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posted by martyb on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:47AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the We're-all-gonna-die,-eventually,-but-let's-not-speed-things-up! dept.

[Ed note: This story combines reports from two separate articles. In the first report are results comparing the likelihood of being infected (and surviving) after having one of the three vaccines that are commonly available in the US. The second report compares the risk of death that results from being infected subsequent to being vaccinated (from the same set of three commonly-available vaccines). No vaccine is perfect; get your booster when it is available; wear a mask in public indoor spaces; and get tested regularly. The life you save may be that of a family member, loved-one, or co-worker! Emphasis retained from originals.--martyb]

Breakthrough Infection Study Compares Decline in COVID Vaccine Effectiveness: Pfizer vs Moderna vs J&J:

Study in Science of more than 780,000 Veterans is the first to compare waning protection rates across all three vaccine types available to most Americans and to directly report death rates after breakthrough infection.

A new study in the leading journal Science reviewed COVID-19 breakthrough infections among 780,225 Veterans, finding that vaccine protection declined from 87.9% to 48.1% during the 2021 Delta surge in the U.S. The researchers from PHI, the Veterans Affairs Medical Center and the University of Texas Health Science Center found a dramatic decline in effectiveness for the Janssen (Johnson and Johnson) vaccine, from 86.4% in March to 13%.1 in September. They also found that vaccination of any type was protective against death among infected individuals.

As COVID-19 breakthrough infections continue to emerge in some vaccine recipients and health authorities are developing policies around booster vaccinations, national data on COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections is inadequate but urgently needed. Now a study from the Public Health Institute, the Veterans Affairs Medical Center and the University of Texas Health Science Center published today in the journal Science analyzed COVID infection by vaccination status among 780,225 Veterans.

Researchers found that protection against any COVID-19 infection declined for all vaccine types, with overall vaccine protection declining from 87.9% in February to 48.1% by October 2021.

  • The decline was greatest for the Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) vaccine, with protection against infection declining from 86.4% in March to 13%.1 in September
  • Declines for PfizerBioNTech were from 86.9% to 43.3%
  • Declines for Moderna were 89.2% to 58%.

While most previous studies have focused on the PfizerBioNTech or Moderna vaccines, the Science study is the first to compare protection declines across the three main vaccine types, and the first to show the comparably dramatic decline in effectiveness for the Janssen vaccine. Declines were assessed over the period February 1, 2021 to October 1, 2021, reflecting the emergence and dominance of the Delta variant in the U.S. Patterns of breakthrough infection over time were consistent by age, despite rolling vaccine eligibility, implicating the Delta variant as the primary determinant of infection.

Importantly, vaccination of any type was protective against death among individuals who did become infected. The relative benefit of vaccination for protection against death was greater for persons under 65 but was also very strong for persons over 65.

Study compares decline in effectiveness for Moderna, Pfizer, Janssen vaccines; and mortality consequences:

For those under 65 years old, vaccines overall were 81.7% effective against death.

  • Protection against death was greatest for the Pfizer vaccine, at 84.3%.
  • Moderna was the next most effective, at 81.5%.
  • Janssen was 73% effective.

For those 65 and over, overall vaccine effectiveness against death was 71.6%.

  • Moderna was 75.5% effective.
  • Pfizer was 70.1% effective.
  • Janssen was 52.2% effective.

"Our study gives researchers, policy makers and others a strong basis for comparing the long-term effectiveness of COVID vaccines, and a lens for making informed decisions around primary vaccination, booster shots, and other multiple layers of protection, including masking mandates, social distancing, testing and other public health interventions to reduce chance of spread," said Dr. Barbara Cohn of PHI, the lead author of the study. "For example, the CDC recommendation for boosters for all Janssen recipients over 18 is supported by our results. And, given the declines in vaccine protection and the dominance of the more infective Delta variant, we urge swift action to promote primary vaccination, boosters and to also encourage masking, social distancing and other layers of protection against infection. This is supported by our finding that breakthrough infections are not benign, but also by the strong evidence that vaccination still protects against death even for persons with breakthrough infections, compared to persons who become infected and are not vaccinated."

The FDA authorized Pfizer boosters for some groups in September and Moderna and Janssen boosters in October, and the CDC has made similar recommendations, including supporting a "mix and match" approach that allows people to choose any of the three vaccine boosters regardless of which they were given initially.

Journal Reference:
Barbara A. Cohn, Piera M. Cirillo, Caitlin C. Murphy, et al. SARS-CoV-2 vaccine protection and deaths among US veterans during 2021, Science [open] (DOI: 10.1126/science.abm0620)


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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:55AM (16 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:55AM (#1201066)

    This really is like the flu vaccine. Every year, for Covid season, get your shot!

    If covid season doesn't end, shots twice yearly. Make that three times yearly, because 50% isn't Safe!

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by khallow on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:04AM (13 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:04AM (#1201069) Journal

      If covid season doesn't end, shots twice yearly. Make that three times yearly, because 50% isn't Safe!

      'I suppose you could get covid annually instead. But then I get annual flu shots already so I guess I just don't have the right outlook on this.

      • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:46AM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:46AM (#1201090)

        Have you been getting your common-cold shot, too?

        No? What an asshole. Think of all the old people you're causing pneumonia in!

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:56PM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:56PM (#1201144) Journal

          Have you been getting your common-cold shot, too?

          Only because nobody offers one with a good cost/benefit to it. Given how successful we've been with a vaccine for covid, maybe we'll see a common cold shot in the not-so-distant future.

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:40PM (1 child)

            by Freeman (732) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:40PM (#1201173) Journal

            COVID-19 is one strain of virus. Common Cold Viruses [xkcd.com]

            Common cold [wikipedia.org] (Empahsis mine)

            The common cold, also known simply as a cold, is a viral infectious disease of the upper respiratory tract that primarily affects the respiratory mucosa of the nose, throat, sinuses, and larynx.[6][8]
            [...]
            Well over 200 virus strains are implicated in causing the common cold, with rhinoviruses, coronaviruses, adenoviruses and enteroviruses being the most common.[13] They spread through the air during close contact with infected people or indirectly through contact with objects in the environment, followed by transfer to the mouth or nose.[3] Risk factors include going to child care facilities, not sleeping well, and psychological stress.[6]

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          • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @02:46AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @02:46AM (#1201344)

            Omicron is the scariest virus yet. I'm not yet eligible for a booster but since Thanksgiving I've been dreaming about that feeling of the needle under my skin and knowing I am a bit safer.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:53PM (2 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:53PM (#1201195)

          If there were such a thing as a common-cold shot, you bet I'd take it, assuming the side-effects were reasonable. 1 day of feeling a bit under the weather, versus 2 weeks of unpleasantness every time some snotty kid sneezed in the room I happened to be in? That's an easy choice.

          I'll also note that there are lots of countries where wearing a face mask if you feel sick (but not so sick you can't function) is standard courtesy, and those countries have a lot fewer colds than places that don't do that. Oh, and the masking and social distancing we did for Covid also reduced flu infections and mortality a lot.

          TL;DR: Medical science - it works, bitches.

          --
          Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @01:14AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @01:14AM (#1201329)

            There are a few papers that indicates some Influenza strains were actually driven to extinction thanks to the masking and social distancing.

          • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:00PM

            by legont (4179) on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:00PM (#1201588)

            Perhaps isolating kids - bags of deceases killing grandmas - is the most effective strategy.

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:19AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:19AM (#1201096)

        I suppose you could get covid annually instead.

        Scientists suppose we could not. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 [medrxiv.org]
        "Results: SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected,"

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:19AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:19AM (#1201112)

          The rest of that sentence is important: "when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021." Confounding variable much?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:11PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:11PM (#1201206)

        "But then I get annual flu shots already"

        what a ridiculous coward.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:01PM (1 child)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:01PM (#1201244) Journal
          Because I'm afeared of the scary flu? Or maybe I just don't want to feel like shit for a week or two?
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:02PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:02PM (#1201245) Journal
            Or spread that to everyone in my office/home/etc.
    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:50PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:50PM (#1201218)

      I want them to address the issues regarding the spike protein, generated from the vaccines, inhibiting DNA repair enzymes from working correctly. Create a vaccine variant that codes for relevant proteins the body can recognize that don't do that.

      Also, don't say Adeno virus vaccines are OK because Adeno viruses are associated with cancer probably for similar reasons.

      I want these issues addressed. So far they have been mostly ignored.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:32PM (#1201269)

        Wait til you find out the EPE peptide inserted into omicron. It is a phosphomimetic for ERK's SPS motif. When the serines are phosphorylated, ERK is translocated into the nucleus by importin-7. EPE looks like phosphorylated SPS.

        So we can expect the vaccine spikes to be actively transported into the nucleus, and possibly interfere with ERK signalling too.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:14AM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:14AM (#1201072)

    I'm never leaving this basement again.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:22AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:22AM (#1201075)

      Hot Pocket sucks. Totinos "pizza" is where it's at.

      Somebody tell me which microwave burritos are the best.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:35AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:35AM (#1201078)
      • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:43PM (2 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:43PM (#1201174) Journal

        Do not microwave Totinos Pizzas. Use a Toaster Oven. Toaster Ovens are super great! Nice for giving boiled Brussel Sprouts a bit of light toasting as well.

        Boil Brussel Sprouts until they aren't hard. Toss in olive oil and salt. Then toast to your liking.

        --
        Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Freeman on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:46PM (1 child)

          by Freeman (732) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:46PM (#1201175) Journal

          Also, let's be real about this. There is no good microwaved burrito, unless you're putting all the ingredients together yourself and just happen to be using the microwave to heat the contents. Burritos are super easy to make and pretty much any attempt at your finding a tortilla, putting beans in it, some cheese, sauce, etc. will be vastly superior to anything you can buy from a grocery store's frozen foods section.

          --
          Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:51AM (12 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:51AM (#1201080)

    Any of the studies show which made the best profits?

    We should be taking their damn patents and get the whole world vaxxed, but that not what we want, is it? Nope, the virus is a cash cow, milk it for all it's worth

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:10AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:10AM (#1201085)

      You know what’s even better for big, corrupt business profits?

      Anti-vax propaganda.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:21AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:21AM (#1201088)

        maybe you explain why all of Africa hasn't dropped dead yet

        • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:22AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:22AM (#1201097)

          They are not paid to explain. They are paid to bullshit.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @08:25AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @08:25AM (#1201410)

          How many people do you see when you go grocery shopping? How many people do they see when they go shopping? You interact with far more people on a daily basis than they do. How many hours do you stay in an enclosed space? Not all of them even have fully enclosed spaces. Their fresh air exchange rate is orders of magnitude higher than 1st world countries. The fewer interactions, fewer interactions with other social groups, and significantly more fresh air all combine to reduce transmission rates. Add in significantly less overweight people, far fewer people with metabolic disease, and their elderly dying earlier from other things and you end up with the people that do get sick are less likely to die of COVID.

          So the reason Africa hasn't dropped dead is because they aren't as fat as you, their tighter social circles limit spread, and they don't hide inside afraid of the weather.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by quietus on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:37AM (7 children)

      by quietus (6328) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:37AM (#1201124) Journal

      I've tried to mod parent post interesting, but it keeps at +1 flamebait.

      I think parent is correct: first, making unlimited profit on something this essential is ethically not correct: like making unlimited profit on basic education, after you've privatized the whole system. In my opinion, the US and the EU should coordinate the price of the vaccine to their citizens, and that price should be equal for all brands. (And no, I wouldn't go for the lowest price, rather for a median.)

      Second, if you do not get the [large majority of] the rest of the world vaccinated i.e. do not invest in cheap vaccine production over there, you're pretty much guaranteed to have new variants of the virus being introduced like clockwork. I do not think this will happen though, as it implies a wealth transfer from, basically, the EU and the US, to the rest of the world -- and that would just be welcome fodder to the various versions of extreme right and left who seem to thrive on chaos and discontent.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:47AM (1 child)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:47AM (#1201125) Journal

        It seems that others are down-modding just as much as you're are up-modding. I have added 'Interesting' which is currently displayed so the software is working. Perhaps people just have strong views on the comment in question.

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        • (Score: 2) by quietus on Wednesday December 01 2021, @11:31AM

          by quietus (6328) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @11:31AM (#1201127) Journal
          Yes, ofcourse -- and thanks for the trouble of (fast) replying, janrinok. I've always wondered about the rate of commentards [theregister.com] versus readers (and subbers versus commentards).
      • (Score: 2) by Lester on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:39PM (3 children)

        by Lester (6231) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @02:39PM (#1201143) Journal

        In my opinion, the US and the EU should coordinate the price of the vaccine to their citizens, and that price should be equal for all brands. (And no, I wouldn't go for the lowest price, rather for a median.)

        I am Spanish, and I had all shots for free, as anyone I know. In fact I have not paid for a PCR test either. (well, I did really pay test and shots, but with my taxes).

        EU signed contracts to buy pfizer, moderna and astraZeneca (AFAIK not for Janssen) with a very good price. (AstraZeneca didn't honour the contract and sold doses to other for higher price)

        • (Score: 2) by quietus on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:40PM (2 children)

          by quietus (6328) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:40PM (#1201155) Journal

          Both Pfizer and Moderna renegotiated their contracts with the EU during the summer, resulting in a price increase of +25% [nasdaq.com] for Pfizer (the price went from €15.5 to €19.5)? The reason Pfizer gave was global inflation, supply chain bottlenecks, and high demand.

          Supply chain bottlenecks should hit delivery dates, not price. You could further assume that the demand factor had been calculated into the previous price. Leaves the inflation argument: which assumes an inflation rate of 25%.

          That's for the EU, which has serious economic clout. What do you think happens with lesser partners?

          • (Score: 2) by Lester on Saturday December 04 2021, @04:07PM (1 child)

            by Lester (6231) on Saturday December 04 2021, @04:07PM (#1202118) Journal

            Would each country negotiating on its own have got a better deal?
            Would hundreds retailers trying that sell to final consumer negotiating on their own had got a better deal?
            I don't think so

            • (Score: 2) by quietus on Sunday December 05 2021, @08:46AM

              by quietus (6328) Subscriber Badge on Sunday December 05 2021, @08:46AM (#1202315) Journal

              Ofcourse not -- that's my point: you should not assume that pharma companies are do-gooders which will give you a good deal because you ask nicely. Both the United States and the European Union because of the size and wealth of their population. Following that reasoning, both negotiating together would be able to get an even lower price. A lower, and uniform, price for the US and EU would mean a lower reference price for other negotiating parties, which would lead to more people having access to vaccines.

      • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:58PM

        by crafoo (6639) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:58PM (#1201165)

        People are essentially making unlimited profit off of public education. All of the administrators, and they are growing in number (and size. why are they all tubs of fat?) They make this profit at the point of a gun.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by legont on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:12AM (7 children)

    by legont (4179) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:12AM (#1201095)

    This means that protection against delta is likely about zero.

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 2) by Subsentient on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:36AM (6 children)

      by Subsentient (1111) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:36AM (#1201100) Homepage Journal

      We're on Omicron now. And this one may be the worst mutation yet.

      --
      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:43AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:43AM (#1201101)

        Sigma is gonna be fire though.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:11AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:11AM (#1201110)

          It'll probably just look cool but mostly be a loner.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @01:19PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @01:19PM (#1201132)

        Anagram

        DELTA OMICRON

        MEDIA CONTROL

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:12PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:12PM (#1201230) Journal

          OMG!! YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO MAKE THAT INFORMATION PUBLIC!!!

          SENT FROM MY TRS-80

          --
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          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:30PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:30PM (#1201293)

            You laugh but a relative on FaceBook posted a meme that "omicron" is an anagram for "moronic," which obviously means that Q is still on the loose sending us messages and we just need to trust the plan for the glorious God-Emperor to return in 20212022 and overthrow the demonic cannibalistic pedophiles and reward all the true believers.

      • (Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:16PM

        by legont (4179) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:16PM (#1201149)

        Well, it's highly contagious but hopefully mildly dangerous. Perhaps we get lucky and it'll darvin out all the other mutations and becomes a regular cold. This got to happen one day, right? Or we all be dead.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
  • (Score: 2) by looorg on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:27AM (5 children)

    by looorg (578) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:27AM (#1201099)

    They are vaccinating against death now? We can all become death immune? Immortality is finally here! Rejoice!

    While death is an eventual certainty for each and everyone of us doesn't it sound kind of weird that they are effective against death? Like as if death was somehow a guaranteed outcome if you didn't take one of the multitude of vaccines available. Clearly not everyone that got infected with have died, vaccinated or not. How high is the probability of death by this infection really? In life death is guaranteed eventually. But here I'm fairly certain that you are not guaranteed to die from this if you don't get vaccinated.

    Also should something with such a relative short effective time span really be called a vaccine? Are not vaccines supposed to grant immunity to something and not just offer some kind of temporary percentage based protection? Something that might do what you hoped it would about half, 3/4 or 13% of the time depending on time since your last shot and what was in it.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:47AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:47AM (#1201102)

      Also should something with such a relative short effective time span really be called a vaccine?

      Indeed. We don't call it a flu vaccine, we call it a flu shot.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:28AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:28AM (#1201113)

      Vaccines are called "vaccines" because of how they work. Complaining that this vaccine isn't like that vaccine is like complaining that your smart car can't tow a string of railcars or that a locomotive can't drive on the road.

    • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:00PM (1 child)

      by crafoo (6639) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:00PM (#1201166)

      The definition of vaccine was changed so that CDC could call these new gene therapy treatments vaccines and have "appropriate" laws apply.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:47PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:47PM (#1201192)

        *old man shakes fist at sky*

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:39AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:39AM (#1201114)

    Marcus Lamb has gone to be with the Lord. RIP good sir.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by darkfeline on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:40AM (5 children)

    by darkfeline (1030) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:40AM (#1201115) Homepage

    It's amazing how we can learn new things about a vaccine we made a year ago. Thankfully, we know all there is to know about the vaccine now. After all, it would be irresponsible to force people to receive medicine for which there may be unknown effects or threaten to bar them from work and public services if they don't pay for regular testing that they can't afford.

    I'm glad that I live in a society that has learned from past oppressive regimes so we don't repeat our mistakes. If you want to do it right, you've got to control all of the news and social media.

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    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Bethany.Saint on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:11PM (1 child)

      by Bethany.Saint (5900) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:11PM (#1201148)

      This is no different from every other vaccine out there. We're learning new things about the efficacy of the vaccine. Which we do and have done for years with the standard flu vaccine as the flu virus mutates. Some years it's 60% effective other years it's 90% effective. And just like the flu vaccine, effectiveness varies with age. Should we bury our heads in the sand and pretend these things don't happen just because it's Covid? Why did Republicans think the Covid vaccine would be 100% effective when that was never claimed in the first place. It was never the way this class of vaccine works? Finally, if Republicans are going to refuse to get vaccinated they why do you care what the rest of America and the world do with the vaccine.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:58PM (#1201277)

        Why did Republicans think the Covid vaccine would be 100% effective when that was never claimed in the first place

        I think the answer is obvious: it is way easier to straw-man against it if they claim it was claimed to be 100% effective and then when it (obviously) isn't then they yell about what a waste it is to take something that is ONLY 90% effective at keeping you from dying.

        I think it is worth pointing out that for all the breathless reporting on how the effectiveness has DRAMATICALLY dropped to 80%, this is still above the original estimates for how effective experts actually expected the vaccines to be in the first place:

        "I'd like it to be 75% or more," Fauci said, but he acknowledged that may not be realistic.

        The Food and Drug Administration has said that once a vaccine is shown to be safe and at least 50% effective, it could be approved for use in the U.S.

        https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/09/12/911987987/a-covid-19-vaccine-may-be-only-50-effective-is-that-good-enough [npr.org]

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:20PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:20PM (#1201232) Journal

      it would be irresponsible to force people to receive medicine for which there may be unknown effects

      You could say that about any kind of medication ever. Even aspirin. We are constantly learning new things.

      That excuse gets less credible by the day.

      Googled for update at the time of this post:

      • 7.81 BILLION covid vaccine doses given world wide
      • 3.33 BILLION people fully vaccinated against covid
      • 42.7% of world population fully vaccinated

      We now have a pretty good idea of what problems vaccinations cause, and in what percentages of large groups of people. There will always be unknowns. But it gets more and more lame with each passing day to use that tired old excuse.

      Finally, not getting vaccinated is not because of any genuine concern about the vaccine. It is pure politics. Even if one does not admit it -- even to themself.

      --
      Out of control 3 yr old grabs steering wheel of limousine and throws food against wall in temper tantrum.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @12:26AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @12:26AM (#1201319)

        The vaccine is already obsolete.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @12:14PM (7 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @12:14PM (#1201129)

    At first the cdc told the vaccinated not to get tested, then when the number of infected vaccinated people became too ridiculously high to ignore they changed to recommending two tests for unvaccinated and one for vaccinated.

    So vaccinated went from getting tested at about 1/5 the rate to 1/2 the rate of unvaccinated. It is disgusting what they are doing to you all.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Bethany.Saint on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:25PM (6 children)

      by Bethany.Saint (5900) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:25PM (#1201169)

      Yeah, science is like that. It changes when we got more knowledge. That's why it's science and not religion or political dogma.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:17PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @05:17PM (#1201184)

        Its been known for decades you dont get long lasting immunity to this type of virus:
        https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1009509 [plos.org]

        And further that an intramuscular vaccine won't confer mucosal immunity, which is what actually protects against infection. You need a nasal vaccine for that.

        Then the animal trials showed they could still be infected after vaccination.

        Anyone who didn't know this by the time the vaccines were approved is a science denier or listens to science denirrs.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @04:15AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @04:15AM (#1201367)

          Who the fuck modded this informative? "mucosal vaccine"?! Do you think that neutrophils cannot be stimulated from intramuscular vaccines? If so: why?!

          IANAD, but I am married to one, and she just rolled her eyes and left the room.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @04:41AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @04:41AM (#1201373)

            Interesting, since it has been known since the 1960s: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg9857 [science.org]

            Here is a lay summary for you:
            > They also point out that prior research has shown that both nasal infections and vaccinations can instigate an immunoglobulin A (IgA) response in both serum and in the respiratory system—intramuscular administration, on the other hand, can only do so for serum fluids

            https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-07-case-intranasal-covid-vaccines.html [medicalxpress.com]

            Does your wife usually roll her eyes and leave when she hears of 50 year old established science?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03 2021, @08:44AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03 2021, @08:44AM (#1201782)

              You can find citations all over the place: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962944 [nih.gov] The better and majority of studies in that reference list show that intramuscular injections do create an IgA response in the respiratory system (and the other immunoglobulins too).

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:24PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:24PM (#1201209)

        You're a dumb whore. Just like the "scientists" you worship. You probably funded the creation of the virus with your federal tax dollars like the rest of the whores, cowards and idiots. Now you take the "experimental gene therapy"/bioweapon shot and spread disease like the Umbrella corp zombie you are. Enjoy your degenerative and autoimmune diseases, slave.

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by Bethany.Saint on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:12PM

          by Bethany.Saint (5900) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:12PM (#1201283)

          The world you've currently living in is truly a scary place. I can understand why you're lashing out. I hope that in the future you'll allow yourself to understand the world really isn't like that. Conspiracies don't have to lurk around every corner. Most people, scientists included, are just trying to do the right thing and to get by. We welcome you back when you're ready.

  • (Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:29PM (20 children)

    by legont (4179) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @03:29PM (#1201152)

    The risk of death among unvaccinated in all age groups is higher *regardless of whether they actually had covid*. This effect appears to be more pronounced than the vaccine one itself. You are free to make your own conclusions, but I see it as risk takers are more likely to die, period. This bias overwhelms any usefulness of vaccination efficiency studies - pretty much all of them because nobody has done double blind since the early stages of vaccine development.

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Freeman on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:50PM (5 children)

      by Freeman (732) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:50PM (#1201177) Journal

      So, what is the risk the "risk taker" is taking? Not getting vaccinated? Getting vaccinated? Not getting their booster every 6 months? Only getting a booster every 12 months? Skipping breakfast this morning? Having a yummy lemon poppy seed muffin every morning and working for a company that does regular drug screening?

      --
      Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by number11 on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:32PM

        by number11 (1170) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:32PM (#1201268)

        I think that's "risk taker" in general.
        Crossing street without looking.
        Eating from that bulged can.
        Texting while driving.
        Believing Fox "News".
        Riding ATV without helmet.
        Y'know, freedom lovers.

      • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:14AM (3 children)

        by legont (4179) on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:14AM (#1201407)

        Look, I took vaccine while it was still barely available. I actually drove for 4 hours through a snowstorm to get it. Meantime I don't go to the office and spend my free time hiking woods and skiing. When go skiing I don't socialize but go directly to lifts. I do a few similar things but all of them a similarly antisocial.
        If I hopefully don't get covid, do you credit it to the vaccine?

        This whole thing is very similar to AIDS where one's life style was the biggest risk factor. BTW, they could not get an effective vaccine for it either.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 02 2021, @02:46PM (2 children)

          by Freeman (732) on Thursday December 02 2021, @02:46PM (#1201500) Journal

          AIDS isn't a particularly good comparison, because of the mode of transmission. AIDS is pretty much, blood transmission. So, don't do the whole blood brother, hand cutting thing and you're fine.

          The anti-social behavior certainly helps you not get random x sickness, which includes COVID-19. Considering COVID-19 is turning out to be a lot more like the flu, in terms of time to get your next booster (every 6 or 12 months). "Anti-Social" behavior may be your best defense against any future strain of COVID-19. The term "anti-social" has strong negative connotations. Maybe soon, they'll just call it pro-active isolation or something?

          --
          Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
          • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 02 2021, @06:54PM (1 child)

            by legont (4179) on Thursday December 02 2021, @06:54PM (#1201586)

            Well, AIDS forced me to use condoms, which ruined my sex life; all in the name of sexual minority I don't care about. However, it taught me an important skill to be happy with myself, which I successfully use to fight covid.

            --
            "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
            • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:25PM

              by Freeman (732) on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:25PM (#1201602) Journal

              Having sex with one partner, that you know isn't getting any on the side, fixes that. Unless you already have AIDS.

              --
              Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:53PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @04:53PM (#1201178)

      The risk of death among unvaccinated in all age groups is higher *regardless of whether they actually had covid*.

      This isn't Reddit. Cite your sources or GTFO.

      • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 02 2021, @06:58AM

        by legont (4179) on Thursday December 02 2021, @06:58AM (#1201406)

        Just read the paper in question.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:04PM (11 children)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:04PM (#1201202) Journal

      ...nobody has done double blind since the early stages of vaccine development.

      A double-blind vaccine study would be one where the person administering the shot doesn't know whether it's the placebo or the vaccine. Pretty sure they're all doing that even though COVID-positive is a pretty damn objective measurement and doesn't even need it.

      • (Score: 2) by HammeredGlass on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:23PM (9 children)

        by HammeredGlass (12241) on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:23PM (#1201208)

        COVID-positive is definetely NOT an objective measurement. The 35-40 cycles being used in PCR tests could manifest a microscopic molehill into a Martian mountain. That's why the CDC scaled back the number of cycles after Biden took office to give the appearance of fewer cases.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:26PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:26PM (#1201210)

        The person injecting it can tell because the consistency is different then saline. Then the person getting it can tell because it has characteristic side effects. Then the person deciding to test them can tell because they'll be told about what side effects they had.

        This is why you normally do an exit survey asking everyone involved which group they suspect.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:04PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:04PM (#1201201)

    "No vaccine is perfect; get your booster when it is available; wear a mask in public indoor spaces; and get tested regularly. "

    STFU, you fucking cowardly slave.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:53PM (2 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:53PM (#1201241) Journal

    U.S. confirms nation’s first case of omicron Covid variant in California [cnbc.com]

    U.S. health officials have confirmed the country’s first case of the new, heavily mutated coronavirus variant called omicron in California, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Wednesday.

    White House chief medical advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said the individual, who was fully vaccinated, had just returned from traveling in South Africa to the San Francisco area on Nov. 22 and tested positive on Nov. 29.

    “The individual is self quarantining and all close contacts have been contacted and all close contacts, thus far, have tested negative,” he announced at a White House press briefing providing more details of the case. “We feel good that this patient not only had mild symptoms, but actually the symptoms appear to be improving.”

    --
    Out of control 3 yr old grabs steering wheel of limousine and throws food against wall in temper tantrum.
    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:10PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:10PM (#1201249)

      He was fully vaccinated? Get vaccinated folks!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03 2021, @08:48AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03 2021, @08:48AM (#1201783)

        Only mild symptoms and no known transmission? Get vaccinated folks!

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