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posted by janrinok on Tuesday August 17 2021, @09:45PM   Printer-friendly
from the I-thought-you-should-know dept.

US issues new terrorism threat warning ahead of 9/11 anniversary - France 24:

The US Department of Homeland Security issued a new terrorism threat advisory on Friday ahead of the anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks and amid a resurgence of the coronavirus pandemic.

The National Terrorism Advisory System Bulletin said the United States faces a "heightened threat environment" from both domestic terrorists "and those inspired or motivated by foreign terrorists and other malign foreign influences."

It cited increased use of "online forums to influence and spread violent extremist narratives and promote violent activity."

The new advisory updated a January alert following the attack on the US Congress by supporters of then-president Donald Trump, when DHS said the country faced "increasingly complex and volatile" threats from anti-government and racially motivated extremists, often stirred up by online influence from abroad.


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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Snotnose on Tuesday August 17 2021, @09:53PM (66 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Tuesday August 17 2021, @09:53PM (#1167978)

    otherwise all this Orwellian bullshit the government is pulling might make the headlines.

    I suspect on 9/11 some cave dweller in Afghanistan will fart on an American flag, then kill some tied and bound innocent woman to prove how manly he is.
     

    --
    Is anyone surprised ChatGPT got replaced by an A.I.?
    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @09:58PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @09:58PM (#1167980)

      Are incaves like incels?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:21AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:21AM (#1168040)

        Won't somebody think of the involuntarily noscent women‽

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:32PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:32PM (#1168323) Journal

        involuntarily cavernous?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:04PM (59 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:04PM (#1167981)

      otherwise all this Orwellian bullshit the government is pulling might make the headlines.

      You're mad at the gov't and not at the people that handed them a really good excuse earlier this year?!

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:40PM (58 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:40PM (#1167989) Journal

        You're mad at the gov't and not at the people that handed them a really good excuse earlier this year?!

        Yes, there will always be idiots. There will always be "really good excuses" for power grabs. Just don't play that game.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Tork on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:51PM (37 children)

          by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:51PM (#1167993)

          Just don't play that game.

          Apparently the team that ruined it for everybody at the beginning of the year still wants to play [rollingstone.com]. Maybe if a certain political party said "that's now how we roll" instead of "Nah we don't wanna investigate that" ...

          --
          🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
          • (Score: 1, Troll) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @01:58AM (36 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @01:58AM (#1168030) Journal
            We'll probably hear such stories for another year or so until the propaganda value goes away. Where's the violence, if this group wants to be violent?
            • (Score: 5, Touché) by Tork on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:28AM (35 children)

              by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:28AM (#1168043)

              "Where's the violence?!" he demands after I just pointed out the Republicans avoided investigating. 🙄 I'd wager ten bucks at some point you've compared the riot to the BLM protests using words like looter or rioter.

              --
              🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
              • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:53AM (27 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:53AM (#1168054) Journal

                the Republicans avoided investigating

                "Avoided investigating" sounds pretty violent to me too. /sarc

                I was asking about actual behavior or acts of violence on a large scale. You know, something like the Floyd riots. I literally am in the boondocks, so I don't hear a lot of news. But there seems to be a dearth of insurrectionist riots since January.

                • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:53AM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:53AM (#1168064)

                  "I literally am in the boondocks"
                  You literally are in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment with blinds drawn and a sheet over the window, cum-covered shirt on the floor, smell of balls and BO, and empty beer bottles and food containers on your desk, tranny porn playing, rubber woman on the floor-mattress. You literally are an old incel with autism.

                  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:26PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:26PM (#1168202)

                    No, that's me. You've gotten your targets confused again.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:24PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:24PM (#1168343)

                      Right, you're shallow-khallow. The autistic incel. Who posts from AC most times because your low karma prevents you from posting. No one here is confused except your mom when she walks in on you fucking your doll.

                • (Score: 3, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:27AM (23 children)

                  by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:27AM (#1168087)

                  "Floyd riots".

                  If there is someone out there who cares about reality, this is the reality of many thousands of demonstrations.
                  https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/ [acleddata.com]

                  • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:34PM (22 children)

                    by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:34PM (#1168325) Journal

                    There were months and months of protests, in cities and towns across the nation, before any small amount of violence occurred.

                    The Trump insurrection lasted about an hour before they were beating police officers with American flag poles.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:20AM (21 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:20AM (#1168414) Journal

                      There were months and months of protests, in cities and towns across the nation, before any small amount of violence occurred.

                      Such as police getting struck [nypost.com] by cars? That incident was five days in (and part of a large amount [wikipedia.org] of vehicular mayhem).

                      There's something wrong with the narrative.

                      The Trump insurrection lasted about an hour before they were beating police officers with American flag poles.

                      That is true. But how many Trump insurrections were there? Hundreds?

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:54PM (20 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:54PM (#1168610)

                        Everyone that went there to have the election overturned was an insurrectionist, though we could give a little slack to the lazy bums that sat outside to watch everyone else do the hard work of beating officers, breaking into the building, and smearing shit on walls.

                        Trump announced his intentions, told them to fight very strongly and march on the Capitol. Videos of the speech and the insurrection itself are freely available, but I guess they aren't Hollywood levels of exciting so you get bored and don't think it is real action. Too funny!

                        • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday August 19 2021, @11:23PM (19 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @11:23PM (#1168670) Journal

                          Everyone that went there to have the election overturned was an insurrectionist

                          Because? Odd how little you bother to rationalize this.

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:41AM (18 children)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @05:41AM (#1169525)

                            Because they said as much.

                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:08AM (17 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 22 2021, @11:08AM (#1169565) Journal

                              Odd how little you bother to rationalize this.

                              Still applies. In a nation with freedom of speech, you need more than this.

                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @07:26PM (16 children)

                                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22 2021, @07:26PM (#1169668)

                                I know you would like the goal post to sit over by you but it doesn't.

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @02:28AM (15 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @02:28AM (#1169741) Journal
                                  Again, all you're complaining about here is speech. What's special about the speech? I'll note that no one has actually found incriminating speech in the speech from video and such.
                                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @03:45AM (14 children)

                                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @03:45AM (#1169753)
                                    > Again, all you're complaining about here is speech.

                                    Nope, I'm complaining about the attempted insurrection.

                                    > I'll note that no one has actually found incriminating speech in the speech from video and such.

                                    You haven't accepted anything, you've been shown quite a bit,
                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @04:05AM (13 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @04:05AM (#1169755) Journal

                                      Nope, I'm complaining about the attempted insurrection.

                                      Then where's the evidence. Speech by itself is not evidence.

                                      You haven't accepted anything, you've been shown quite a bit,

                                      Indeed, the shoddy quality of the arguments, such as the one you present here, is why I haven't accepted "anything".

                                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @05:44AM (12 children)

                                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @05:44AM (#1169760)
                                        > Then where's the evidence. Speech by itself is not evidence.

                                        Evidence has been broadcast, dissected, analyzed, even delivered to the boondocks. Evidence abounds. You've seen it, which is pretty obvious because you frequently give yourself away.

                                        > Indeed, the shoddy quality of the arguments, such as the one you present here, is why I haven't accepted "anything".

                                        Your threshold is based on convenience, not quality. Recent example: Tossing aside that they said as much. Your "counter-argument" was so hastily conceived a less tired version of me would have teased you for supporting my point.. you certainly didn't do anything to counter and/or argue it, just said that you don't accept it.
                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @12:33PM (11 children)

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @12:33PM (#1169832) Journal

                                          Evidence has been broadcast, dissected, analyzed, even delivered to the boondocks. Evidence abounds. You've seen it, which is pretty obvious because you frequently give yourself away.

                                          Indeed. And yet here we are with you vaguely waving your hands about rather than discussing the details of this alleged evidence.

                                          Your threshold is based on convenience, not quality. Recent example: Tossing aside that they said as much. Your "counter-argument" was so hastily conceived a less tired version of me would have teased you for supporting my point.. you certainly didn't do anything to counter and/or argue it, just said that you don't accept it.

                                          Indeed. I think it's more than convenience that we not waste our time on shitty arguments. Come up with a non-shitty argument and it'll become convenient to consider that argument.

                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @02:40PM (10 children)

                                            by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @02:40PM (#1169879)

                                            I already have, you're the reason we're waiting here.

                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @03:37PM (9 children)

                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @03:37PM (#1169890) Journal
                                              No, you haven't. You merely say you have. I've seen this gimmick over and over. Insurrection is not saying mean things. It's not rioting. Words mean things. [soylentnews.org]


                                              Meanwhile we have counterevidence - such as people not bringing firearms to the coup and the lack of violence since. We also have the Floyd protests and riots which indicate that insurrection needs a lot more than just some misbehaving people saying mean things to count as an insurrection.

                                              You can complain all you want about the "waiting", but until you can show that evidence you allege to have, you're wasting my time with these cheap one liners and trash talk.
                                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @04:20PM (8 children)

                                                by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @04:20PM (#1169897)
                                                > No, you haven't. You merely say you have.

                                                I actually have and your dismissal of it was and is still, as of your latest post ... crap. Wouldn't even hold up in a group of your peers, which is kinda funny since the first reaction was to claim all that destruction was actually by Antifa in disguise. It was bad enough to blame the left, make the Republicans run away from an investigation into it (which should have owned the libs, right?), get a shit-ton of people in legal trouble, and draw comparisons to events Trump-supporters caricaturized to resemble World War Z. The pressure is on you, not me. You're gonna have to do way better.

                                                > and the lack of violence since

                                                You are VERY selective.
                                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @06:29PM (7 children)

                                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @06:29PM (#1169954) Journal

                                                  I actually have

                                                  Where? There's no point to your posting until you can point to that "actually have".

                                                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:44PM (6 children)

                                                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @06:44PM (#1169962)
                                                    Yeah, when you take no time to consider anything it just falls straight out of your head. It was less than 16 hours ago.
                                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @07:44PM (5 children)

                                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @07:44PM (#1169990) Journal
                                                      You have a link? Because I don't buy your narrative. My take is that there hasn't been any serious development of the insurrection narrative in six months, much less 16 hours.
                                                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @07:57PM (4 children)

                                                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 23 2021, @07:57PM (#1169996)

                                                        Uh huh, you're not big on clicking links. Just scroll up. 🙄

                                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 24 2021, @02:35AM (3 children)

                                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 24 2021, @02:35AM (#1170119) Journal
                                                          Sorry, I've already been through those links. An AC only posted one and it was a quote from Theodore Roosevelt. So no, I don't buy that there's a link I'm missing here.
                                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 24 2021, @03:51AM (2 children)

                                                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 24 2021, @03:51AM (#1170146)

                                                            Not interested in pasting a link to this thread. Scroll. Up.

                                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 24 2021, @04:13AM (1 child)

                                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 24 2021, @04:13AM (#1170151) Journal
                                                              Sorry, I looked. Not wasting my time when you won't contribute.
                                                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 24 2021, @04:56AM

                                                                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 24 2021, @04:56AM (#1170158)

                                                                Your frivolous dismissal of my point followed by your unwillingness to scroll up a little and give it a second look means I have lost nothing. Based on your remarks before it's likely you wouldn't click anything I sent anyway. You're welcome to start taking it seriously any time you like, but demanding I spoon-feed you is clownish, especially when it'd just be to a link few posts back.

                                                                You saw it earlier when you dismissed it, you can see it again without my help. Own your shit.

              • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:38AM (6 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:38AM (#1168152) Journal

                I'd wager ten bucks at some point you've compared the riot to the BLM protests using words like looter or rioter.

                On this latter remark, you would be right. It's sensible to compare similar events to each other. BLM protests include a few riots with similar scale and violence.

                Similar response to similar events, right?

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:05PM (5 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:05PM (#1168252)

                  Wrong.

                  You have repeatedly called the BLM riots horrible things while mocking people that claimed the protests were mostly peaceful, a fact which was true as only 1/4 of the protests turned into riots.

                  The 1/6 insurrection is not comparable to rioting aside from the destruction of property. Trying to overthrow a democratically elected government is a MASSIVE addition to the comparison which makes 1/6 an insurrection by rioting Republicans. Insurrections and coups don't require violence or murder, though riots do require violence.

                  So once again you inadvertently show not only part of the truth but you lead us to an even more important distinction. Republicans are not only violent, they are fascists intent on overthrowing our system of government.

                  Thank you khallow, very helpful!

                  Oh, except for "Similar response to similar events, right?" since it took months to arrest the insurrectionists and the police were incredibly gentle with the insurrectionists, not to mention many of the CPD and some members of congress were aiding and abetting the insurrection.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:35PM (4 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:35PM (#1168358) Journal

                    You have repeatedly called the BLM riots horrible things while mocking people that claimed the protests were mostly peaceful

                    Then you should be able to link to a post where I did that, right? I see no point to defending myself from a post that only has an AC's word backing it up.

                    The 1/6 insurrection is not comparable to rioting aside from the destruction of property. Trying to overthrow a democratically elected government is a MASSIVE addition to the comparison which makes 1/6 an insurrection by rioting Republicans. Insurrections and coups don't require violence or murder, though riots do require violence.

                    I've already spoken [soylentnews.org] about how there's no evidence to support the assertion that someone was trying to overthrow a government with the 1/6 protest/riot. That problem remains. It's more than half a year later and we still don't have evidence to support that claim.

                    Oh, except for "Similar response to similar events, right?" since it took months to arrest the insurrectionists and the police were incredibly gentle with the insurrectionists, not to mention many of the CPD and some members of congress were aiding and abetting the insurrection.

                    It didn't take that long. They starting arresting people that day. Viking man got arrested January 9 [bloomberg.com]. Zip tie man and his Mom got arrested January 17 [huffpost.com]. There's something wrong with the narrative.

                    "It took months" because the feds have been arresting people for months. They are trying hard and have arrested over 600 people [insider.com] as of the present. This is a huge investigation. But perhaps their investigation of the riots that happened during the Floyd protests were similar in scale?

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @12:08AM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @12:08AM (#1168366)
                      > Then you should be able to link to a post where I did that, right?

                      And this is where refusing to look at links and hand-waving away any argument you find inconvenient really bites you on the butt. ;)
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:44AM (2 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:44AM (#1168403) Journal

                        And this is where refusing to look at links

                        Sounds like you're not thinking. What's special about "links"? Last time someone played this game, it was JoeMerchant throwing down [soylentnews.org] some link to an entire video series about climate with not even one word about why I should look. For an example of how it's done right:

                        I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to listen to the video, but this is the way to do it. Enticing and descriptive description and it's not like 3 hours long. I still don't like video for the usual reasons, but aristarchus has addressed my biggest complaint with how this is done. If only there were some way to transfer this awareness to all the other people who want to force-feed me videos.

                        I saw an AC there:

                        oh look, Khallow is avoiding checking inconvenient links again.

                        Of course, the link is inconvenient: no description, sounds like the thing is ridiculously long, and most important no reason given why it should be relevant to my viewpoint!

                        What is there to get here? This magic video is going to change my outlook on climate change? Then you should be able to say something positive about it - sell me or other readers on it. It shouldn't be even slightly hard.

                        Instead, we get this sort of garbage. It's a fallacy of ritual. Sorry, if you can't say anything good about the "link", then there's no point to me watching it. I don't have infinite time to watch everyone's pet video.

                        And when you throw out a link, refuse to even discuss what's at that link, and then get all pretentious when I don't bother to care, that tells everyone that you're not serious, that this argument is all theater and pretense.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @04:33AM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @04:33AM (#1168434)

                          lol! If you ever face a judge please please PLEASE take my advice... don't defend yourself. ;)

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @03:41PM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @03:41PM (#1169891) Journal
                            I take it the trash talk indicates your abject surrender on this topic?

                            My bet is that in a couple of years, all that will remain of the January 6 trials will be a bunch of belly aching about how the feds failed to prosecute all these people on those serious insurrection crimes. Of course, by then we'll all have something else to lose our shit over.
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:01PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:01PM (#1167995)

          Are there any "good games" you can teach us to play with Penis? Hear you good playing games with your Penis. Can you teach me "the power grab"? What is your favourite repository of pornographic videos?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:30AM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:30AM (#1168044)

            Isn't the power grab where you just grab them by the

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by Tork on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:14PM (2 children)

              by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:14PM (#1168183)
              ... eyes?
              --
              🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:47PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:47PM (#1168245)

                According to this [goodreads.com]:

                If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:28PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:28PM (#1168345)

                Dork and Shallow smitten in a tree. F u c k i n g. Because no one else will fuck either of them w/o payment, and they're broke. Broke Back. Bareback.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:38PM (14 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:38PM (#1168298) Journal

          there will always be idiots. There will always be "really good excuses" for power grabs. Just don't play that game.

          As long as there are domestic terrorists who would overthrow the government, and call themselves patriots, and they plan and act on it, it is necessary to maintain the continuity of government as well as the peaceful transfer of power.

          These 'patriots' (or idiots as you call them) should figure out what democracy really is. None of us always like the outcome of democracy. All of the time.

          This was not just any building they stormed. This was not just any proceeding they disrupted. This was the very foundation of our democracy that creates the peaceful transfer of power. They just didn't like the result. So they (idiots) felt empowered to install a minority government of their choosing.

          They are idiots. You can make excuses for them all you want. But it does not minimize the seriousness of what they did nor the gravity of the potential result. If they actually succeed at cause US democracy to fail, you'll have second thought about defending them and minimizing what they tried to do.

          I know that there were some people on the fringes who were just idiots.

          Terrorists, whether foreign or domestic, are why we can't have nice things. Why we have to take off our shoes at airports. These people on Jan 6 made the situation worse. They are utterly unable to think ahead to what happens if we do this?

          --
          There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:37PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:37PM (#1168359) Journal

            As long as there are domestic terrorists who would overthrow the government, and call themselves patriots, and they plan and act on it, it is necessary to maintain the continuity of government as well as the peaceful transfer of power.

            Let's suppose this scenario. Then various parts of it should be observable, right? Particularly, the acting on domestic terrorist plans. So where's these domestic terrorists and their terrorism?

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:30AM (12 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:30AM (#1168419) Journal

            Why we have to take off our shoes at airports.

            As an aside, why hasn't the US federal government yet found a technological solution to taking shoes off? My take is that the theater of taking shoes off is more important than whatever terrorist threat this ritual is supposed to stop.

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday August 19 2021, @01:29PM (11 children)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @01:29PM (#1168485) Journal

              I can't disagree with that.

              As for your other reply, I won't bother to reply any more than this. The evidence is observable. The terrorists had a plan. They talked about the plan. On videos they talked about it. Thy said things like "stick to the plan". This was violent. You can't bust through police lines with metal barricades and then call it non violent. They knew how to move through the crowd in stack formation and did so. They brought radios. They had weapons nearby at the ready. This is all in evidence. If you haven't seen it, then you haven't been looking for it. Look at the indictments. By their own words they were there to "stop the steal". You can try to spin it however you want. But the evidence is now on record as part of history.

              --
              There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:39PM (10 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:39PM (#1168571) Journal
                This is remarkably thin. I don't think we should be trying violent people with plans and radios for insurrection, unless there's actual evidence of insurrection. And once again we have that similarly remarkable acknowledgement that the rioters could have come heavily armed with lethal firearms, but chose not to. That remains evidence contrary to the narrative of insurrection.
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:42PM (9 children)

                  by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:42PM (#1168603) Journal

                  Just what exactly would you define as an insurrection? What level of violence, what evidence would you need before you would call it an insurrection?

                  Now, repeat those two questions, but on each question add the suffix: ... when done by democrats opposing a Republican president-elect.

                  If this exact thing had been done four years ago to prevent Trump from being certified president, you would be screaming about it.

                  These people came in with the intent, stated in their own words, verified by friends, neighbors and social media, that they indented to murder both Pence and Pelosi. (members of different parties)

                  Their actions completely backed up that intent and their statements of that intention.

                  This was an attempt to prevent the president-elect from being certified, and install someone else. I don't know what you would call that. That was the entire reason they came even before they breached the police line.

                  --
                  There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:58PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @07:58PM (#1168613)

                    "I don't know what you would call that."
                    FTFY

                    Insurrection/coup/treason is what objective people call it. We've seen what khallow calls them: tourists.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 20 2021, @12:24AM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @12:24AM (#1168678) Journal
                      I called them protester/rioters from the beginning. Never tourists. I never minimized what they did.
                  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by khallow on Friday August 20 2021, @12:22AM (6 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 20 2021, @12:22AM (#1168677) Journal

                    Just what exactly would you define as an insurrection?

                    A revolt or uprising to established authority. A rising up; uprising. The act of rising against civil authority or governmental restraint; specifically, the armed resistance of a number of persons to the power of the state; incipient or limited rebellion.

                    The definition is vague, but consider that the January 6 protest/riot only lasted a few hours and didn't result in any sort of uprising nor a revolt. They weren't armed for a revolt despite having firearms nearby. Thus, the protesters didn't show signs of trying to escalate the protest to an uprising or revolt. It was a one time thing. Meanwhile the crazy stuff in Portland, Oregon and Seattle, Washington resulted in dozens of riots, lots of destruction of federal property, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ), and similar assaults on law enforcement officers.

                    People seem unwilling to venture that those are insurrections. Thus, reasonable consistency of rules indicates that similar and lesser infractions of the January 6 protest/riot should be treated similarly. The sauce that is good for the goose is good for the gander.

                    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 23 2021, @01:32PM (5 children)

                      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @01:32PM (#1169850) Journal

                      A revolt or uprising to established authority. A rising up; uprising. The act of rising against civil authority or governmental restraint; specifically, the armed resistance of a number of persons to the power of the state; incipient or limited rebellion.

                      This insurrection was because they didn't like the outcome of a peaceful election and they wanted to overturn the result.

                      That is about as insurrection as it gets -- even if they were not successful. They had the intent, openly stated to murder officials. God only knows what would have happened had the chambers of congress not been evacuated in time. This might have turned out very differently and lasted much more than 6 hours. That's like saying that since a murderer, with stated intent and malice aforethought failed in his murderous act, it's all okay. Nothing bad really happened.

                      --
                      There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @02:04PM (4 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @02:04PM (#1169862) Journal

                        This insurrection was because they didn't like the outcome of a peaceful election and they wanted to overturn the result.

                        If you don't like the outcome of an election, peaceful or otherwise, why wouldn't you want to overturn the result? At best, you've just described a motive. You need actions of an insurrection to go with that.

                        That is about as insurrection as it gets -- even if they were not successful. They had the intent, openly stated to murder officials.

                        Hyperbole is not intent. Sorry, you haven't established intent.

                        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 23 2021, @04:16PM (3 children)

                          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @04:16PM (#1169895) Journal

                          If you don't like the outcome of an election, peaceful or otherwise, why wouldn't you want to overturn the result?

                          Because, at present, we still live in a democracy where the people vote for their representatives and leaders.

                          I know Republicans really hate that. But that is how it is at present.

                          --
                          There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @05:56PM (2 children)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @05:56PM (#1169929) Journal

                            Because, at present, we still live in a democracy where the people vote for their representatives and leaders.

                            The key words are "we still live in a democracy". You can freely label saying mean things while misbehaving in the Capitol building an insurrection. But to make it so, especially with criminal penalties, undermines that democracy.

                            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 23 2021, @06:09PM (1 child)

                              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @06:09PM (#1169933) Journal

                              This was not "saying mean things". That is your delusion. This was:

                              • Violently breaking through a police barricade
                              • With a metal barricade around the building
                              • Dragging officers
                              • Beating officers, people who are just defending the capitol, and have a family
                              • Violently breaking in to the building
                              • Violently breaking past multiple doors
                              • while alarms are blairing and it was clear they did not belong there
                              • they violently battered down multiple doors, including the sacred chambers of congress
                              • They stole things, broke things and vandalized things
                              • They left threats

                              "saying mean things" is an outright lie about what happened.

                              --
                              There can be only one cable TV Network: USABCNNBCBSyFy
                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @06:12PM

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @06:12PM (#1169938) Journal
                                And thus, you have a riot. Again, you're not at this insurrection people keep talking about.
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:34AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:34AM (#1168047)

      They're not mutually exclusive though. The poorly planned exodus of allied forces in Afghan now means the extreme faction has control of the nation's resource - this will not bode well long term for everyone. It isn't just a US problem here.

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:46PM (1 child)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:46PM (#1168329) Journal

        Historically speaking, the Taliban are interested in terrorizing their own citizens more than ours. [usma.edu] They target Westerners in the region but don't really engage directly in international terrorism.

        There is some concern they will turn a blind eye to more aggressive organization in the area but who doesn't do that? We consider Pakistan a legitimate government and they do the same damn thing!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:05AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:05AM (#1168392)

          Except they are terrorist cell friendly - so yes, they may not engage in direct international terrorism but they're friendly and serve as thriving incubation hubs, safe havens, etc.

          And yes we do care about their own citizens as well - we can't just show them a better world, start them down the path and now just bail - very irresponsible and quite inhumane.

  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:43PM (49 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:43PM (#1167991)

    "increasingly complex and volatile" threats from anti-government and racially motivated extremists, often stirred up by online influence from abroad.

    There is no possibility, of course, that those "extremists" are bred by an increasingly dysfunctional Congress over the last 15 years? When your entire "democracy" consists of one extreme right-wing party and one off-the-charts bonkers-mad party, isn't extremism the only rational outcome?

    This message brought to you from abroad.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:55PM (47 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @10:55PM (#1167994)

      Sure, Limey.
      Since when is loving your country and demanding your elected representatives actually abide by and defend the Constitution of your country "extreme right-wing'?
      Another thing you missed, is the United States of America is NOT a democracy. Never was, hopefully never will be.
      Enjoy your government treating you like cattle!
      We're not going to take it.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:13PM (14 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:13PM (#1167998)

        The Democrats are extreme right wing, the insane ones are the R's.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:40PM (10 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:40PM (#1168001)
          While you guys are pissing the day away trying to equate the two parties one of them is being clobbered by their pandemic policies AND has voted to not investigate itself over an attempted insurrection earlier this year.
          • (Score: 0, Troll) by Acabatag on Wednesday August 18 2021, @01:52AM (9 children)

            by Acabatag (2885) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @01:52AM (#1168027)

            An 'attempted insurrection' where we've surprisingly seen no evidence that any of the 'insurrectionists' who entered the Capitol were carrying firearms.

            You know the media would be screeching about it if any of them had been.

            No, it was just the typical crazy mob of 'protesters', not well armed or particularly well organized. However they were not of the flavor that the media and intellectuals typically side with so the screeching went off chart.

            • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:16AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:16AM (#1168037)

              Just a bunch of enthusiastic tourists on holiday killing and maiming cops.

              My favorite was the gallows put up and the "hang Pence" chants. LOL! When me and the wife go on holiday, we always bring the collapsable gallows with us. You never know when you might need it.

              • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:15PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:15PM (#1168281)

                No one killed or maimed any pigs, you dumb bitch. 1/6 was a false flag, and is used to continue the true sedition, funded and organized by the Jews, against the only real americans; white americans.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:20PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:20PM (#1168315)

                  I sense a spam mod coming for what seems like the last nutjob to stick around. Pretty sure you need medication pal.

            • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:37AM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:37AM (#1168060)

              just the typical crazy mob of 'protesters', not well armed or particularly well organized

              Just because they were the worst group of insurrectionists in history doesn't change what they were. I'm sure most of them believed they weren't, but when you're disrupting/raiding the end of an election to ensure your side wins, what else would you call it? Regardless of the amount of violence (and breaking through barricades is violence), they were there to overthrow the proper count to put someone else in power. Thus it was an insurrection and so the people involved were insurrectionists. That most of them were too dumb or emotionally charged up to realize that is partially beside the point. Hopefully the judges take that into account (why are there no stories on the convictions or hasn't there been any yet?), but sadly the easily manipulated people tend to get steamrolled by the justice system and the ones manipulating them into becoming criminals get away free.

              Since the next election will probably go R, the future is concerning. Though if it goes D it'll still be concerning. Sadly too few people vote I for the Is to matter. I wish we could vote on issues rather than on figureheads.

              • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:30AM

                by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:30AM (#1168091)

                There have been a handful of guilty pleas so far, with moderate sentences. Hundreds more still in the pipeline, it's not a system optimized for speed nor should it be.

              • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:50PM (2 children)

                by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @09:50PM (#1168331) Journal

                why are there no stories on the convictions or hasn't there been any yet?

                The guilty pleas get done fastest. There's 27 of them so far.

                27 rioters have pleaded guilty for their role in the Capitol insurrection so far. This table will track them all. [insider.com]

                Trials and whatnot will obviously take longer.

                The Justice System is a bit slow but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @01:02AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @01:02AM (#1168377)

                  Good point. It seems like it happened longer ago than it did. Thanks for the link.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 23 2021, @03:43PM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 23 2021, @03:43PM (#1169892) Journal
                  In those charges, I see one count of felony obstruction of Congress and a lot of parading in the Capitol.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:31AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:31AM (#1168093)

              Do you need someone to lend you a dictionary?

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:16AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:16AM (#1168007)

          It really doesn't matter which one is the donkey and which one the elephant. Both sides will agree that the other sides is bonkers mad, and both sides will disagree that their side is extreme right-wing.

          ...which only goes to show there isn't a wisp of difference between them.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:21AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:21AM (#1168013)

            Not a wisp eh? Then you are insane. If your point is corruption runs in both parties to server the oligarchs, then sure, and that is a point you should be clear on instead of generalized bullshit.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:29PM (#1168204)

          If you think the Democrats are extreme right wing, then you must be so far to the left wing that you've fallen off the bird.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:57PM (29 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 17 2021, @11:57PM (#1168002)
        > Since when is loving your country and demanding your elected representatives actually abide by and defend the Constitution of your country "extreme right-wing'?

        Since you tried to change the outcome of a democratic election over bad sportsmanship.
        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by istartedi on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:12AM (28 children)

          by istartedi (123) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:12AM (#1168005) Journal

          You missed the point. One of the other ACs actually thinks that the DEMOCRATS are extreme right. This is a popular online trope because the Communist Party isn't viable in the USA, and the vast majority of Americans don't want it to be viable because we've seen what can happen when it is.

          --
          Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:28AM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:28AM (#1168016)
            > This is a popular online trope because the Communist Party isn't viable in the USA, and the vast majority of Americans don't want it to be viable because we've seen what can happen when it is.

            Considering how often you lot mix up the terms socialist and communist, and how you call anything you simply don't like communist or socialist, I hope you understand that the phrase "we've seen what can happen" in this context is hilarious on multiple levels.
            • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by istartedi on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:45AM (6 children)

              by istartedi (123) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:45AM (#1168114) Journal

              Parent is a fine example of what happens under communism. My post isn't flamebait. At least use the Disagree mod if you disagree. That's what it's there for. Of course moderation integrity and the mod system doesn't really matter to communists--it's just a tool to further revolutionary ideals.

              "Is hilarious on multiple levels" isn't even an argument. It reduces to the form "You're stupid and I am very smart".

              Of course real debate almost doesn't matter if you can successfully brigade a thread. It's a teensy, tiny little slice of what communists do, which is to brigade an entire country.

              Now cue the "that isn't really communism" response. Of course it isn't. Nothing is ever communism. The goal posts will move for all eternity.

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              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:24PM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @03:24PM (#1168186)
                > It reduces to the form "You're stupid and I am very smart".

                Not exactly, it's an assessment of your credibility. For example...

                Of course real debate almost doesn't matter if you can successfully brigade a thread. It's a teensy, tiny little slice of what communists do...

                ... which is completely justified. I said you call everything you don't like communist and your response was: "Be civil, cos what you're doing instead is what communists do!" It's funny! You're hilarious! It's funny on one level because you basically replied with "Oh yeah, well so's my mother!" and on another level because the definition of 'communist' isn't dependent on insightful observations on the lack of depth to your premise. There's a whole 'nother level that involves your news sources have given you tells.

                Maybe spend a little less time tuned to a station that uses the phrase 'commie pinkos' a certain number of times per-commercial-break?

                • (Score: 2) by istartedi on Thursday August 19 2021, @12:45AM (3 children)

                  by istartedi (123) on Thursday August 19 2021, @12:45AM (#1168373) Journal

                  It's probably pointless to argue with somebody like this--when somebody presumes to know their opponent's viewing habits, it's a strawman and basically an admission that they don't have much of an argument.

                  Yeah, sure. I'm the personification of Fox News or whatever.

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                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:31PM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:31PM (#1168533)
                    > when somebody presumes to know their opponent's viewing habits, it's a strawman and basically an admission that they don't have much of an argument.

                    I like how the ENTIRE part where I criticized you for putting your foot in your mouth is precisely the part you skipped over. lol, yeah, tell me more about lack of an argument. ;)
                    • (Score: 2) by istartedi on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:33PM (1 child)

                      by istartedi (123) on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:33PM (#1168566) Journal

                      I never put my foot in my mouth at all. I think what this all boils down to, is that you can't abide the idea that somebody could be smart and also passionately opposed to communism, so you have to make me out as stupid, or read things in that aren't actually there.

                      The last word is yours.

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                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @06:05PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @06:05PM (#1168574)
                        I made a point about generically throwing out terms like communist and socialist to rebut an otherwise difficult-to-argue point. You then responded with "that's what commies do!" and proceeded to move down a different tact once I called you on it. lol yes you totally put your foot in your mouth.

                        My point is made. Yours isn't.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @11:19PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @11:19PM (#1168667)

                "My post isn't flamebait. At least use the Disagree mod if you disagree."

                Socialists/communists have a longstanding reputation of doing everything they can to silence (or ostracize or oppress) their critics. This is no surprise.

                "Of course moderation integrity and the mod system doesn't really matter to communists"

                Of course not. Just like they have a longstanding history of cheating elections, they'll just as well cheat the moderation system and the discussion. They have no scruples when it comes to playing dirty.

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:59AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:59AM (#1168022)

            We've seen what can happen in the US too. Medicare. Social security. The VA. These are WILDLY popular policies
            .

            • (Score: 3, Troll) by istartedi on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:57AM (1 child)

              by istartedi (123) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @06:57AM (#1168117) Journal

              The USA has a mixed socialist-capitalist economy operating within a constitutional framework. It doesn't work without the capitalist part that funds the programs via taxes. Communists want to abolish the capitalist aspects and don't care any more about the Constitution than 1/6 insurrectionists do. Those wildly popular policies aren't what I was referring to, and everybody knows it. I'm talking little red book. Cultural revolution. Killing fields.

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              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:35PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @04:35PM (#1168208)

                Well, operating with the facade of a constitutional framework. The facade is wearing mighty thin these days.

                Since we're progressing (puns always intentional) right along the same ol' path from Republic to democracy to dictatorship, isn't it exciting to wonder about who the (first) dictator will end up being? Many thought it would be Trump, but apparently not. Some think there's a currently unremarkable colonel somewhere in the armed forces who will step up like Pinochet or Franco, to take control and lead our country back to the correct path. Ah, may it be so.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:43AM (16 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:43AM (#1168050)

            Ok, I'm going to break down the differences among capitalism, socialism, and communism.

            I googled the terms and read all these articles and all of them have these confusing definitions about from each according to his ability to each according to his needs or to his contribution. I kept reading and this is basically what I came up with in terms of a more practical definition.

            Capitalism: Taxes are low. I can make whatever product I want to make and make it however I want to make it (ie: product specs and features) and sell it for whatever price I want to sell for and sell as many as I want to whom I want or don't want. I can make as much money as I want or can. If I make a thousand dollars, a million dollars, a billion dollars, that's fine.

            Socialism: I can make whatever product I want to make and make it however I want to make it and perhaps sell it for whatever price I want to sell for and sell as many as I want perhaps to whom I want or don't want. If I start to make too much money I get taxed like crazy to the point where taxes limit how much I can make. The government redistributes that money according to how they see fit. The government may also have minimum wage laws and whatnot.

            Communism: The government is my employer. They decide what I make or what gets made, how I make it and product specs and features, how much I make, how the product gets distributed to whom, and how much I get paid.

            • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:56AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @02:56AM (#1168056)

              So to further this conversation the above descriptions are economic structures.

              You have three basic political structures. Democracy, constitutional republic, and dictator.

              At one set of extremes you can have a capitalistic dictator or a communist dictator. At the other set of extremes you can have a capitalistic democracy or a communist democracy.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:30AM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:30AM (#1168092)

              Capitalism: Taxes are low. I can make whatever product I want to make and make it however I want to make it (ie: product specs and features) and sell it for whatever price I want to sell for and sell as many as I want to whom I want or don't want. I can make as much money as I want or can. If I make a thousand dollars, a million dollars, a billion dollars, that's fine.

              All the above ignoring externalities and the commons. And one expects it to be sustainably exponential, 'cause growth rate is the only thing that matters once money were floated.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:33AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:33AM (#1168095)

                "What's that siren?"

                "War were declared."

              • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:47AM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @10:47AM (#1168149) Journal

                And one expects it to be sustainably exponential, 'cause growth rate is the only thing that matters once money were floated.

                How is that expectation different from any other economic approach? Thinking that the present state can only continue is not somehow limited to capitalism. A classic example of it in the socialist area are public pensions that promise more to an individual than they take from the individual to fund. They often require considerable population growth (to maintain a large number of workers per pensioner) in order to function. A classic example of growth expectation in the communist area are the repetitive 5 year megaprojects that are supposed to make everything better. Or the Marxist dialetic viewpoint where conflict and failure are expected and yet somehow it's going to end up with a better world.

                Meanwhile, if businesses operate on the principle of infinite growth and that somehow causes a fatal problem, then they just go bankrupt and can be replaced by businesses that didn't make those assumptions.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:38PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @05:38PM (#1168570)

                  I always find it amusing how people always try to give the more successful countries (ie: capitalistic countries) all this advice but then they don't bother to try and give the less successful countries (ie: socialist countries) any advice.

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by istartedi on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:28AM (10 children)

              by istartedi (123) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:28AM (#1168121) Journal

              People define those terms lots of different ways. The way I see it:

              Capitalism: In theory, nothing more than the operation of the free market. A natural consequence of liberty due to minimal government interference. Note that the original definition of "liberal" was more aligned with what most Americans would describe as "libertarian", ie, the laissez-faire system of the 19th century. Due to this hands-off approach problems arise, namely the accumulation of capital and monopolies. These problems were addressed in the USA first by Progressives. This is another word which has changed in meaning. Progressives of the turn of the 20th century believed in using science to guide public policy, and in the reform of capitalism. The term "progressive" in the USA has come to be a catch-all for anybody who leans left, although a preference for guiding policy via science is still in evidence. At any rate, the Progressives sought to address the problems arising under laissez-faire capitalism via reform rather than revolution.

              Socialism: In Marxist circles this has some strict definition which I can't quote from memory; but it's along the lines of being an intermediate stage in obtaining what they regard as the ideal state of society. Because socialism is envisioned as a step towards communism by Marxists, this is probably why it has become an epithet in the USA. In other countries there is a recognition that socialism doesn't necessarily have to be revolutionary and politicians may actually identify as socialist. The non-revolutionary socialist seeks to address the problems of capitalism with what you might call a kinder, gentler revolution--one where businesses are taxed and income redistributed either directly or more likely via social programs. While such socialists may always push towards greater government involvement, they accept compromise and work within their nation's constitutional framework. They may caucus with Progressives, recognizing that economics, to the extent it may be called a science, should inform public policy and that absolute government control is not always the best solution even though they have an ideological preference for it.

              Communism: The ideal society envisioned by Karl Marx, which has never existed in practice and is unlikely to ever exist in practice because it works great on paper but not in actual societies. However, for the sake of this discussion it might be helpful to identify communism as "revolutionary socialism" as described above. The communist pushes past the progressives in their zeal for government control over the economy. While a progressive or a socialist seeks to address the problems of capitalism via reform, a communist seeks to address them via overthrow.

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              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:47PM (9 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @05:47PM (#1168229)

                I think the difference is that with capitalism the purpose of taxes is to provide for essential government services. In socialism the purpose of taxes is to redistribute wealth.

                • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:31PM (8 children)

                  by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Wednesday August 18 2021, @07:31PM (#1168264)

                  I think the difference is that with capitalism the purpose of taxes is to provide for essential government services. In socialism the purpose of taxes is to redistribute wealth.

                  The difference is that in capitalism as it is now wealth is redistributed upwards, while in socialism the goal is to redistribute wealth across the board.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:03PM (7 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:03PM (#1168271)

                    In capitalism wealth is not redistributed at all. Perhaps distributed but not redistributed. Government is what redistributes wealth.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:11PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:11PM (#1168275)

                      I guess the way to look at it is that

                      In capitalism markets distribute wealth
                      In socialism government redistributes wealth
                      In communism governments distribute wealth

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:28PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:28PM (#1168289)

                      Let me be more specific (because wealth must be created before it can be distributed/redistributed)

                      In capitalism markets create and distribute wealth

                      In socialism markets create (and perhaps initially distribute) wealth and government redistributes wealth (governments don't create anything in socialism, per definition, they only redistribute the wealth that markets create).

                      In communism government creates and distributes wealth

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:58PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @08:58PM (#1168307)

                        Also to get more specific in capitalism wealth is distributed to those that create it. If I make shirts and you make shoes I can either trade you shirts for shoes or I can buy one of your shoes with the money I make from selling shirts and you can buy one of my shirts from the money you make selling shoes (of course it's not always that simple. There are arguments to be made that this is not always the case such as the backwards bending labor supply curve. We don't want too much wealth inequality I would say that even economic theory supports this).

                        In socialism the government can tax me for the shirts I make and give that money to someone that produces nothing or consumes way more than they produce (someone irresponsible with money) so that they can buy one of my shirts without having done anything for it. This is something that needs to be carefully looked at. I would argue that there is nothing wrong with providing for someone that legitimately can't work or find a job but we need to make sure we don't provide for people that are simply lazy and want to take advantage of the system.

                        These issues may also get more difficult to discuss if you have such an overabundance of production from those that work (ie: AI/automation) that there is no labor market for anyone else.

                        I'm not siding with capitalism or socialism or communism in this post specifically I'm just trying to outline the distinctions as clearly as possible. I personally tend to be a free market capitalist overall but everything is about having the right balance. There may be a role of government to provide some goods and services (ie: public roads which one may argue is communist even). There might be a role of government to redistribute some wealth. There might be a role of free markets to provide goods and services as well.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:05AM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:05AM (#1168391)

                      By that definition, capitalism does not, has not, and will never exist.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:36AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:36AM (#1168398)

                        To redistribute is an act of government.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:44AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @02:44AM (#1168404)

                        To redistribute is an act of government. The government is basically forcefully taking from me what someone voluntarily gave me and giving it to someone else. They are redistributing what I have.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:29AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 19 2021, @03:29AM (#1168417)

                        I think the distinction between capitalism and socialism is that in capitalism taxes paid are intended to pay for government programs that benefit the taxpayer like public roads. In socialism (some of the) taxes paid are redistributed to things that don't benefit the taxpayer (ie: welfare).

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:09AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 18 2021, @12:09AM (#1168004)

        We're not going to take it.

        So, you agree with the parent that extremism is the rational choice?

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:45AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 18 2021, @11:45AM (#1168153) Journal

      There is no possibility, of course, that those "extremists" are bred by an increasingly dysfunctional Congress over the last 15 years?

      I would say that is accurate. Congress is a funhouse mirror that reflects underlying conflicts of interest in US society at the national level in the worst light. Look elsewhere for the light source.

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