective statement of basic arithmetic contributes to a system of oppression that, in other corners of its existence, oppresses racial, gender, and sexual minorities, women, the overweight, the disabled, and people outside of the “Western context,” which is accused of accepting statements like “2+2=4” in an “uncritical” way (which means without using the favored Critical Theory of the relevant moment).

                The point is to destroy rationality, sow confusion, and substitute meaningful understanding of the world with the will and judgment of the woke -- the goal is oppression. Given Harvard Public Health has succumbed to this ideology, anything it says or claims can only be taken as dubious, and one must search for the motive behind what they are saying, because they don't care if fact claims are true, only whether they further an agenda. This is otherwise known as lies, misdirection, and propaganda and Harvard Public Health clearly isn't interest in truth, only in what truthiness is useful for a political purpose.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:49PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:49PM (#1139572)

                  You have it backwards. Conservatives have torn down the value of education, Republicans have managed to monetize most of the public education process, all in the name of greed and power. The goal is oppression?

                  No, the goal is education, but at a certain point trying to educate ornery old ostriches becomes a losing battle. So like a child we tell you "because we said so!" Want to be treated like a fully funcitonal adult? Grow up.

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday April 19, @01:47PM

            I learned homology. So what's this cohomology thing? Professor back then told me it was just the dual, don't worry about it. But there seems to be a lot hiding in that "co".

        • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday April 20, @02:38AM

          by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday April 20, @02:38AM (#1139648) Homepage

          It Depends. At a guess, with wild virus it might be a mix of dose and replication rate. The faster it replicates, the more goosing your immune system gets.

          With canine parvovirus, low-titer vaccines can take up to two weeks to kick in. High-titer vaccine (there is only one) can have a definite immunity effect within 24 hours (fast enough to save exposed puppies, before this fast-replicator can get in gear -- it can kill within 72 hours).

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:16PM (#1139498)

        If you don't know, FIND OUT. You are on the internet for God's sake! This information is available!

        That's why I located and read TFA (joking - I just skimmed the summary). I was hoping to find out WHY IT TAKES 2 WEEKS FOR THE COVID VACCINES TO KICK IN.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday April 19, @05:14AM (3 children)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday April 19, @05:14AM (#1139269)

      Things to Google are "T follicular helper cell", "germinal center", and "somatic hypermutation".

      Your body launches a selective breeding program where B cells with more effective antibodies are allowed to reproduce and mutate further until a set of really good matches are found.

      Selective breeding programs can take many generations. Fortunately there's room for quite a few generations in two weeks.

      It's a delight to read about the immune system. Off topic, it keeps around a few of the second-rate antibodies instead of completely standardizing on the best ones. In practice, that means that when a mutated pathogen comes along there may already be an antibody that fits it.

      • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by krishnoid on Monday April 19, @05:39AM (1 child)

        by krishnoid (1156) on Monday April 19, @05:39AM (#1139278)

        Almost sounds like it was intelligently designed. In contrast, most whole adult humans couldn't come up with a breeding program and storage plan that complex in two weeks if their life depended on it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:54AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @08:54AM (#1139323)

          Yeah, trial and error solutions are all intelligently designed. That's why your eyeball is a fucking mess that would be better designed by a 5 year old "engineer". If we only had better eyes, like an octopus... why did that one get an adult for designer??

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @10:54AM (#1139340)

        Ooo thanks for the query terms! Off to read until daybreak!

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:52AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:52AM (#1139245)

    Curious that Pfizer/Moderna recommend the second dose after two weeks, but Astra Zenaca's recommends the second dose after three months, based on trial data.

    Can any bio nerds enlighten us?

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:57AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @04:57AM (#1139260)

      There are two points to respond to there. First is that AstraZeneca and Oxford did not collaborate on a "traditional vaccine." The fact it uses a Adenoviral vector does not make it such. The second is that ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 is partially limited by their vector. I've posted about it before, but essentially there are two parts to the vaccine, the payload and the vector. Upon getting the shot, you develop immunity to both the payload and the vector. Subsequent exposures to vaccine mean that the immune system reacts to the vector before it can deploy the payload, which limits the effectiveness of subsequent uses. Therefore, they require more time between injections to allow your body to lose its response to the vector before it is used again. They also probably planned on the increased time to take advantage of the boosting effect and other complicated considerations.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday April 19, @06:11AM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday April 19, @06:11AM (#1139287)

      It's three or four weeks between doses, not two, but that doesn't answer your question.

      The too-simple answer is that Pfizer and Moderna recommend that interval because that's what they tested. The answer behind the answer is that they knew that lives were being lost every day the trials continued, so they picked the shortest interval that made any sense to them so as to get results sooner. They sure weren't going to try the 2-6 month spacing of Shingrix!

      If we get rigorous data, I will not be surprised at all if longer intervals for the mRNA vaccines work at least as well as what's recommended today. Until then, it's like what the aerospace people say: "Test what you fly, fly what you test".

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:39PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:39PM (#1139359)

    not sure why, but i feel better after eating some toast with a generous layer of peanut butter.
    so far i have not seen any A.I. thrown at the problem correlating national diet/cusine with amount of covid infection rate. maybe, just maybe, there's something in the food a large part of a countries population consumes often/alot that is detrimal to covid ... maybe?
    for example: central europe: lots of cow products. usa would explode without coffee but real sugar is considered bad. japan: dunno, lots of seafood and monosodium glutamte? india: tea? brasil? etc etc.

    also, aren't modern "after the fact" rabies shots mRNA based (two weeks to rabies?)

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:56PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @01:56PM (#1139366)

    With all the new telemetry flooding in from the vaccines, it's no wonder MSFT's servers are a bit backed up. But if it's taking two weeks they might want to farm out some of the workload to AWS.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Rupert Pupnick on Monday April 19, @02:51PM (1 child)

    by Rupert Pupnick (7277) on Monday April 19, @02:51PM (#1139396) Journal

    Why are people who have been infected and recovered from COVID recommended for vaccination? In the case of a neighbor, he was told to get his first shot only a month after recovery. I always thought that an actual full blown infection was the best "vaccination" you could get. Is there something different about the virus or the vaccine that makes vaccination of the previously infected good public health policy? Is it standard operating procedure? Or something else?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:58PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @02:58PM (#1139397)

    My immune system is so binford it causes rust. No vaccine needed.

  • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:25PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @03:25PM (#1139409)

    As others have pointed out, this is not a vaccine, it is an experimental form of genetic therapy being misrepresented as something it is not in order to expedite the infliction of this 'cure' upon an uninformed population, which is a violation of law, medicine, and science.

    Also, it does not create a 'herd immunity', the immunity is temporary.

    The Russian vaccine, by the way, IS a vaccine. Just sayin'.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:26PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 19, @11:26PM (#1139565)

      The Russian vaccine, probably a reference to Sputnik V, and the two mRNA vaccines are almost identical in payload. The only real difference between the three is what vector they used to deliver said payload. Sputnik V doesn't even provide herd immunity by your definition because its immunity is only temporary as well. Your Russian vaccine is just as much "genetic therapy" as the mRNA and other Ad vector vaccines.

    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Thursday April 22, @02:01AM

      by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 22, @02:01AM (#1140856) Journal

      Not a biologist, but according to what I've read (and I checked offline sources that can't be changed on-the-fly, just to be sure) the mRNA vaccine isn't gene therapy and it does essentially the same thing as the adenovirus-based vaccines.

      A normal virus hijacks the body's cells to produce more copies of the virus.
      The adenovirus in J&J, Sputnik V, or Astrazeneca vaccines hijacks the body's cells to produce copies of the covid spike protein, which trains the immune system.
      mRNA vaccines also hijack the body's cells to make the covid spike protein. Except the cell's work is already half done, since in the viral-hijacking scenario the mRNA has to be made by the cell as part of the larger process.

      Whatever was in the vaccine (adenovirus or mRNA) gets used up and disappears from the body after a short time. (Also note that the mRNA vaccines are the ones that need to be stored at very low temperatures)

      Injecting the spike protein on its own apparently doesn't trigger enough of an immune response, if you were wondering why they don't do that instead..

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