France suspends 3,000 unvaccinated health workers without pay:
Thousands of health workers across France have been suspended without pay for failing to get vaccinated against Covid-19 ahead of a deadline this week, Health Minister Olivier Veran said Thursday.
France's national public health agency estimated last week that roughly 12 percent of hospital staff and around six percent of doctors in private practices have yet to be vaccinated.
"Some 3,000 suspensions were notified yesterday to employees at health centres and clinics who have not yet been vaccinated," Veran told RTL radio.
He added that "several dozens" had turned in their resignations rather than sign up for the jabs.
That compares with 2.7 million health workers overall, Veran said, adding that "continued healthcare is assured."
"A large number of these suspensions are only temporary" and mainly concern support staff, with "very few nurses" among those told to stay home, he said.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @05:51PM (147 children)
They are trying to downplay the numbers, but they are significant. 12% of hospital staff, and 6% of doctors. That means, roughly 10% of people on the front lines, fighting the pandemic, remain unconvinced of the necessity of the vaccine. That kinda vindicates the attitude of the wider population who don't want the vax.
(Score: 5, Touché) by epitaxial on Friday September 17 2021, @06:05PM (79 children)
In other words 94% of doctors in France think the vaccine is safe and effective.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @06:18PM (36 children)
More precisely, 94% of doctors in France either believe that the vax is safe and effective, or they have been pressured into taking the vax.
(Score: 4, Funny) by epitaxial on Friday September 17 2021, @06:58PM (34 children)
I know most of the accounts here are trolls but you're not putting in much effort.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @09:36PM (33 children)
Effort? Trolls?
Simple facts. The current vaxxes are all new tech, made in an all new way, and were all pretty damned untested before being put into production and distribution.
Not yet an established fact, but it's looking like more people will die of complications from the COVID vaccine this year, than will die of gunshot wounds inflicted with "assault rifles", including the AR-15 and the AK-47. Yes, you have a better chance of being killed by the vax, than you have of being killed with an AR-15.
(Score: 2) by VacuumTube on Friday September 17 2021, @09:52PM
"it's looking like more people will die of complications from the COVID vaccine this year, than will die of gunshot wounds inflicted with "assault rifles", including the AR-15 and the AK-47"
Perhaps, but that's still far fewer than the number of un-vaccinated people who will die of covid.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Friday September 17 2021, @10:30PM (4 children)
Meanwhile, 100x more people will die from being unvaccinated than vaccinated. So what's your point?
I for one am sick of the "my kid had appendicitis and had to call 51 hospitals", "my dad had a heart attack and died looking for an ICU bed", etc. IMHO, the hospital protocol is simple.
A) You always have 1 ICU bed available
B) If an unvaxxed covid patient comes in with only 1 bed available, tough titties. Don't care how you decide who goes, but you will still have 1 ICU bed open within the hour.
C) If a non-covid health emergency shows up, or a vaccinated covid, then they get that 1 open bed.
D) Goto A, upon which time staff picks 1 unvaccinated Covid patient to go to the waiting room to call 51 hospitals looking for a bed.
Problem solved. The death rate goes up, but only for the stupid. For the rest of us emergency care remains pretty much as it used to be.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @10:45PM (1 child)
Hmmmm. And, in real life, you don't get to make any such decision. You'll always be the guy at the back of the line, wishing the line would move a little faster. That's just the way sheep herds work.
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Friday September 17 2021, @11:21PM
Actually, if you want to put me in front of that line it will be an ez peazy decision for me. Especially if you pay me 6 figures for what to me is common sense.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:43AM
Your dad should have eaten healthier food - choices
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:03AM
Careful, or they will start calling you a 'libtard fascist', lol
But more fun, this is what was discussed in the libtard state of Texas recently,
https://www.wired.com/story/would-it-be-fair-to-treat-vaccinated-covid-patients-first/ [wired.com]
But the sad thing is, when you have these COVID idiots blocking ICU beds, then it's not just ICU that is affected. The entire healthcare system is fucked up. People are dying because there are no cancer surgeries. Heart patients are dying because they cannot get a pace maker fitted. Transplant patients are dying because there are no transplants. It affects everything since doctors are sucked into the ICU to care for COVID-idiots instead. At 80m unvaccinated in US alone, that means 1 MILLION hospital beds could be blocked for a week or two. Good luck to the rest of the vaccinated -- hopefully you will not need healthcare because you are probably going to be fucked by the COVID-idiots anti-vaxxers proclaiming how it's a fake flu.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @11:52PM
Troll. Not a very good troll, but troll nonetheless. Poor Runsaway!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @01:36AM (1 child)
Stupid is as stupid does.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:38AM
People have been eating all the parts of animals for our entire history. It's only recently that meat has been available enough for non-rich people to discriminate about which parts they eat.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:21AM
Indeed, were. After hundreds of millions of vaccines being injected, they are now pretty damned tested.
Statistics imbecile ammosexual's wild dream: try your guns on the entire world's population, neh?
On the same line I can say more people will die of complications from Covid vaccines this year than will die from alien anal probing. Your assertion is absolutely irrelevant, no matter of the degree of truth in it, which is itself rather dubious.
(Score: 2, Troll) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:09AM (6 children)
Runaway is an ignorant moron. An Arkansasian, to be precise. He does not understand anything of which he speaks, but he certainly has ungrounded opinions. He is most often completely wrong. But, like grandpa, it is usually best to just to pass him by, and say, "Oh, yeah, of course, Runaway!" and hope he goes back to sleep. In only a few years, him and his fellow Fox News viewers will all have gone to the great Reagan Revival in the Sky, where tax breaks for the rich will produce economic prosperity, and the end of welfare will end racism in America! And, of course, being dead, no one will realize they are actually in hell. Runaway, you are going to hell.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:28AM (5 children)
I am obviously still the center of your universe.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @08:15AM (3 children)
I am an educator, Runaway. People like your represent the failure of my profession. So of course I worry about you! How did you end up so stupid, in spite of our best efforts? Well, now, all I can do is try to counter the damage you do by spreading stupid, by providing actual facts and truths.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 18 2021, @08:34AM (1 child)
You would be a failure if I didn't exist. You would be a failure in any educational system, anywhere, anytime. The real aristarchus would have had you thrashed and thrown out. You don't get to blame anything on me.
How 'bout, since you claim to be an educator, you start putting educational stuff in your journal? Maybe submit some educational material? Stop being an activist douche.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @11:21AM
Runaway does not really exist? Is he a Ruskie shill, or a mere puppet of sock? Why cannot he learn, after so many soylentils have tried to edumacate him?
(Score: 2, Troll) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:36PM
How did you end up so stupid, in spite of our best efforts?
Fox News and Facebook will give you an F brain every time.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @09:40AM
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by driverless on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:12AM (15 children)
Isn't it amazing how you can just invent any facts you want to support your argument?
Wait, Professor Trump, is that you?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:27AM (14 children)
Invent what facts? ~30,000 people die of gunshot wounds, annually. ~2% of those are attributed to rifles. No one has ever worked out how many of those 2% are inflicted with "assault rifles", but it seems to be low - let's say 10%.
Do the math, and you'll agree that you're more likely to die of complications from the COVID vax than you are to die of a wound from an assault rifle.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @08:18AM (2 children)
Ah, but how many Americans die from "unloaded COVID-19" every year? That is the statistic I would love to hear!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 18 2021, @08:38AM (1 child)
Research it, and get back to us. If you do a good enough job, maybe the editors will publish it on the front page.
And, FYI, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun. Only idiots believe any gun to be safe. If Jesus Christ, Mohammed, and the Buddha present you with an unloaded, safe, firearm, you clear the weapon for yourself, because you don't believe any of those assholes.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:42PM
Still wrong. NO gun is EVER unloaded, even if you unloaded it yourself. That's the first rule of gun safety. My dad told me he put a hole in his brother's wall with an unloaded rifle.
2: Never point a gun at anything you wouldn't want to shoot.
3: Never shoot anything you don't want to utterly destroy.
Jesus said "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword", and a gun is a modern sword. Statistics have proven him right, more than twice as many gun owners die from gunshots as non owners. I.e., owning a gun for personal protection is stupid. Owning one to hunt with is a completely different matter.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @09:44AM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @11:16AM (1 child)
Aren't most suicides Democrats? Of course, it doesn't really matter, because Democrats continue to vote after they die.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @04:48PM
Death cultist loves death, news at 11.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:40PM
About 1 in 100,000, by worse possible estimates. But reality is,
https://www.tctmd.com/news/rare-clotting-complication-seen-after-mrna-vaccine-case-report [tctmd.com]
So if everyone got the mRNA vaccine and the 1 per million people died, that would be 300. But in reality, almost no one died.
As for AR-15, it's only been used in many, many mass shootings.
https://twitter.com/adamcbest/status/1374189790623629313 [twitter.com]
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/22/fact-check-post-missing-context-ar-15-rifles-and-mass-shootings/7039204002/ [usatoday.com]
so while the total numbers are 'low' in comparison to suicides and gang violence, the terrorist attacks are nicely tailored for the AR-15.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle#Use_in_crime_and_mass_shootings [wikipedia.org]
And while the deaths caused by AR-15 continue to pile up every year, the ones caused by vaccine are one time since boosters are not going to be rolled out to everyone anyway.
Anyway, don't compare apples with porn stars. They are not the same things.
(Score: 2) by dry on Sunday September 19 2021, @02:19AM (6 children)
In Canada, there has been about 4 people die from vaccines, blood clots from Astra Zennaca, which might be more then died this year from assault weapons. In the USA with way more assault weapons and way less Astra Zennaca shots, I'd really like to see a proper citation and not people getting run over on the way home from the clinic.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 19 2021, @03:59AM (5 children)
https://undercurrents723949620.wordpress.com/2021/05/22/how-many-have-died-from-covid-vaccines/ [wordpress.com]
Let me emphasize that - In just four months, the COVID-19 vaccines have killed more people than all available vaccines combined from mid-1997 until the end of 2013 — a period of 15.5 years
You said,
That's a reasonable request. Alas, I cannot make any such guarantee. There may be some frivolous claims among those 11,000 dead. I can't know that, nor can you. But, we can also turn that around: how many reported COVID deaths were dead/dying anyway, and the death was attributed to COVID because there was a monetary incentive to do so.
The system is what it is - it tends to be slow in identifying frivolous claims. Still, the claims have been made. 11,000 dead Americans who put their faith in inadequately tested vaccinations that were rushed to market.
The CDC tends to downplay the adverse effects - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html [cdc.gov]
Even downplaying the numbers, CDC admits to 7653 reported deaths.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Sunday September 19 2021, @05:40AM (4 children)
Yes, 3,544 died after receiving their shots, but how many died from the shot and not getting runover by a bus? The medical problems with the mRNA vaccines are the rare allergy and a few cases of heart swelling. Meanwhile the hospitals here are overflowing with Covid patients and the nurses are getting really sick of phoning some 30 year olds family and telling them of their death.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 19 2021, @06:35AM (3 children)
Where did you get 3,544? CDC says 7653, while the other source says 11,000. You're a bit hung up on that bus thing - are you aware of any such instances? Anyone who is healthy, and goes in for a vaccination, then immediately gets sick (3 minutes to 3 weeks, really) is going to suspect the shot had something to do with it. That goes for infants, toddlers, children, teens, young adults, mature adults, and senior citizens alike. Driving under a bus or a tractor trailer? Not so much, unless you got dizzy on the way home from the doctor's office.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @04:51PM (1 child)
Yeah well you're hung up on that misinformation thing that makes you say stupid uneducated shit.
You do realize Fox and all your political leaders are vaxxd right? RIGHT? You're not S T U P I D are you?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @06:25PM
There's plenty of misinformation to go around, from China, from WHO, from CDC, from Fauci, from random Soylentils - the list goes on and on.
(Score: 2) by dry on Monday September 20 2021, @05:22AM
I thought I copied it from one of your earlier posts. The point is that getting hit by a bus while leaving the clinic can get you counted on that list. Also if you got infected with Covid on the way to the clinic, the vaccine won't help and you will be counted even though it was nothing to do with the vaccine.
Here in Canada, it turned out the AZ vaccine was somewhat dangerous, 1 in 100,000 or 1 in 600,000 developing blood clots with IIRC 4 deaths (the blood clots are quite treatable if caught in time). We stopped using them as the mRNA vaccines are safer. Various governments came to the same conclusion and I doubt that there is an international conspiracy as there is such a variety of governments.
Anyways even 11,000 vaccine deaths is nothing compared to the Covid deaths and there seems to be mostly unvaccinated 30-50 year olds dying here now as most of the older people are vaccinated. Then there are the long Covid sufferers, which seems to affect various parts of the body including the brain with a UK study showing a drop of a few IQ points after Covid.
Everyone who can get vaccinated getting vaccinated is one way back to normalcy, it's not perfect especially with the new variants but it's better then locking down and fucking all the small businesses and the poor sods working in the grocery stores and such. Is good for Amazon though
(Score: 2) by Pav on Saturday September 18 2021, @09:40PM
The doctors were from PRIVATE practices ie. not from the public health system.
I'd imagine most of these workers have come into contact with the virus by this time, and have actually caught the virus and see a (granted small) risk with virtually no benefit.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @06:19PM
Or, they don't think the vaccine is worse than losing their livelihood.
I would guess that in a country with socialized healthcare, healthcare workers don't have many options for employment.
(Score: 0, Troll) by stormreaver on Friday September 17 2021, @06:44PM (40 children)
That's an Appeal to Popularity logic error, and says nothing about whether the vaccines (which don't adhere to the traditional definition of a vaccine, but do adhere to the definition of gene therapy) are actually safe and effective.
My personal experience is that it's questionable at best. An otherwise healthy extended family member got the shot, then died shortly after. Another healthy relative got a bad case of Covid, stayed in bed for several days, then recovered no worse for wear. My entire family had nearly all of the Covid symptoms, was in and out of bed for a few days, then recovered no worse for wear.
This should be left entirely up to the individual.
(Score: 2) by drussell on Friday September 17 2021, @06:52PM (15 children)
In what way are the AstraZenica or J&J vaccines anything even remotely like "gene therapy?"
(Score: 0, Troll) by stormreaver on Friday September 17 2021, @07:16PM (14 children)
They contain none of the viral elements of Covid 19, but rather carry instructions telling DNA to produce something.
The definition of gene therapy (https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/cellular-gene-therapy-products/what-gene-therapy):
"Human gene therapy seeks to modify or manipulate the expression of a gene or to alter the biological properties of living cells for therapeutic use.
That's exactly what these drugs do: they alter biological processes of living cells for therapeutic use (RNA telling DNA to do something outside its normal scope).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by maxwell demon on Friday September 17 2021, @07:25PM (5 children)
Wrong. They don't tell DNA anything. They tell the ribosomes to produce something. Which is the job of the ribosomes (which themselves are not DNA, and never come into direct contact with DNA).
To make a computer analogy, you are claiming someone hacked the web server when he displays a local document in the web browser.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by stormreaver on Friday September 17 2021, @08:22PM (4 children)
Let's grant that, for the sake of argument. The end result is the same. It's still gene therapy.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @08:27PM
No, gene therapy is when you modify the host organism's genes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @09:05PM (2 children)
You don't get to "grant that" it is a fact.
The end result is not gene therapy at all.
"Gene therapy is a medical field which focuses on the genetic modification of cells to produce a therapeutic effect[1] or the treatment of disease by repairing or reconstructing defective genetic material"
"mRNA vaccines are also not commonly considered a form of gene therapy, as they do not alter the patient's genome."
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy [wikipedia.org]
As the other response noted, gene therapy modifies your DNA, mRNA vaccines use mRNA to have ribosomes construct the antibodies. mRNA does not stick around or affect your DNA, that is how we evolved and part of the genetic security system that ensures the integrity of our DNA.
It gets really tiresome having to constantly rehash high school level science, please do some proper research before accepting wild claims. Your ignorance on genetics is leading you to false conclusions and anxieties.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @09:49PM (1 child)
mRNA vaccines do not direct the ribosomes to construct antibodies. They direct the ribosomes to construct the proteins that the antibodies need to later recognize.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 20 2021, @06:10PM
Right, the ribosomes create the antigen that the antibodies learn to attack, thanks.
(Score: 2) by drussell on Friday September 17 2021, @07:34PM (1 child)
I think you're trying to describe the messenger RNA type vaccines like Phizer and Moderna but doing a very poor job due to an apparent lack of knowledge and understanding on the subject(s).
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday September 17 2021, @11:55PM
Hmm, a normal day on SoylentNews, I take it?
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @07:48PM (1 child)
Adenovirus can be vectored for gene therapy [nih.gov] or mRNA [ebsco.com] but in the case of AZ and J&J, they're viral vectored. [osu.edu] Simply put, the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is spliced to another (usually) [visiontimes.com] deactivated virus. These shots are not "gene therapy".
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @01:43AM
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Friday September 17 2021, @08:00PM (1 child)
The definition is defective; it is far too broad. For instance, providing a deficient nutrient alters the biological properties of living cells for therapeutic use.
(Score: 2) by stormreaver on Friday September 17 2021, @08:25PM
Let's grant that, for the sake of argument. It is irrelevant. This is the FDA definition, which is what counts.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 17 2021, @11:06PM
So does breathing.
So stop it.
Right now.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:45AM
Wtf which class did you fail dude. This is literally elementary.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 17 2021, @06:54PM (10 children)
It's an appeal to EXPERTISE.
An appeal to popularity would be a poll of randos on the street.
An appeal to authority (fallacy) would asking "scientists" with PHDs in Physics their opinions on Medicine.
Relying on EXPERTISE is when you ask the actual experts in the field. In this case 94% of the RELEVANT EXPERTS are vaccinated.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @09:51PM (9 children)
Yup. And, 9 out of 10 Soylentils are very vocal about their opions, making the vax very popular, indeed.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 17 2021, @11:08PM (8 children)
How did you get BSE from a raccoon?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @11:12PM
Same way you get oil from corn - squeeze really really hard?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:30AM (6 children)
Forget that, how the hell did he get the raccoon all the way up there? Holy shit.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @01:17AM (5 children)
Fuck off bitch
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:26AM
Winning that argument bigly, I see.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:49AM (3 children)
Make me :)
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:13AM (2 children)
Azuma Hazuki: +5, AC idiot? -4 See, you are one ahead! But still best to concede now, like Larry Elders, before you look like a Drumpf.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:56PM (1 child)
No, Ari, I don't think I will...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @04:57PM
Looks like a recent rash of bad clicks or SN code bugs, someone else said they replied to a comment and another reply didn't even exist yet, then their comment was threaded as a reply to the comment that didn't exist at the time. Re-read that 'ari' comment and it doesn't seem aimed at you.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @06:55PM (6 children)
There are many who argue that vaccination will stem the spread of COVID-19, but is that true? Aren't we hearing of vaccinated people who are COVID-19 positive?
The data show that most people benefit from vaccination, and even if you get COVID, you fare much better than you would without vaccination.
It's a broad-brush situation: vaccination is generally good for each and for all. Ideally we would know who might be worse off due to vaccination.
Also there are those who are naturally immune due to having had a viral infection (cold, etc.) that is very similar to COVID-19.
And there are those who are much less susceptible due to blood type, ethnicity, other medical factors (co-morbidities).
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @09:54PM (1 child)
Ideally, we would know in advance who might be harmed by all vaccinations. We don't live in an ideal world, and places like Children's hospital act as hospice care every year for children who ultimately die from every day, routine vaccinations.
(Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Monday September 20 2021, @05:32AM
My Province recently put out a very short list of those who would be harmed by the vaccines, basically those allergic to some of the ingredients such as polyethylene glycol and polysorbate 80. There was also a slightly longer list of those who needed to defer, I forget the reasons. Here's an article that does list them, https://globalnews.ca/news/8199359/reasons-cant-get-covid-vaccine-bc/ [globalnews.ca]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:19PM (1 child)
How is that flamebait? This system is as broken as ever. Hopefully the admins will curtail the completely incorrect downmods. Oh for the freedom of expression...
(Score: 2, Informative) by https on Saturday September 18 2021, @01:14AM
It includes deliberate lies, most quite thoroughly debunked. Just fucking boring. Any downmod is appropriate, including probably spam for that reason.
Offended and laughing about it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:28AM
That was the first hope. Since it wasn't to be, right now the most will argue that vaccination will reduce the number of deaths due to COVID-19. Which turns to be true and it's actually good enough ATM because it is all we have. Future may bring in a better solution, but significantly reducing the number of deaths is a good solution until then.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:36AM
Ok, should we not drive because we're hearing of auto accidents? Your observation indicates a fundamental ignorance of how vaccines work. They don't work by perfectly protecting the vaccinated from infection. They work by reducing the infectivity of those ill with the disease. As long as you can get less than one new infection from an existing covid infection, the disease will eventually go away in a matter of months. Vaccination does that, but only if you don't have a large unvaccinated population to continually get infected and breed new virus mutations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:25PM (3 children)
Ha! That's nothing! A distant family member of mine got the shot, and right after that won the lottery! They bought their own Caribbean island, that use to belong to some financier from NY, and are now living the dream, thanks to the vaccine!
Appeal to popularity is a fallacy, if you are citing the populace. If you are citing the population of experts, like medical doctors, it is no longer a fallacy. And, "post hoc" fallacies like yours are always fallacies, moreso when they are hasty generalizations from a single case.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:37AM (2 children)
Which might not have even happened, let us note.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:30AM (1 child)
Ooeewww! My man khallow! So perceptive! This could all be bullshit, like the studies funded by Exxon? Or Pfister? Big money talks, bro!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:58PM
Those are documented and descriptive. It doesn't prevent them from being bullshit, but at least you have a lot of information to work from to make judgments on their usefulness to you.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:45PM (1 child)
That's an Appeal to Popularity logic error
Incorrect. Popularity refers to the ignorant general public, doctors are well trained. If nine out of ten doctors say the vaccine is safe and effective and you believe the one who says it isn't, you're an idiot.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 20 2021, @04:47PM
Pedantry: a majority of doctors were ignoring or doubting aerosol contagion for quite a while.
It's definitionally impossible for non-experts to make expert-level judgement and understand expert-level data. When one expert disagrees, the non-experts still can't tell whether it's aerosol (where most experts admitted it was quite possible, but declined to advise on it because of a lack of evidence) or vaccine side effects (where most experts admit the odds of unexpected side effects at this point are quite unlikely).
Most laypeople also can't grok the foundational epistemic uncertainty in science, and some uncertainty psychologically allows them to reinforce priors from even strong data to the contrary.
A lack of baseline scientific literacy makes related conversations and education very very hard.
It's not the fault of the individuals really - society has failed them similarly to how society has failed illiterate or innumerate people.
One other small note: I suggest "Black people" instead of "blacks" when naming the group. It's more respectful and, like saying "people with autism" instead of "autistics", it recognizes that they're people with a shared trait.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Friday September 17 2021, @07:01PM (24 children)
no, it does NOT vindiate a damned thing.
first off, fuck the plague rats. fuck them, for ruining the return-to-normal life that we SHOULD HAVE HAD, but they had to be pussies about this.
note, its not just the rethuglicans; about 1/3 of every country has morans. our idiots just happen to be in the red states, primarily, but in other countries, they all have their crazies. damned shame that the human population wants to see itself DEAD like this. boggle!
the rest of us are trying to get on with our lives but the rats just wont let us have normalcy.
we gave you guys a chance to come along voluntarily. now that we've waited long enough, time to force the issue.
and if you still dont play along, your life will be made miserable in many ways (and there will be much rejoicing, yay...)
its really simple. get the jab or get the fuck out of society.
yes, its REALLY that simple.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @07:36PM (2 children)
"plague rats" "Rethuglicans".... God, you're still here. Labels and outrage have always been the simple way to feeling like you have made a valid argument, yes?
If you care to remember, nobody used to listen to you at work, well... maybe one, but you chased him off. Nobody listened to you on /., few listen to you here. I wonder why.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @01:59AM (1 child)
The good news is that as more areas bring in "most likely to survive" triage, the antivaxxers / republicans will be at the end of the line for treatment, as they will be both less likely to survive (both from being more likely to be obese and more likely to not be vaccinated), and more likely to further compromise their health byself medicating with bleach, collidal silver, horse deworming, thoughts and prayers, before seeking proper treatment.
And more of us are just fine with them drowning in their dead lungs quicker rather than taking up resources that can be used to save lives of people who showed a bit of responsibility towards their fellow humans by getting vaccinated to help not be plague rats.
I'd pull their plug to free up the bed for someone who didn't contribute to this shitshow without a second thought, because I would be helping save lives. The wilfully unvaccinated should be sent to hospices where they can fuck off and die.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:33AM
Runsaways plague rats. Checks out, seems legit.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @08:06PM (4 children)
Boy, if you think everybody taking the vaccine means coronavirus will go away, are you in for a shock:
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-world-leader-vaccine-booster-shots-hit-surge-covid-cases-1629310 [newsweek.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:44AM (1 child)
Boy, I don't think everybody taking the vaccine means coronavirus will go away, I think everybody taking the vaccine will make COVID-19 a common cold from which exceptionally few will die.
Now what?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:36AM
Or, I still have a scar on my arm, from a smallpox vaccination. Nobody gets smallpox any more. I wonder why? And we are nearly there with polio, but for some backwards places where they think the vaccine is going to make you a Democratic Rational Liberal Scientific person.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday September 19 2021, @05:11AM
Yes, I think that's exactly what would happen. Meanwhile in a situation where there is a large unvaccinated portion of the population, such as in the story you link, I wouldn't expect covid to go away.
(Score: 2) by dry on Monday September 20 2021, @06:07AM
Sure, earlier I saw they had 4 deaths (in one day) and your article says 50% of cases are in children, who are unvaccinated. There's something like 3.5 million Israelis not vaccinated and this Delta variant is contagious and different enough that the vaccines don't work quite as well.
Right now the important thing is get the load of the healthcare system, they're running out of people to run the ICU beds after 18 months of this shit.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @08:48PM (6 children)
You've been listening to DannyB's bullshit political rants too much. Less than half of the anti-vaxxers are Republicans.
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=44639&page=1&cid=1174425#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:00AM (5 children)
But, ALL of the Republicans are anti-vaxxers.
It's like the old observation by philosopher Bertrand Russell: "While it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is the case that all stupid people are conservative."
Actually, that may no longer hold, for Republicans, anyway, since George Will and all the other "intellectual" conservatives have left the party, and nothing is left but conspiracy theorists, insurrectionist rabble, and DeSantis.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:49AM (1 child)
You’re not as good at logic as you think you are - the person you quoted may have gotten it right - you did not
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:02AM
Or, you are not as smart as you think you are, and have gotten the logic wrong, only because you agreed with his conclusion. I have gotten it right, this is what I do. You, on the other hand, are a illogical AC with a conservative burr up your anus. I would have advice for you, but it would make no difference.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:48PM (2 children)
George Will recently wrote that the Republican party is no longer conservative, and I think he's right.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:58PM (1 child)
He would have been right in 1981, too. Know why?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Monday September 20 2021, @04:02PM
The Republican party became the Fascist 1% party when Reagan and congress slashed the capital gains tax. Less and less conservative from then on.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @11:53PM (5 children)
If the vaccine protected you from the virus, it wouldn't matter if other people took it or not. You'd be protected.
Since it apparently matters if other people take it, then the vaccine doesn't protect those who take it. If it doesn't protect those who take it, why should anyone take it?
Maybe the vaccine makes the symptoms less extreme, but for many that is not enough benefit to offset the risk of taking the vaccine.
But besides all that, you think that you can't go back to normal until everyone takes the vaccine... but the people who have decided not to take the vaccine have already gone back to acting normally (as much as government officials will permit).
If you want to go back to acting normally, just fucking do it. You don't have to wait on anyone else. YOU have that power. Not the government officials. Not those unvaxxed you scream against. You. No one else. YOU.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:04AM
Only the already lost to reason and the intentionally dishonest would argue otherwise. In your case it's likely both.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:36AM (2 children)
Found the idiot with the 1-bit brain.
Reduction of risk is a sliding scale, not a boolean.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @06:53AM (1 child)
Yet you can't recognize that risk, as well as benefit, various from person to person -- which means that someone who decides differently than you might just be appropriately responding to their own risk/reward ratio, instead of just being a big dum dum for disagreeing with you.
But keep calling them idiots -- that'll be just sure to get them to obey you like the master you dream you really are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @10:17AM
No, I'm specifically calling you the idiot, not some nebulous "them". The fact that you refer to yourself in the third person plural shows that the idiocy runs deep. Surprise level zero.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:04AM
For the virus. Not from the idiots taking an ICU bed from someone who had the bad luck of an accident or who just has a hearth attack. All "just because my freedumbs", the sociopathic idiots.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday September 18 2021, @09:17PM
I think we should be pushing the narrative by considering the virus as an invading, occupying enemy. The anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are enemy collaborators, helping the virus to continue to spread. They are betraying their family, friends, community and country. We should have pretty much ended this already. Instead, largely because of the anti science agenda being pushed, the virus is still running rampant and we are just waiting for the next variant to hammer us.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @07:15PM (1 child)
I am going to continue to not get the vax, simply because it makes people like you mad.
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Monday September 20 2021, @06:41PM
maybe we wont hear from you, soon.
(and not a tear was shed, either)
you think we will miss you?
lol
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 5, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Friday September 17 2021, @07:15PM (34 children)
Either that, or it vindicates anyone who believes that being a healthcare worker doesn't preclude someone from being a fucking idiot.
What the FUCK it is with you and this topic? I actually doubt you were ever any sort of "anti-vaxer" or the like at any point in the past. Rather, you just spout this bullshit to defend the fucking Republican death cult that chose to make is a political wedge issue...collateral human death be damned. Look at Idaho where the health care system has all but collapsed and will only get worse. The 'pubs there picked this opportune moment to put the "needle rape" doctor on one of their largest health care boards.
Fuck all of them and fuck you frankly.
(Score: 2, Troll) by ChrisMaple on Friday September 17 2021, @08:23PM (7 children)
Blaming it on Republicans misses the underlying problem, which has yet to be identified. Possibilities include intransigence, religious fundamentalism or "Christian Science", accepting the tone but not the content of conservative talk show hosts, and many others. Consider also that blacks and hispanics are less likely to be vaccinated than the general population, orientals more likely: that suggests an intelligence or education correlation.
There is a tendency for people who live life bravely not to be vaccinated, and cowards to want vaccination and any other protection. Sometimes braveness is disjoint from wisdom.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Friday September 17 2021, @08:48PM
Sure, there are a lot of reasons why people might choose not to get vaccinated, but right now, politics ARE the biggest factor in my view. The shit storm that's going on in mostly all red states clearly supports that.
(Score: 4, Informative) by DannyB on Friday September 17 2021, @08:59PM (1 child)
See this post [soylentnews.org] elsewhere in this discussion.
People who are sincere in having a genuine religious objection should not take a long list of medications. Depending on the basis of their religious objection.
I consider myself to have a decent working knowledge of the bible, and I do not see any reason for myself to have an objection to all of the vaccinations I have received in my life. Including quite a few before I could enter public school. (Also search here for one of my posts mentioning "public school" that lists quite a long list of mandated vaccines that millions have taken for generations.)
If someone has a principled religious objection, then I hope they are not hypocritical in only rejecting covid vaccine and not other vaccines or other medications.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:06AM
(Score: 4, Insightful) by LabRat on Friday September 17 2021, @10:08PM
Man, is this a twisted line of thought. Who is braver, the person who takes an experimental vaccine to help their community by stopping the spread of a virus that does kill people (ie. healthcare workers who were voluntarily vaccinated in December of last year), or the people who do not act because they are more worried about the side effects the vaccine will have on themselves than the virus spreading in their community? Hint: Bravery generally requires action.
The real tendency is that people want to believe they are brave when they are not, and they tie themselves in knots to justify their cowardice and inaction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:45PM
With ALL POSSIBLE respect, you're confusing "bravely" for "brainlessly".
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:49AM
There's a difference between bravery and stupidity.
Stupidity for example is living in a country where getting sick will bankrupt you and then not getting vaccinated against a highly contagious disease that may require treatment that costs upwards of roughly two Obamacare sex changes.
Then there is total and utter irresponsibility such as sending children, none of whom can presently be vaccinated, back to in-person school during all this....
Bravery would be organizing a general strike for proper lockdowns to put a stop to this madness.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:54PM
For Blacks to be hesitant to have anything at all to do with American health "care" is perfectly logical, if you know the history. As far as "religious fundamentalism", my King James says absolutely nothing about needles except getting a tattoo, the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God doesn't like having His artwork vandalized.
The trouble is people who listen to priests and preachers instead of reading their Bibles. THAT'S where the "fundamentalists" come from.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 5, Informative) by DannyB on Friday September 17 2021, @09:13PM
Yes, such stories appear every day.
Four patients, two dialysis machines: Rationing medical care becomes a reality in hospitals overwhelmed with covid patients [washingtonpost.com]
Doctors in Alaska, Idaho and Montana face agonizing ethical questions
Clue: it is THE UNVACCINATED people who are clogging up hospitals and ICU beds, keeping them from people with heart attacks and other serious conditions.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by tizan on Friday September 17 2021, @09:18PM (1 child)
Yes surge of infections with much less hospitalization and death in proportion as compared to unvaccinated.
Not perfect but with the vaccine we can risk falling ill with a lower probability of dying...so yes we can go back to some normalcy with lower risks.
Look what is happening in Idaho and Alabama etc people with heart attack are dying because of no ICU space. The vaccine make it more normal...
ICU's with space for accidents, strokes, heart attacks !
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @04:22AM
U.S. vaccination prevalence ~55%. Normalized death rate (/100,000) for all age groups is less than 3 most of September. Lowest since pandemic onset.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime [cdc.gov]
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @09:37PM (16 children)
Some have legitimate questions, the answers (or lack thereof) are often politicized, which doesn't help. After ending up with a mild but terrifying case of Guillain–Barré after receiving a raft of immunizations prior to starting graduate school about 10 years ago, (it resolved after about 5 months, others haven't been so lucky), I've been cautious about vaccines. Particularly vaccines using new technology that combine Phase III trials with post-marketing surveillance. After completing my degree and fellowship, I work in biological science. Vague, but times are contentious.
For me in this situation, there are questions regarding data that haven't been answered- instead the questions themselves are attacked, which is a clear warning to pursue no further, unless I'm willing to sacrifice standing and career, which may not be much at this point, but it's what I have. A quick summary/comparison of easily understood, publicly available data will give you a limited picture of the data that is provoking questions.
Go to https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime, [cdc.gov] and examine the curves shown after clicking on the 3 categories under cases, then under deaths.
After selecting any of the subcategories under Deaths particularly "Age", try reconciling what you see with these numbers (particularly those closer to the right side of the x-axis) with data you can chart below. Then reconcile -that- with what you watch on the Box of Truth every night. Unrelated, but interesting thought experiment- under Deaths by Age, if the series for 75+ and 65 - 74 were removed, could we call this a pandemic in the US? Also, all of the emotion-wrenching stories of patients regretting their choices as they die in ICUs that I've seen have been of much younger people, people who are essentially outliers on the series' curves mentioned above.
As I'm sure you're aware, VAERS is a vaccine injury biosurveillance tool, the data in which is mined for signals of concern related to vaccine injury. Because of the nature of the data collection process, bias is an issue with VAERS data, but a quick search of the literature will show that under-reporting of events is bias of greatest concern to many authors, with estimates of under-reporting ranging from factors of 2 to 20 times actual event counts.
Usually event signals aren't obvious and different statistical methods are used to find emergents. It's difficult because of the nature of the data. Sometimes the signals are extremely clear; in the past this has -always- ended use of a vaccine until the cases have been studied. Up until now, the signals usually haven't been visually obvious, they had to be coaxed out of the data with a lot of false starts. You'll see shortly why I brought this up.
Plots of results from these simple queries of the VAERS database will illustrate. None of us that have used this data in the past have ever seen signals such as these. Now, it is understood that with the denominators of vaccinated patients so large, the absolute values of the numbers you'll see below are very small in comparison. That having been said, in the past, significant signals (can't say "similar", as there has been *nothing* similar to these signals, ever) within such a tight window have *always* led to significant unforseen secondary injury years after first challenge. Always. The problems of this sort with yellow fever and the first hep B vaccines come to mind, there are others. Remember that people that work with vaccines know this much better than I.
Try going to https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html [cdc.gov]
Once you click "Agree" at the bottom, to the Request Form tab, then:
Under "Item 1. Organize table layout:" Select "Year Reported" under "Group By".
Under "Item 5. Select other event characteristics:" Select "Death" in the "Event Category" box. ** For subsequent runs of this query, "Hospitalized" and "Life-Threatening" are useful categories
Under "Item 7. Select report completed dates:" Ctrl-Click to Select the years 2000 - 2021
Click "Send"
After the data is retrieved, at the top of the screen, select the "Chart" tab.
Click "Chart Options"
Under "Item 1. Select chart(s) to create:" Select "Events Reported" in the "Measures" box
Under "Bar and Line Chart Options" Select "Vertical" for "Plot Orientation"
Click any "Change Chart" button.
Now, change event characteristics from Death to Hospitalized and repeat, then do the same for Life-Threatening.
Again, it's not the absolute numbers here that are important it's the strength of signal, which is off the charts. Just comparing this publicly available data to the series in the normalized deaths graph above and seeing that triggers built into our system that have been used to prevent emergent, mid to long-term disaster have been suspended, worry me. Granted this is a novel situation with a novel, deadly and fast-spreading virus.
That having been said, never has there been such a prohibition on legitimate questions and discussion of legitimate topics- and I'm not talking about "civilians" on FB spreading "horse wormer" stories. This is occurring in places where meaningful questions and discussion that impact health are meant to occur, between people with the credentials and more importantly the experience to justify it. Often, I've seen that bringing certain legitimate topics to the table with a department head results in marginalization at best, eventually forcing employment elsewhere. I've seen it happen. Other than this silly public forum, I've kept my mouth shut. Honestly, I would be perfectly fine to have all of my fears/questions laid to rest and to be strongly in favor of CoV vaccination.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @09:44PM (1 child)
Apologies- In my previous post, the first CDC link I pasted included a comma at the end that became part of the URL. The correct link should go to: "COVID-19 Weekly Cases and Deaths per 100,000 Population by Age, Race/Ethnicity, and Sex", which is at https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime [cdc.gov]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:19PM
Same poster. One more item that's worth thinking about since this is anon and points don't matter...
Not coming out strongly for or against, but it's worthwhile to note that one of ivermectin's many interesting properties is that it acts as a fairly strong protease inhibitor, you'll have to look this up. Even though it's supposed to be a myth about ivermectin's effectiveness in treating CoV infection, it's interesting that Pfizer is rushing a CoV drug through human trials that is a strong protease inhibitor. Targets may be different, blah blah, but the function of most PI's overlap quite a bit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:54AM (7 children)
Apparently your fears are unfounded.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/underlying-conditions.html#:~:text=Guillain%2DBarre%20syndrome%20(,19%20vaccine%20clinical%20trials [cdc.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:03AM (6 children)
Read again. While GB potential is still source of fear (symptoms were a horror show, not knowing outcome more of same), so are strong emerging injury signals- and the illustration of signal precursors l show how to see above in VAERS reporting (precursor signals are used to justify further analysis of dataset). Combined with death prevalence at current levels with onset and slope of US vaccination coverage, I have many questions about datasets that very competent people in my profession refuse to even discuss, which is first for me, even on other potentially controversial topics. Not trying to argue or convince, I hold no position. Want to discuss seeming disconnect between data and policy, as we've been trained to whenever questions in the past. Has been suggested to me that I should focus on something else. Problem is that I must soon accept vaccine, even though I had prior infection and still show igg/igm.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:10AM (5 children)
Also, GB rates were very very low for my mmr/DTAP/hep b/seasonal flu back in 2011. Symptoms started 5 days post vaccine onset, so there's that. I must be part of Lucky Genotype Club. Was advised to skip second hep b.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:43AM (4 children)
We are all so sorry that you were not sent into the butterfly diving bell that would not allow you to spew your incorrect medical opinions based on your own sorry subjective medical experience. I have to ask: Do you also have Gluten intolerance? Do you possilbly have Lyme disease? Are you now, or have you ever been, a victim of "chronic fatigue syndrome"? Have you served in a US Embassy in a Communist country? Is IBS a concern for you? Have you, or any of your family, ever died of something? Do you fear that you, too, may also succumb to a fatal thing?
(*Disclosure: none of this is meant to cast aspersions on actual sufferers of any of these diseases, or at least of the real ones. As the epitaph on the gravestone of the hypochondriac said, " I told you I was sick!")
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @04:54PM
Not pushing "medical opinions". Point was having hesitations, questions regarding problem data, and tried to show basis for questions. I am fine with answers that confirm there is no problem. May not have made points well, English isn't my first language. Also GB was diagnosed, hospitalized 2 weeks.
Seems as with US political discussions I have seen, there is no discussion, only hostility. Doubt and questions not tolerated. No need to answer unless for others, I'll go now.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday September 19 2021, @05:44AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday September 19 2021, @06:12AM (1 child)
Obviously, my dear fluffy khallow, you do not understand what is oft called the Socratic method. You see, Socrates' claim to wisdom, as laid down by the Oracle of Delphi, was that there was no one wiser than Socrates. He did not think this was right, and so set out to find at least one person wiser than himself. Unfortunately, he found that most people thought they knew something, but when he cross-examined them, it turned out they really had no idea what they were talking about.
So our dear Socrates came to the conclusion that he was the wisest, as the Oracle said, because he knew that he knew nothing, while all the "wise people" he interviewed did not even know that they did not know what they were talking about.
So you see, the method of Socratic questioning is just as applicable today as it was in Socrates day, and still exposes those who do not know that they do not know. It is kind of an obvious rebuttal, don't you think?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday September 20 2021, @12:09AM
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @03:27PM (4 children)
That's very culous bullshit. By your very link, 20% of the DEATHS are in the 64 and younger. 5% in under 50. That's 'only' 130,000 deaths and 32,000 while majority still are yet to be exposed to the virus. So just wait for more to die.
The numbers are 100x worse than any flu year.
And what you are not aware is how to deal with statistics. If 1m people get vaccine and 500 drop dead from heart attacks, that doesn't mean the vaccine did anything. you have to compare it with the numbers that show up dead from that 1m in prior years. And if you actually compare the numbers, then you can say something.
But don't worry. I'm sure I'll trust an arm chair, self proclaimed expert over actual experts that do this for a living. Sarcastic, BTW.
Good luck because people that "doing their research" are the ones driving the crush at the hospitals today. And this doesn't just affect **you**, but everyone else, even if **you** get vaccinated and don't get sick with COVID but need a doctor for almost anything else. Then you can call 50 hospitals when your child get appendicitis since there are no beds.
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/958782 [medscape.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:45PM (2 children)
Causality is known bias in VAERS data. Doesn't change that it is still useful and used to determine emerging injury signals. I work with biostatistics every day. Again, was not advocating against this vaccine, was saying concerns and had questions and trying to show summary data supporting concerns. If you have STATA, want .do files and instructions to retrieve VAERS data sets and how to interpret the signals from analysis, I will send them. Signals I spoke of are reproduceable. Will check back one more time.
Should not have brought up thought experiment- there is always argument between those who include severity and those who don't in pandemic definition: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3127276/ [nih.gov] . Didn't mean to sound callous about any deaths. I can be wrong, that is ok and is what discussion finds out.
All could have been discussed. Fine with outcome of discussion that does or does not support my concerns. In fact would be happy if my concerns were allayed, as I get vaccine Monday. The hostility is the same as in U.S. political discussion, both sides scream at each other but no one discusses. They seem to have endless reasons to hate each other, but both look the same from here. Same as with vaccine conflicts.
Will look here one more time if you want .do files.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:55PM
America?
Concern trolling is advocating against the vaccines! As George W Busch said, if you're not pro-vaccine, you are with the terrorists! This is no time for namby-pamby vacillation about vaccination! Get out there and take the shot! Do your part for humanity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 20 2021, @07:52AM
Sure, I'll call your bluff.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 19 2021, @12:25AM
Came back. No response. No discussion of data from first post, either. Just anger.
Much "justified" mocking, no desire to download dataset and to see STATA scripts in .do files that have been used at work for VAERS injury signal reports. Anyone with basic of math and statistics can understand, would have been glad to walk through. Can evaluate scripts, too, no problem- Approaches used in scripts themselves could have been discussed, data cleaning rules also. None of this is proprietary. Free trial for STATA could have been used. I won't see answer, but wonder if anyone ran signal precursor search in VAERS using instructions in first post.
Instead, "too bad you didn't die before giving false medical opinions", "self taught expert", so on. Wasn't giving medical opinions, looking for answers to questions emerging from unexpected unusual data, fully admitting could be wrong but thought discussion would be good. Found out this is called "concerned trolling".
This forum is only for hating back and forth and nothing else. My mistake, have fun beating each other.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday September 19 2021, @05:39AM
The first sign that there's something deeply wrong with your post: you talk about questions a lot (using the word seven times in your post), and yet, you use the question mark, "?" only once. Who talks about the questions without asking them?
I'll answer that question:
Of course not. The US is about 4% of the world's population. Thus, a study only of US deaths would not confirm the pandemic nature of covid just due to the limited scope. Extending that scope to the world as a whole, and yes, you would be able to confirm the pandemic.
And given that you're cherry picking certain categories of deaths rather than genuine metrics like number of illnesses, you wouldn't actually be looking at the features of covid, such as its global reach and widespread epidemic nature, that make it a pandemic.
Further, if we had a hypothetical disease that only infected the weak and unhealthy globally and was widespread in a similar fashion to covid, it would still be a pandemic.
I sure hope this wasn't meant to be an example of the questions you think need answers that a thoughtful, knowledgeable person couldn't readily provide. Because otherwise, you should just butt out and let the grownups talk.
The "let's put our blinders on and only consider artificial categories and scopes that just so happen to greatly downplay the harm of the pandemic" is pretty shoddy reasoning. What makes it any more valid than pro-vaccine blinders? It's bias and has no place in rational discussion.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @10:02PM (5 children)
Me and this subject? I see a vocal majority insisting that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot. Every one of you with that attitude can fuck right off. Just because your favorite politicians, and your favorite doctors, and your favorite "scientists" agree that something is right, doesn't make it right.
Now, about Fauci. You know, that rat bastard who promoted and defended viral gain of function research. The same rat bastard who lied to us one month, told a different lie the next month, and a new lie the following month, all aimed at covering up research in Wuhan. And, equally based on the current set of lies being promulgated by WHO.
I am, and always have been, anti-CTRL-Left, as well as anti-authoritarianassholes.
Did I get the shot? Yeah, I did. I gave in to pressure from the family, more than anything. So, you're saying I can't be anti-CTRL anymore? Well, you don't get a vote in what I do. I'm gonna do whatever I do, and your wishes bear no weight in my decisions.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:04AM
And then there is Runway1956, who actually is an idiot, and disagrees with people who know stuff, because they are all "educated", and has gone full on, foaming at the mouth, anti-vaxxer. You can go do that thing you are suggesting, Runaway, because you are wrong, and because you are wrong, you are an ignorant moron.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday September 18 2021, @12:35AM (1 child)
The thing is, though? You ARE an idiot, and you've demonstrated it a million and one times on this forum. Occasionally you say something that lines up with observable reality, but with no more regularity or rhyme or reason than the proverbial stopped clock has in being right twice a day.
Your family very likely saved your life, you ungrateful fuck. It should have been you in that hospital bed, not your innocent little granddaughter.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 20 2021, @06:18PM
No no, don't help him. Runaway is a tough, independent, freedom loving bootstrapper and prefers to get his knowledge from the school of hard knocks. Don't spoon feed him the spoilers for his personal growth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:48AM
Because they are. Especially when bringing AR15 or AK47 into the conversation and pretend it being of relevance.
You too, idiot.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mcgrew on Saturday September 18 2021, @04:04PM
I see a vocal majority insisting that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot.
That applies also to the minority who think the world is flat. They're idiots. If you believe something that's demonstrably incorrect, you're an idiot, plain and simple.
and your favorite "scientists"
Those quote marks back up my supposition.
Well, you don't get a vote in what I do.
At least you got SOMETHING right... almost. Nobody has complete freedom unless they're stranded on a deserted tropical island. When the federal judge tells you to do something, you'd damned well better do it.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:19PM
The main exception christian dominionists grant to women, instead of bending over to take seed and raise more children, is work in health care - though it's normally in addition to, rather than in place of. These people have a fragile relationship with medical facts that contradict their world view of "god sends plagues upon sinners."
As a result the medical field has a dire over-representation of such religous whack jobs. I won't speak about other faiths, as I have only escaped from the one (christianity).
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 17 2021, @10:49PM (4 children)
And 40% of Republicans believe Trump actually won the election despite not being able to produce ANY fraud to back that claim. I guess that vindicates the act of removing some of the pillars of democracy, because they "have questions"?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 17 2021, @11:00PM (3 children)
The fact that you can't see the elephant in the tree is proof that elephants are good at hiding in trees.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @02:00AM (2 children)
you may not prove an elephant exists, you may never "prove" it does not exist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 18 2021, @05:43AM (1 child)
You're trying to say absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, yes?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 18 2021, @07:46AM
That's our Runaway! No one has proved that Q is wrong! And no one has proved that massive voter fraud did not take place! And no one has proved that Bigfoot does not exist! Look at all those beef jerky ads! And Faux News! Yep, ignorant moran.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 17 2021, @11:15PM
World-wide, where the disease has had some kind of impact, including France, where this story is focussed, the "wider population" *does* want the vax.
There are some retarded shitholes (probably in countries/regions where more than half of the population believes in jealous and murderous sky-fairies - as I said, pretty damn retarded) where significant proportions of the population don't want it - and maybe you live in one which might skew your opinion - but they (or is it you?) are in a minority.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves