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posted by martyb on Saturday August 28, @08:44PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the good-fibrations dept.

$15 drug gets COVID patients off oxygen support in under week – study:

Fourteen out of 15 severe COVID-19 patients who were treated in an investigator-initiated interventional open-label clinical study of the drug TriCor (fenofibrate)[*] didn't require oxygen support within a week of treatment and were released from the hospital, according to the results of a new Hebrew University of Jerusalem study.

Fenofibrate is an FDA-approved oral medication. The results were published on Researchsquare.com and are currently under peer review.

Specifically, the team that was led by HU's Prof. Yaakov Nahmias carried out the study at Israel's Barzilai Medical Center in coordination with the hospital's head of the Infectious Disease Unit, Prof. Shlomo Maayan, and with support from Abbott Laboratories.

[...] The 15 treated patients all had pneumonia and required oxygen support. They were also older with multiple comorbidities, ranging from diabetes and obesity to high blood pressure.

"The results were dramatic," Nahmias told The Jerusalem Post. "Progressive inflammation markers, which are the hallmark of deteriorative COVID-19, dropped within 48 hours of treatment. Moreover, 14 of the 15 severe patients didn't require oxygen support within a week of treatment." The 15th patient was off oxygen within 10 days.

When looking at the data on other similar severe patients, less than 30% of them on average are removed from oxygen support within a week. In other words, fenofibrate could dramatically shorten the treatment time for severe COVID patients.

"We know these kinds of patients deteriorate really fast, develop a cytokine storm in five to seven days and that it can take weeks to treat them and for them to get better," Nahmias said. "We gave these patients fenofibrate and the study shows inflammation dropped incredibly fast. They did not seem to develop a cytokine storm[**] at all."

Cytokine storms are aggressive inflammatory responses to illness.

[*] Fenofibrate entries on MedlinePlus and Wikipedia.

[**] Cytokine storm on Wikipedia.

Journal Reference:
Yaakov Nahmias, Avner Ehrlich, Konstantinos Ioannidis, et al. Metabolic Regulation of SARS-CoV-2 Infection, (DOI: 10.21203/rs.3.rs-770724/v1)


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  • (Score: 2) by Spamalope on Saturday August 28, @09:04PM (7 children)

    by Spamalope (5233) on Saturday August 28, @09:04PM (#1171854) Homepage

    Given the therapeutic crap fest online (both suppression and tin foil hat snake oil stuff), it sounds like a small blinded and control group study is in order if nothing else to head of another round of BS. And since the claim is that it helps late stage a trial shouldn't have the concerns a drug thought to work only at onset of symptoms would.
    As is, this only suggests further study vs proving any efficacy. If there is a real signal simple trial will find one as big as reported easily. Or rule it out... (well - aside from the conspiracy hobby folks)

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Spamalope on Saturday August 28, @09:12PM (1 child)

      by Spamalope (5233) on Saturday August 28, @09:12PM (#1171855) Homepage

      Posting to add: "The professor is now involved with a series of Phase III studies being carried out in South America, the United States and Israel. Those studies are placebo-controlled and double-blind."
      I'll be awaiting those results, hopefully they've got something.

      • (Score: 4, Funny) by JoeMerchant on Saturday August 28, @10:44PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday August 28, @10:44PM (#1171881)

        14/15 is pretty strong. We will be following his career with great interest...

        --
        John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
    • (Score: 2) by driverless on Sunday August 29, @05:16AM (3 children)

      by driverless (4770) on Sunday August 29, @05:16AM (#1171962)

      It does seem pretty silver-bullety, something that's effective in a mix of patients who are "older with multiple comorbidities, ranging from diabetes and obesity to high blood pressure" seems a bit too good to be true. Be interesting to see if it can be replicated under controlled conditions.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:29AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:29AM (#1171977)

        Side effects: penis growth up to 1", perky breasts and Improved Wellness.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 30, @01:59PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 30, @01:59PM (#1172322) Journal

          What about persons who have only one of either a penis or breasts, but not both? Do they experience any benefits from the treatment?

          --
          In order to make Halloween scary this year, children are ordered NOT to wear masks.
      • (Score: 2) by Immerman on Sunday August 29, @04:36PM

        by Immerman (3985) on Sunday August 29, @04:36PM (#1172052)

        Sounds like double-blind trials are in progress, so we should get more conclusive answers soon. (Assuming it's not a full on fraud)

        I'm sure how relevant specific co-morbidities actually are - if the root problem is COVID interfering with oxygen uptake, then the co-morbities may well be mostly worsening the consequences of that. An unhealthy body is less able to deal with such extreme stresses. Treat the root problem directly, and the fact that your body couldn't deal with that problem stops being relevant.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 31, @10:13AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 31, @10:13AM (#1172771)

      All science is equal, but some science is more equal than other.. science?

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by Opportunist on Saturday August 28, @09:31PM (24 children)

    by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday August 28, @09:31PM (#1171860)

    No longer we need bleach and deworming agents, we have a new champion!

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @09:50PM (23 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @09:50PM (#1171864)

      At least this one has a proposed mechanism of action and appears to work at sane doses. This study isn't perfect but I've seen people throw around worse. But if the actual doctors end up using it, does that mean the anti-vaxxers won't? I mean, they don't know the side effects and can't trust big pharma...

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:04PM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:04PM (#1171873)

        Hello Martian, fancy to see you in Earth Internet!

        Here on planet Earth, those of us who prefer to survive, tend to rely on word of mouth. People we know who recovered from this or that disease, recommend to us the doctors who treated them, and/or the medicines they used for the treatment. Those of us who lack medical knowledge of their own, also consult with relatives or friends who do have some.

        Do things work totally differently on Mars?

        • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday August 29, @12:04AM

          by Tork (3914) on Sunday August 29, @12:04AM (#1171897)

          Here on planet Earth, those of us who prefer to survive, tend to rely on word of mouth. People we know who recovered from this or that disease, recommend to us the doctors who treated them, and/or the medicines they used for the treatment.

          I think he was asking about those people who apparently know Willy Wonka, Kermit the Frog, and Jim Halpert.

          --
          Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Sunday August 29, @12:35AM (6 children)

          by Opportunist (5545) on Sunday August 29, @12:35AM (#1171905)

          Oh please, boomer, get with the times. You don't rely on relatives, today you turn to YouTubers and Twitter for medical advice.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @11:28AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @11:28AM (#1172021)

            Pfft YouTube and Twitter are sooo MySpace grandpa, now we use TikTok for our needs.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:55PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:55PM (#1172059)

              OMG tiktoc your soooo old what ru lik 19 or somethng?

              • (Score: 1) by pTamok on Sunday August 29, @06:12PM (2 children)

                by pTamok (3042) on Sunday August 29, @06:12PM (#1172072)

                So fake. Anyone investigating youth culture knows they don't use punctuation - its regarded as rude.

                • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday August 30, @09:19AM (1 child)

                  by Opportunist (5545) on Monday August 30, @09:19AM (#1172266)

                  Then why do you use it boomer we have identified you because anyone chill these days uses run on sentences without period or comma which makes the whole crap really hard to read if you happen to know a thing or two about grammar but then who does because ... damn this message is too long doesn't fit in a tweet anymore

                  • (Score: 1) by pTamok on Monday August 30, @08:45PM

                    by pTamok (3042) on Monday August 30, @08:45PM (#1172511)

                    Samuel Beckett was obviously chill: How it is (1964) (Comment c'est) is entirely without punctuation for 147 pages.

                    It's cute watching young people believe they are doing something new.

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 30, @02:01PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 30, @02:01PM (#1172324) Journal

            don't rely on relatives, today you turn to YouTubers and Twitter for medical advice.

            And legal advice.

            --
            In order to make Halloween scary this year, children are ordered NOT to wear masks.
        • (Score: 2) by driverless on Sunday August 29, @05:18AM (1 child)

          by driverless (4770) on Sunday August 29, @05:18AM (#1171963)

          those of us who prefer to survive, tend to rely on word of mouth.

          It's not their mouths that most of the people providing Covid advice in places like FB are talking out of...

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:57PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:57PM (#1172060)

            Word of ass?

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday August 28, @10:48PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday August 28, @10:48PM (#1171882)

        Me, personally, my blood panel suggests that I might try to reduce my triglycerides anyway... the primary "side effect" of using Fenofibrate to head off a cytokine storm would likely be it's primary intended use: reduction of serum levels triglycerides and cholesterols.

        --
        John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:43AM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:43AM (#1171908)

        But if the actual doctors end up using it, does that mean the anti-vaxxers won't?

        Correct!

        There is one thing I have come to understand about right-wingers: they love death. They love weapons. They love spreading misinformation about life-saving technologies. Hell, they even love mistaking their own misinformation for truth! The more death the better!

        I expect the Christian mullahs to start quoting Bible passages from the archaic and otherwise problematic anyway KJV that show why the devil will eat your soul if you take this medicine instead of bleach injections or hydroxychloroquine. I heard that fenofibrate will make men grow breasts faster than soy. Etc, etc.

        Well, maybe. The only thing that's really certain is that this won't be a $15 drug for much longer. And I guess we just live with this being endemic. After all, if you catch it, you just have to get a few $10,000 injections of TriCor™ and you'll be fine.

        Shit. That means I have to start working from the office again soon.

        • (Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:16AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:16AM (#1171916)

          There is one thing I have come to understand about lefties: you love lying.

          That one thing is enough to completely disregard all the spam you produce.

          The height of hilarity is, you are all too dumb to understand the fact.

          • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday August 29, @04:29PM (2 children)

            by Tork (3914) on Sunday August 29, @04:29PM (#1172049)

            The height of hilarity is, you are all too dumb to understand the fact.

            Well you got a point there... you lot definitely have failed to prove that "fact".

            --
            Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @08:24PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @08:24PM (#1172101)

              Well, you here have proven all three points just perfectly in one sentence. Thanks!

              • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday August 29, @09:01PM

                by Tork (3914) on Sunday August 29, @09:01PM (#1172105)
                Easy to do when you rely on unverified assertions. ;)
                --
                Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:54AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:54AM (#1171925)

          Who do you think JK Rowling modelled Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters on? Yes, the British conservative party. Maggie, "Let them eat Spotted Dick" Thatcher, and company. And now, Eric Clapton. Right-wingers do not just love death, they are death, destroyers of worlds! Look upon their Stupid, and despair!

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:37AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:37AM (#1171934)

            I see your masters have now put Eric Clapton on the hate list. Was his participation in "Stand and Deliver" last year not sufficient to trigger the unpersoning?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @03:22PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @03:22PM (#1172041)

              Eric Clapton put himself on the "I'm a racist beyond hope of reasoning with" list a very long time ago. Rock Against Racism was formed in 1976, mostly in response to his very visible, very public, very amplified racist rantings to large audiences.

            • (Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday August 30, @12:39PM

              by epitaxial (3165) on Monday August 30, @12:39PM (#1172294)

              "Not just leave the hall, leave our country... I don't want you here, in the room or in my country," he said in part.

              "The Black w—s and c—s and Arabs and f—ing Jamaicans don't belong here, we don't want them here," Clapton added on stage then, using blatant racist slurs. "This is England, this is a white country, we don't want any Black w—s and c—s living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome."

              The rant went on as he called England "a white country" made "for white people."

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:01PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:01PM (#1172061)

            Eric Claptout should be grateful for any social media mentions whatsoever. For you non-boomers out there, he was an old guitarist that your grandparents may have listened to on the gramophone.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:05AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:05AM (#1171951)

          I heard that fenofibrate will make men grow breasts faster than soy

          Well, that outhouse to at least keep the incels off the streets and busy playing with their new toys …

          Seriously though, as much as they bitch and moan about the latest vaccine mandates, it's mostly performative - after they've bitched and moaned enough they're going to get the shots rather than lose their jobs and being barred from most places. Just like they moved the goalposts when the FDA gave full appoval to the vaccines, they'll move them sideways to claim some sort of "we resisted as long as humanly possible " rather than admit they were wrong. But expect a lot of fake side effects and malingering.

  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @09:53PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @09:53PM (#1171867)

    AMAZING new cure for the common cold! Will cure any cold in only a week, or at most seven days! Endorsed by celebrities, and Eric Clapton!! Get yours now!

    • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday August 28, @10:01PM

      by Gaaark (41) on Saturday August 28, @10:01PM (#1171872) Journal

      Pancresta: brought to you by REFRIGERATOR MEG!!!! WOOOO!!

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:42PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:42PM (#1171878)

    Jew them down to $5 and we'll talk.

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:44PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @10:44PM (#1171880)
      Yeah, we wanna make sure the price is in range of incels, too.
      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @11:47PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 28, @11:47PM (#1171892)

        "in range of incels' mothers"

        ftfy

        • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Sunday August 29, @11:03PM

          by Opportunist (5545) on Sunday August 29, @11:03PM (#1172123)

          And mothers, remember: You don't need to vaccinate all your kids.

          Only the ones you want to keep.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Snotnose on Saturday August 28, @10:56PM (3 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Saturday August 28, @10:56PM (#1171885)

    It will show up as $1500 on one bill or another.

    --
    If at first you don't succeed use a bottle opener. It's probably not a screw off cap.
    • (Score: 2) by stretch611 on Sunday August 29, @01:10AM

      by stretch611 (6199) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 29, @01:10AM (#1171914)

      Not just the hospital... Everywhere.

      All makers of this drug will have already increased the wholesale cost.

      Next week the price will go up again due to "shortages."

      --
      I think; therefore, I am vaccinated.
    • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 29, @01:44AM (1 child)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Sunday August 29, @01:44AM (#1171921)

      This is Israel. Socialized medicine.

      • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:35AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:35AM (#1171978)

        > This is Israel. Socialized medicine for all the chosen

  • (Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:04AM (31 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:04AM (#1171898)

    Treatments are needed because the vaccines aren't good enough. People that are vaccinated are now getting COVID, and there are people who can't take the vaccine for health reasons (pregnant, immunocompromised, etc), and because the vaccines have a much higher rate of serious side effects as compared to the traditional vaccines we have all had.

    The vaccines are by themselves not enough to beat COVID.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:21AM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:21AM (#1171900)
      Nobody ever said vaccines were to treat covid. They're a preventative only. Just look at all the antivaxxer people dying in ICUs begging for the vaccine and being told it's too late.
      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:07AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:07AM (#1171913)

        Tell it to Jesse Jackson and Melissa Joan Hart. Both fully vaxxed, both in hospital with COVID. They are not the only ones.

      • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:39AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:39AM (#1171965)

        This fool clearly swallowed the propaganda. Be sure to take the booster every 4 months as recommended!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:38AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:38AM (#1171979)

          I take "the booster" at least twice a week.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:28AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @12:28AM (#1171902)

      The people that are vaccinated now and have contracted the delta variant are not ending up in hospital. Essentially all of the ER beds with COVID patients are unvaccinated. And the vast majority of them are not the ones who can't normally take the vaccine.

      But I'm pretty sure you knew all that already.

      You are right that the vaccines by themselves are not enough to beat COVID, but they are enough to get us back to a normal life provided the people who can take the vaccine actually do.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DrkShadow on Sunday August 29, @12:41AM (15 children)

      by DrkShadow (1404) on Sunday August 29, @12:41AM (#1171907)

      Vaccines, by themselves, are absolutely enough to beat covid.

      That was the point of them, and that is what they've accomplished.

      wtf?

      • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:04AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:04AM (#1171911)

        You are wrong. Fully vaccinated people are getting the Delta COVID variant.
        The vaccine helps, but there is still a nonnegligible chance you'll catch COVID anyway, the so-called "breakthrough" infection. For just a couple high profile examples, look at these public figures: Melissa Joan Hart and Jesse Jackson...

        https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/20/entertainment/melissa-joan-hart/index.html [cnn.com]
        https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jesse-jackson-fairly-hospital-covid-79624289 [go.com]

        I am sorry if you have wrapped your identity up into the vaccine is a magic solution camp.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by HiThere on Sunday August 29, @03:02AM (7 children)

        by HiThere (866) on Sunday August 29, @03:02AM (#1171944) Journal

        It's not yet clear how effective the vaccines are against the delta strain. They certainly appear to help, but since I personally know of one "breakthrough" case where a vaccinated person got COVID, and I don' t know that many people, I conclude that they probably aren't that rare.

        OTOH, I don't know how serious a case the person got. HIPAA keeps that kind of information from spreading. (Actually, I don't know who the person is, just that it's one of around 150 people who live in the same building that I do.)

        So don't think that the vaccine is a magic shield against COVID, at least not against the delta strain. It helps a LOT, but that's not the same thing.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday August 29, @12:59PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday August 29, @12:59PM (#1172027)

          HIPAA keeps that kind of information from spreading.

          HIPAA protects health information of individuals from spreading, your political leaders are "shaping" the aggregate information that is released to protect their agendae.

          HIPAA doesn't do anything about information that individuals choose to release. We have several friends-of-friends who have contracted COVID (presumably delta) in spite of being fully vaccinated, some report mild symptoms, some severe, I believe one or two hospitalized.

          The reasonable number I have heard is that the Pfizer vaccine confers an 8x increase in immune response, on average. So: in a population of 100,000 fully vaccinated, you should expect transmission rates, severe cases, hospitalizations and deaths to be approximately 1/8th of what they would be in a population of 100,000 unvaccinated. In a population of 100,000 that is 1/2 fully vaccinated and 1/2 not, that translates to an R value of approximately 0.56x the R value of an unvaccinated population - which would have been good enough to stop the original COVID strain, but doesn't seem good enough for delta.

          The thing I'm super-pissed about the whole episode is: if we had taken social distancing, masking, WFH, lockdown, etc. seriously a month earlier, and kept it serious until the vaccination rollout was 40% or better, I don't think we'd even have a delta variant, at least not until many years later than we got it.

          --
          John Galt is a selfish crybaby [huffpost.com].
        • (Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Sunday August 29, @12:59PM (5 children)

          by TheGratefulNet (659) on Sunday August 29, @12:59PM (#1172028)

          its more than 2x (200%) chance of hospitalization if non-vaxed, due to delta.

          for those with 2 doses of vax, there was NO difference between alpha and delta, in terms of being in the hosp.

          (dr. john campbell, analysis source)

          --
          "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday August 29, @01:37PM (4 children)

            by HiThere (866) on Sunday August 29, @01:37PM (#1172029) Journal

            If there's no difference in the probability of catching COVID, then the vaccine was very oversold. While I *do* believe it was oversold, I don't believe that it was THAT oversold. Several instances reported second hand cause me to suspect that the delta strain is much more likely to infect someone who has been vaccinated than were the earlier strains. This is, of course, based on anecdotal data, and therefore shouldn't be given any certainty, but studies have been wrong before now, and I don't know his study. (I don't follow youtube.) Since he also pushes ivermectin I consider his more dubious than I did before looking him up.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Sunday August 29, @02:40PM

              by TheGratefulNet (659) on Sunday August 29, @02:40PM (#1172035)

              re: cambell, he follows the numbers and when he finds numbers, he wont dispute them. watch him over time and he admits when earlier analysis was wrong (many dont do that).

              he takes his numbers from the british equiv of the cdc, and for the US, the cdc. so I trust that when he directly quotes them, its real data. direct quotes are in italics, on his walk-thrus (he uses old school paper since, well, he's from that era).

              dont trust 100% of anyone's words, but more often than not, this guy is worth listening to. imho of course.

              --
              "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Opportunist on Monday August 30, @09:25AM (2 children)

              by Opportunist (5545) on Monday August 30, @09:25AM (#1172268)

              Frankly, if the vaccine changes an infection from "start praying for survival, and if you survive, start praying for no lasting effects" to "feeling kinda woozy for a few days like with a cold", I wouldn't consider it oversold.

              • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday August 30, @01:41PM (1 child)

                by HiThere (866) on Monday August 30, @01:41PM (#1172315) Journal

                Unfortunately, you still have to "pray for no lasting effects" even if the case is milder. How often is a question I haven't seen answered. Actually, I haven't seen it answered even if you aren't vaccinated, except that we know lasting effects like death are much more common in that case.

                --
                Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday August 30, @02:00PM

                  by Opportunist (5545) on Monday August 30, @02:00PM (#1172323)

                  Well, at least once you're dead your condition is about as stable as it could possibly be...

      • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 29, @07:36AM (3 children)

        by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Sunday August 29, @07:36AM (#1171990)

        Vaccines were enough to send smallpox back to the Hell it came from. We will have to work harder against COVID because it's more contagious.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:04PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:04PM (#1172062)

          I'll get right on that boss *cracks open beer*

        • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Monday August 30, @09:22AM (1 child)

          by Opportunist (5545) on Monday August 30, @09:22AM (#1172267)

          It's more that back with Smallpox people knew it's serious because everyone knew someone who died from it, so people were a LOT more eager to get vaccinated when the vaccine became available. Hell, my grandma was about to kill the clerk when he told her that I wouldn't get vaccinated against smallpox because "it's over". She was actually old enough to remember very well what a killer it is.

          Maybe we need that kind of information again before people start getting smarter.

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday September 01, @05:42AM

            by dry (223) on Wednesday September 01, @05:42AM (#1173144) Journal

            There was lots of vaccine denial back then too, even with all the people dying. The poorer minorities, the religious who figured God would protect them, etc. Eventually laws were passed forcing vaccination and that is a large part of the reason that there is no more smallpox.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by stretch611 on Sunday August 29, @01:49AM (1 child)

      by stretch611 (6199) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 29, @01:49AM (#1171924)

      Wow... how many lies can you fit in a single sentence...

      People that are vaccinated are now getting COVID

      While true, this is only happening to about 1/6 or 1/8th the chance of unvaccinated individuals. And vaccinated people that get covid require hospitalization and/or die at a rate 1/25th of the unvaccinated. However, without the rapid spread among the unvaccinated, the virus would quickly burn out.

      there are people who can't take the vaccine for health reasons (pregnant, immunocompromised, etc)

      barely true, but extremely misguided.

      People who can get vaccinated that don't; increase the risks of everyone that can't get vaccinated. This is why we havev a history of vaccine mandates in this country... to protect those that can't be vaccinated. But, selfish assholes tend to not care about the effects of their own actions on others.

      As for pregnant women, from the CDC [cdc.gov]:

      • COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for all people 12 years and older, including people who are pregnant, breastfeeding, trying to get pregnant now, or might become pregnant in the future.
      • Evidence about the safety and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccination during pregnancy has been growing. These data suggest that the benefits of receiving a COVID-19 vaccine outweigh any known or potential risks of vaccination during pregnancy.
      • There is currently no evidence that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems in women or men.
      • Pregnant and recently pregnant people are more likely to get severely ill with COVID-19 compared with non-pregnant people.
      • Getting a COVID-19 vaccine can protect you from severe illness from COVID-19.

      So, being pregnant means that you have more reasons to get the vaccine, not the opposite which is what you claimed.

      As for the immunocompromised, They already have the option for a 3rd dose(in the US)... That hardly means that they should not get the vaccine. Of course there are many different ways for your immune system to be compromised, but these people should speak with their dr. first... (and not an internet quack.)

      because the vaccines have a much higher rate of serious side effects as compared to the traditional vaccines we have all had.

      A blatant lie. The covid vaccines have had the lowest rates of severe side effects than any vaccine in history.

      The vaccines are by themselves not enough to beat COVID.

      Well, you have one bit of truth here. We also need the unvaccinated idiots to pull their head out of their ass and get the vaccine before we can beat covid. (or wait for the darwin principle to fix that part.)

      --
      I think; therefore, I am vaccinated.
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @11:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @11:54AM (#1172022)

        Parent said:

        because the vaccines have a much higher rate of serious side effects as compared to the traditional vaccines we have all had.
        A blatant lie. The covid vaccines have had the lowest rates of severe side effects than any vaccine in history.

        End quote.

        Stop shilling.

        Other vaccines did not result in myocarditis (heart inflammation) esp. in young people
        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/myocarditis.html [cdc.gov]
        nor miscarriages in pregnant people nor in some cases death of the person receiving the vaccine. The side effects from these COVID vaccines are a thousand times worse than other vaccines.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 29, @07:33AM (1 child)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Sunday August 29, @07:33AM (#1171988)

      > the vaccines have a much higher rate of serious side effects as compared to the traditional vaccines we have all had.

      False, and outside the range of honest mistake.

      We know the rate of serious side effects now, and it's measured in "per million".

      Further, being pregnant is not a reason to skip the vaccines. The OB/GYN professional societies are telling their members to "enthusiastically recommend" COVID vaccines to people who are gestating or about to be.

      • (Score: 1, Troll) by PocketSizeSUn on Monday August 30, @01:13PM

        by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Monday August 30, @01:13PM (#1172307)

        We know the rate of serious side effects now, and it's measured in "per million".
        No ... it is measure in millions.
        As in many millions, so far we *know* the vaccine IFR > covid IFR

        I am glad you got the vax though. In fact I encourage all the commie / socialist Biden voters to vax it up

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:51PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @01:51PM (#1172031)

      Oh shut the fuck up, astroturfing shitstain.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 30, @02:10PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 30, @02:10PM (#1172327) Journal

      The vaccines are by themselves not enough to beat COVID.

      Also try mask wearing, isolating and social distancing.

      (Although mask wearing is more helpful to you if other people are the ones wearing the masks.)

      --
      In order to make Halloween scary this year, children are ordered NOT to wear masks.
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday August 29, @01:42AM (7 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday August 29, @01:42AM (#1171920) Journal

    The vaccines are definitely worth getting, but they're leaky to the Delta (and likely Lambda...) variant, i.e., they don't provide sterilizing immunity. And besides which, a vaccine is only one part of a competent anti-disease strategy; ideally we'd have treatment, vaccination, support, physical/mechanical prevention (distance and mask, people!) and social care, this last being "people who need medicine can get it" and "people who need 2 weeks off because corona is kicking their asses will still have a job to go back to."

    I am only a pharmacy technician, not a pharmacist or a doctor, but I've been obsessively reading the literature. 14 of 15 patients is, as someone pointed out above, an *extremely* strong signal even in an admittedly small sample; the next thing to do, post-haste, is to trial this with n > 1000 at minimum.

    One emerging pattern all this Covid hoopla is bringing to light is that heart disease, diabetes, ischaemic strokes, calcified arteries, etc, appear to be end-stage manifestations of metabolic syndrome. T2DM and hyperlipidaemia, whether cholesterol or triglycerides, are indicators of poor prognosis all out of proportion to what you'd expect for a virus. Given this, and given the structure of the spike protein itself, I'm not surprised fenofibrate is helping. I would guess metformin would also be useful, and suspect that the occasional, unpredictable reports of success for HCQ, macrolide antibiotics, or what have you, simply come down to preventing the body's inflammatory response from going apeshit and liquefying itself.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Sunday August 29, @01:49AM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Sunday August 29, @01:49AM (#1171923)

      I seem to remember reading hopeful things about metformin but have not given them a complete or critical look.

      There is a wrinkle to defense in depth that's easy to overlook. If we had a good proven treatment, the ethics of exposing volunteers to SARS COV 2 in experiments would be easier to cope with. Then we could answer all sorts of important questions where population studies leave us uncertain.

      Hope this works. My news feed does seem to have a constant stream of Israeli miracle cures but I'll trust data.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:59AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:59AM (#1171943)

      From start of vaccine tests, so before Delta, all I heard is that the (experimentally, now some officially) approved ones did allow people to catch and spread. The effect was that the symptoms and probability of death were reduced, yet still >0%. Useful, but still a temporary patch, IMO. Where I live (not USA) some old people communities have been hit recently: everyone vaccinated... still a notable number of deaths. Great demostration of them being a duct tape patch, not a proper fix.

      Thus I always wondered about the herd immunity numbers, as the formula depends on subjects not spreading the virus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#Theoretical_basis [wikipedia.org] As time passed, the "number of vaccinated that will make the miracle" has gone up and up, with some scientists saying it is already impossible. Smells like another PR disaster like the "no masks" at the start in USA. Here gov. internal reports about measures to take in Febraury/March 2020 were ignored. Fuckers, if you lie once in serious things or get caught looking to other side, your trustability becomes zero for a long time. Yet we have to put with leaders' circus, because no modern democracy has a "you are fired" pacific method.

      Luckly for all of us, some scientists are working on other vaccines, with "sterilizing" being one of the targets. Producers of vaccines currently in use seem to be happy with a third shot, promising small tweaks if needed (fourth shot? fifth? two times a year? four? monthly?), and cashing the profits (EU is paying more for next round). Of course, fuck Third World, even if that means they will become a reservoir or a "kitchen" for new variants.

      And people wonder why conspiracies run rampant... start working in cures not "subscriptions" and treat people like adults. Trustable or GTFO.

      All I got clear from the past nearly two years is that the West is lead by a bunch of retards, some of them chanelling Gordon Gecko. We could have stopped it but fucked it hard instead. Australia loves parties as they do in Italy or Spain. Vietnam is not an island and is in direct contact with China. Etc, etc. It was doable, just required a bit of brains.

      Who I am kidding... Afghanistan just demostrated how low the pants are among the West leaders and agencies (ground low, or "on head" high, your pick). "1.5 years to fall", "90 days", "oooh, they are in front of our troops now". Everyone run!

      We better wise up, or the West is in for a rough ride. And rich people should not expect privileges by next world super power, all the contrary. So start moving the muppets, I mean leaders, before it is too late and what keeps you rich goes down for good.

      • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Sunday August 29, @12:05PM (2 children)

        by Opportunist (5545) on Sunday August 29, @12:05PM (#1172023)

        Treat people like adults? As in, as if they can be trusted to do what's necessary for all of us to have the greatest chance for survival? Get out of here, you know that this is doomed to fail.

        Imagine what would have happened if they told the truth about the mask problem from last year's Spring. As in "Ok, folks, here's the thing: Wearing masks would be a really great way to stop the spread, but due to our just-in-time mentality of storage, i.e. not holding storage whatsoever, we're facing the problem that there ain't enough for everyone. And if you now start to buy them like there's no tomorrow, we won't have enough of them for the medical staff that really needs them to do their job. So, yeah, we're working on increasing the production, but could you hold off buying them 'til we have enough of them?"

        What do you think would have happened if they announced this? Ok, granted, they could have softened the blow by adding another nugget of information:

        "But you see, wearing those masks protects mainly others from you if you're infected, not you from getting infected"

        Then nobody would've bothered to get them. Unfortunately also when we had enough of them, because, hey, screw you.

        People are selfish, ignorant assholes. And you know it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:09PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:09PM (#1172064)

          Maybe if they framed it like in one of those movies where they need heros to volunteer for certain death to save humanity? There would be quite a few stepping forward to not wear masks in order to save the rest of us. Suckers.

          • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Sunday August 29, @07:22PM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Sunday August 29, @07:22PM (#1172085)

            Well, that's basically what the anti-vax morons do. Ok, not saving humanity, just prolonging my comfortable home office time, but hey, I take what I can get.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by PocketSizeSUn on Monday August 30, @01:08PM (1 child)

      by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Monday August 30, @01:08PM (#1172305)

      The COVID-19 vaccines are:
        - Not vaccines
        - The leakiest vaccines every injected into a human population
        - The first vaccines ever injected into a human population *during* an *active* *demic event.

      The vaccines are causing the mutations .. you say you are a 'pharma' tech ... me thinks you a just a 'pharma' shill ...

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 30, @04:49PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday August 30, @04:49PM (#1172369) Journal

        You don't "thinks" at all. And your projector is showing.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:07AM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @02:07AM (#1171927)

    It has become evident that we cannot eradicate this virus. We will have to live with it, like cold, flu, etc.

    Vaccines and treatment drugs are our defense, but it's mitigation, not eradication.

    Bad news: more and more such virus(i?) will crop up and spread out much faster than the medieval days.

    Good news: mRNA vaccine tech seems to be proven tech with rapid development time.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:48AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @06:48AM (#1171982)

      Nature will discover new ways to take advantage of humans living in higher and higher density. Life must go forward.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @08:11AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @08:11AM (#1172000)

      Bad news: more and more such virus(i?) will crop up and spread out much faster than the medieval days.

      What if we shut down the Wuhan virus labs?

      • (Score: 2) by choose another one on Sunday August 29, @12:41PM (1 child)

        by choose another one (515) on Sunday August 29, @12:41PM (#1172025)

        > What if we shut down the Wuhan virus labs?

        They'll just move to Kabul. Watch China become the Taliban's only financial friend in near future, as they try where Russia and the West have failed.

        What happens if we shut down the Kabul virus labs? Um, yeah, right.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:12PM (#1172065)

          The best labs for these viruses is where they actually come from in nature: dense population living in close contact with animals. So... 3rd world shitholes. Or Kentucky.

  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @03:12AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @03:12AM (#1171945)

    Relevant to these discussions.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNt4NIQ7FTA&t=216s [youtube.com]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @05:14PM (#1172066)

      Rik Astley not sounding too good these days.

    • (Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday August 30, @12:45PM

      by epitaxial (3165) on Monday August 30, @12:45PM (#1172295)

      That elderly man who is still jealous that a black man could play guitar better than himself?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:43PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29, @04:43PM (#1172057)

    Intentionally contracting COVID to asphyxiate yourself just to get off is some deranged and fucked up kinky shit. Damn, why can't you just be normal kinky like the rest of us?

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