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posted by janrinok on Thursday November 18 2021, @01:57AM   Printer-friendly
from the can't-we-all-just-get-along? dept.

From a recent Science Reports paper:

Online debates are often characterised by extreme polarisation and heated discussions among users. The presence of hate speech online is becoming increasingly problematic, making necessary the development of appropriate countermeasures. In this work, we perform hate speech detection on a corpus of more than one million comments on YouTube videos through a machine learning model, trained and fine-tuned on a large set of hand-annotated data.

Our analysis shows that there is no evidence of the presence of "pure haters", meant as active users posting exclusively hateful comments. Moreover, coherently with the echo chamber hypothesis, we find that users skewed towards one of the two categories of video channels (questionable, reliable) are more prone to use inappropriate, violent, or hateful language within their opponents' community.

Interestingly, users loyal to reliable sources use on average a more toxic language than their counterpart. Finally, we find that the overall toxicity of the discussion increases with its length, measured both in terms of the number of comments and time. Our results show that, coherently with Godwin's law, online debates tend to degenerate towards increasingly toxic exchanges of views.

Journal Reference:
M. Cinelli, A. Pelicon, I. Mozetič, et al. Dynamics of online hate and misinformation. [open] Sci Rep 11, 22083 (2021).
DOI: 10.1038/s41598-021-01487-w


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  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:15AM (6 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:15AM (#1197283)

    As a devotee of science and mainstream publications, let me just say this: FUCK TRUMP, FUCK TRUMPTARDS, FUCK CHUDS, FUCK FLAT EARTHERS, FUCK ANTI-VAXXERS, AND FUCK SCIENCE DENIERS! You all deserve to die! I have facts, truth and logic on my side, something all you morons will never understand!

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:17AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:17AM (#1197285)

      Mr. Feelziez before Factzez. How's that 1455 project going?

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Mykl on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:09AM (1 child)

      by Mykl (1112) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:09AM (#1197303)

      To whomever modded the parent Spam: please give yourself a Whoosh stamp.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:28AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:28AM (#1197326)

        Some trumptard cocksucker.

        With small hands.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:15AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:15AM (#1197306)

      FUCK SCIENCE DENIERS

      That's right! It is scientifically proven that there are over 9000 genders.

      • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:59AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:59AM (#1197342)

        Scientifically proven that Dunning-Krueger Effect effects many who are really not that bright, and affects those who are ignorant of science, and those who tend to be, um, Conservative. Sorry, Guv'ner, just the way it is.

        • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:04AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:04AM (#1197351)

          I got your Guv'ner, swinging, between my thighs.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:16AM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:16AM (#1197284)

    Just ban progressives from using the interwebz. When you sign up for an ISP account, you answer some simple questions:

    1. Are you a communist?
    2. Are you a progressive?
    3. Are you affiliated with Antifa?
    4. Do you know anyone affiliated with Antifa?
    5. Do you support the 2nd Amendment as much as you support the 1st Amendment?
    6. Do you approve of segregation in our colleges?
    7. Do you approve of Critical Race Theory?
    8. Did you vote for Sleepy Creepy?
    9. Do you love baseball, hot dogs, and apple pie?
    10. What is the name of the professional football team representing Washington?
    11. What does the 'OK' sign really mean to you?

    • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:27AM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:27AM (#1197288)

      Are you Runaway1956, pretending to not be Runaway1956? Gawd, I hate it when he does that! I hate him so much. I hate him in a box, I hate him with a fox. I hate him with a gun, I hate him 'cause he's dumb. I hate him quite impeccably, I hate him for what he's done to she. I hate him for his traitorous behavior, I hate him for wanting to give Trump a wavier. I hate him for what he is, and hate him all up in his. I really hate that Runaway man, I really do, Sam I Am!

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:51AM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:51AM (#1197290)

        Are you a douche? Or are you just pretending to be a douche?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:42AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:42AM (#1197298)

          > Are you a douche?

          No, he's a Suess. Here, this nice lady will read it to you--
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdotPwVJYzs [youtube.com]

          • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:07AM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:07AM (#1197344)

            I hate Runaway. Hate him in Arkansas, hate him in Bernaise sauce. Hate him with a Hillbilly yell, hate him when he burns in hell. Hate Runaway when the Republicans win Arkansas, hate him when Gosar beheads Asa Hutchinson. Hate the Runaway when he gets vaxxed, hate Runaway when he is not taxed. Hate the Runaway in the groin, hate him when he is stupid enough to promote bitcoin! Hate Runaway when he claims self-defense, and I have shoot the motherfucker down like a dog in the street because his is the one who caused the choice in the first place. Hate that Runaway.

               

            • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:08AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:08AM (#1197352)

              I also hate Runaway1956. But I am not as skilled at rhymes! I hate him a bunch, I hate him with a bundle of sticks wrapped around the handle of an axe. I hate him with an eagle, and all other carrion feeding large birds. I hate him under sub rosa, and I hate him with a carcinoma. This Runaway is not my friend, he is the very opposite end. I hate him when he IRCs, I hate when he has to pee. He is the very model of a modern redneck asshole, the antithesis of a major-general. Hate him when he betrays his country, hate him when he suck on Carlsonty.

              • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:35AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:35AM (#1197359)

                I hate Runaway1956, too, but I do not want to be Spam modded just for saying so! What ever happened to the SoylentNews of Freeze Peaches? We used to be able to hate freely, directing invective at the Runaway with joyful abandon, and often to the point! But now, now the mod-gangs of censorship are upon us. They will not let us freely hate the Runaway. Who runs this SockPuppet Army of the Alt-right? Bruce Anderson? Richard Spencer? Big Bird? I hate Runaway1956, for what he makes me realize about much of may family. And Thanksgiving is nigh.

                • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:22PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:22PM (#1197479)

                  Wow mod abuse! I'm guessing the admins will fix this and ban the guilty account sometime between hell freezing over and the heat death of the universe.

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:04AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:04AM (#1197293)

        Meds.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:19PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:19PM (#1197745)

      I'll bite. What affiliation am I?

      1. no
      2. no
      3. no
      4. no
      5. yes
      6. yes
      7. no
      8. no
      9. no
      10. don't watch nigger-ball so wouldn't know
      11. it means the media is easy to be trolled by 4chan

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by fustakrakich on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:24AM (1 child)

    by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:24AM (#1197286) Journal

    Sieg Freud!

    --
    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:26PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:26PM (#1197507)

      Troll... twice!

      Pearl clutching knitting clubbers unite!

      It's a gift, to you-know-who

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:32AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:32AM (#1197289)

    What the fuck is this bullshit post yammering about? Buncha cocksuckers.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:16AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:16AM (#1197355)

      Faux News mentions "hate" orders of magnitude more often than other alleged "news" outlets, and usually in reference to hatred toward the really stupid, backward, and conservative viewers of Faux News. So, with all that hate, allegedly directed at you, according to a network owned by an ex-pat Auzzie, would you not feel, um, scared and stupid? Perhaps ready to storm the Capital Building? Sure, you would. Idiots.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by sigterm on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:05AM (13 children)

    by sigterm (849) on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:05AM (#1197294)

    The presence of people who believe in the existence of so-called "hate speech" is indeed becoming "increasingly problematic."

    Such people insist that this supposedly omnipresent phantom is so dangerous that any and every liberty should be curtailed, all speech censored, and any perpetrator permanently shunned.

    So now we have Codes of Conduct and Diversity Officers everywhere, sucking up enormous amounts of resources that would be better spent doing literally anything else, making every workplace and forum intrinsically hostile to anyone who dares to disagree with the current and ever-changing narrative, whatever it might be.

    There's a new brand of religious zealots in town, and this time they've managed to put "the church lady" in charge everywhere.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by julian on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:40AM (4 children)

      by julian (6003) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:40AM (#1197297)

      So now we have Codes of Conduct and Diversity Officers everywhere, sucking up enormous amounts of resources that would be better spent doing literally anything else

      I think this is broadly true. As a worker I reflexively say, fuck management. But mostly I can sign off on it because I think we already have perfectly good mechanisms for dispensing with racists, sexists, and bigots of all kinds. You (meaning all of us) shame them publicly when they attempt to spread their trash ideas, you refuse to socialize or do business with them, and--crucially--you stop doing all of these things the moment someone changes their policies or behavior.

      This isn't a religion and it's not overzealous. It's just what we've always done. If conservatives want to actually conserve something from our past that's actually worth keeping around they could start with the concept of progressive change.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:27AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:27AM (#1197309)
        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:20PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:20PM (#1197422)

          You say poor victim, I say collateral damage. Potato, tomato. Let's all just agree on enemy combatant.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @02:10AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @02:10AM (#1197624)

            Parent AC touched me inappropriately! On top of it, parent AC is a fan of SpaceX, a homosexual, and has been seen near the cuddle puddle couch.

            I demand that his bank close his account!

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:21PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:21PM (#1197503) Journal

        The problem is they definite you using your own freedoms in a way they disagree with as infringing on their freedoms.

        So for them "Freedom of Speech" means saying whatever they fuck they want, wherever the fuck they want and they can FORCE you to let them use your bullhorn and soapbox.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by ilPapa on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:59AM (6 children)

      by ilPapa (2366) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:59AM (#1197320) Journal

      every liberty should be curtailed, all speech censored, and any perpetrator permanently shunned.

      Those three things are mutually exclusive and they are not equal. Society used to shun people who acted like the internet trash are acting today. If we got back to that conservative principle, there would be no need to curtail liberty or censor speech.

      The problem is, the people who used to do the shunning have found that joining in with hate speech, disinformation, and other antisocial hobbies of the far right feels good and makes degenerates famous, so they simply join in because they're afraid all that hate will be directed toward them. So instead of being rightly chastened, they are celebrated with anonymous "likes" which satisfy their basest desires for approval and acceptance. Once that feedback loop starts, they could no more stop being bad actors than a heroin addict can stop wanting dope.

      --
      You are still welcome on my lawn.
      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:09AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:09AM (#1197353)

        Citations needed for any of that. And, no, CNN is not a citation. Some serious studies, from somewhere other than a liberal non-profit "think" tank. I can wait . . .

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:18AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:18AM (#1197356)

          OK, this just in from Satan's ThinkTank, Inc., Turns out everything you thought was true, and wanted to have confirmed by, um, somebody, is actually true. The citation is given. Truth is in. Trust in the Plan. Where we go to hell, we all go the hell. Semper Ignis!

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by epitaxial on Thursday November 18 2021, @01:50PM (2 children)

        by epitaxial (3165) on Thursday November 18 2021, @01:50PM (#1197388)

        Actual conservatives would agree that a company that makes employees wear masks is free to do so. You aren't required to be employed by them so find employment elsewhere if you don't like it. Nope instead they make a law saying a company isn't allowed to do that.

        Modern day conservatives make Ronald Reagan look like a leftist.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:00PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:00PM (#1197470)

          Actual conservatives

          Now there's your problem. The term "conservative" has been used to describe just about every political position imaginable, from pro-serfdom, to pro-slavery, to pro-monarchy. Just about the only consistent thread in conservatism is the belief that would-be reformers should shut up and go home, so that everybody can go back to business as usual.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:52PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:52PM (#1197751)

            You missed pro-colonialism.

      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:23PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:23PM (#1197423)

        > Society used to shun people who acted like the internet trash are acting today.

        Well it's not even a debate. One side is looking at facts (or close to) while the other is spouting off about space lasers run by The Jews. Uh OK, you win.

    • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:19PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:19PM (#1197501) Journal

      Freedom of Association means I have the Liberty to not hang around with fuckwits.

      Freedom is a two way street. Don't like my rules you have the freedom to get the fuck off my property.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by darkfeline on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:25AM (20 children)

    by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:25AM (#1197295) Homepage

    What do they mean by reliable sources? Most so-called reliable sources nowadays are anything but. Of course the mainstream media report that mainstream media sources are reliable (news at 11), but they lie out their asses and shit out their mouths.

    It doesn't surprise me that members of the cult (users loyal to "reliable" sources) are on average more toxic. It's what they do. Meanwhile, users of "questionable" sources (read: honest sources) would be more likely to behave rationally and pursue facts instead of using personal invectives and twisting facts to push a narrative.

    From the article:

    > A questionable YouTube channel is a channel producing unverified and false content or directly associated to a news outlet that failed multiple fact checks performed by independent fact checking agencies.

    Hahahaha. Yeah, no.

    --
    Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 5, Funny) by Mykl on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:24AM (6 children)

      by Mykl (1112) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:24AM (#1197308)

      I prefer Breitbart over the New York Times for in-depth journalism too.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Mockingbird on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:40AM (2 children)

        by Mockingbird (15239) on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:40AM (#1197329) Journal

        I prefer Breitbart over the New York Times for in-depth journalism too.

        Andrew Brietbart is dead. Steve Bannon is indicted. Milo Yankmyjunkalot is no longer gay. It's over, alt-right. It was a good run, but it is over. Time to reconsider your life, and adopt a sustainable political philosophy.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:27PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:27PM (#1197428)

          Join the Russian troll farms that inspired them. Hey at least Brexit was a success, right?! And Trump must be 50-50 for becoming the Great Dictator in Chief, at least until the train wreck finally comes to a halt and people will finally say... OMG it's a train wreck.

        • (Score: 2) by Captival on Friday November 19 2021, @03:32AM

          by Captival (6866) on Friday November 19 2021, @03:32AM (#1197644)

          Every Libtard on planet earth uses this exact same tactic and it never works.

      • (Score: 3, Offtopic) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:55PM (2 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:55PM (#1197445) Journal

        The New York Times lied to get us to invade Iraq. Remember their reporter Judith Miller, breathlessly confirming every lie the Bush Administration told?

        The New York Times let Jayson Blair fabricate stories whole cloth for years.

        The New York Times employs an editor who has made openly racist statements for years.

        The New York Times just published protected legal communications between a rival news organization and their lawyers, given to them by the FBI, which is a direct assault on the freedom of the press.

        Is that the New York Times you're referring to, or is there some other source that is not a farce?

        I'll give this one to you for free: if you want to read actual news from actual journalists who actually do their homework and don't give a crap who gets upset, read Glenn Greenwald on Substack or Matt Taibbi.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Thursday November 18 2021, @11:16PM (1 child)

          by Mykl (1112) on Thursday November 18 2021, @11:16PM (#1197603)

          Nobody's perfect, and I agree that mistakes have been made at the NYT, and all other new outlets/sources/aggregators including the Associated Press, Reporters without Borders etc. We're all human.

          It's important to look at intent when examining news outlets though. For example:

          • The purpose of News Corp is to further Rupert Murdoch's personal agendas (he has explicitly said as much multiple times in the past)
          • The purpose of Breitbart is to propagate culture wars and promote the far-right, regardless of positions and facts
          • The purpose of the New York Times is to provide in-depth reporting on US and world events
          • The purpose of Glenn Greenwald / Matt Taibbi is to highlight stories in the mass media that they feel are being mis-reported

          Some of these outlets have 'good' intentions, others not so much. I'm not going to stop reading a particular outlet because a few of their articles have been questionable, provided their overall mission and output remain worthwhile.

          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 20 2021, @03:06AM

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday November 20 2021, @03:06AM (#1197983) Journal

            I agree that mistakes have been made at the NYT, and all other new outlets/sources/aggregators including the Associated Press, Reporters without Borders etc. We're all human.

            Yes, we are all human. But that's not what the NYT and their confederates say. They arrogate to themselves the absolute truth and fact in the world. Maybe it once was true, but after all I have cited it is not true anymore; so they should enjoy no advantage from the redolence of what they once were.

            Read Glenn Greenwald. Read Matt Taibbi. Read Julian Assange. They all risked their lives and careers to report on what the elites are doing. Glenn and Matt are still out there, thank goodness, but we can all see what has been done to Julian to know the cost of truth and fact in today's world.

            If your own sacred cows are not in danger of BBQ, then you're not getting anything close to the truth. Mark this, and reflect. Human freedom has not been in this much danger for a century.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:18AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:18AM (#1197322)

      What do they mean by reliable sources?

      Whoever funded their study.

    • (Score: 2) by epitaxial on Thursday November 18 2021, @01:53PM

      by epitaxial (3165) on Thursday November 18 2021, @01:53PM (#1197389)

      When you speak of the "mainstream media" you're talking about Fox, correct? They are the highest rated cable news channel.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2021/09/28/fox-news-crushes-competition-in-3q-cable-news-ratings/ [forbes.com]

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:53PM (10 children)

      by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:53PM (#1197443) Journal

      Or perhaps it is better explained by a natural difficulty dealing with a grown ass adult that claims the moon is made of green cheese and the earth is flat.

      It's the same dismissiveness that Arthur expressed in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" when the limbless black knight continued threatening him.

      The frustration that a person who cannot or will not acknowledge plainly evident objective reality continues to prattle on in an apparent effort to drown out rational conversation.

      It's the same urge to laugh I once had downtown seeing two noisy street corner preachers get into a knock down drag out catfight while both shouting about how we must repent our sins.

      It's true that the mainstream media is no paragon of truth and accuracy, but that doesn't mean the babbling village idiot has anything better to say.

      • (Score: 2, Redundant) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:00PM (6 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:00PM (#1197447) Journal

        It's true that the mainstream media is no paragon of truth and accuracy, but that doesn't mean the babbling village idiot has anything better to say.

        It also doesn't mean there aren't others who do have something better to say. The corporate media and Big Tech are lying and censoring all over the place. They represent an existential threat to our constitutional rights. The government and the Beltway are in lockstep with them on that.

        If you want honest voices these days, you must look to those who aren't in on the scam, that is, the outsiders. You can easily tell who they are because they are the ones who are not using the same talking points that the scammers are. They say things that contradict those talking points, or that are dissecting them to discern what is true and what isn't.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:37PM (5 children)

          by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:37PM (#1197459) Journal

          Not quite. Simply believing the opposite of a bad source will only send you to bizarro world. If the broken clock says it's 6:00, the correct conclusion is not that it is never 6:00. The problem comes in when people rightly conclude the town crier is unreliable and so they believe ANYone saying something different. In reality, it is possible that sometimes the town crier is correct. It is also probable that the mumbling bag lady is just mumbling nonsense, it's a mistake to believe her just because she disagrees with the crier.

          If the town crier claims that the King is a hero and you shouldn't drink furniture polish, it's fine to disagree with the first point, but some people run out for a cool refreshing bottle of furniture polish in the process.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:28PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:28PM (#1197481)

            Doubtful p666 will listen, he went down the rightwing rabbit hole long ago. Your point was very well said though, maybe he'll get the point.

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:49PM (1 child)

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:49PM (#1197557) Journal

              sjames authored a post in which he was making an argument, without any ad hominem like you have done, and I replied in like fashion. It's what adults do.

              Give it a try.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @12:45AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @12:45AM (#1197616)

                But, it's true, p666 used to be a good soylentil. But then he got old and cranky, and more Runaway-like. Not a fallacy if it's true, so not an ad-hom.

          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:46PM (1 child)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:46PM (#1197555) Journal

            I responded to a post that posited the choice was between the mainstream media and a babbling village idiot, meaning, that there is no other possible credible source. I said, not so, there are other credible choices. Elsewhere in the thread a couple of times I listed Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi as examples; they are doing what news organizations used to do, which is to do their research, investigate, and ask questions that make the rich and powerful and complacent uncomfortable.

            So what you are pointing out is actually something I didn't say, which is to believe the "babbling village idiot." Your construction is binary, Media OR babbling village idiot, and my claim is that there are more than two choices, and some of those choices are better than either of the choices in your construction.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:11PM

              by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:11PM (#1197565) Journal

              Actually, I made no claim that there were only two sources, just that some alternatives are as bad or worse than the mainstream. My comment was that much of the name-calling and "toxic" comments are directed at those who choose the village idiot as their alternative source simply because he is saying things that oppose the mainstream and that the nature of those comments likely reflects extreme frustration.

              My construction was open and contrasted two of many options.

              Sometimes the correct source is the little boy laughing at the Emperor for parading about naked.

      • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:13PM (2 children)

        by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:13PM (#1197567) Homepage

        Dismissiveness != toxicity. Your argument falls flat. If it is simply a case of dealing with imbeciles, you would just ignore them.

        --
        Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
        • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:45PM

          by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:45PM (#1197579) Journal

          Wow! That didn't sound at all desperate!>

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:59PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:59PM (#1197755)

          I mean, it would be great to ignore imbeciles, but the problem is they keep getting elected, making them much more dangerous to ignore.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Frosty Piss on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:09AM (14 children)

    by Frosty Piss (4971) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:09AM (#1197304)

    It’s interesting to see how many of the non-“woke” views, however well argued they may be, are more or less automatically rated as trolls. Apparently open discussion here is not all that open.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:20AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:20AM (#1197323)

      Careful. Noticing things is almost a crime these days.

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:29PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:29PM (#1197429)

        You poor, poor victims. Is nobody listening to your whining? I'm soooorry.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:13AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:13AM (#1197333)

      Non-woke, well argued? Are you familiar with the concept of contradiction? Non-woke means, asleep, unaware of the real world. Ignorant, stupid, conservative, Republican, and thus they are, actually, trolls. Discussion here is open, to persons willing to engage in rational discussion based on facts. Right-wing Nut-jobs? Not so much. Have you met khallow? Have a go with him, if you dare.

      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:15AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:15AM (#1197334)

        Dare? Arguing with khallow is a fun hobby, just call him stupid and watch the thread grow.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:33AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:33AM (#1197336)

      Slamming you pretty hard too.

      How much do you wanna bet that all the downmodders here are democrats?

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:55AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:55AM (#1197348)

        Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, anonymous comment posting has temporarily been disabled. You can still login to post. However, if bad posting continues from your IP or Subnet that privilege could be revoked as well. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner or login and improve your posting. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email admin@soylentnews.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "d204c4255513d11f227ec4ce362dc5d7" and "66240b9c2b446bf1a3456a3cf0c3923" and (optionally, but preferably) your IP number "00.00.000.001" and your username "FatPhil".

          Downmodders here are not crazy persons. This is the way it goes now. "Democrat" means nothing. Anti-fa is not an actual thing. But Republican! We have to distinguish between the old school corporate racists, who just want to keep wages down in certain industries, notably Kock Bros. paper, and real racists and "libertarians" like the Kock Bros (one down, one left to go).

        Then there are the flat out racist white supermacists, really stupid fucks like Matt "I did my MiL" Heimlich [wehuntedthemammoth.com]. And demented Richard Spencer [yahoo.com], who also cannot afford competent counsel, apparently.

        And now, with the decapitation videos, not of AlQuaida or ISIL, but from Republican, Paul Gosar [youtube.com] , joining a rather select list of assholes of history [house.gov], so, yeah, must be Democrats, down-modding the Republican violent Nazi positions. Or, it is normal people. What you sick radicals call, "normies". Normies gonna kill your ass, just like in WWII. Expect us, we are the Allies.

        Oh, and I forgot the really stupid Fundie Christians who cannot even read their own Bible, and somehow think Trump is an epitome of Biblical virtues, without sin! Outside the fornication. And the Usury. And the Idolatry. And the eating pizza with a fork. Some sins are just unforgivable.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:35PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:35PM (#1197552)

          Expect us, we are the Allies.

          Say goodnight, ari

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:38AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:38AM (#1197338)

      Don't throw stones, piss boy.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:14AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:14AM (#1197362)

      Shocking no one at all the unhinged lunacy of repugnicans gets voted down. Anyone using woke as an insult just shows how dumb and or hate filled they are. What are you trying to say? Caring about inequality and demanding justice is bad now? I realize you lot get lied to all the time, but still how can you not see through the lies after a short time? Must be why they are constantly hopping to new issues, keep conservatives constantly worried about new 'threats' otherwise after a decade of the same liberal monsters even boomers would realize their media is full of shit.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @10:46AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @10:46AM (#1197370)

        The problem with the term woke is the same as any other broad brush grouping. It's inevitably overbroad, and rather than address the specific issue in context when it happens (individual detailed cases of racism, particularly institutional), we use the term woke and discard all nuance.

        No matter how good your argument is, virtue signaling "woke" or "non-woke" is detrimental to the discussion.

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:11PM (3 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:11PM (#1197453) Journal

      Those who accept the Woke narrative feel comfortable in it, because the media, government, and Fortune 500 companies are driving it. They don't feel the need to defend it, because repeating it ad nauseum is much easier. Goebbels did say that repeating a lie 10,000 times makes it indistinguishable from the truth, but that's not ringing any alarm bells with them right now.

      If they were alert, they would be still be questioning Big Tech, the media, the government, the Fortune 500, and all the usual players as closely as they used to. They would be asking if it's a good thing for a couple of giant companies to have the power to silence voices they don't like. They would be asking if it's really a good thing for communities of color who have struggled with economic disadvantages in the US to have to compete with millions of illegal aliens who will work for less than minimum wage and displace them in the job market. They would ask why it's OK for the government to sic the FBI on parents who attend school board meetings.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:32PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:32PM (#1197483)

        *eyes be a rollin'*

        There are solutions but you'll have to put the Fox News down before you stand a chance of doing more than regress into rambling rightwing talking points.

        • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:52PM (1 child)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:52PM (#1197558) Journal

          There are solutions but you'll have to put the Fox News down before you stand a chance of doing more than regress into rambling rightwing talking points.

          Oh yes. The magic solutions that are unknowable to any except the hyper-intelligent like you?

          Can you write or argue in anything that is not a rambling, spastic woke talking point? I doubt it, because if you could bring it, you would.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @05:10AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @05:10AM (#1197657)

            To be fair, he does write the occasionally semi-coherent blog. The one about Kant being the source of CRT was at least factually correct (he isn't). Of course the context was still the usual propaganda and bullshit.

  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:11AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:11AM (#1197354)

    I love you people - all of you.

    --
    ...and I'm not even drunk

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:21AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:21AM (#1197357)

      But he has been hosed by Ghostbusters II!

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @12:14PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @12:14PM (#1197376)

    You have your shit people, i have my shit people, and there is one waterhole.
    And we have the rules of engagement.

    If there were more waterholes, nobody would give a shit.

    Also, what is a waterhole varies between groups and situations.

    Some people consider the internet as a waterhole, and they engage the "others" on it.
    They try to take away the internet and the freedom to express non-politically-correct opinions by labeling it hate speech.

    In the arsenal of this particular group is also the misuse of diversity.

    As example, diversity today is a product of 2 factors:
    1. biological "channel separation": if u have a woman, how far away is the offspring from a "woman"? The time did grind away the alphas and others male types, and a lot of men today are female entities trapped in a male body. Hence u have homosexuality.
    2. a lot of chemicals disturb biology and hormones, thus creating more diversity.

    This is science. This should be easy to live with.

    But now, some use the diversity to ruin the day of everyone who is not interested in the topic, and use it to induce unwanted impressions of bestiality and other disturbing stuff, and thus wining the war by inducing extreme disgust that leads to antisocial behavior in the victim.

    I am very much against diversity, cuz i cant get away from the actual fucking topic, even if i do not care what people do in their free time, off work.

    -zug

  • (Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:24PM

    by looorg (578) on Thursday November 18 2021, @02:24PM (#1197394)

    So this whole thing is based on comments of Italian youtube videos related to or where COVID was the topic. One would think that sort of puts some limitations to or on the sort of hate speech involved. But who knows. Commenters might not be very rational so they might drag all sorts of things into it.

    "There are still ambiguities in the very definition of hate speech, with academic and relevant stakeholders providing their own interpretations, including social media companies such as Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube."

    I can't really find, easily, what their own definition here is except in quite vague statements or groups (acceptable, inappropriate, offensive and violent). So they had four people annotate the comments and make judgements over in which group a comment should be tagged or belong.
    In general this appears to be a problem in that they can't even agree upon what is hate speech or not. There might be the clear cases but then there is most likely a very large fuzzy thing in the middle. That doesn't even take into consideration that what is considered hate speech might very well change by context and over time as more and more things get included in the hate field. What was one acceptable can easily over time slide over into the inappropriate and offensive. If only someone gets offended by it.

    Although we cannot exclude that moderation efforts put in place by YouTube (if any) might partially impact these results

    So Youtube might already have deleted the really hateful things that broke their own codes of posting before the data reached the researchers. That could explain why they don't find any sign of the "pure haters".

    users are more prone to use inappropriate, violent, or hateful language within their opponents community (i.e., out of their echo chamber)

    By their third conclusion it seems that what they did find is that some users, of different opinions, like to troll each other by tossing gas on the fire.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:24PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:24PM (#1197425)

    It's nothing more than a censorship excuse.
    What is "hate speech"? It's whatever effectively criticizes. Stamp it out!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:34PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:34PM (#1197432)

      Also, moderation should be banned. Let the Spam be Free(tm).

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:38PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @03:38PM (#1197436)

        I browse all comments.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:15PM (9 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:15PM (#1197454) Journal

    The trouble with, and fatal flaw of, calling any speech "hate speech" is that it depends entirely on who you're asking to define what hate speech is. That is, there is no objective measure of what constitutes hate speech.

    The answer to speech you don't like is more speech, not censorship. Churchill said, "jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war." If we don't listen to him, we will get war, war, war. I guarantee it.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:59PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:59PM (#1197468)

      The answer to speech you don't like is more speech

      Thing is... this only works so long as the noise doesn't swamp the signal. There comes a time when some folks should STFU for $DEITY's sake.

      --
      / Hush hush / Keep it down now / - 'Til Tuesday, Voices Carry

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:23PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:23PM (#1197480)

        Yes, only APPROVED speech should be allowed.
        Someone told me about the First Amendment and free speech being one of the foundations of our country, but I had him reported. All the sources I choose to read tell me that isn't true.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:29PM (#1197482)

          Excess of speech is a deadly poison.

      • (Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:34PM (2 children)

        by looorg (578) on Thursday November 18 2021, @07:34PM (#1197535)

        Who decides what is the noise and what is the signal? It might, it probably is, be different for different folks. So you just land in another definition problem.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:57PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:57PM (#1197562)

          By definition, noise contains no information.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @10:17PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @10:17PM (#1197590)

            That's an interesting point. What if we used the tools of censorship to tamp down the noise instead of targeting wrongthink? It would be informative to see the results if there was a platform that blocked all of the regurgitated talking points, memes, truisms and such but otherwise allowed all novel arguments and ideas.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:41PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @06:41PM (#1197511)

      This. It always amazes me that the people pushing systems of censorship and control think they they will always be in charge and will always get to decide what is censored and who is controlled. My personal test if something is a good or bad idea is how I would feel about it if extremists on the 'other side' were in control of the system. If it's a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now. For those in the USA, how would you feel if Trump and company had got to decide what is 'hate speech' and control you accordingly? How would you feel if AOC gets to decide? Once the system exists, it can and will be used against you once the 'other side' gets control, which they will eventually. The only winning move is not to play.

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:56PM

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday November 18 2021, @08:56PM (#1197561) Journal

        My personal test if something is a good or bad idea is how I would feel about it if extremists on the 'other side' were in control of the system. If it's a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now.

        That is an excellent test. Everyone should use it.

        The people who support using the FBI to intimidate parents who attend school board meetings will really not like it when the people with ideas they don't like get control of the FBI and return the favor. (Of course, I personally think it might be time to dissolve the FBI; they got a second chance after the Hoover era and yet here they are attacking democracy again)

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 19 2021, @02:48AM

        by Reziac (2489) on Friday November 19 2021, @02:48AM (#1197632) Homepage

        "You should not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would
        do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered."

        -- Lyndon B. Johnson, 36th President of the United States

        .

        --
        And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
  • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Entropy on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:24PM (2 children)

    by Entropy (4228) on Thursday November 18 2021, @04:24PM (#1197456)

    Like pointing out that Rittenhouse only shot white people, or that his attackers had guns. It really is inconvenient when you try to paint him as a racist.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:36PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @05:36PM (#1197484)

      Uh oh idiot alert! Careful of that fake noose, might hurt yourself!

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18 2021, @09:20PM (#1197568)

        Careful of that fake noose

        ... But enough about Jussie Smollett. [wsj.com]

  • (Score: 2) by srobert on Friday November 19 2021, @04:04PM

    by srobert (4803) on Friday November 19 2021, @04:04PM (#1197740)

    misinformation: Any statements that we happen to disagree with.
    reliable sources: Sources that disseminate exclusively information that we deem correct.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:38PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19 2021, @04:38PM (#1197750)

    In other words, they massively overfit their data, then shoved it into the overfit amplification array, binned it down, flipped it and reversed it.

(1)