Windows 11 will officially support Intel 8th Gen Coffee Lake or Zen 2 CPUs and up, leaving behind millions of PCs that were sold during the launch of Windows 10.
[...] After much confusion last week, Microsoft attempted to explain its hardware requirements again yesterday, and it sounds like the main driver behind these changes is security. Coupled with Microsoft's hardware requirements is a push to enable a more modern BIOS (UEFI) that supports features like Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 (Trusted Platform Module).
If your machine does not have a dedicated TPM chip, your CPU may have an equivalent built-in. Specifically, Intel integrates Platform Trust Technology (Intel PTT) in its modern processors, while AMD uses something called PSP fTPM. Many motherboard manufacturers disable these by default, but you can enable them from within your motherboard's BIOS. Every BIOS is different, so we would recommend reading your motherboard's manual first. For example, Gigabyte stored the AMD PSP fTPM setting under Advanced CPU Settings.
In short, you do not necessarily need to rush out and purchase a TPM chip to run Windows 11 on your desktop machine. Hopefully, Microsoft clarifies this in its Windows 11 system requirements at some stage, because Intel and AMD do not readily market their PTT and PSP fTPM technologies as TPM 2.0 alternatives. Microsoft has also released its inaugural Windows 11 Insider Preview build and has updated its processor requirements to accommodate the Zen 1 and 7th Generation Core families.
See also: WhyNotWin11: A tool that is much better than Microsoft at detailing why a PC is not Windows 11 compatible
Users get Windows 11 running on a Lumia 950 XL and Raspberry Pi 4
Windows 11: Microsoft's Director of OS Security explains the tough CPU requirements for Win 11
How to bypass the Windows 11 TPM 2.0 requirement
Original Submission #1 Original Submission #2 Original Submission #3
Related Stories
The KDE community has an outreach campaign encouraging the use of the Plasma desktop by people with older, but usable, laptops. Vista10 support will come to an end and Vista11 has been designed not to run on many still viable models of computer due to several factors including Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) requirements centered around TPM-2.0. GNU/Linux can not only keep the old system working, it can improve its performance, ease of use, and general security. KDE Plasma can be part of that.
Even if you agree to this tech extortion now, in a few years time, they will do it again as they have done many times in the past.
But things don't have to be this way...
Upgrade the smart way! Keep the machine you've got and switch to Linux and Plasma.
Linux can give new life to your laptop. Combined with KDE's Plasma desktop, you get all the advantages of the safety, stability and hi tech of Linux, with all the features of a beautiful, modern and powerful graphic environment.
Their campaign page covers where and how beginners can get help, what the differences are, the benefits gained, and more.
[Editor's Comment: This is obviously a KDE/Plasma centric promotion - which doesn't mean that it is bad but there are lots of other options too. Which Linux OS and desktop would you recommend for someone wanting to make the move from Windows to Linux? Which are the best for a beginner, and which desktops provide the most intuitive interface for someone who has never sat down in front of a Linux computer before?--JR]
Previously:
(2025) Microsoft is Digging its Own Grave With Windows 11, and It Has to Stop
(2023) The Wintel Duopoly Plans to Send 240 Million PCs to the Landfill
(2023) Two Security Flaws in the TPM 2.0 Specs Put Cryptographic Keys at Risk
(2022) Report Claims Almost Half of Systems are Ineligible for Windows 11 Upgrades
(2021) Windows 11 Will Leave Millions of PCs Behind, and Microsoft is Struggling to Explain Why
(2019) Microsoft's Ongoing Tactics Against Competitors Explained, Based on its Own Documents
(2016) Windows 10 Anniversary Update to Require TPM 2.0 Module
This story presents a roundup of a selection of Microsoft Windows 11 prerelease story submissions. Included are the following:
- Windows 11 To Only Support One Intel 7th Gen CPU, No AMD Zen CPUs
- Why Windows 11 Has Such Strict Hardware Requirements, According to Microsoft
- Microsoft Won't Stop You Installing Windows 11 on Older PCs
- Start or Please Stop? Power users mourn features lost in Windows 11 'simplification'
If Windows isn't your cup of tea, then please feel free to skip this story; another story will appear presently. Otherwise, please see the rest of the story below the fold:
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:36AM (22 children)
This is definitely the year of Linux desktop.
Hehehe, kinda, sorta, funny...ish, eh?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:48AM (6 children)
And so very ironic that Microsoft may be providing the final shove to make Joe Public snap out of the remond-cocaine coma and switch. But at the same time, the claws of embrace are being extended within 'windows' to linux and android, maybe even mac one day. Maybe MS are betting on boosting new PC sales, forcing enterprises to upgrade, taking a leaf from Apple - version N+1, now buy all new or die.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @12:37PM (5 children)
Chromebooks, smart phones, and ipads have eaten away at MS Windows dominance. They are the alternative, not Linux.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:32PM (4 children)
Microsoft could have had the installer pop up a dialog informing users that they should check their BIOS settings to see if it's possible to enable the TPU or equivalent, but that wouldn't have forced the sale of millions of OEM licenses. ?p> But there are years to go before the current OS is abandonware, so what's the big hurry? Multiple desktops? Had that as a powertool in The indows 95. Tiled windows? Right on the main menu in Windows 3.0, etc., along with cascading windows. In jut 2 megs of ram on a 286.
In 2030 everyone will be rushing to upgrade to Windows 30 - with the Start menu replaced with desktop folders containing links to your work programs and data, games, utilities, etc. The "all new Program and Data Manager." With a default teal background like OS 2 2.0.
Microsoft needs the OEM license sales, the OEMs need Microsoft. to sell new computers. If they could get everyone on the same upgrade/obsolescence cycle as smartphones, they would. Because they are not your friends any more than Google , Facebook, or Amazon. Or most politicians.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:58PM (2 children)
I was going to contradict you, but yeah:
https://bgr.com/tech/fuchsia-vs-android-samsung-support-google-mobile-os-5925597/ [bgr.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by captain normal on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:06PM (1 child)
"Fuchsia is an open source effort to create a production-grade operating system that prioritizes security, updatability, and performance. Fuchsia is a foundation for developers to create long-lasting products and experiences across a broad range of devices."
https://fuchsia.dev/ [fuchsia.dev]
Sounds an awfully like the drivel coming out of Redmond and Mountain View.
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:13PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:20PM
This has nothing to do with Microsoft giving corporate customers new OS, and everything to do with greedy Jews and their planned obsolescence colluding to force new hardware on everybody whether or not they want to spend money on the upgrade. It's like another Windows Vista, one of them in-between dogshit releases that required the top of the line (at the time) to run at all.
These are the same Jews, by the way, who are always trying to shove climate change alarmism up everybody's ass, while at the same time scam pandemic masks are gumming up sewer lines and clogging up the ocean. Oh, but your old phone works just fine and you spent an hour disabling all its crapware and tweaking it to your specific needs? You don't want to upgrade? Too bad, we just killed your battery life and made it slow as dogshit with a "firmware update" it never needed. Now live in the pod, eat the bugs, and pay climate tax because climate change, Goyim!
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:54AM (9 children)
Which Linux is the correct Linux?
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @05:14AM
OpenBSD.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @05:19AM
Windows Subsystem for Linux
(Score: 4, Informative) by turgid on Sunday July 04 2021, @09:43AM
Slackware.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:16AM (2 children)
Linux Torvalds
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @02:43AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @10:23AM
Puh-lease. Lennart's employer got bought out by the original three letter acronym.
IBM/Pottyring.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @07:36PM
Ubuntu is used on AWS
(Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:16PM (1 child)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @01:44AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @11:56AM (4 children)
Has been for my family for five years. Sure, Windows came with the PC, and you can reboot back into it but no one does.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by kazzie on Sunday July 04 2021, @06:34PM
The mountain of updates that greets anyone who'd reboot into Windows is probably enough to discourage repeat offenders.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:42PM (2 children)
Been gone since 1999: never have looked back at the steaming pile of
shitWindows i left behind.--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Acabatag on Monday July 05 2021, @12:04PM (1 child)
1999 is an interesting time to abandon Windows, because the first really viable and robust desktop Windows was Windows 2000. Some of us were experimenting with various desktop OSes back at the turn of the century. Windows 98 and ME were unstable and really just GUI layers on top of DOS with a certain amount of a 32 bit extensions stretched over it, similar in some regards to DesqView and other 32 bit DOS extenders that allowed multitasking. There had been NT 4.0, which was good enough in some regards though it had ugly compromises that made it a step down from 3.51.
When Windows 2000 came out, it relieved a lot of pressure and provided a viable desktop alternative. Many of us went to W2K.
I personally abandoned linux entirely for quite awhile and started playing with NetBSD to get my Unix fix, mostly on the Sun SPARC hardware that was becoming affordable on the second-hand market. W2K was widely seen at the time as the 'solution' that killed desktop linux.
The sweaty anti-Microsoft people coming on the scene made it easy not to look back at linux. At the time there was an anti-Microsoft for the sake of being anti-Microsoft elitism taking hold. People who seemingly embraced linux as an anti-Microsoft.
My 'fix' had mostly been using Slackware up until that point, after a few bad experiences with Red Hat. It was a natural transition to move to the init system of NetBSD. The large collection of O'Reilly 'animal' books and my BSD 4.4 printed manual set mostly documented that path to me. The Linux userland was and is a dogs breakfast of different tools brought together at the whim of whomever pulled together a 'distro' while the BSD system by then provided a complete useland released under a single CVS tag.
In a lot of ways an embrace of BSD made the most sense, and as we now know, the linux movement grew more scattered and fragmented with initiatives toward kludges and abominations like systemd and the gnome swamp.
The linux movement was becoming crowded with dorks that mostly had an anti-Microsoft as their focus. It's sad that some people let themselves ossify at that point in time and never really get past it. You have to get beyond such a reactive outlook or you just become a reactionary camp-dweller.
Personally I skipped XP for years into the new millineum because W2K and NetBSD were 'good enough' to meet my needs.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday July 05 2021, @03:47PM
Not so interesting - 2000 was NT based, meaning it sacrificed backwards compatibility with a huge amount of consumer-oriented software designed for the 9x family, without even the largely ineffective compatibility layer included with XP.
In fact that's right around the time I first moved to Linux myself - Linux + Wine offered similar levels of backwards compatibility to XP, without the horrible security, abusive copy protection, and other problems that plagued Windows. If I couldn't run all the software I wanted anyway, why would I want to stay with Windows?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:37AM (15 children)
Noooooo not TPM again
Oh good, so this is like being able to turn SecureBoot off again?
Oh, of course. God damn it.
Whew
Inexplicably vestiges of tact remain
Man, this summary has been a rollercoaster ride of emotions. Here's to hoping that somebody calls them on this continued attempted deathgrip on locking people out of the hardware they bought themselves.
Hail Eris.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:50AM (4 children)
For some, I guess. Here is Linux land, few of us care.
At some point in time, my wife will have to decide what to do when her Win7 machine dies. Maybe I can convince her to try Linux again. (does Farmville run on Linux?) If not, I'm sure the hackers will have figured out how to defeat most of Windows "security" features, including desktop advertising.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 5, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:07AM (3 children)
It's not so much whether us techies can find a way around it, as whether the normies can.
I forget who it was but I heard a rather eloquent argument about SecureBoot, about how the average consumer buys a Windows 10 machine, eventually decides they hate W10, and then when they go to install Linux on it, they realize they can't because the assholes have locked out the bootloader. Same idea.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:11AM (2 children)
And yes, I'm aware that didn't actually happen with SecureBoot (yet). With hardware whitelists and everything that has happened over the years, presumably TPM 2.0 is their latest attempt at that same old bullshit.
Can somebody explain to me what benefit there is to the *consumer* in this TPM stuff? Obviously there's a benefit to the companies like Microsoft selling the stuff, and the average consumer just eats up "it makes it more secure" as a blanket excuse to do anything.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @09:29AM (1 child)
It allows consumers to provide a certificate and have chain of trust from chipset/memory/cpu initialization through to application running, helping to ensure that every app you're running is unmodified from the presumably secure state you signed and installed it under.
In practice, it's an insecure flawed security framework that keeps you from installing what you want, helps the OS vendor and software vendors lock your software to your device or deny you access based on a signed certificate of the hardware in your system, and provides another way of reducing your privacy, anonymity, and security while not actually providing any of those touted security features. As well they provide built in obsolescence since you do not have signing privileges to any hardware in your system since in order for 'protected data paths' such as secure boot and tpm offer to work, the physical accessor of the hardware cannot be given unrestricted access to the chain of trust, or else they could subvert the chain of trust for third parties, which corporations have decided are more important than for either the personal user of the hardware or the 'fleet' use by companies, which in turn can also be bilked for thousands to millions more in licensing for buggy and flawed remote access and authentication systems which interface with tpm/secure boot for their own corporate use.
So yeah TPM/SecureBoot is just Palladium 2.0 or Clipper Chip 3.0. It's not a benefit to either of the touted end user populations (consumer or corporate) since it's inevitably backdoored for government or clandestine intelligence groups, hackers inevitably find flaws which can either allow access to the keys or show weaknesses in how the keys are generated, losing you the benefits of tpm versus 'software' OS key security, and putting you at the mercy of 'upgrade train' corporations for signed software updates that when they end leave your security devices in the same flawed condition they were when the last patch came out, often many years earlier than you'd ever consider decommissioning the hardware.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:45PM
I agree that the motivation of companies like MS is likely more corporate control of user devices (user cannot boot with unsigned drivers, DRM, etc.).
But, TPM can be useful in the free world too. Purism is using TPM to help ensure that no evil maid attack was made against your laptop with fully encrypted disk, for instance (or, search for cryptsetup tpm, for more generic instructions):
https://puri.sm/faq/what-is-tpm-and-do-i-need-it/ [puri.sm]
You can also use the TPM to e.g., store a key to decrypt an ssh private key, so that ssh key will only be able to be used from the client with the secret stored in its TPM.
https://incenp.org/notes/2020/tpm-based-ssh-key.html [incenp.org]
It is an interesting and useful extra feature to have in your computer. But, again, I share your concerns of big corp abuses.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:49AM (5 children)
Mostly nausea, like any rollercoaster.
The "technies" should be just as worried by TPM and secureboot as the "normies": when enough machines are deemed "trusted", the various cloud platforms and OS vendors can suddenly decide unstrustworthy rogue OSes like Linux aren't allowed to use the service anymore. And then, you can be as much of a techie as you want, you're stuffed with your useless OS.
For a taste of what it feels like; try to run a banking app on a rooted Android phone: most likely it will refuse to work because it's detecting that your system isn't a fully locked-down Google-controlled Android prison cell.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @09:17AM (2 children)
Just get a $100 computer for "trusted" applications and you're done.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday July 04 2021, @09:35AM (1 child)
Sadly, I already do: I have my real cellphone running AOSP, and a non-rooted shite phone I only use for my banking apps.
I fully expect my real cellphone to be able to run fewer and fewer apps until it becomes essentially useless. Likewise, I fully expect my Linux machines to slide into uselessness eventually: all it takes is browsers to refuse to render pages if they don't run in a kosher environment running on kosher hardware - or the kosher OS to block connections for non-trusted software, or the site you want to access refusing to serve pages to non-kosher browsers.
We've been lucky so far but it won't last. The dominance of Google's Chrome should be a major worry in that respect. I expect Google to flip the switch the minute they feel they can get away with it - in the name of security of course.
Does that feel like a sane digital future to you?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @07:47PM
Browsers not running stuff... nonono Just try connecting from a VPN or locking out intrusive web technologies and APIs. Captchas and blocking abound. The future is now kid.
(Score: 5, Informative) by r_a_trip on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:30PM (1 child)
Magisk didn't work? With Magisk Hide my banking app is none the wiser.
(Score: 4, Informative) by NateMich on Monday July 05 2021, @12:10AM
There will come a day when Magisk won't work. Already you're seeing where you also need to lock the bootloader for some apps to function.
It's just a matter of time before you're stuck on the official rom with a locked bootloader and no root access.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by driverless on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:16AM (3 children)
In computing, "security" is the last refuge of the scoundrel (outside computing, it's patriotism). Basically if you hear someone say something is being done for "security" then they don't have any other reason for it apart from "we're doing this, you got a problem with that?". It's never "security", it's always something else with "security" as the excuse.
Even more so in Microsoft's case, where "Windows" and "security" are words that don't even belong on the same page.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:52AM
Security v Freedom
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:34PM
At least not without an odd number of negatives.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:16PM
The mistake is believing that it has to do with the "security" of the user. Users will be "secure" like someone in prison is "secure". The only thing MS and other "security" pushers are interested in is securing more future profits.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:42AM (3 children)
Wasn't Windows 10 supposed to be the last version? Weren't we all just supposed to be doing little updates forever?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:07AM (1 child)
Yes. Or at least it was until Intel and Dell and all the others started asking Microsoft to please obsolete a lot of otherwise modern hardware so we can start selling more PC's again like in the heydays.
Then, suddenly, W10 was no longer the "last version ever" because it would have been harder to justify that W10 subversion 12.32.45 needs all these brand new, just invented today, CPU's.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:39PM
(Score: 5, Funny) by Dr Spin on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:23AM
Windows 10 supposed to be the last version? Weren't we all just supposed to be doing little updates forever?
No. You are supposed to switch to Linux - MS has been releasing tools to help you with the transition for more than a year.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:02AM
#WalkAway
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:05AM (2 children)
PC sales have been relatively flat over the last few years (excepting the bubble that resulted from last year's stay at home orders) [1].
This of course means that revenue (and profit) have been off at the majors (Dell, etc.) and that Intel's revenue (and profit) has also been flat.
Now, ponder upon that fact for a moment. What would the PC retailers, and Intel, love more than anything? Could that be to see PC sales take another big upswing?
So, given that, what is the likely hood that the vendors, and Intel, have all been suggesting to their MicroSoft contacts that if MS, with their next version of window, could just orphan a whole host of otherwise performant systems as "too old and crusty" that the result might be an upswing in PC purchases as all the mindless MS drones upgrade their systems just because MS says "your system is not new enough"?
Combine the above with the fact that the "requirement" appears to be merely arbitrary. If MS actually required a TPM, or actually utilized some number of new instructions/features only available on these newest of the new processors, then why are they "struggling to explain why"? If they had a good, technical, reason why, they'd just say so and be done. The "struggle" suggests that there is no real reason, other than to generate artificial demand for new PC's.
[1] Gartner Says Worldwide PC Shipments Declined 4.3 Percent in 4Q18 and 1.3 Percent for the Year [gartner.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Sunday July 04 2021, @06:41AM (1 child)
Less PC sales also means less license fee to Microsoft for preinstalled Windows. I don't think the PC retailers needed to convince Microsoft to make old PCs “obsolete” as soon as possible.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:20PM
Also true, but the reports for a number of years now have been that windows licensing has not been MS's cash cow anymore. The cash cow has been office licenses, and profit from azure.
So given that windows license revenue isn't their main cash cow, it is conceivable that they needed a little prodding by the vendors to get out of the "W10 is the last version, just incremental patching from here on" mindset that the broadcast at the introduction of W10.
The problem the industry has is that the rocket ship graph of performance increases from new hardware is less rocket ship shaped and more helicopter hovering over riot shaped (i.e., mostly flat, in that you don't buy an i7 xyz chip and have it be 10x the performance of your i5 pdq chip like in the heyday).
That itself let to a flattening of growth, because those who had machines no longer feel the "need" to upgrade very two years, because the two year newer CPU justis not enough of a performance boost to justify the expense and bother. And given that nearly everyone who wants a computer now has one, there's not a lot of growth from "new entrants" either.
So the industry (vendors, Intel, and yes, MS to some degree) need a way to generate an artificial "need" to upgrade. And since MS still views themselves as the center of the holy computing universe, what better way to generate artificial demand than to obsolete a whole range of plenty adequate CPU's with an arbitrary decision to only run on i7 9000+ or better CPU's. Since they think they are the center of the universe, I'm sure they think their plebes will just bend over and take it (and, sadly, a lot of the plebes likely will). But I predict that they will have an even harder time of convincing folks to upgrade to W11 than they did with the W7-W10 upgrade, where there new hardware was not required, and they practically gave W10 away for free to get folks to upgrade.
This time will be slower for them than that upgrade cycle was.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:26AM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jasassin on Sunday July 04 2021, @05:20AM (3 children)
I'm not buying new hardware for Windows 11. I just upgraded from a second gen i3 2120 to an i7 4770, and this machine is FAST! Chip shortages aren't getting any better and they are pulling this TPM 2.0 nonsense. I looked up my Asus H81M-A motherboard and even if I spent $40 on a TPM module, they're only available with TPM 1.2. There's no way Microsoft will force TPM, because if they did only new OEM computers will be running it.
I was reading somewhere we have five years of support left for Windows 10 so I'll worry about Windows 11 later, though I am an early adopter of new Windows versions (for better or worse).
If hell freezes over and they decide to go through with this CPU/TPM decision, I'll be using Linux.
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @05:39AM (1 child)
The funny thing is that if they don't relent and add support for 7th gen Intel, those processors would be orphaned to support Windows 10 and no previous or future versions.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by jasassin on Sunday July 04 2021, @05:59AM
I read somewhere (IIRC) that they added 7 gen to the compatibility list. I can't think of why 11 wouldn't run on any x64 CPU (excepting artificial obsolescence)... I'm not a programmer but I know about machine architecture compiler flags, so if they do this home/pro/enterprise Windows 11, let the Enterprise version be compiled with the anal retentive flags.
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:47PM
Hell has already frozen over: MS has been trying to disguise it, but it's there. Switch now without waiting for "excuse of the day"... do it. Do it now.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 4, Funny) by Opportunist on Sunday July 04 2021, @06:59AM (10 children)
Win10 has support until 2025. Remember what hoops you had to jump through to get Win10, and how they quickly vanished as soon as MS noticed that even bribing people to get a free OS doesn't convince them to get it?
Within a year, that TPM requirement will fall once they notice that Win11 is about as popular as foot fungus.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @12:28PM (4 children)
You mean a hoop like leaving your computer unattended for a while? Way more hoops were required NOT to get Windows 10.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:54PM (3 children)
Found this with a quick google search:
https://www.iskysoft.com/article/windows-10-problems.html [iskysoft.com]
https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-upgrade-problems-these-are-the-biggest-hassles-you-face/ [zdnet.com]
Seems like leaving it unattended is just the start of the problems.....
Go push MS shit elsewhere, thanks.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:06PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday July 05 2021, @02:52PM (1 child)
Not everyone is blessed with a 100tbit connection. Ever tried downloading a contemporary game via Steam on a 720k connection?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06 2021, @06:26PM
720k?! that's a big screen!
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:23PM (3 children)
What I wonder is if they will force upgrades to Windows 11 on everyone running a Windows 10 PC like they did with Windows 7 to Windows 10? They could deliberately break older PC's, and while everyone will be outraged and complain most will eventually fall in line like they have with every other outrage perpetrated by MS.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday July 05 2021, @03:05PM (2 children)
I see it as a market opportunity for third party tools that keep your computer from being infected with the "upgrade".
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday July 09 2021, @10:55PM (1 child)
Which Windows Security will target as malware...
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Sunday July 11 2021, @01:11AM
One more reason to disable that useless crap.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday July 05 2021, @02:30AM
Meanwhile, I'll consider my hardware's lack of TPM as protection against a surprise malware upgrade. ;)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @07:32AM (2 children)
The users just get pwned the same anyway.
I doubt either Windows 11 or 10 are significantly safer than a Win 7 box with firewall enabled, no RDP and with up to date browser updates.
Especially when you factor in data loss due to crap Windows updates. So far there's been plenty of data loss due to bad Windows 10 updates.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:40PM (1 child)
> haven't seen any real world evidence that any of that stuff has protected users or organizations from ransomware
You misunderstand the porpoise. They are trying to secure the machines from people with physical access i.e. employees of whatever organisation. It's security against corporate espionage.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06 2021, @05:52PM
Same shit, no difference. There's hardly any added security in practice. Even with full disk crypto the target/victim has to eventually decrypt the data to work on it. So if you can pwn the target you can get the data. And far more targets are pwnable than not.
For example, since you mentioned corporate espionage by those with physical access then the perps can plant cameras, keyloggers or custom HID pwning stuff [1] to get passwords and way more.
[1] auto version - plant something in their keyboard/mouse that detects a silence of X minutes, at a suitable time of the day, maybe jiggle the mouse pointer by 1 pixel to prevent screen lock, then eventually types in the necessary commands to download and install a payload and locks the screen. Or if unlocking the screen doesn't require MFA, it sends the keylogged password to unlock the screen, pwns the system then locks the screen back.
Manual version - you trigger the pwnage attempt only when you see a suitable opportunity from the cameras.
Not many people notice extra attached keyboards and mice that are physically inside the computer/devices.
In the theoretical secure world the would-be victim ALWAYS locks the screen before leaving the computer and MFA is always required to unlock the screen again. But in the real world?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Rich on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:23AM (2 children)
I think I'm already repeating myself here, but we're seeing the symptoms of being past "Peak IT", which was around 2010. It didn't get any better than Windows 7, Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard and Ubuntu 10.04 "lucid" (or already 8.04 "hardy"). Past that point, on the map of classic IT evolution, there was nothing of value that the commercial vendors could have added anymore.
Vendors now need to continuously milk end users to make profits. Whoever holds the keys to the cage where users have to be kept in to make that work will also cash in big time. Microsoft seem to be having a try at this now. What to expect:
1.) A good number of sold machines will have hard bootloader locking, so they will only boot Windows 11 or whatever crippled version of Linux M$ allows RH to ship for that. Maybe even none, but they will praise how great RH runs in a Windows-based hypervisor (that only costs $9 a month for the pro features).
2.) Gatekeeper-like application lockout will appear soon after W11 has a major installation base, and increase in strength over time
3.) High-definition media will continue to be available, because the TPM chain allows for hard rights-restricting measures.
(Score: 2) by eravnrekaree on Monday July 05 2021, @04:50AM
I think that hardware vendors pretty much need to accept that like other household appliances, people will replace PCs when they break, not because of planned obsolescence. OSs are more about maintenance and bug fixing, but people will need online backup that they can charge for. Hence Microsoft became more of a cloud company, even if people have a desktop with harddrive many people will want the cloud backup of the drive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06 2021, @06:01PM
From a technical perspective how much better has stuff got in nearly half a century?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyU50qbvzQ [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY [youtube.com]
It's definitely cheaper. A $100 phone does a lot, but how much of it is really for the user? ;)
(Score: 5, Informative) by mth on Sunday July 04 2021, @01:23PM (1 child)
It seems that it is possible for malicious code to get a stamp of approval: Microsoft signed a rootkit driver [arstechnica.com].
(Score: 5, Funny) by Gaaark on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:58PM
Yup: Microsoft security at its best. I trust Microsoft: they were the ones that talked me into installing linux! Thanks, Microsoft! :)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 4, Interesting) by looorg on Sunday July 04 2021, @01:46PM (27 children)
It's somewhat odd that they can't explain why. I guess they can explain why but they don't want to (DRM, Telemetry, you need to upgrade so you'll trick yourself into thinking the newer OS is faster then before etc). They don't want to tell people to upgrade their computers or get left behind. Which is kind of odd since they is more or less what smart-phone users are told every other (or every single) year or so. Upgrade or get left behind.
Still it would be a clash with how things have been, after all you have normally been able to install the new system on the same system you have been using for the last one or two previous operating systems.
Perhaps if they could do the same with say backwards compatibility they could weed out a lot of old crap code from the system. Sure it would break all the old stuff, which appears to be one of the selling points of Windows really, but it might be for the best from a system point. But it would probably be devastating on a market share perspective.
It's almost as if they are just driving the customers into the hand of the competition. Or I guess one competitor (Linux) since MacOS would require them to buy a new machine to. Perhaps they could turn say the old version of Windows free and call it Windows Legacy or something. Offer a minimum of support and no features. At least then they wouldn't be driving the customers into the hands of the competition. They could still then claim they are part of the Windows family market share.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Rich on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:22PM (21 children)
But there is no competition. The various Linux distros are so fragmented at the moment that they are effectively useless. In past Gnome2-days Ubuntu maybe held a criticial moment, but that is gone now. The scene-leading distros are small-guy-run and lack the oomph in marketing and support (or marketing that no support needs to be provided). Also, MS probably did their homework and assessed the PC users from 10 years ago. Much of the braindead bottom half has gone to Android phones for good and no longer maintains a PC. 80% of the other half is locked into at least one Windows-only program, while of the remaining 20%, 15% have no connection to any outlet they could receive a working Linux installation from (read: they are too stupid to write an image to USB and run through a chicken-proof (*) installation process and don't know anyone that could).
I think that Microsoft can pull the transition off. They can tell a few key vendors to make their next upgrade Windows 11 only (or even pay them for making it so). Add a bit of messing with the graphics drivers to force the gamers to upgrade (e.g. invent some "Widevine Pro Level" to lock it to the DRM, no W11, no media.). The masses will whine and stomp with their feet, but in the end buy the new shit including new hardware because the scope within which they could help themselves is too narrow. A lobby group and marketing team will stand ready in case that a lawmaker starts to whine, to explain how the new security measures are a patriotic necessity against Putin's evil Russian hackers, and with generous donations to assist the cause. Internationally, the French will use the whole process for a little cash-in, and hold open their hands for a billion or so, but that's factored in.
(*) Putting food grains on the return key and placing a chicken in front of it.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:53PM
As noted a large problem is the Linux fragmentation. It's probably also a matter of that people think it is a lot harder then it actually is, so if they could manage to make the installation process require even less brain capacity that might be something. But as noted I think most people will whine and moan a bit and then they'll get a new machine cause after all apparently you can't do your trivial PC tasks without the latest and greatest hardware and software.
Which in some regard I think that they (M$) could actually explain it if they actually wanted to, but they don't. Instead they are probably as you note going to try and sell it via other aspects -- some new killer game app, streaming some kind of super high def picture or "security reasons" if they can somehow make the TPM work the way they intend it or want it to. It might still be in the submission queue or be skipped but there was some news there about how the TPM requirement could be turned off in the registry, but it might just be for the test versions. If that remains then it will be harder to sell it as the security aspect.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:10PM (19 children)
???
I haven't noticed that Linux is useless. It's true I find Debian superior to the latest version of Ubuntu, and it's been years since I looked at Red Hat, but useless? Not hardly. There are purposes for which Linux isn't optimal, but not all that many. Now if you want to argue KDE vs Gnome vs ... well, you've got a minor point, but one can switch to whichever one finds easiest for whichever job is available. Currently I'm running KDE, but sometimes I prefer Mate. I haven't used any other versions in a few years, except for brief trials, but xfce is also pretty good. One chooses the right tool for the job.
That said, my wife preferred MacOS 10.4, which I kept running, though not connected to the internet. Transmitting files between the systems was a pain because many Mac applications only generate proprietary formats. For graphics she preferred Deneba Canvas (though not the current version, if the company still exists). It had a lot of good points, and I rather liked it too. Much better than either Illustrator or Photoshop, because it was a combination of them, allowing pixelated graphics where needed, but vector graphics where feasible. Inkscape + Gimp still isn't as good, though it's getting close. (Again, choose the right tool for the job. For some purposes I'm sure this would be excessively clumsy.)
So it's not that I'm unfamiliar with the other platforms, though admittedly not in the last decade. Linux really used to be harder to use, and more limited. I don't feel that it is anymore except for specialized purposes. (One that comes to mind is touch-screen applications. Linux doesn't really seem to support that very well...yet.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Rich on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:47PM (12 children)
Well, it's not useless as such: The desk in front of me has an old Mac (10.9), a not-so-old-Mac (10.14), and two old but reasonably fast Linux boxes (Mint/MATE 19/20). There's also an oscillosope, which IIRC also runs an embedded Linux. So Linux even wins 3:2 here.
The problem I brought up is that Linux is useless for people who are unable to complete the process of downloading a suitable distro, writing an image to a USB stick, booting from said stick, and installing the distro. Generally, the migration of documents and configuration of mail providers is also required. In these terms, we're super elite here, most of us could configure sendmail or xfree86 modelines with some sweat. But we need to accept that a majority of computer users out there cannot tell the difference between the Internet and the Web, and generally is unable to do the simplest things. (Fair enough, they'd fail with a proper Windows installation under similar conditions, too).
To get these people to use Linux as productive (which in reality is immensely un-productive, like formatting proportional text with spaces, but still good enough for basic survival) as their existing Windows setup, without hand-holding by a resident nerd, it would need something as streamlined and coherent as Elementary.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @04:42PM (5 children)
And since laptops outnumber desktops, installing linux is simply not an option for most users.
Plus the fragmentation problem. The multiple packagers problem. The crap that is most of the programs that haven't been updated in years in the repos. The total lack of accessibility for the visually handicapped (the distros that targeted those users are pretty much unmaintained). And of course "to systemd or not to systemd? Peak linux hotness was 20 years ago.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by TheMightyChickadee on Sunday July 04 2021, @07:08PM (4 children)
Only can dual boot with a second hard drive? Wow, we found the Windoze user! Second drive! Ha! Very funny!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:15PM (3 children)
Get rid of your recovery partition? Something breaks, you're screwed. And it's not that big. Kind of a waste if youbhave a 1 tb drive and you can only use 15 gigs (1.5%) for Linux.
Just not worth it. And shrinking partitions usually doesn't work, even after deleting hidden system files like hiber.sys and disabling hibernation.
(Score: 1) by TheMightyChickadee on Monday July 05 2021, @05:38AM (2 children)
This is why I nuke all Windows partitions upon install, and drive a wooden stake through their hearts. Only way to be sure. And if you are not willing to do that, you are not the owner of your hardware. Have fun playing your games, "nerd".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @11:40AM (1 child)
(Score: 0, Redundant) by TheMightyChickadee on Tuesday July 06 2021, @12:12AM
Never actually did an install, eh? Never run Linux? Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday July 05 2021, @02:39AM (5 children)
Even if I could walk my mom through installing my preferred distro, so I know what she's looking at... getting her to deal with updates would be an Adventure. PCLOS has a simple update applet, but sometimes it fails and I have to fire up Synaptic. How's that gonna work for a person who does not distinguish browser from OS?
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1) by TheMightyChickadee on Monday July 05 2021, @05:44AM (1 child)
Try to get them to do a Windows install on a bare system! Hilarity ensues, I promise. Especially now. "You do not have TPM." What the fuck is TPM? What is a partition? Where are all my cat videos?
There is a circle of hell, unforseen by Dante, filled with Apple users. They cannot understand directory structure. They cannot understand file types. They wander around in a daze, trying to log into Facebook. Oh, the Horror, the Horror!!
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday July 05 2021, @06:01AM
LOL, yeah, all that saves 'em is that everything comes preinstalled.
I was unaware that the Zombie Apocalypse would happen due to Apple users, so many thanks for the warning!!
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @11:43AM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @12:06PM
iPads have apps. Mine doesn't even know how to use an app store.
Browser vs OS - that's what Chromebooks are for.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 06 2021, @06:06PM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday July 04 2021, @08:55PM (3 children)
I find the constant changes to the look and feel of the GUI to be the worst part of what gets foisted upon us. Microsoft keeps changing Windows because they have a lock-in of a large part of their user base, but they could have kept the look and function (on the surface) of Windows 98 and been, as far as I'm concerned, a far more usable O/S. Linux has followed in their footsteps instead of following their own course. Not a single desktop environment is as simple and uncluttered as it was when I first started using them. KDE? Gnome (WTF!)? Their changes aren't better, just different. Different is great for those that have no use for a PC but a need to be "trendy", for those of us that use the PC's to do things, different means we have to waste time finding and relearning ways to accomplish what should be rote memory.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:17PM
(Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Sunday July 04 2021, @11:05PM (1 child)
Well, yes. Gnome2.x was the high point of Gnome, and KDE3.x was the high point of KDE. Which I why I was using Mate as my main desktop into about a month ago, when a power outage corrupted my hard disk, so I reinstalled was a convenient Ubuntu CD. Figured I hadn't looked at it in awhile, so give it another fair try. After a few weeks I reinstalled Debian. And I'm really pissed at Thunderbird because it not only doesn't have a decent way to back up an account (with emails), but the newer version that came with Ubuntu refused to recognize my backed up files. It's enough that I'm considering KMail again, though the last time I did that it wouldn't handle the number of email folders I was using and crashed, but at least one can make recoverable backups.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday July 09 2021, @10:06PM
Yes and yes. My first Linux install (that I settled on for full time use) was Mandrake 10.0, which I believe was using KDE 3.0. When the IT guy at work found out I used Linux he asked if I was willing to be a Linux beta tester there. I jumped on that opportunity, he installed Ubuntu 6.04, which had Gnome 2.x as the desktop. I switched to that at home, especially when that IT guy at work left for a better job and I was pretty much forced to be my own IT there. Ubuntu could have been ready to take over the desktop world, from 6.x to 10.x I was ready to argue with anyone it was the best O/S available. During that time Windows switched to Vista. Ubuntu's response was to come back with Unity as the desktop. At work, trying to upgrade my old PC to 12.04 with Unity hosed the install, I was only able to rescue it by finally bringing up a terminal and installing the Xubuntu XFCE desktop. I used that at work until I left. I use it now at home, although I did try Kubuntu for a year or so along the way.
I've found that I'm better off copying the .thunderbird and .mozilla/firefox folders to an external drive, then pasting them back in the home folder after an install works best. You'll have all the old e-mails, bookmarks, extensions, etc., although you might have to go through a Thunderbird and Firefox upgrade afterwards it should all still work.
I was still using Xubuntu a few weeks back...
You lasted longer than me. After about an hour I downloaded the Xubuntu .iso and reinstalled that. I occasionally think about trying Slackware or Debian but frankly I'm getting too old to spend time relearning how to use my PC (although Debian probably wouldn't be that much of a learning curve - I still use Synaptic rather than the "Snap Store"). It's mostly for my own entertainment at this point.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday July 06 2021, @08:26PM (1 child)
Have you looked at Krita [krita.org]?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday July 07 2021, @12:11AM
I've tried to use Krita 3 times, and never gotten the first thing done. *That*'s a really horrible user interface. Gimp is just a bit clumsy at times.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:03PM (4 children)
The "competition" that they are driving people to isn't Linux, but Apple. If you're already an iPhone user (40% of women in America) you'll be more likely to go to the newer M1 chips. And in 3 years, the M3/M4 chips.
Want a tablet instead of upgrading your desktop? Basically, that means an iPad to most people.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:14PM (2 children)
I do want a decent tablet computer. I'd buy an iPad in an instant if it were a more open system. But I also want a decent desktop, and Apple has long abandoned that market. So file transfer would probably be too much hassle to be worth the effort.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04 2021, @10:24PM (1 child)
Wait 1-2 ywars and new very capable) e-paper tech will be easily obtainable. The tablet of your dreams is just around the corner™.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 05 2021, @11:50AM
Since there won't be any economies of scale, and it will still depend on the same shitty programs in the various repos, and they won't be modified to be usable only by touch, you'll be fucked.
Just look at all the failed linux tablets over the last 15 years.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday July 04 2021, @03:48PM
Probably. For the most part tho I think the competition is actually the smart phone, instead of buying a new computer they just buy a "better" phone. If the new M1 chips come about soon I guess some that might want a computer will buy a mac laptop or tablet of some kind.
From some personal observation it seems the apple laptops are already fairly common, the only once I see that lug around larger wintel laptops are usually tech people. Most of the others seem to go with the Appletop.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by srobert on Sunday July 04 2021, @02:52PM
OEM's want to people to upgrade their machines. Microsoft wants machines to continue to be sold with Windows (exclusively) pre-installed. Meanwhile, Intel, AMD, want to sell more chips ...
It's not conspiracy really. It's just an emergent property of a condition where interacting agents mutually benefit from strategic obsolescence.
Collusion without conspiring. Nobody needs to spell it out. They aren't meeting in a secret back room filled with cigar smoke. They don't have to. Everybody knows where their bread gets buttered.