New homes in England to have electric car chargers by law:
New homes and buildings in England will be required by law to install electric vehicle charging points from next year, the prime minister is set to announce.
The government said the move will see up to 145,000 charging points installed across the country each year.
New-build supermarkets, workplaces and buildings undergoing major renovations will also come under the new law.
The move comes as the UK aims to switch to electric cars, with new petrol and diesel cars sales banned from 2030.
A turkey in every pot, and a charge point in every garage...
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New Homes in England to Have Electric Car Chargers by Law
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by Frosty Piss on Tuesday November 23 2021, @12:40AM (4 children)
I like the style of the Tesla, but have zero interest in “self driving” cars, both because we are simply a long way off from an adequate level of safety, and I actually enjoy driving. With electric being the future, it’s time to revisit *modern* nuclear energy.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @12:58AM
Interesting but will you be visiting Peppa Pig World? [metro.co.uk]
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:15AM
You may like the external style of the Tesla, but do you like the built-in safety-score?
https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score [tesla.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @07:17AM (1 child)
Teslas are ugly and the only electric car i would accept is one that is fully automatic, for free that is. I have no interest in driving those things.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @08:42AM
You sound so very privileged. Progressive, even. Are you a Democrat from Portland?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Spamalope on Tuesday November 23 2021, @12:56AM (13 children)
There were just news stories about power grid problems in New England. Add up fast charger current x 2 cars a house and where does that leave you? Now try a house with driving teenagers.
Where is the plan to build the power plants needed? Nuke plants to be green, right?
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:31AM (5 children)
The story is about England, not New England.
Also, cars charge at night when power demand is low, so it won't stress the grid much.
(Score: 5, Informative) by maxwell demon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @08:20AM (4 children)
When everyone charges the car at night, the power demand at night won't be low any longer. Note that those charging points are in residential areas where power requirements were low.
On the other hand, electric power companies are interested in selling power, so they have an incentive to make the grid able to handle it.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 5, Funny) by choose another one on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:36PM (1 child)
> When everyone charges the car at night, the power demand at night won't be low any longer.
Oh they've already thought of that, the flip side to this announcement is one that snuck out a few weeks ago that said (roughly) that _all_ new domestic charging points will be required to be "smart". Small print: "smart" means "turns off/on when we say so, not you". Pretty soon it'll decide to run in reverse, and discharge your car, when they want it to. Obviously (well, maybe) it'll credit your account for the leccy they took (because someone more important than you needed it), but when you get in in the morning five mins late to start the journey to work and find the car's got zero range your smart charger will allow you to fast-charge at a special premium "disorganized person shoulda planned better" rate.
Don't mod this funny, it's not a joke.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:18PM
You obviously have the misconception that government policy favoring the rich is not a joke. [knowyourmeme.com]
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @07:44PM (1 child)
How about we do the math, like I'm sure the UK government did?
According to the sources I found, current electric cars take about 30 Kwh to travel 100 miles. According to what statistics UK government sources were suggesting, England has 56 million people, and according to national stats has 2.4 people per household and 1.2 cars per household, so that translates to roughly 28 million cars, and each car travels an average of 7400 miles per year, so we need to come up with 2220 KwH per car, or about 60 TwH per year to charge all cars in the UK.
Currently the UK uses about 310 TwH of electricity total. And overall there's approximately 25% less electricity used 18:00-06:00 (night) than 06:00-18:00 (day), so about 125 KwH is at night vs 185 KwH during the day.
Which means yes, every car charging at night would potentially even out the day/night electrical usage to approximately flat, but that assumes that retailers, offices, and industry don't convert any of their mostly-daytime non-electric energy use (e.g. natural gas heating) to electricity. What it definitely wouldn't do is create higher nighttime usage nationwide.
Yes, I'm sure grid improvements will be in order for all of this, but again I would expect that to be a part of any wider effort to convert away from fossil fuels.
In short, it looks to me like the UK government made a completely reasonable decision here.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday November 24 2021, @05:36PM
You seriously think the UK government can do maths?
(Score: 5, Touché) by janrinok on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:19AM (2 children)
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:19PM (1 child)
American asks: Friend, you use such strange words. What are these 'other countries' that you speak of?
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @03:01AM
Its just a couple states over.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday November 23 2021, @11:28AM (1 child)
Well, at least one very big turkey at No.10.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:12PM
Pot for every turkey!
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday November 23 2021, @07:18PM
According to England (the old one), yes.
UK commits to decarbonise electricity system by 2035 [world-nuclear-news.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by crafoo on Tuesday November 23 2021, @07:41PM
I dunno, I guess this strikes me as a very, very conservative mindset. Who is to say teens will be driving? Who is to say you will be allowed 2 cars per family? Who is to say energy capacity will increase to meet these economic desires rather than government dictating a change in lifestyle instead? I mean, the Authoritarian-Greens are already trying to phase out meats, they crippled the energy supply in the UK, and the government set price controls but then didn't subsidize the companies they were essentially forcing out of business. I think you make quite a few assumptions about decisions you will have no say in.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @12:57AM (22 children)
This is typical of british lawmaking, as expertly explained in Yes, Minister.
"Something must be done! This is something, therefore we must do it."
The housing stock in the UK is inadequate, and wrapped up in a vast number of idiotic limitations, regulations and processes. Now they've just added one to the tottering pile that is mostly of interest to the well-to-do bourgeoisie, and those who would dictate to them.
But the UK government is made up of long-standing experts in the fine art of doing things that sounded like good ideas after half a dozen pints.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday November 23 2021, @01:06AM (2 children)
As long as there's money to be made for the politicians, or their friends / relations / donors, why would they care?
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by arslan on Wednesday November 24 2021, @03:04AM (1 child)
Yep sounds like every other elected or pretend-elect government out there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @04:23AM
All national governments are oligarchies.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Gaaark on Tuesday November 23 2021, @01:17AM (2 children)
"Well that's a very brave decision Minister."
"IS IT???!!??" with horrified look on his face.
"Yes, Minister...."
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 4, Funny) by driverless on Tuesday November 23 2021, @11:34AM (1 child)
Not brave, courageous: '"Controversial" only means "this will lose you votes". "Courageous" means "this will lose you the election"!'.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:22PM
James Hacker:
Why is it that Ministers can't ever go anywhere without their briefs?
Bernard Woolley:
It's in case they get caught with their trousers down.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:31AM (5 children)
the housing stock in the UK is inadequate only because they are letting themselves be invaded. If they had the strength of their forbearers, and slaughtered all invaders, there would be plenty of housing.
But they don't, so their children are raped by their new masters.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @10:25AM (3 children)
England's been conquered at least three times, by the Romans, the Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, and by the Normans.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @05:43PM (1 child)
stfu, you Bolshevik's useful idiot. White tribes don't count, bitch. The other anon was talking about their treasonous politicians helping the Jews bring in non-whites to destroy the native(white/euro, not just picts or some stupid strawman shit) population.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:26PM
Concerned passerby: "Why do you keep hitting yourself in the balls with things like Brexit?"
APK: "I HATE FOREIGNERS!! OWWWWW THAT FUCKING HURTS SCUMBAG MINORITIES!!!" *punches self in balls again*
You really should see someone professionally if you want to escape your weird self-inflicted suffering.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday November 24 2021, @07:06PM
> England's been conquered at least three times
True, and the result was always seriously bad for the existing inhabitants. Some Roman officials (strictly speaking, Romano-British) actually invited Anglo-Saxons in, hoping the incomers would be on their side in their local disputes with other Romans. Very much like Tony Blair and other European politicians welcoming immigrants on the assumption that they would vote for them in the future. In fact the Anglo-Saxons had no interest in internal Roman squabbles and swept them aside, either driving them into Wales or making slaves of them.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @05:50PM
https://odysee.com/@ETKE21:8/pbry68WhiteGenocideIsReal-InTheirOwnWords:0 [odysee.com]
(Score: 2) by legont on Tuesday November 23 2021, @05:08AM (2 children)
I am sure it's free market at work.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Dr Spin on Tuesday November 23 2021, @10:53AM (1 child)
As a UK resident, I can assure you that the market here is NOT free - it is, in fact, extremely expensive,
and the profit goes to corrupt politicians (all those in a position to steal it). Linux is free.
Self driving cars are probably safer than politicians driving cars, but we have laws against driving under the influence, so that is not the problem it might be.
And Peppa Pig is anti-male propaganda. (Have you never watched it?)
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by arslan on Wednesday November 24 2021, @05:57AM
Yea I was quite suspicious of George...
(Score: 4, Informative) by choose another one on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:48PM (4 children)
> The housing stock in the UK is inadequate, and wrapped up in a vast number of idiotic limitations, regulations and processes.
Oh it's much more than that.
40% of UK housing stock doesn't even _have_ offstreet parking, without which it isn't practical (and possibly not legal - I'm sure I've seen suppliers refuse to sell claiming it isn't) to install a charging point anyway.
For a large fraction of that housing stock it's not even possible to add off-street parking if it was a requirement for the (to be mandatory) charger - due to physical space / access constraints.
To retrofit chargers with parking spaces you'd have to raze entire streets/areas and build back at a _lower_ density which raises practical issues like where are the rest of the people who lived there before going to live - it's not as if the UK has enough housing for everyone anyway.
And that's before we get anywhere near the rules and regulations issues around planning permission, conservation areas, listed buildings etc.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @07:58PM
Depending on where that 40% of housing stock is, I'd think a lack of off-street parking wouldn't be a problem in the slightest. For instance, if you're talking about an area of Greater London with excellent access to the Underground, I'd expect a lot of would-be residents would be happy to live there and rely on those trains to get around. Or if you're a pensioner in a rural village taking occasional trips to the local shops, pub, and church, I suspect you might consider just walking because it's entirely possible we're talking about trips of 300m or so (I'm basing this on one place I visited as a kid, but I'm figuring it wasn't all that uncommon because it wasn't really a touristy spot).
I'm just an ignorant American, though, so maybe the Brits have more need of a car than I thought.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by aliks on Tuesday November 23 2021, @10:45PM (2 children)
Nonsense - they put the charging points into street lights , so you dont need a cable running out of your house into the street. You don't even need to park outside your house, you can use any connected street light
To err is human, to comment divine
(Score: 3, Insightful) by choose another one on Wednesday November 24 2021, @02:40PM
> Nonsense - they put the charging points into street lights
I actually live in a (typical English) town with large areas of terraced housing. I have never seen a charging point in a street light. I can't even see how they'd work since our street lights are the other side of the pavement US: sidewalk) from the cars - how do you run the cable without causing a trip hazard, do they go overhead on a boom somehow?
I know you _can_ put popup chargers at/into the roadside or have them permanently "up" like a parking meter, and you can probably use the street-lighting circuit for power - but someone actually has to _do_ that, and it can't be the individual householders, and, again, it ain't happening, not anywhere that I've seen. The amount of infrastructure build out required means it needs to have started years ago to be ready by 2030, and it hasn't, so it won't be.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday November 24 2021, @06:51PM
> Nonsense - they put the charging points into street lights
In a typical UK street, there are nowhere near as many street lights as houses or flats. You could have multiple outlets in a street light, but some long cable runs to the cars would be needed.
(Score: 3, Funny) by bussdriver on Tuesday November 23 2021, @06:05PM
As also shown in Yes Minister, the staff is much smarter, better educated, and far more competent than the politicians. The main problem highlighted are the staff stopping changes from happening.... which is exaggerated but realistic as the people who actually must make things work don't want to break what works already; plus they make easy scapegoats for stupid ideas (see USA which beats dead horses routinely with 40% always blaming the horse and electing the buggers.)
(Score: 2) by bussdriver on Tuesday November 23 2021, @06:07PM
Housing problems are NOT caused by the building regulations. Unless you are talking 3rd world unsafe slum shacks being prohibited. Far bigger more complex problems contribute to housing problems.
(Score: 2) by jimbrooking on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:47AM
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:25AM (9 children)
You millenials can afford neither a house nor an electric car.
Sucks to be you.
From a so-called "gen x-er"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by kazzie on Tuesday November 23 2021, @06:32AM (2 children)
I'm one country to the left of England, and at the older end of "milennial", but I did just manage to buy a house this year. The downside is that it's a terrace house where the off-road parking is down at one end of the terrace. Charging a car here would mean running a cable across two or three gardens, and then an access road. But even though that's going to be a headache in the future, it wasn't enough to be a dealbreaker. I'm going to wait five years or so before asking the local authority what plans it has for sorting this out (it's ex-council house stock).
Regarding the new ruling, if all new cars are going to be partially/wholly electric* in eight years' time, it'd be silly to continue building houses without provision for them.
*excepting a sudden come-from-behind for hydrogen fuel cells
(Score: 1) by aliks on Tuesday November 23 2021, @10:48PM (1 child)
err they put the charging point into streetlights . . . . not into your house.
.
To err is human, to comment divine
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday November 26 2021, @06:40AM
That'd still be a pickle in my specific situation: the parking bays (perpendicular to the road) are across the street from the street lamps.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @11:52AM (5 children)
Sucks to be them? They can't afford houses because they are spending their money on "lifestyle experiences" because "memories last a lifetime." I saved my money and bought a house. However, I haven't had the pleasure of talking a couple years off to travel the world out of my backpack or do a lot of other really cool stuff. My house is in suburbia and I have to commute to my job because there isn't affordable housing near where I work. I would LOVE to walk to work, walk to the grocery store, bike everywhere I need to go, but I can't do that because where I bought my house. If you insist that you must live "in the city" and be able to do all these metropolitan things, that's great, but don't bitch that you can't afford a house; you can, just not where you want it to be.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:22PM (1 child)
Yeah lots of them might be able to afford a hut in the Philippines. The commute's a bitch though.
If you're fortunate enough to get one of those 100% Work from Home gigs you just have to put up with the time zone differences and the internet connectivity (if you're not lucky enough)...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @11:59AM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:19PM (2 children)
That idea is largely BS. Baby boomers, by far, are the group most likely to travel and be able to afford it comfortably. [thewanderingrv.com]
For the most part, the reason younger people can't afford houses is because, in inflation-adjusted terms, their pay is substantially lower than their elders got for doing the same job, their rents are much higher than their elders paid for living in the same flat, and houses are about 2.5 times the amount their elders paid 50 years ago.
You saved your money and bought a house? Great, good for you. So did I, and I even managed to do it without a mortgage, by my mid-30's. But that was in large part because I was one of the minority of millennials who had significant disposable income after paying for such luxuries as a roof over my head and 2-3 meals a day.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @04:33AM (1 child)
At least in America, we must admit that the main reason for our economic dominance in the 1950s and 60s was that the rest of the world was in ashes from WW2. After they rebuilt, America faced serious economic competition. Plus industrialization of the poor parts of the country was complete by then, and the easy economic gains from that could not be repeated. Feel free to correct me or call me full of beans. I won't be bothered either way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @05:41AM
Don't forget the 70s and 80s. Those were the times when the labor-management relation went super toxic, failing to realize that other parts of the world have caught up to us, fully capable of competing and out-competing us.
We've got nobody to blame but ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by drussell on Tuesday November 23 2021, @05:22AM (2 children)
So, how are they going to power this?
Does anyone have links to the electrical infrastructure upgrade plans to support this initiative?
(Score: 4, Touché) by DannyB on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:23PM
Isn't that a problem that can be solved later? Right now, the immediate concern is to get all these charge points installed.
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(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:21PM
I did the math on it above: It turns out that if you assume that all the cars in the UK magically turn into EVs, and charge them all at night, that brings the nighttime power usage to roughly the same load as daytime.
So entirely doable if their power sources aren't solar, or they've got good storage capacity.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday November 23 2021, @06:38AM (5 children)
In a land that prides itself on thousand year old buildings, they are changing the building code. Meaning, in a few thousand years, there might be meaningful change.
(Score: 2) by Username on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:17AM (4 children)
I'd like to see someone sue when they renovate one of those medieval castles of theirs.
"Soory governah, this three two meter thick stone wall needs to be taken ah down, and castle fitted with power for muh electric."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @11:57AM
Plenty of national trust properties have EV charge points for visitors already and have done for years. It's entirely possible!
(Score: 2) by quietus on Tuesday November 23 2021, @02:56PM (2 children)
The same is true for renovating your house -- another leg with the UK's (and European governments' in general) plan to attack climate change.
There are about 400,000 listed buildings [historicengland.org.uk] in England alone. Most of them (over 90%) are cottages and other lived-in buildings, which make up the character of a typical English village (or city centre).
It is unclear how you can renovate these without loosing their character. Replacing windows with double or triple glass often isn't possible due to the wall structure. Their casing being generally some kind of PVC isn't helping either. Wall isolation isn't possible without building an extra wall on the inside of the house, making the already small rooms even smaller, and so on.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:29PM (1 child)
400,000 listed buildings means that there are about 27 million homes with no significant historical preservation needs, and probably thousands of offices, shops, and industrial buildings that can also be renovated without any historical preservationist hysterics. So presumably, they'll want to focus on the worst ones of those first, and then figure out how to deal with the listed structures.
I think a lot of Americans think the UK looks like a bunch of castles and stonework villages and such. There's definitely some of that there, but there's also plenty of mid-1950's-style suburbs and modern retail that looks an awful lot like what you'd find in the US. Don't take my word for it, just take a virtual drive around the UK on Google Earth.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Wednesday November 24 2021, @02:48PM
In addition to individually listed buildings there are over 10k "conservation areas" in UK, where whole areas are subject to extra controls, and over a million estimated houses therein (see e.g. https://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/research/energy/downloads/40house/background_doc_K.pdf [ox.ac.uk] ). Even outside of a conservation area you still need planning permission for many renovations, and among the reasons it can be denied for is: not in keeping with the character of the area.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @12:09PM (2 children)
not sure if it needs to be dc or ac charger but i hope it automatically ALLOWS and enables to send current in reverse too.
so for people who build a new english house but don't like any existing e-car designs because they cannot transport regular sized solar panels (1m x 2m) dry with any of them, to instead use the "forced onto them" -charger to charge the grid instead ...
(Score: 2) by theluggage on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:20PM (1 child)
Being sensible (unlikely for the even-bigger-cockwombles-than-usual currently in charge, but hey, we can dream...) it shouldn't need to be any sort of charger - just a suitable parking space with access to mains power so that a charger can be installed in the future. Which could be in the street, or in a communal parking area in a development where houses don't have individual driveways...
Of course, making houses with better car parking facilities is really going to help the more sustainable goal of getting people onto bikes and public transport. Not.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 24 2021, @03:49AM
my point was that e-car chargers are formost "consumption" points of energy.
this is now(?) mandated by law.
the reverse, mandating energy "production" from new houses seems to be (alot) further down the list.
also beware the ultra-super-greens pushing "walking" and "bicycling" ... these also require calories.
same like a car needs to spend energy (driving) to get energy (gasoline station), walking and buy-cycling needs energy. sorry, i am lazy ... if the sun can move me without having to digest first, why not, eh? *shrug*
(Score: 2, Interesting) by SomeGuy on Tuesday November 23 2021, @01:06PM
At the rate things are going, the ONLY reason people will ever have electric cars is because lawmakers have been purchased by the big companies to outlaw competing gas cars. Not because electric cars do what people need with few downsides, because they don't.
Electric cars are shit.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday November 23 2021, @03:16PM (2 children)
Because essentially no one owns an electric car, they're going to be a copper thief's dream.
Also expect lots of fires. Its going to be "dodgy" as diodegonewild would say. People who don't own EVs and don't plan to buy one are going to install Chinese crap that unfortunately is uninsulated and burns really well.
On the upside, the climate there is very warm compared to USA, however I imagine there are still "some" visiting trucks from Sweden or whatever that have engine block heaters and I've always thought what with the number of chargers being vastly larger than the number of EVs that "someone" is going to make a block heater adapter that accepts the universal standard EV charger. Also RVs. So ironically there MIGHT be more CO2 emissions from this plan because it'll be too easy to use/steal electricity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 23 2021, @09:29PM
"So ironically there MIGHT be more CO2 emissions from this plan"
Even if they burn coal and gas for the electricity EVs are still less polluting, and we already see countries investing in wind/solar. "MIGHT", at least the fossil fuel propaganda is fading.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Wednesday November 24 2021, @02:50PM
> "unfortunately is uninsulated and burns really well."
Just to note - insulated crap burns really well too. Particularly cladding on the side of buildings (put there to reduce CO2...)