Vaccinated people make up 75% of recent COVID-19 cases in Singapore, but few fall ill:
SINGAPORE, July 23 (Reuters) - Vaccinated individuals accounted for three-quarters of Singapore's COVID-19 infections in the last four weeks, but they were not falling seriously ill, government data showed, as a rapid ramp-up in inoculations leaves fewer people unvaccinated.
While the data shows that vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases, it also underscores the risk that even those inoculated could be contagious, so that inoculation alone may not suffice to halt transmission.
Of Singapore's 1,096 locally transmitted infections in the last 28 days, 484, or about 44%, were in fully vaccinated people, while 30% were partially vaccinated and just over 25% were unvaccinated, Thursday's data showed.
While seven cases of serious illness required oxygen, and another was in critical condition in intensive care, none of the eight had been fully vaccinated, the health ministry said.
"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding that all the fully vaccinated and infected people had shown no symptoms, or only mild ones.
Infections in vaccinated people do not mean vaccines are ineffective, experts said.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @12:59AM (18 children)
Masks to prevent spread.
Singapore's at 75% of the population with at least one dose.
Delta looks like what the people here posting about mucosal immunity were predicting.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:03AM (14 children)
As a consequence too: no herd immunity from the current set of vaccines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Interesting) by coolgopher on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:14AM (13 children)
Honestly, I think we lost the option of achieving herd immunity when places like the UK and the US allowed themselves to become mutation factories. We were never going to outpace the virus after that. Now the best we can do is mitigate the impact when people do get infected. The equation is now simply one of everyone becoming infected and/or vaccinated.
What I really want to see is how vaccinated people fare against "long COVID", and the cognitive decline observed even in asymptomatic cases. Those numbers are what will guide me in deciding just how much I'll be willing to be out and about in the future.
(Score: 5, Funny) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:22AM
It was bound to happen after the initial effort of eradication failed in China (if there was such an effort, but that's inconsequential now).
If it wasn't US and UK, it would have been Brazil, India, South Africa... oh, wait [bbc.com].
Thus what anti-vaxxers are good for, control group, no?
Granted, unfortunately the starting point of their cognitive abilities is already not too great...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Touché) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:55AM (5 children)
The Delta Variant affecting the world, came from India.
How long do you suggest we study "Long COVID" in humans until we allow the populace to think for themselves?
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:13AM (2 children)
Implicit assumption: there was a study that revealed humans are allowed to think for themselves before covid, so that a new study can reference/compare against a quantitative result.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:26PM (1 child)
lol. A study. Thats funny.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @12:08AM
lol. Your username. That's funny.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:13PM (1 child)
Police officer, having pulled someone over:
"Sir, have you been drinking?"
Drunk motorist:
"I think for myself! My body, my choice!"
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 02 2021, @01:57PM
Good analogy.
It would be okay if the drunk driver's choice only affected themself.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:53AM (1 child)
The really interesting question then would be, whether a vaccination is similar enough to an asymptomatic case to cause the cognitive decline all on its own? ;)
However, you are working under a journalism-induced misconception; the original source did not consider any asymptomatic cases as such, but instead "without respiratory problems" which is a rather different kettle of fish.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370%2821%2900324-2/fulltext [thelancet.com]
(Score: 5, Touché) by coolgopher on Sunday August 01 2021, @07:12AM
Thank you for both that clarification and the link to the full study report.
And I'd say that avoidance of vaccination is evidence of premorbid cognitive decline all on its own ;)
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:10PM
We're at a single study on that subject AFAIK, and it followed people for only six weeks so I'm not going to insist it even covers long COVID.
An Israeli study of breakthrough infections in vaccinated health care workers found about 20% still having symptoms after six weeks. I don't remember any discussion of cognitive function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:29PM
No it's all China's fault!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:18PM
I HAVE LONG COVID AND I AM COGNITIVELY FINE.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:40PM
It's interesting then that it wasn't the US where the problematic variants have come from, it's been other areas. The US is hardly innocent here, in large part due to a refusal to force the pharmaceutical giants to give up their patent protection for the vaccine, but the reality is that there are larger, more densely populated regions with low vaccination rates. The US is just 5% of the world population and a substantial portion of the country has been taking it seriously. The places where people aren't being vaccinated and aren't masking up are mostly lower population density states with fewer total people, many of whom don't travel much outside of other states engaged in similar practices. Florida is the major exception due to the various people coming in from out of state.
Not that the US couldn't and shouldn't have done better, just that the US and UK were never going to be competitive with the likes of India or the developing world for cranking out variants if or no other reason than just how hard it is to vaccinate everybody in the world and the tendency for countries to take care of their own citizens first.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:23AM
Yeah but there's that study by the CDC, that contradicts all the other worldwide studies because... Democrats...
(Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:36AM
And militant faith to ignore that neither is working.
In case "vaccines are highly effective in preventing severe cases" (if demonstrably not for anything else), why so much effort to waste the "vaccines to prevent death" on the parts of the populace that are not at risk?
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:38PM
In fact, I'd enjoy reopening the discussion about the mucosal immune subsystem. Somewhere in the mountain of tabs are some papers that talk about what intramuscular injections can and cannot to do keep viruses out of noses.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:19AM (41 children)
If folks are vaccinated and not getting sick when they get COVID, then why does it matter if you get COVID?
Everyone I know that hasn't received the vaccine has made a choice for themselves. They aren't asking for my protection. Who are we protecting by masking up and locking down again?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:41AM (10 children)
Does it prevent "long covid" as well?
There's also the anti-vaxxer point that this justifies what they're saying: you're trading one known illness that has serious symptoms for a very few for an unknown set of potentially long-term side-effects. Those side-effects, they counter, could in fact be more serious, for many more people, than the original covid concern. (So they posit.)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:50AM (1 child)
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:10AM
There -- I added the anti-vaxxer argument for you. Hey, I'm vaccinated, I'm not concerned, and I'm not anti-vaccine -- but you're missing their point completely. You speak as though you're all-knowing, but you don't understand the point that they're raising at all.
It's not an invalid point. However, for me, it's sufficiently unlikely. You have to understand it, though, before you can make an informed decision, and you don't, and you're trying to make decisions for others.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:52AM (1 child)
"Long COVID" comes from having the virus do a number on your system and then it takes your system a long time, if ever to recover.
You won't have "Long COVID" if you were never sick enough for your body to shut down and damage your organs.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:36AM
WHOOPS!
The post _immediately_ below yours contradicts you, with an article for evidence. Do you have evidence to offer?
"Study: 20% of vaccinated health workers who test positive suffer from long COVID"
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:57AM (5 children)
It doesn't.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/vaccine-downgrades-disease-but-many-still-suffer-long-covid-israeli-study/ [timesofisrael.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Sunday August 01 2021, @09:33AM (4 children)
The article isn't quite clear - is it 20 % of the study population that get long covid (i.e. ~ 250 people) or 20 % of the serious infections (i.e. ~70 people). What is the incidence of long covid without vaccinations? Were the symptoms with/without vaccinations more or less severe for long covid?
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:22PM
All good questions, one of which I have an answer to.
Quoted numbers have a wide range but it looks like 10-30% go on to long COVID in the un-vaccinated.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:17PM (1 child)
If you're asking about the Israeli paper, here is the primary source.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072 [nejm.org]
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:48PM
Thanks
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @05:13AM
39 breakthrough cases, 13 of those were completely asymptomatic, 26 had mild symptoms, and 7 had symptoms that persisted for six weeks or longer out of the 36 cases where at least six weeks of tracking data was available.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:21AM (15 children)
Quick to spring in my mind:
1. act as a support for creating variants - like UKians and Brazilians and South Africans and Indians did.
2. ask the society to support the extra cost in the eventuality of them getting the short straw. Cost: direct or lost of opportunity - last one, give an ICU bed to a selfish bastard makes the bed unavailable to, for example, some poor vaccinated sod involved in a car accident.
I'm sure other consequences of this selfishness exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:14AM (6 children)
Ask a deity of your choice for a better mind, then.
Which is what the vaccinated do, as demonstrated in TFA.
2020 called, it wants you to update your script at last. Given "ICU bed" does nothing except prolong suffering in 90%+ of COVID cases, any selfish bastard with a bit of a brain will fight tooth and nail against being put in one, and do-not-resuscitate is a thing.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:30AM (5 children)
[Citation needed]
Until now, the evidence showed that it was the nations that let COVID run unrestricted while a great amount of population was unvaccinated that created "successful" variants (UK letting it unrestricted before they have vaccine, Brazil, South Africa and India with not enough vaccinated even now).
Yes, variants will appear after the majority of the population on the Earth will be vaccinated. I mean, common colds and flu evolve with every year. However, until then, the organisms that don't fight back the virus offers way higher probability to create successful variants.
I hope you already got that tattoo on your chest.
Meanwhile, heaps of others [soylentnews.org] don't ask for the "euthanasia by neglect" that you suggest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:01AM (4 children)
Oh, you do believe that humans are Not Animals™ and the leaky vaccines work differently for them because The Creator™ ordained it?
To pass the time while we're waiting for a huge enough clue to put you off your feed, you can enjoy reading this:
"Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/ [nih.gov]
The famous story of chickens and leaky vaccines is fine too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease#Prevention [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:15AM (2 children)
1. Demonstrate "imperfect"
2. note that "can" doesn't automatically mean "will"
3. based on your theory that "vaccinated people mutate the virus", how come so far the more virulent variants came from unvaccinated population
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @02:08AM (1 child)
Is the TFA not demonstration enough for you? The reported equally massive percentage of cases among the vaccinated in Israel and UK?
Are you playing stupid, or has your brain atrophied for real now?
Which is neatly ignored by every politician and "expert" out there pushing for ever more wild "anti-pandemic" measures.
Answer: creative reporting, and innumerate populace eating it up. Example: the "horrible, horrible" wave of COVID in India had been, in fact, hitting about two times less people per 100,000 than was "the normal" in Europe at that very moment.
Evidence of a "more virulent variant" would be more infections per 100,000 than in the prior COVID waves. For now, there is nothing like that anywhere.
Vaccines not working is evidence of vaccines not working, nothing more, nothing less; this year's flu vaccine not working against the next year's virus does not make that virus "more virulent", they usually stay about the same virulence-wise from year to year.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 02 2021, @08:56AM
Hmm... there must be something wrong with your definition of perfection, something to do with your expectation.
I expect from a vaccine to stop me dying from a disease. What's your expectation?
Suuure, mate, I got it. Send my regards to Q when you meet him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @02:54PM
After reading the abstract, it sounds like they are saying:
1) Some vaccines reduce severity without preventing spread
2) This causes increasingly virulent strains to propagate as the ones that would otherwise kill too quickly to spread no longer do
3) The result is a disease that can more easily kill the unvaccinated
From a Game Theory perspective, it seems that getting the vaccine is still the best choice for all individuals, even if not getting it might have been better overall. Also, this problem only applies to vaccines where the spread of the disease is not inhibited, which from what I have heard, is not what is the case with Covid (even Delta).
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:01AM (7 children)
1. That's a whole lot of finger pointing and assuming. It easily could have sprung out of a nursing home in Oklahoma.
2. The reality is that for almost everyone on planet earth, healthcare is a luxury, not a right. What you are talking about doesn't even register for the majority on planet earth. While I appreciate the argument, I don't believe its true in most cases. One example... Our hospitals here in Colorado have never gotten to a point even close to that. Colorado isn't an outlier. What you have suggested is so unlikely to happen here in the United States, across the board, at any level, it hasn't happened. But, it certainly pulls on the heartstrings and SEEMS true. Right?
Selfish? Triggered? I don't enjoy name calling, it doesn't seem to ever help any conversation.
I appreciate your points, but I don't agree with your premise.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:28AM (6 children)
So far, I have a hypothesis based a correlation and you have a hypothesis based on nothing.
Really? Or is it just you don't know about it?
I seem to remember a time when El Paso needed to hire mortuary trucks [reuters.com] even when it was clear that social distancing, masks and lockdown (with only essential services allowed to continue) do work in quenching a epidemic (I should know, that's how the population of 5M in Melbourne Australia dropped from 700+ new infections/day to zero).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 01 2021, @11:44AM (5 children)
You do realize that El Paso is a border town, right? And, that El Paso medical services serves a huge area outside of the United States, right? And, you realize that the border is as porous as a sponge? Before holding El Paso up as some kind of example, give a little thought to the situation in El Paso.
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:15PM (4 children)
Really, man? You mean... Trump did nothing to secure the border on his watch? It wouldn't be surprising, he did nothing about COVID.
How about... Cincinnaty [fox19.com], border town, right?
Is North Carolina [wxii12.com] something to think too?
Is Tennessee [roanoke.com] spongious or just spongiform?
you haven't learned to keep that knee-jerk thinking in check, have you Runaway?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:52PM (3 children)
Knee jerk reactions, lol! You should stand outside, and look in at yourself for a good laugh. COVID is here to stay. It will be part of life from now on. Knee jerk reactions to every new headline will just leave you miserable.
It may take more than your lifetime, but COVID will be just another illness eventually. The statistics people will prepare their annual reports, showing that x people died of heart disease, y people died of pneumonia, z people died of flu, and w people died of COVID - then move on to the next section of the report dealing with premature accidental deaths like drownings.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @09:05PM
Dude. Just face it. You are WRONG.
You have been brain slammed...wait...you have the LONG COVID!!?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:09PM
Working hard to move goal posts again, I see.
Did I get you enough examples that getting COVID while not vaccinated can result in over straining the ICU to the detriment of others that may need it for other reasons?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:20PM
Poor Runaway, lost the support of the multiple alt-right trolls that bailed recently. Very few people to back up your insanity these days. Hope you realize they supported you because they just loved 'trolling da libs.' Fix yourself you old goat.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RamiK on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:34AM
Because the ability to multiply and spread despite the inoculations gives the virus time and opportunity to mutate and develop into a more deadly and resistant strain with longer incubation time.
It's essentially an economic model and public policy disaster: Pfizer and Moderna need a certain level of long term profitability to stay sustainable through keeping other countries on the upgrade treadmill so the US and UK are promoting "herd immunity" policies that oppose the WHO's policies that seek to eradicate the virus. Until fairly recently, the UK/UK's planned obsoleteness position was begrudgingly accepted as a necessary evil. Now, it's increasingly becoming clear it's no longer an acceptable risk.
The good news is that, unlike with environmental issues, the lockdowns are causing so much immediate economic harm to so many industries all across the globe that it's very unlikely the pharmaceutical industry will drive us into early extinction. The bad news is that the long term relationship with the WHO and the global community won't recover overnight so by the next pandemic the US & UK will likely find themselves on everyone's no-flight lists.
compiling...
(Score: 3, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:19PM (3 children)
We're protecting my friend with the organ transplant whose vaccine may or may not have taken.
We're protecting my friend with lupus, ditto.
We're protecting the minority of vaccinated people who get cases with symptoms.
We're protecting all the other people who need hospital beds for other reasons who risk getting crowded out by COVID patients.
We're protecting all of us against the next rolls of the genetic dice evolving new virus variants.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:14PM (1 child)
These highly unusual cases, while sad, are not a reason for the rest of the population to be locked down forever. We are not going to eliminate COVID. It is just not in the cards. These people, with very specific cases you talk about need to protect themselves. In almost every case you mention, its not just the COVID virus that is an issue for them.
The argument that somehow we are all going to "slow down" these variants is a strawman. Unless you vaccinate the entire population of the planet and give boosters every 6-12 months, you will always have variants. In this perfect world, you may slow down a variant, but you'll never stop a virus from doing what a virus does. In the real world we live in, we may be lucky to inoculate 1 billion people a year going forward.
I do not see a benefit in all of us locking down and acting like we are in control of mother nature, and I think these arguments are mostly not based in reality.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:25PM
You sir are an idiot of the highest order. Perhaps you should actually look into the history of vaccines and the various diseases you have the luxury of not worrying about.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:54PM
You're unfortunately not going to convince people like him that they should give a shit about anyone else.
Like with creationism, it's a philosophical and moral fight trying to cloak itself in the language of science to give the guilty party a "reason" not to do the right thing or face the truth. The supposed science-based objections are a smokescreen at best, and they're covering for the real problem: a combination of malicious ignorance and lack of giving-a-shit about anyone but themselves and anything but their short-term comfort.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:07PM (6 children)
Someone needs to have mod points taken away, it was a valid question and I hope this is a valid answer. Kids under 12 can't be vaccinated, and some have died. As soon as the kids are allowed to be vaccinated I'll become anti-mask. When anybody can get vaccinated, anybody who winds up in the hospital deserves it, as well as the bankruptcy it will likely cause (in America only).
After kids can get vaccinated, any unvaccinated kid who winds up in the hospital should have his or her parents arrested for child endangerment.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:35PM (2 children)
Yea, I've gotten some folks that now mod me down no matter what I say about COVID. You can ask the most basic question and you get modded down. They're even following me to other threads. I thought that was just something that happened to other people. :)
I agree with you. I've always been fine with masking when it made sense. Will be nice when we get a vaccine for the kiddos.
And again to your point, I asked a question, "Why does it matter if one gets COVID if they don't get sick?" And folks then took that to mean that I am anti-vaxxer, or I hate people, or I want folks to die, or I don't care. It really goes to show that on this topic, most folks have so many false assumptions based on the crap they read on the internet, as well as they hear with these talking heads on these news shows, that it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion. Ask a question that is completely rational and you get totally flamed as people immediately assume they know the way I think on the other 10 issues around COVID. Love it!
(Score: 0, Redundant) by aristarchus on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:45PM (1 child)
Welcome to the club! You get used to it, after a while.
Just stop being an anti-vaxxer, and hating people and wanting them to die, and not caring! ;) I am sure then the down mods will stop.
(Score: 2) by Barenflimski on Sunday August 01 2021, @11:50PM
lol, noted. Thanks for the warm introduction!
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:21PM
I don't think there is a study to say "Kids under 12 suffer grave side effects from the current crop of vaccines", we are at "we don't yet know how kids under 12 react".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Monday August 02 2021, @09:12AM (1 child)
Vaccinated people who have to take anti-rejection drugs for a transplanted organ, are on chemotherapy, or otherwise have immune issues are still at risk of hospitalization if they catch COVID [sfchronicle.com]. Even if those people never leave their homes (which isn't always feasible), they're still getting assistance from vaccinated healthy people who run their errands for them, drive them to the doctor, and potentially live with them.
If you're willing to mask up to protect healthy kids (who have an absurdly tiny chance of serious illness or death from COVID), then you should be willing to do the same for kids & adults who are doing everything "right" but are still in danger (through no fault of their own) until we get COVID under control.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday August 07 2021, @01:55PM
I have a friend who has a transplanted liver and transplanted corneas, and didn't leave his house until he could be vaccinated. His doctor told him he's safe.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:45PM
That's not a troll, that's a legitimate question.
The answer is that ideally, they wouldn't be getting and transmitting it so that we can wipe it off the map the way that we wiped out smallpox. If people are getting it anyways, that means that it's going to take longer for us to get it properly under control and that we may require vaccinations to continue indefinitely with possible booster shots if necessary.
But, it doesn't really make much of a difference as to whether or not people should get the vaccinations. We don't really hand out vaccines because they keep everybody from getting sick, we hand them out because we're trying to prevent death and serious disability. Not getting sick at all is more of a byproduct of the methods we use preventing the disability and death by reducing the infection rate and severity. A vaccine that just prevents serious illness and death would still be potentially very useful for things like variants of ebola that kill 50-90% of those that get infected. Bleeding out of your eyes might not be very fun, but if that's where it stopped and you got better afterwards, it wouldn't be a big deal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @11:51PM
Therein lies the flaw in your logic.
People that don't get a choice - first line workers, seniors stuck in nursing homes, disabled folks stuck in hospices, normal people that don't have a choice because they're economic situation doesn't allow it, etc. They're at the full mercy of the people that they come in contact with - people with logic like yours that are only making choices based on selfish introspection about them, themselves, and their own.
You may not be one of those that come with contact with that group, but this virus has a nasty habit of going around as quickly as modern technology can carry us around.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:25AM (53 children)
Even with vaccination, you can still get infected and spread to others.
Oh, you say, not my problem if they don't get vaccinated? There are people who either could not get the vaccine or cannot take it because of medical condition.
Just mask the fuck up, at least in in-doors, at least for now. The motherfucking virus is still raging.
Or be the selfish asshole that you are. Who cares about others, eh?!
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @02:48AM (36 children)
Is that their problem, or mine? Shall _I_ be in charge of fixing that problem? (Are you sure you want that?) Let those people take proper precautions. I certainly can't take sufficient precautions to alleviate them from having to take precautions, and I maintain that wearing a mask and evacuating my breath from the sides, at head-height, rather than through my nose, toward the floor, is not going to help them. (Have you missed the "recent studies" that show that it's air-borne and masks aren't sufficient?)
And then, is it even just this one illness? It's probably the regular flu, too, and the common cold, and a host of other illnesses that everyone gets and no one even notices because -- hey! Immune system!
In the US we say that all men(mankind) are created equal; we do not say that all men shall have every individual deficiency corrected for by the populace. Fuck that. No one is going to accept "the mask" as a new extension of their body. No one is ever going to accept masks as a new piece of mandatory clothing.
As has been predicted from the beginning, Covid is the cold. It's not going away. Ever. No one is going to wear masks forever. Not even the Japanese.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:04AM
Masks help to prevent YOU spreading virus to others, way more than protecting yourself.
But you do you. Be the asshole you want to be.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by helel on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:17AM (22 children)
Why wouldn't people accept "the mask" as a new mandatory piece of clothing? It serves more function than shoes, shirts, or pants in many climates and most people are more than happy to make those mandatory.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:29AM (10 children)
People wore shirts, shoes and pants because they were useful before some thought to make them mandatory.
Face diapers are quite different. The only culture I can think of to mandate those have been the Arabs, to hide human expressions of women from their non-owners.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:35AM (8 children)
You very sure about that, don't you?
Like protecting one's the skin against sun and protecting one's lungs from the abrasive silica particles in the desert have no survival merit, eh?
And protecting others who you will get to depend during your life has no survival value for a society, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:19AM (5 children)
STOP WITH BULLSHIT ALREADY.
(Score: 4, Touché) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:32AM (4 children)
Support your... ummm... let's call argument.
Otherwise, GO FUCK YOURSELF, you hear me now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:51AM (3 children)
I understand that fucking yourself is what you got used to in your lockdown, but most of us fortunately do not live in AU.
You are welcome to your virus-safe fun however. Keep protecting others!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:10AM (1 child)
"Keep protecting others!"
We will, and we shall continue judging you selfish death cultists that like to insult people who inconvenience themselves to protect others =D
I'm vaccinated, and cloth masks don't much protect me, yet me and mine are still wearing them in case we get infected. Looks like your insecurities are leaking again!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:16AM
Is being a muzzled animal the only point of pride you do have?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:40AM
Thank you, that what we'll do until something better comes along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:23AM (1 child)
We should have mandatory masks. But they should be the full hazmat and gas mask getup.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:34AM
Whatever works in a reasonable cost/benefit balance.
Or are you "all or nothing" in all that you do in life?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:31PM
I guess there is no more review of vindictive spam mods on SoylentNews anymore, now that TMB was left?
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:33AM
Because in the civilized countries there are NO mandatory pieces of clothing?
Sure, some fundamentalist dumps do mandate pants, or burqas, or whatever, it is savages being savages. Same thing with masks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:25AM (2 children)
For the same reason that people won't give up wearing plunging neckline shirts, despite society branding them sluts: it's Their Choice.
If you want to call them inconsiderate of others, I hope you never, ever get yourself into a position of control of an automobile, otherwise you're falling to the No True Scottsman fallacy. (Pedestrians don't survive automobiles very well, and probably fair much worse than the 0.01% of people without an immune system vs covid. How many people die to automobiles a year, again?)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:59AM
Put up a mask and I'll admit you take some degree of consideration on the health of others the same way I do for the safety of pedestrians when I drive.
It's not like I'm driving whatever way my mood at the moment pushes me to, fuck the pedestrians and their safety.
BTW, are traffic rules also an affront to your constitutional rights?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @11:58PM
Lol, plunging neckline shirts don't kill people indiscriminately. Spread of covid does - everyone should do their little bit to reduce the spread probability.
This isn't about you, yourself and your pure liberty anymore. Its about the collective fate of the species - some minor annoyance in liberty is worth it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday August 01 2021, @09:59AM (3 children)
Or neckties. If there was ever a completely useless article of clothing...
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:13AM
Or one that converts into the other. Profit!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @01:23PM (1 child)
They are not useless. They can be used as a Tourniquet to cut off the blood supply to the brain.
(Score: 1, Redundant) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:56PM
That may explain a troubling amount about managers in general...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:26PM (1 child)
Some of those signs I saw earlier in life claimed it was because of health codes. I don't know any diseases that are spread by bare torsos (but the world is full of surprises). I do know some diseases that spread better without masks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @08:51PM
Healthcodes are primarily about disease, but there are other codes relevant. A shirt will keep any hair from people's chest from getting into the food. It also protects a bit against burns.
It's probably a bit of an exaggeration to suggest that for people eating at a restaurant that they need to wear shirts for health reasons, but depending upon the establishment, it may actually legitimately protect patrons. That being said, a bunch of places just have them because they're sick of looking at fatties that are showing off far more skin than they have any right to and nauseating other patrons. Not really a healthcode sort of a thing, but still a legitimate business decision.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:12PM
It serves more function than shoes, shirts, or pants in many climates
In Thailand, they wear sandals, even with business suits. In a jungle like that, shoes will cause jungle rot (a super athlete's foot). If you want to point to pointless clothing, how about Satan's Leash, the necktie? I refuse to wear them, even at a wedding or funeral.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:30AM (4 children)
If you don't care about their life, then OK, it's not your problem.
Beware the karmic wheel, though, at one point you may be at the bottom of it and it could really be a case of "not my problem" for all the others. How about if you get it bad and "not my problem to give you a bed in ICU"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:30AM (2 children)
An excellent No True Scottsman fallacy example.
Because someone doesn't mask up, they're an asshole. However, you then walk outside, get into your vehicle, and drive to the grocery store -- all those pedestrians be damned. What's more likely, finding a 0.01% person who doesn't have an immune system and isn't protecting themself and might fall ill to covid, or hitting a pedestrian with a car? About the same? Better that you'll hit a pedestrian?
You can always just bike. Why aren't you biking to get groceries? Just wait for that karma to come back around. When you get hit by a car, I hope the person says, "It's not safe to be a pedestrian - I'm in a car for my own safety around people driving cars." Oh, your world is burning, because everyone is driving because you can't give up your car, because unsafe? Well, then. What a wheel you're spinning.
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:47AM
If that happens, in spite of all precautions that I take to minimize the risk, I will take the responsibility of it and support the consequences of what I did.
Your turn now:
1. please explain how you take care of the heath of the others
2. please declare that you are willing to assume the responsibility if you infect another who dies and you are ready to go to jail if that happens.
Because until know all I heard was about the mighty you and your libhurties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 03 2021, @12:04AM
There's a lot of problems with your car analogy. First we have a bunch of other restrictions/laws about cars and pedestrians - much similar to, I don't know, wearing masks?
If people still die from all that motor & pedestrian laws, then so be it - you know much like the fact that wearing masks still won't eradicate the mortality rate of this pandemic but will help to reduce it a bit?
Now wearing neck ties, that's something to cry havoc about...
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:21PM
After everyone can get vaccinated (I have a friend who is a chimera, but is still vaccinated) i.e., when kids can get it, I agree with him.
It's a little like when the cop showed up at my door when I was a teenager, asking why I didn't defend the punk my friend beat the holy hell out of for pushing a girl down?
Like I told the cop (I had no trouble, he was smart enough to understand), why should I defend someone who refuses to defend himself? If you're an adult or teen American who is anti-vax and winds up with a breathing tube, well, you fucking BEGGED for it and the resultant bankruptcy (only in America can you go bankrupt from illness or accident). Unlike Mr. T, I have no pity for the fool at all.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:46AM (6 children)
The thing is your behavior is their problem. This is classic external cost.
Would your answer change, if you were wrong? /sarc
My take is that yes, that would help them contrary to your assertion. And when one says "masks aren't sufficient", one is really saying "masks aren't perfect". They aren't asking the right questions in the first place.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:12AM (3 children)
And their behavior (not protecting themselves if vulnerable) is our problem. WHY it is us who should suffer the "external cost" for them and not vice versa?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 01 2021, @11:56AM (2 children)
What does "not protecting themselves" mean here?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @02:26AM (1 child)
Not going into a crowd when they know they have no immune system to speak of? Or taking vitamins to keep the immune system they have in a working order? (and yes, an year and a half was plenty long enough to demonstrate that it works against COVID just as well as against flu; you however may believe whatever you wish, it is your funeral after all)
When you have peanut allergy, the government does NOT ban peanuts from the country to make you safe; it is YOUR responsibility to read the warning labels and to act accordingly, to keep yourself alive and well.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by khallow on Monday August 02 2021, @04:49AM
So where again is your warning label? "Caution: this country may contain nuts"?
Here's my take. You may want to think for once before making your irresponsible behavior someone else's responsibility.
(Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @07:39PM (1 child)
If masks don't work, what happened to the flu season? Inconclusive since other variables weren't controlled and people were isolating.
If you study masks in a lab with lab equipment, they reduce droplet spread:
https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-research-confirms-critical-role-of-masks-in-preventing-covid-19-infection/ [mayoclinic.org]
But does that help in real life? At a Great Clips in Missouri, two stylists came to work with COVID and stood close to 140 customers before they were stopped. The stylists were masked. What did that do to the number of cases among the customers?
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm [cdc.gov]
Thing is, there's masks and then there's masks. A single layer of cloth isn't going to do much. Now that normal people can use N95s that's what I go indoors with. But collect data on "masks" that includes bandanas and gaiters and things that don't even fit, yes, you'll see low effectiveness.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @02:28AM
Being miscounted as coronavirus cases?
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html [cdc.gov]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @03:26AM (5 children)
Honestly, on long term and if the situation does not change, they are fucked. The virus will get to them one way or the other, given there doesn't seem to be a way to acquire herd immunity.
It still doesn't mean that one is entitled to act as the cause of their death sooner (because "muh libhurties" or any other such assholery); borrowed time as it may be, it is not impossible this time may be enough to find a treatment that work for their case before they get unlucky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:08AM (3 children)
Obviously, the time of peoples lives that your masters stole and continue to steal with their lockdowns and travel bans, is worthless to you.
No one of us is getting those years back.
As to who is entitled to what, consider that many countries have human rights written into their Constitution for a reason. That the politicians have found a "pandemic" backdoor to grab dictatorial powers, does absolutely nothing to counter that reason.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:39AM (2 children)
Better than to steal lives entirely, yes.
Speaking for myself, it has been quite a productive life while in lockdown, thank you.
Do you want to make the point that your life values more than the one of those over 600,000 people that died in US alone?
Tell this to COVID, see if it cares much.
Besides, do yourself a favor and understand the implications of Jacobson v. Massachusetts [wikipedia.org]. Once you get it, maybe you would want to open a suit all the way of to your Supreme Court, until then the precedent stands. Or maybe you'll manage to adjust your mindset and stop shitting the "muh libhurties" intellectual diarrhea whenever is something that your brain can't digest.
I'm not that naive to think you'll to any of the two, but worth a try
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @02:53AM (1 child)
A life is not some magical spark, our immortal soul is. A life is nothing but a collection of years, that we can either freely enjoy ourselves, or be made to waste slaving for someone "better" so that THEY have more of their years to freely enjoy at our expense.
A nonagenarian has but a few of those years remaining in their collection. Your stealing away a year from a 1000 people to give an extra year to 1 is 999 years wasted of other peoples lives. Obviously the years of that 1000 are worthless to you, then why are you PRETENDING the year of that 1 is so very sacred?
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html [ssa.gov]
I noticed. Your product is rather noticeable.
However, your propaganda bot gig WILL dry up and then what?
It was the first time people died in the US? And the only cause of their deaths? Oh wait...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234 [jamanetwork.com]
And it SOMEHOW happened that you inflated the number nearly 2x. Such an compulsive liar you are.
Anyhow, the point which you pretend not to understand, is that the lives of those who are LIVING are NOT worthless.
In Sweden, it somehow does.
It only took one brave man to take responsibility and stand unbowing to death threats, to save his people from you crazies.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 02 2021, @08:52AM
That goes for free, from conviction and, as such, it ain't gonna stop.
I suspect is the same as your belief in "immortal soul" - I don't thing there's something like that, as such the years of life is all one has.
Irrespective of COVID, I'm quite happy writing software for my current employer, a team mostly brilliant in their late 20-ties early 30-ties, with dyed hair and ripped jeans, brilliant software engineers and fun bar crawl with. Based on wage increases and bonuses, my employer seems happy with me too.
All my colleagues in Sweden and most of the ones in Vancouver are working from home. Unlike most of us in Melbourne, they are all vaccinated and I would be too if the damned liberal govt would stop going from blunder to blunder and organize better the availability and distribution of vaccines; after all, it's not even that hard to do it better than the abysmal level of stupidity they are showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 01 2021, @04:34PM
I think about this a lot given who I have in my circle.
I am hoping they can lower their risk to something tolerable with N95s, grocery delivery, and avoiding crowds.
Even when I was not wearing a mask in other people's houses, I kept one on visiting the house of my friend the transplant patient. People around the vulnerable can choose to "be a barrier, not a carrier".
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Sunday August 01 2021, @09:20AM (4 children)
Even with vaccination, and masks, you can still get infected and spread to others.
The same risk that justifies the mask also justifies staying home. If you choose not to isolate, you are putting others at risk.
Drawing arbitrary lines in the sand to make yourself feel good is fun, but in the end you are making the same exact calculation as everyone else. You are willing to accept a risk to other people in exchange for being able to live your life as you see fit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:07AM (1 child)
There are some people you simply cannot hold a discourse/communicate with.
Life is binary to you, it's all black or white, eh?
I mean, we all die, why bother, eh?
Asshole.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Sunday August 01 2021, @06:24PM
Right back at ya
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @12:13AM (1 child)
"you are making the same exact calculation as everyone else"
You can't argue with such idiotic false equivalencies. Guess we'll mark shortscreen as yet another rightwing sociopath with bad critical thinking skills.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Monday August 02 2021, @07:20AM
Yes, please add me to whatever list of heretics you are maintaining so that I may be spared your moronic replies in the future.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Opportunist on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:31AM (1 child)
I'm a selfish asshole. I am vaccinated and mask up.
At the same time, I'm happy for everyone who isn't and doesn't, since this allows the infection numbers to stay high which means that I can continue working from home.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Tuesday August 03 2021, @12:09AM
You dear sir/madam are true to your user name!
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday August 01 2021, @05:26PM (2 children)
There are people who either could not get the vaccine or cannot take it because of medical condition.
What medical conditions are you referring to? I know a chimera, and he's been vaccinated. I had thought he couldn't be, but he was. I can think of no other reason for any adult to not be vaccinated. By this winter all Americans will be eligible.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 01 2021, @10:20PM (1 child)
》 What medical conditions are you referring to?
Transgenderism. And since 6% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 25 self-identify as transgender, that's millions of people who cannot be vaccinated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 02 2021, @05:53AM
Transgenderism doesn't disqualify you from getting vaccinated as either a contraindication or a precaution.