Where *Isn't* Planet 9? Search for Planet Nine still continues
Not long ago astronomers Mike Brown and Konstantin Batygin (the two original people proposing the existence of the planet) used the alignments of the TNO orbits to back-calculate the potential location of the unseen planet in space. It's a kind of treasure map to find the planet.
In a new paper they've put that map to use, looking through survey data in a hunt for Planet 9.
[...] Brown and Batygin wrote software that simulates where Planet 9 would be and how bright it would appears for various values of its size, reflectivity, and orbital shape. They created a database of positions and brightnesses for it, and then combed through the [Zwicky Transient Facility (ZTF)] database to look for it, going through the past three or so years of observations since the facility started its survey campaign.
[...] They ran 100,000 simulations of various parameters for the planet, and looked to see if the ZTF would've seen it if it were indeed smaller and closer to us. They determined that it would've been seen in the survey about 56,000 times out of the 100,000, so just looking at that their non-detection indicates the chance it's smaller and closer is now less than 50%, making it more likely it's farther out, bigger, and fainter.
The larger Vera C. Rubin Observatory is expected to find many previously hidden objects in the solar system, and is scheduled to begin full operations in October 2023. It will accumulate all-sky survey data around 10 times faster than the Zwicky Transient Facility.
Also at ExtremeTech.
Michael Rowan-Robinson from the Imperial College London has found a Planet Nine candidate in old IRAS data, but don't get too excited yet:
A search for Planet 9 in the IRAS data
A single candidate for Planet 9 survives which satisfies the requirements for detected and non-detected HCON passes. A fitted orbit suggest a distance of 225+-15 AU and a mass of 3-5 earth masses. Dynamical simulations are needed to explore whether the candidate is consistent with existing planet ephemerides. If so, a search in an annulus of radius 2.5-4 deg centred on the 1983 position at visible and near infrared wavelengths would be worthwhile.
The Infrared Astronomical Satellite (IRAS) was the first space telescope to perform a survey of the entire night sky at infrared wavelengths. Launched on 25 January 1983, its mission lasted ten months.
Woah! Potential Planet 9 Candidate Found In The Old Data - Could This Be It? (14m13s video)
Previously:
Mars-Sized Planetary Mass Object Could be Influencing Nearby Kuiper Belt Objects
Planet Nine's Existence Disfavoured by New Data
Medieval Records Could Point the Way to Planet Nine
Another Trans-Neptunian Object With a High Orbital Inclination Points to Planet Nine
LSST Could be the Key to Finding New Planets in Our Solar System
CU Boulder Researchers Say Collective Gravity, Not Planet Nine, Explains Orbits of Detached Objects
Planet Nine Search Turns Up 10 More Moons of Jupiter
Planet Nine... or Giant Planet Five?
Mystery Orbits in Outermost Reaches of Solar System May Not be Caused by "Planet Nine"
New Arguments in Favor of a Ninth Planet in Our Solar System
Scientists Propose Plan to Determine if Planet Nine is a Primordial Black Hole
"Shift-Stacking" Method Used to Search for Dim Solar System Objects
Claim for Giant 'Planet Nine' at Solar System's Edge Takes a Hit
Related Stories
Astronomers are inferring the existence of a "Planet Ten" (or actually the true "Planet Nine"?), a Mars-sized body in the Kuiper Belt, several times closer to the Sun than where the hypothetical Neptune-like Planet Nine is expected to be:
An unknown, unseen "planetary mass object" may lurk in the outer reaches of our solar system, according to new research on the orbits of minor planets to be published in the Astronomical Journal. This object would be different from — and much closer than — the so-called Planet Nine, a planet whose existence yet awaits confirmation.
In the paper, Kat Volk and Renu Malhotra of the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory, or LPL, present compelling evidence of a yet-to-be-discovered planetary body with a mass somewhere between that of Mars and Earth. The mysterious mass, the authors show, has given away its presence — for now — only by controlling the orbital planes of a population of space rocks known as Kuiper Belt objects, or KBOs, in the icy outskirts of the solar system.
[...] According to the calculations, an object with the mass of Mars orbiting roughly 60 AU from the sun on an orbit tilted by about eight degrees (to the average plane of the known planets) has sufficient gravitational influence to warp the orbital plane of the distant KBOs within about 10 AU to either side.
Also at New Scientist.
The curiously warped mean plane of the Kuiper belt
We estimate this deviation from the expected mean plane to be statistically significant at the ∼97−99% confidence level. We discuss several possible explanations for this deviation, including the possibility that a relatively close-in (a≲100~au), unseen small planetary-mass object in the outer solar system is responsible for the warping.
Ethan Siegel at Starts With A Bang brings to attention the results of the Outer Solar System Origins Survey (OSSOS). The OSSOS project, which started in 2013 (before the Planet Nine hypothesis was proposed) to survey the minor planets of the outer Solar System, has discovered and determined the orbits of well over eight hundred trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs) in its operation. They have recently published a paper that basically puts the kibosh on the Planet Nine hypothesis. Planet Nine was initially proposed to explain an apparent anomalous clustering of orbits of TNOs consistent with them being perturbed by a large planet, but the OSSOS results have found no such anomalous clustering, and are rather seeing a distribution consistent with uniform randomness.
From Forbes' Javascript-required article:
It was perhaps the most exciting idea to come out of science last year: that an undiscovered, giant world exists in our Solar System, far beyond the orbit of Neptune. This wouldn't be some tiny, frozen world like Pluto or Eris, smaller even than Earth's Moon, but a monstrous super-Earth, perhaps ten times as massive as our own world and almost as large as Uranus or Neptune in radius. As the months passed since it was first proposed by Konstantin Batygin and Mike Brown, they compiled additional evidence for it, and things were looking rosy. But a new study by Shankman et al. has turned the evidence on its head, disfavoring the planet's existence and uncovering a bias in the data itself.
[...] what they found was entirely consistent with no Planet Nine, and that the overall case for Planet Nine's existence was substantially weakened by their study. In particular, the clustering in the orientation of each orbit in space (defined by multiple variables, ω and Ω) that earlier studies, like Batygin & Brown and Trujillo & Sheppard, previously noticed simply doesn't exist in this new, unbiased study.
We find no evidence in the OSSOS sample for the ω clustering that was the impetus for the current additional planet hypothesis.
The data from this new study is quite clear that the previously observed correlation, which was the impetus for hypothesizing Planet Nine, doesn't persist into the new sample.
OSSOS also has a Frequently Asked Questions page about these findings. They don't entirely rule out the existence of a substantial (perhaps Mars-sized) planet in the outer reaches of the Solar System, but their data makes it highly improbable that a super-Earth on the scale of Uranus or Neptune might be out there.
Additional reading:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/new-haul-distant-worlds-casts-doubt-planet-nine
Medieval astronomical records, such as the Bayeux Tapestry, could help narrow down the location (or at least infer the existence) of the hypothetical Planet Nine:
Scientists suspect the existence of Planet Nine because it would explain some of the gravitational forces at play in the Kuiper Belt, a stretch of icy bodies beyond Neptune. But no one has been able to detect the planet yet, though astronomers are scanning the skies for it with tools such as the Subaru Telescope on Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano.
Medieval records could provide another tool, said Pedro Lacerda, a Queen's University astronomer and the other leader of the project.
"We can take the orbits of comets currently known and use a computer to calculate the times when those comets would be visible in the skies during the Middle Ages," Lacerda told Live Science. "The precise times depend on whether our computer simulations include Planet Nine. So, in simple terms, we can use the medieval comet sightings to check which computer simulations work best: the ones that include Planet Nine or the ones that do not."
Also at Queen's University Belfast.
Related: "Planet Nine" Might Explain the Solar System's Tilt
Planet Nine's Existence Disfavoured by New Data
Study of ETNOs Supports Planet Nine's Existence
Passing Star Influenced Comet Orbits in Our Solar System 70,000 Years Ago
2015 BP519, nicknamed "Caju", is another extreme trans-Neptunian object that points to the existence of Planet Nine. Discovered with data from the Dark Energy Survey, Caju has a relatively large diameter, estimated at around 400-700 km, meaning the object could be a gravitationally rounded dwarf planet. It also has a highly inclined orbit of 54°, which a team of scientists says can be explained by the presence of the hypothetical Planet Nine:
After discovering it, the team tried to investigate 2015 BP519's origins using computer simulations of the Solar System. However, these tests were not able to adequately explain how the object had ended with such an orbit.
But when the team added a ninth planet with properties exactly matching those predicted by the Caltech scientists in 2016, the orbit of 2015 BP519 suddenly made sense. "The second you put Planet Nine in the simulations, not only can you form objects like this object, but you absolutely do," Juliette Becker, a Michigan graduate student and lead author of the study told Quanta.
Some researchers, however, caution that Planet Nine may not be the only explanation for 2015 BP519's strange orbit. Michele Bannister, a planetary astronomer from Queen's University Belfast, in Ireland, who was not involved in the study, told Newsweek that while the latest findings were "a great discovery," other scenarios could account for its tilt. "This object is unusual because it's on a high inclination," she said. "This can be used to maybe tell us some things about its formation process. There are a number of models that suggest you can probably put objects like this into the shape of orbit and the tilt of orbit that we see today."
Also at Quanta Magazine.
Discovery and Dynamical Analysis of an Extreme Trans-Neptunian Object with a High Orbital Inclination (arXiv:1805.05355)
Related: Medieval Records Could Point the Way to Planet Nine
The Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (LSST) may be able to find new planets in our solar system, including the hypothesized planets Nine and Ten:
Overall, these estimates indicated that Planet 9/X was a super-Earth with anywhere between 5 to 20 Earth masses, and orbited the Sun at a distance of between 150 – 600 AU. Concurrently, these studies have also attempted to narrow down where this Super-Earth's orbit will take it throughout the outer Solar System, as evidenced by the perturbations it has on KBOs.
Unfortunately, the predicted locations and brightness of the object are not yet sufficiently constrained for astronomers to simply look in the right place at the right time and pick it out. In this respect, a large area sky survey must be carried out using moderately large telescopes with a very wide field of view. As Dr. Trilling told Universe Today via email:
"The predicted Planet X candidates are not particularly faint, but the possible locations on the sky are not very well constrained at all. Therefore, what you really need to find Planet X is a medium-depth telescope that covers a huge amount of sky. This is exactly LSST. LSST's sensitivity will be sufficient to find Planet X in almost all its (their) predicted configurations, and LSST will cover around half of the known sky to this depth. Furthermore, the cadence is well-matched to finding moving objects, and the data processing systems are very advanced. If you were going to design a tool to find Planet X, LSST is what you would design."
Collective gravity, not Planet Nine, may explain the orbits of 'detached objects'
Bumper car-like interactions at the edges of our solar system—and not a mysterious ninth planet—may explain the the dynamics of strange bodies called "detached objects," according to a new study. CU Boulder Assistant Professor Ann-Marie Madigan and a team of researchers have offered up a new theory for the existence of planetary oddities like Sedna—an icy minor planet that circles the sun at a distance of nearly 8 billion miles. Scientists have struggled to explain why Sedna and a handful of other bodies at that distance look separated from the rest of the solar system. [...] The researchers presented their findings today at a press briefing at the 232nd meeting of the American Astronomical Society, which runs from June 3-7 in Denver, Colorado.
[...] [Jacob] Fleisig had calculated that the orbits of icy objects beyond Neptune circle the sun like the hands of a clock. Some of those orbits, such as those belonging to asteroids, move like the minute hand, or relatively fast and in tandem. Others, the orbits of bigger objects like Sedna, move more slowly. They're the hour hand. Eventually, those hands meet. "You see a pileup of the orbits of smaller objects to one side of the sun," said Fleisig, who is the lead author of the new research. "These orbits crash into the bigger body, and what happens is those interactions will change its orbit from an oval shape to a more circular shape." In other words, Sedna's orbit goes from normal to detached, entirely because of those small-scale interactions.
Also at Popular Mechanics, where Planet Nine proposer Konstantin Batygin disputes the findings:
Batygin, of Caltech, tells Popular Mechanics that any sufficiently strong gravitational encounter could detach an object from Neptune's embrace, but for the distant small bodies of the Kuiper belt to have done so through "self-gravity"—as the CU model proposes—there would need to be about five to ten times the mass of Earth in the outer parts of the Kuiper belt. There isn't.
"Unfortunately, the self-gravity story suffers from the following complications," Batygin says. "Both observational and theoretical estimates place the total mass of the Kuiper belt at a value significantly smaller than that of the Earth [only 1 to 10 percent Earth's mass]. As a consequence, Kuiper belt objects generally behave like test-particles enslaved by Neptune's gravitational pull, rather than a self-interacting group of planetoids."
Related: Planet Nine's Existence Disfavoured by New Data
Medieval Records Could Point the Way to Planet Nine
Another Trans-Neptunian Object With a High Orbital Inclination Points to Planet Nine
Outer Solar System Origins Survey Discovers Over 800 Trans-Neptunian Objects
LSST Could be the Key to Finding New Planets in Our Solar System
Astronomers have found a new crop of moons around Jupiter, and one of them is a weirdo
Ten more moons have been confirmed to orbit around Jupiter, bringing the planet's total known satellite count to 79. That's the highest number of moons of any planet in the Solar System. And these newly discovered space rocks are giving astronomers insight as to why the Jupiter system looks like it does today.
Astronomers at Carnegie Institution for Science first found these moons in March 2017, along with two others that were already confirmed in June of last year. The team initially found all 12 moons using the Blanco 4-meter telescope in Chile, though finding these objects wasn't their main goal. Instead, they were searching for incredibly distant small objects — or even planets — that might be lurking in our Solar System beyond Pluto. But as they searched for these fringe space rocks, they decided to take a peek at what might be lurking around Jupiter at the same time. Now, the moons they found have been observed multiple times, and their exact orbits have been submitted for approval from the International Astronomical Union, which officially recognizes celestial bodies.
These moons are all pretty tiny, ranging between less than a mile and nearly two miles wide. And they break down into three different types. Two orbit closer to Jupiter, moving in the same direction that the planet spins. Farther out from those, about 15.5 million miles from the planet, there are nine that rotate in the opposite direction, moving against Jupiter's rotation. But in this same distant region, one strange moon that astronomers are calling Valetudo is moving with Jupiter's spin, like the two inner moons.
Previously: Two Tiny New Moons Found Around Jupiter
Related: Retrograde Jupiter Co-Orbital Asteroid May Have an Interstellar Origin
Another Trans-Neptunian Object With a High Orbital Inclination Points to Planet Nine
CU Boulder Researchers Say Collective Gravity, Not Planet Nine, Explains Orbits of Detached Objects
Planet Nine: 'Insensitive' Term Riles Scientists
The International Astronomical Union (IAU) famously reclassified Pluto as a "dwarf planet" in 2006. That decision remains highly controversial today, as made clear by the new note, which appeared in the July 29 issue of the Planetary Exploration Newsletter.
The note:
ON THE INSENSITIVE USE OF THE TERM "PLANET 9" FOR OBJECTS BEYOND PLUTO
We the undersigned wish to remind our colleagues that the IAU planet definition adopted in 2006 has been controversial and is far from universally accepted. Given this, and given the incredible accomplishment of the discovery of Pluto, the harbinger of the solar system's third zone — the Kuiper Belt — by planetary astronomer Clyde W. Tombaugh in 1930, we the undersigned believe the use of the term 'Planet 9' for objects beyond Pluto is insensitive to Professor Tombaugh's legacy.
We further believe the use of this term should be discontinued in favor of culturally and taxonomically neutral terms for such planets, such as Planet X, Planet Next, or Giant Planet Five.
35 researchers signed the note, including Alan Stern, principal investigator of the New Horizons mission.
Of more interest may be this proposal concerning future exploration of Uranus and Neptune:
Related: Uranus and Neptune Are Potential Targets for 2030s Missions
Another Trans-Neptunian Object With a High Orbital Inclination Points to Planet Nine
CU Boulder Researchers Say Collective Gravity, Not Planet Nine, Explains Orbits of Detached Objects
Planet Nine Search Turns Up 10 More Moons of Jupiter
The strange orbits of some objects in the farthest reaches of our solar system, hypothesised by some astronomers to be shaped by an unknown ninth planet, can instead be explained by the combined gravitational force of small objects orbiting the Sun beyond Neptune, say researchers.
The alternative explanation to the so-called 'Planet Nine' hypothesis, put forward by researchers at the University of Cambridge and the American University of Beirut, proposes a disc made up of small icy bodies with a combined mass as much as ten times that of Earth. When combined with a simplified model of the solar system, the gravitational forces of the hypothesised disc can account for the unusual orbital architecture exhibited by some objects at the outer reaches of the solar system.
[...] "The Planet Nine hypothesis is a fascinating one, but if the hypothesised ninth planet exists, it has so far avoided detection," said co-author Antranik Sefilian, a PhD student in Cambridge's Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics. "We wanted to see whether there could be another, less dramatic and perhaps more natural, cause for the unusual orbits we see in some TNOs. We thought, rather than allowing for a ninth planet, and then worry about its formation and unusual orbit, why not simply account for the gravity of small objects constituting a disc beyond the orbit of Neptune and see what it does for us?"
[...] Earlier attempts to estimate the total mass of objects beyond Neptune have only added up to around one-tenth the mass of Earth. However, in order for the TNOs to have the observed orbits and for there to be no Planet Nine, the model put forward by Sefilian and Touma requires the combined mass of the Kuiper Belt to be between a few to ten times the mass of Earth. [...] "It's also possible that both things could be true -- there could be a massive disc and a ninth planet. With the discovery of each new TNO, we gather more evidence that might help explain their behaviour."
Shepherding in a Self-Gravitating Disk of Trans-Neptunian Objects
Related: CU Boulder Researchers Say Collective Gravity, Not Planet Nine, Explains Orbits of Detached Objects
Corresponding with the three-year anniversary of their announcement hypothesizing the existence of a ninth planet in the solar system, Caltech's Mike Brown and Konstantin Batygin are publishing a pair of papers analyzing the evidence for Planet Nine's existence.
The papers offer new details about the suspected nature and location of the planet, which has been the subject of an intense international search ever since Batygin and Brown's 2016 announcement.
The first, titled "Orbital Clustering in the Distant Solar System," was published in The Astronomical Journal on January 22. The Planet Nine hypothesis is founded on evidence suggesting that the clustering of objects in the Kuiper Belt, a field of icy bodies that lies beyond Neptune, is influenced by the gravitational tugs of an unseen planet. It has been an open question as to whether that clustering is indeed occurring, or whether it is an artifact resulting from bias in how and where Kuiper Belt objects are observed.
To assess whether observational bias is behind the apparent clustering, Brown and Batygin developed a method to quantify the amount of bias in each individual observation, then calculated the probability that the clustering is spurious. That probability, they found, is around one in 500.
[...] The second paper is titled "The Planet Nine Hypothesis," and is an invited review that will be published in the next issue of Physics Reports. The paper provides thousands of new computer models of the dynamical evolution of the distant solar system and offers updated insight into the nature of Planet Nine, including an estimate that it is smaller and closer to the sun than previously suspected. Based on the new models, Batygin and Brown -- together with Fred Adams and Juliette Becker (BS '14) of the University of Michigan -- concluded that Planet Nine has a mass of about five times that of the earth and has an orbital semimajor axis in the neighborhood of 400 astronomical units (AU), making it smaller and closer to the sun than previously suspected -- and potentially brighter. Each astronomical unit is equivalent to the distance between the center of Earth and the center of the sun, or about 149.6 million kilometers.
-- submitted from IRC
The planet nine hypothesis (DOI: 10.1016/j.physrep.2019.01.009) (DX)
Orbital Clustering in the Distant Solar System (DOI: 10.3847/1538-3881/aaf051) (DX)
Previously: CU Boulder Researchers Say Collective Gravity, Not Planet Nine, Explains Orbits of Detached Objects
Scientists propose plan to determine if Planet Nine is a primordial black hole:
Dr. Avi Loeb, Frank B. Baird Jr. Professor of Science at Harvard, and Amir Siraj, a Harvard undergraduate student, have developed the new method to search for black holes in the outer solar system based on flares that result from the disruption of intercepted comets. The study suggests that the LSST[*] has the capability to find black holes by observing for accretion flares resulting from the impact of small Oort cloud objects.
"In the vicinity of a black hole, small bodies that approach it will melt as a result of heating from the background accretion of gas from the interstellar medium onto the black hole," said Siraj. "Once they melt, the small bodies are subject to tidal disruption by the black hole, followed by accretion from the tidally disrupted body onto the black hole." Loeb added, "Because black holes are intrinsically dark, the radiation that matter emits on its way to the mouth of the black hole is our only way to illuminate this dark environment."
[...] The upcoming LSST is expected to have the sensitivity required to detect accretion flares, while current technology isn't able to do so without guidance. "LSST has a wide field of view, covering the entire sky again and again, and searching for transient flares," said Loeb. "Other telescopes are good at pointing at a known target, but we do not know exactly where to look for Planet Nine. We only know the broad region in which it may reside." Siraj added, "LSST's ability to survey the sky twice per week is extremely valuable. In addition, its unprecedented depth will allow for the detection of flares resulting from relatively small impactors, which are more frequent than large ones."
Lighting a path to Planet Nine
The search for Planet Nine — a hypothesized ninth planet in our solar system — may come down to pinpointing the faintest orbital trails in an incredibly dark corner of space.
That's exactly what Yale astronomers Malena Rice and Gregory Laughlin are attempting with a technique that scoops up scattered light from thousands of space telescope images and identifies orbital pathways for previously undetected objects.
[...] To detect objects that are otherwise undetectable, Rice and Laughlin employ a method called "shifting and stacking." They "shift" images from a space telescope — like moving a camera while snapping photos — along pre-defined sets of potential orbital paths. Then they "stack" hundreds of these images together in a way that combines their faint light.
[...] Rice said shifting and stacking has been used in the past to discover new solar system moons. This is the first time it has been used on a large scale to search a wide area of space. The images she and Laughlin used came from the Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite, a space telescope normally used to search for planets outside our solar system.
The researchers tested their method by successfully searching for light signals of three known, trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs). Next, they conducted a blind search of two sectors in the outer solar system that might reveal Planet Nine or any previously undetected Kuiper belt objects — and detected 17 potential objects.
Also at EarthSky.
Exploring Trans-Neptunian Space with TESS: A Targeted Shift-Stacking Search for Planet Nine and Distant TNOs in the Galactic Plane (arXiv:2010.13791)
Science Mag says:
For planetary scientists, it was the boldest claim in a generation: an unseen extra planet, as much as 10 times the mass of Earth, lurking on the Solar System's frontier, beyond Neptune. But the claim looks increasingly shaky, after a team of astronomers reported last week that the orbits of a handful of distant lumps of rock are not bunched together by the gravity of "Planet Nine," as its proponents believe, but only seem clustered because that's where telescopes happened to be looking.
Planet Nine supporters aren't backing down yet but one skeptic not involved with the new work says she is "very happy" to see it. The study has carried out "a more uniform analysis" than done previously of the far-off rocky bodies known as known as Trans-Neptunian Objects (TNOs), says astronomer Samantha Lawler of the University of Regina, who has tried and failed to simulate the clustered orbits in computer models with an extra planet.
Mike Brown and Konstantin Batygin of the California Institute of Technology made headlines worldwide in 2016 with their prediction for a distant Planet Nine. They based their conclusion on a study of six TNOs, each smaller than Pluto, in extremely elongated and tilted orbits around the Sun. The orbits of these "extreme" TNOs were bunched together, Brown and Batygin said, because Planet Nine's gravity had nudged them there over billions of years. Several more extreme TNOs discovered since then seemed to cluster as well. "I would argue that the relevant [Planet 9] dataset is in pretty good shape," Batygin says.
But then, the evil selection bias crept in.
(Score: 2) by Frosty Piss on Saturday November 13 2021, @01:44AM (3 children)
Ed Wood already found it years ago.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @02:36AM
Fiction aside, and years before that by Clyde Tombaugh, but really earlier by Percival Lowell, or much like TFA speculated on by others in the late 19th century.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Saturday November 13 2021, @12:33PM (1 child)
Never mind that: Planet 9 used to be called "Planet X", and Planet X was simultaneously discovered by Duck Dodgers and Marvin the Martian decades ago!
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday November 13 2021, @05:24PM
What about Planet 9 3/4? And Y didn't Dodgers keep going, discover them all?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @03:59AM (6 children)
Those who demoted Pluto all bought reservations in hell - there is a special oven purpose-built for you lot there.
You heathens will bake slowly, very slowly.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @04:33AM (5 children)
Why exactly is this such a big deal worthy of eternal damnation?
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @04:41AM
Dharma, the Dharma of asstro-assholes.
Enjoy your slow slow baking.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Saturday November 13 2021, @11:08AM (3 children)
Well, when Pluto was a planet, we had a ninth planet. Now we've lost it and we've been wasting money looking for a new ninth planet ever since. We really didn't need the expenditure if you ask me, thank you so very bloody much...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @05:46PM
Now that Chaos has been defeated, Pluto can go off to the grey havens.
The ninth planet we're looking for is the BBW influencing the orbits of Neptune and Uranus.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday November 15 2021, @03:14PM (1 child)
It was noted that Pluto was too small for it to be the fabled "Planet Nine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine [wikipedia.org] The search for a planet beyond Neptune has been going on for a very long time. Well before they discovered Pluto, the dwarf planet formerly known as a planet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto [wikipedia.org] It's just annoying, because entire generations of people were taught that Pluto was a planet. Now, due to some arbitrary size issue, it's not a Planet, it's a Dwarf Planet.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 15 2021, @08:48PM
Freeman wrote:
Actually, due to a political correctness issue, it's a Planet of Restricted Growth.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @04:30AM
In the 1950s, it's Catholics. In 20xx, it's the feminists.
Gender equality can only be established through working class struggle. Sexual liberation for all genders can only be found in the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Hegemonic feminism is as much sexist, religious garbage as its predecessors.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @06:00AM
Well, at least it is not astrology, or chrystallogy, or Trumpology. The possibilities of pseudo-science are endless, as are the conspiracy theories based on them, or which they base. Let me suggest the "Electric Universe" or Golden Gate. I am so glad that SoylentNews is a refuge from all the Right-wing Nut-job based fake science out there! Praise be to the FSM! (Injured eds, this is where you blame me, and ask for better science submissions, since you are not competent to identify them.).
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @06:50AM (17 children)
First the Pluto nonsense. Now this? This planet 9 bullshit has to go #neverplanet9. Whats next? A planet 10? Planet 11? Planet elventy stupidy billion? WTF man is it with all of these "new" thinkers anyhow?! There was nothing wrong with Pluto. I mean really. Shouldn't this be planet 10?
Pluto will always be my planet 9. #alwaysmyplanet9
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @11:36AM (16 children)
Ceres was 'planet 5' between Mars and Jupiter before the rest of the asteroid belt was discovered. Pluto just held that elevated title longer before the belt it is part of was confirmed. If Pluto is a planet then Ceres is as well, which would make Pluto planet 10.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @11:55AM (15 children)
I, for one, welcome our new planetary sister. I have no problem with Ceres being defined as a planet, especially since I hold no truck with the "must clear its own orbit" requirement that was somehow foisted onto pluto.
How does Neptune get a pass on the "cleared orbit" requirement if Pluto does not, considering that Neptune and Pluto's orbits intersect? If they are both in each other's neighborhood, why is Neptune not being held to this requirement?
(Score: 4, Funny) by theluggage on Saturday November 13 2021, @12:38PM (3 children)
It seems a lot of people don't understand what "A planet must have cleared its orbit" really means. It's actually a technical astronomical term that roughly translates as:
"A planet should have been discovered by a non-American before the 20th Century and should not be called Pluto because Pluto jisn't a planet, I mean because it's just not, and Clyde Tombaugh smells, and there are 8 planets and the number of the planets shall be 8, to 9 thou shalt not count (10 is right out) and anybody who disagrees with this is making an irrational appeal to tradition and 'planet' means whatever I intend it to mean."
It's an easy mistake to make, but then you can't argue with the cold hard scientific logic that a "dwarf planet" just isn't a planet.
Meanwhile, would you like to join my campaign to re-define the number "2" as a "dwarf prime"? Because having an even number be prime is just clearly wrong and "only divisible by 1 and itself" obviously doesn't apply if there aren't any other integers to try. Also, I keep forgetting it's supposed to be prime. (Note: joke. Here, try breathing into this bag...)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @06:39PM (2 children)
Adding to the pythonesque drama:
According to definition (3):
If we had a Terran sized object orbiting on an inclination that passes through our orbit, the we would be a "dwarf planet".
Or even worse: if a passing trans-stellar planet of a Jupiter sized mass became trapped in Sol's gravity well, and began to orbit crossing Jupiter's orbit, then ... Jupiter magically becomes "a dwarf planet".
But if that isn't sufficiently preposterous:
"The definition distinguishes planets from smaller bodies and is not applicable outside the Solar System".
So, if Pluto/Uranus were orbiting another star, then it would be a fully-fledged planet, no worries.
Ye gads, this is an awful mess.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Sunday November 14 2021, @12:14AM (1 child)
If another Jupiter sized planet just showed up it would distrupt the orbits in the solar system so much we would need new categories for all the objects slinging around anyway. The new categories will probably describe the various ways they kill life on earth.
You may not like the definition, but if your argument needs to re-arange the whole solar system it is pretty weak.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 14 2021, @03:02AM
But, the jupiter sized object only masses about as much as the moon because it's hollow, and the BGM* live inside of it.
*BGM is Big Green Men. Enough of the LGM! Small minds make up diminutive monsters and bad guys.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 3, Informative) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 13 2021, @02:08PM (10 children)
The reason Neptune gets a pass is simple: You are not using the right definition.
When the IAU talks about 'clearing the neighbourhoud' it means there are no objects of similar size that are not under its direct gravitational influence (such as moons).
Thus Neptune gets a pass because it is huge compared to Pluto. From Neptunes perspective Pluto is just some dust floating around.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @02:48PM (6 children)
This whole shitshow was attention-seeking assholes looking for controversy where there was none.
If earth was in the same orbit as jupiter but on the opposite side of the sun it would not be considered a planet. Not even if the moon was accompanying it. How self-evidently stupid is that?
As for dwarf planet, how "dwarfy" was earth before it lost most of its mass after the sun went thermonuclear? Get rid of the volatites on the Jovian olanets and they don't look that big at their cores (there's a question as to whether Jupiter even has a rocky core).
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 13 2021, @07:33PM (5 children)
Read again. How may SIMILAR SIZED objects are there in Juptiters orbit?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @10:42PM (4 children)
Earth hasn't cleared its orbit. The moon is 27% of the diameter of the earth. That's not insignificant. Mercury is only 40% of the diameter of earth - is 13% difference all that significant? If we were to replace mercury with the moon, would it not be a planet?
(Score: 5, Informative) by pe1rxq on Sunday November 14 2021, @12:09AM (3 children)
Neither of those objects would be considered a planet. So what? We already have 'dwarf planets', we can add a new category for your imaginary pair: 'binary planets'. See how easy that was.
And the barycenter of the earth-moon system is still inside the earth. The moon is indeed pretty big compared to earth, but still orbiting our planet...
And yes the moon in another place and another orbit might actually qualify as a planet.
But it is not oribiting somewhere else. Where it currently is it is not a planet. Location is part of the definition.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Sunday November 14 2021, @08:02PM (2 children)
I'm reminded of this quote:
"The IAU definition is analogous to putting an apple in the middle of the table, then moving it to the edge of the table and declaring it is no longer an apple," - Mark V. Sykes
If you put mars, an uncontroversial and unambiguous planet, into pluto's orbit... replacing pluto, then its not a planet anymore, and that's just not really satisfying.
If you take a star and put 2 Neptune sized objects 180 degree apart in the same orbit... they aren't planets, that seems pretty absurd.
The definition is just clunky.
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Monday November 15 2021, @08:04PM (1 child)
Its more like eating the apple and insisting that the resulting turd should still be called an apple.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Tuesday November 16 2021, @06:24PM
No, its really not. That's the whole point. We put Mar's in pluto's orbit then it no longer qualifies as a planet. But it's exactly the same "apple". I get it, I just think its a really unsatisfying definition, same as small bits of space rock.
Its a meteoroid while its in space. It's a meteor only while its streaking through the atmosphere giving off light. And whatever makes it to the ground is a meteorite. I find that likewise, unsatisfying. Linguistically these states seem like they should be adjective clauses for a single object rather than individual nouns.
And, if you take the meteorites, put them in a rocket and send them into space again... are they still meteorites for having hit the ground, or are they just meteoroids again or simultaneously both? :p
Further, definitions need to be "useful". I don't really see how the current definition is really 'useful'. What if some wandering earth scale object gets trapped by the sun in an orbit that crosses earth's. Is earth no longer a planet now? Suppose its not a stable orbit, and the result is that eventually both it and earth are thrown into interstellar space. If earth gets tossed out of the solar system, and isn't orbiting a star, what is it? If it by some fluke it gets captured by another star in some weird orbit what is it then? What if after a few billion years it will clear out its new orbit, but hasn't yet... what is for that period of them?
Exactly, what is a round rocky earth scale object that isn't (currently) in a stable orbit around a star with its orbit sufficiently clear for the IAU? If its not a planet... what is it then?
I might have called it a planet in an unstable orbit after the sun picked up its new toy and, I might have called it a wandering planet once it was out in interstellar space, a recently captured planet when it got to its new home... but apparently the moment the sun found a new plaything, Earth stopped being a planet, so what is it?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 13 2021, @03:26PM
The reason it gets a pass is even simpler than you think: because the IAU has had to keep gerrymandering the definition for it to pass any muster as it was always a unsupportable mess. You should go back and look at how that planet definition was foisted upon the IAU [space.com]. You had to be at the international meeting in person, you had to have been there on the last day of the conference, and if you left the conference early comfortable with the definition that was coming up for a vote, you then had to see how Brown and his ilk changed the definition at the last minute and had it up for a vote when only a fraction of the meeting attendees were left (again, did I mention that only those in person were allowed to vote?). Then the definition was so ridiculous, they had to keep refining what "clearing the neighborhood" meant until you get to something that looks "easy" to people like you.
Who was key to hijacking the definition at the last minute that had been worked on for years? The same guy who said after only 5% of the IAU astronomers voted (most of which in the same field as the quoter), "There are now, finally, and officially, eight planets"? One Mike Brown, the same person who seems to be authoring paper after paper telling you all the reasons that the planet should be found here, so if another planet is discovered, no matter where it turns up, I can assure you that there will be a Brown et al. paper saying "see, I told you it would be here!" It seems that he has been singularly focused on being knighted as a discoverer of a true planet for his career.
There are congressional districts in North Carolina that have been put together with more integrity and transparency as this planet definition.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday November 14 2021, @04:06PM (1 child)
Which is of course an even stronger argument for Pluto not being a planet.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 14 2021, @08:12PM
I don't understand this. Being in resonance is a strong argument against one of them? I thought it just meant that the mean orbital periods were in integer ratios. That said, for Neptune-Pluto to be in an orbital resonance, for whom is this an argument against? Perhaps Neptune isn't the planet then, since it is in resonance with Pluto and not the other way around? What about Jupiter/Saturn, with their 2:5 resonance? Which one of those is not the planet? That would make Strike Two against Jupiter, since it hasn't even "cleared its neighborhood" yet anyway.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday November 13 2021, @05:44PM (3 children)
There's a long list of hypothetical planets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hypothetical_Solar_System_objects [wikipedia.org]
I've been wondering why the findplanetnine.com website vanished. They thought the argument of observational bias so compelling that they agree there almost certainly isn't a Planet 9 after all? Or was it all the spam it started to accumulate in the comments?
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Saturday November 13 2021, @05:49PM (1 child)
TFA links to it: http://findplanetnine.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday November 13 2021, @06:00PM
Wow, thanks. Reading it now.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday November 15 2021, @03:18PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine [wikipedia.org]
The Voyagers did some cool stuff.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"