Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

SoylentNews is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. Only 17 submissions in the queue.
posted by martyb on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:02AM   Printer-friendly
from the send-out-your-kid dept.

Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start

Automakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.

Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise—they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.

In terms of technology, this remote-start feature is no different from using the fob to unlock the car. The fobs use a short-range radio transmitter to send the car a signal that is encrypted with rolling codes. The car then decrypts the signal and performs the requested action, whether it's to lock or unlock the doors, beep the horn, or start the engine. RF key fobs have been around since the 1980s, and GM added a factory-installed remote-start option in 2004 (no subscription needed).

Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.

Toyota has been offering factory-installed remote start on 2018 and newer vehicles equipped with Audio Plus or Premium Audio. To use it, owners have to be within 50 feet of the vehicle and double-press the fob's lock button before holding the lock button down for a few seconds.

Yet recently, as 2018 Toyotas have passed their third birthday, owners have been discovering that the fob's functionality is dependent on maintaining an active Remote Connect subscription. Vehicles equipped with Audio Plus receive a free three-year "trial," while Premium Audio vehicles receive 10 years. Once those subscriptions expire, though, the key fob remote start stops working. Toyota didn't change the rules, though that detail was buried in the fine print. When the time comes, Toyota simply cuts off access to one of the functions on the key fob already in the owner's possession. To get the feature back, owners have to pony up $8 per month or $80 per year.


Original Submission

Related Stories

Toyota 'Reviewing' Key Fob Remote Start Subscription Plan After Massive Blowback 27 comments

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43636/toyota-reviewing-key-fob-remote-start-subscription-plan-after-massive-blowback

Earlier this month, we broke a story about Toyota locking its key fob remote start function behind a monthly subscription. If owners of certain models aren't actively enrolled in a larger Toyota connected services plan, the proximity remote start function on the fob—that is, when you press the lock button three times to start the car while outside of it—will not work even though it sends the signal directly to the car. Obviously, this sent people into a frenzy whether they own a Toyota or not, because it was seen as a dark harbinger of the perils of fully-connected cars. Automakers now have the ability to nickel and dime people to death by charging ongoing subscription fees for functions that used to be a one-and-done purchase, and it looked like Toyota was hopping on the bandwagon.

At the time, Toyota declined to give us a detailed answer on why it chose to take a feature that doesn't need an internet connection to function and moved it behind a paywall. Today, we've got answers. Toyota now claims it never intended to market the key fob remote start as a real feature, and it also says the subscription requirement was an inadvertent result of a relatively small technical decision related to the way its new vehicles are architectured. Finally, Toyota has heard the outrage over the last week—a spokesperson told us the company was caught off guard by the blowback—and its executive team is currently examining whether it's possible to reverse course and drop the subscription requirement for key fob remote start.

Previously: Toyota Owners Have to Pay $8/Month to Keep Using their Key Fob for Remote Start


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:27AM (16 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:27AM (#1204922)

    I suspect that with all the negative publicity this is getting Toyota will soon issue a "we fixed a bug that made your remote start quit working".

    If not, a lot of people won't even look at Toyota when it's time for a new car.

    --
    I hate it when I see an old person, then realize we went to high school together.
    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:34AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:34AM (#1204923)

      It's a federal felony to install your own car starter to circumvent their access control. DMCA for the win.

      I bet nobody considered that consequence. The DMCA just says, circumvent, which usong an alternative system to start your car definitely does.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:12PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:12PM (#1205047)

        Imagine a world where companies can criminalize consumers' (oh, how I hate that word/mindset) decisions on how they use their own property by simply adding a "feature", some rent-seeking, and a little cryptography?

        They have purchased our government. Is this unclear? This comes at the point of a gun, as do all laws. When you don't comply at various levels, it will eventually be escalated to state violence with guns. That's how laws work.

        Every time you want to pass a law, you'd better imagine yourself holding someone at gunpoint to enforce it. Is that really right?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:39AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:39AM (#1205198)

          Well what are you proposing?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:48AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:48AM (#1205243)
            Get rid of the fscking DMCA.
      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:57PM

        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:57PM (#1205075) Homepage Journal

        It's a federal felony to install your own car starter to circumvent their access control. DMCA for the win.

        It has yet to be tested in court. You're replacing, not circumventing.

        --
        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:06PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:06PM (#1204961)

      > I suspect that with all the negative publicity this is getting Toyota will soon issue a "we fixed a bug that made your remote start quit working".

      Toyota have undoubtedly experimentally determined that $80/y will get the Plebs salivating for the feature to UNLOCK MY CAR WITH MY SMARTPHONE.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by drussell on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:19PM (1 child)

        by drussell (2678) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:19PM (#1204964) Journal

        Toyota have undoubtedly experimentally determined that $80/y will get the Plebs salivating for the feature to UNLOCK MY CAR WITH MY SMARTPHONE.

        No, no...

        This is NOT a fee to use a feature like OnStar's unlock by your car being connected over the cell network...

        This is a fee to be allowed to continue to use the local, RF remote feature in your FOB that starts the car! The remote door lock functionality currently remains free of charge but they intend to charge you $8 per month to maintain the ability to use your FOB's local RF interface to remote start your car!

        Your car has remote start feature (almost all cars have this hardware built in by default now) and you've paid for a package that includes access to that feature (it is enabled by the factory or the dealer at purchase) but they now want you to pay a subscription fee to continue to have that feature stay enabled beyond the included free "trial" period, which currently ranges between 3 and 10 years on most vehicles, depending on which trim level and options packages you purchased the vehicle with.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Spamalope on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:37PM

          by Spamalope (5233) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:37PM (#1204968) Homepage

          You can bet the sales staff was deceptive at point of sale as well.
          Courts so far have excused that as 'sales patter' and allow direct lies as long as the sales contract says 'no representations by sales staff count, only this document of incomprehensible to the lay person lawyer professional jargon'.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:29PM (5 children)

      by SomeGuy (5632) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:29PM (#1204983)

      If not, a lot of people won't even look at Toyota when it's time for a new car.

      Ha, ha, ha, ha. Right.

      Modern people insist on having their asses raped like this. If people had brains, they would insist that cars NOT have pointless cell-phone connected features, NOT have touch screen controls that force them to take their eyes off of the road unlike proper tactile controls, NOT have bright blue LED dashboards that make night driving impossible, and so on.

      If tomorrow, car manufacturers started producing cars with square wheels and advertised the hell out of them, everyone would still buy them up and be happy with them. Thunk thunk thunk thunk.

      I hate this planet.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:42AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:42AM (#1205199)

        Yes well round wheels are misogynist, you rapist. You'll never be good with women, and you'll never get laid. You incel. That's why Boeing has decided to upgrade our 737 Maxes to square wheels.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:56AM (2 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:56AM (#1205204)

        If not, a lot of people won't even look at Toyota when it's time for a new car.

        Ha, ha, ha, ha. Right.

        Here's the truth of the matter: If this move increases Toyota's revenue, I can guarantee you that Ford, GM, Honda, Kia, etc will follow suit. And then it won't matter that you don't want it, because there's nothing on the market that doesn't include it.

        And this is one of many reasons why oligopolies are bad for buyers. And most major industries in capitalist countries are oligopolies, at least locally.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 16 2021, @12:08AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 16 2021, @12:08AM (#1205449)

          As opposed to those bright and shining planned economies like North Korea or the old Soviet Union.

          • (Score: 2) by toddestan on Thursday December 16 2021, @03:23AM

            by toddestan (4982) on Thursday December 16 2021, @03:23AM (#1205486)

            Well, the old Soviet Union cars didn't have pointless cellphone-connected services, touch screens, and dashboards with bright blue LEDs, so there's at least that.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:13AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:13AM (#1205229)

        If people had brains, they would insist that cars NOT have ...

        Those are features for the luxury tier. Are you ready to pay for the privilege?

    • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:55PM

      by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:55PM (#1205074) Homepage Journal

      If not, a lot of people won't even look at Toyota when it's time for a new car.

      The first thing that came to my mind was exactly that; "remind me to never buy a Toyota." Even after they "fixed a bug". Whether they're evil or incompetent makes no difference to me, I don't want one either way.

      --
      mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:30PM (#1205115)

      All the automakers have started rolling out subscription fees for various things, it seems. Think it started among the luxury makers, but has spread. Don't expect this move by Toyota to change the trend, even if they do get negative publicity.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:35AM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:35AM (#1204924)

    Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.

    So, how do they enable/disable this feature, if there is no calling home?

    To use it, owners have to be within 50 feet of the vehicle and double-press the fob's lock button before holding the lock button down for a few seconds.

    Seems slower than a normal remote key. For my car I just need to press the button once and the car unlocks within 1 second (almost instantly). Even using a normal key seems faster than this.

    To get the feature back, owners have to pony up $8 per month or $80 per year.

    So, that's Toyotas price for laziness.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:41AM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:41AM (#1204925)

      I'm betting they're lying. That's how. You show me a system that doesn't ultimately connect with their servers, either via a cell modem, or a dealer interface...

      Otherwise, how could they disable it if you already have it active, unless it always had a ticking time bomb in it.

      Physics requires some communication in order to enforce this. Marketing are liars.

      • (Score: 5, Funny) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:59AM (2 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:59AM (#1204928) Homepage
        Maybe they're using a system which connects to a highty trustworthy third party server run by Uncle Akhmed in Turkmenistan?
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:04PM (1 child)

          by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:04PM (#1205007) Homepage
          How is highlighting the to-me-bloody-obvious weasel wording in "communicate with any servers managed by Toyota" a troll?
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:51PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:51PM (#1205037)

            There are a few human trolls lurking around that mod random posts as -1 Troll for the hell of it.
            I guess these mods are trolling themselves?

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by drussell on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:59AM

        by drussell (2678) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @11:59AM (#1204929) Journal

        Anything Toyota that is 2018 or newer is supposedly already set to expire at some various future point, just none of those have actually disabled yet.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:17PM (#1204932)

        Pushed OTA firmware update signed with their private key?

        Then, the car technically doesn't have to phone home, it just has to always choke down whatever code Toyota signs and *casts to your car.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Fnord666 on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:47PM (2 children)

      by Fnord666 (652) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:47PM (#1204954) Homepage

      Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.

      So, how do they enable/disable this feature, if there is no calling home?

      To use it, owners have to be within 50 feet of the vehicle and double-press the fob's lock button before holding the lock button down for a few seconds.

      Seems slower than a normal remote key. For my car I just need to press the button once and the car unlocks within 1 second (almost instantly). Even using a normal key seems faster than this.

      To get the feature back, owners have to pony up $8 per month or $80 per year.

      So, that's Toyotas price for laziness.

      I suspect that the author means that the system does not use or go through a remote server in order to use the key fob remote start feature. Presumably the car's control system does receive updates from time to time from Toyota, either through the dealership or OTA. This is likely when Toyota sends an update package to disable that feature if you haven't paid up.

      Hopefully they send the "disable that feature" code only once and someone can hack the signal, reverse engineer it, and re-enable the feature for people. Given automaker's typical security practices, it may even be possible to just perform a replay attack to re-enable the feature.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:10PM (1 child)

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:10PM (#1205009) Homepage
        From a legal CYA perspective, it's more sensible to have it as a canary. It's disabled when they stop updating the firmware with an image containing a "still keep it enabled" code. That way, none of their actions are "disabling", as it's always been disabled, just after a rolling delay. If they've decided to go down this path at all, they'll have planned it in advance, which would include getting the legal CYA team in.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:22PM

          by Fnord666 (652) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:22PM (#1205031) Homepage

          From a legal CYA perspective, it's more sensible to have it as a canary. It's disabled when they stop updating the firmware with an image containing a "still keep it enabled" code. That way, none of their actions are "disabling", as it's always been disabled, just after a rolling delay. If they've decided to go down this path at all, they'll have planned it in advance, which would include getting the legal CYA team in.

          That's an interesting idea and I wonder if someone will take the trouble to sue them over this just to find out the details during the discovery process?

    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:41PM (1 child)

      by sjames (2882) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:41PM (#1205096) Journal

      Using the feature doesn't require phoning home. Of course, the car does occasionally phone home and that's when they set the configuration bit that tells the car to ignore a remote start signal. If/when you pay the ransom, they clear the disable bit remotely.

      This, boys and girls, is why products that phone home are bad.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:54AM

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:54AM (#1205163) Homepage
        Ones that are designed to rely on phoning 3rd party servers are usually worse. That requires 6 trust relations, unlike the normal 2.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:19AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:19AM (#1205233)

      Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.

      So, how do they enable/disable this feature, if there is no calling home?

      What I want to know is how do they handle driving the vehicle to some sort of remote location that does not have any cell service. Is the vehicle effectively disabled out in the remote hinterlands? What if you cross international borders? Will the car work if it is driven to Canada? Mexico? What if you relocate to Central/South America or Europe and take the car with you? Will the car still work outside the borders of the USA?

      Also, my previous car was a Nissan Altima. It had one of these keyless fobs. It wasn't on some crappy subscription service but the keyless fob still sucked dead toads!!!

      • (Score: 1) by mce on Wednesday December 15 2021, @11:40AM

        by mce (2811) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @11:40AM (#1205267)

        Keyless fobs really do not need a cell network to work. They talk directly to the car using short range technology. The scenarios you describe are some of the reasons (but not all - think also about energy consumption and battery life) why things are done this way. Car OEMs don't want to be bothered with support calls just because a car can't be started due to lack of a cell phone network. They also don't want to be bothered with bad press about people dying in the desert or in another country because their car wouldn't start for no "good" reason.

        As an aside, note that a driver not having coverage is not the same as the car not having coverage. Any modern car most certainly does have the capability to phone home - or be phoned from home - even if/when the driver is not carrying any phone at all. The car has a phone with (soldered) SIM card built in. That SIM for sure is such that it will still have coverage when it ends up outside the car's native country - as long as there is "any" network at all, that is. So maybe not hundreds of miles into a desert or rain forest, but that's another topic, and - as said - is one of the reasons key fobs don't depend on cell coverage.

        Warning: I used to work for the company that developed most of the the core technology behind keyless fobs. I also used to work for that and other companies that developed cell phone modules for automotive use. So I might know a few things for real for once... :-)

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:23PM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @12:23PM (#1204934)

    I'm a little confused by the writeup. It is only the remote starting part that is disabled and you can still use it like a regular key fob? If so, that's pretty stupid, but not fatal. Certainly stupid enough to be not worth the bad PR, in my opinion, provided it really wasn't obvious to the buyers that it was only a temporary feature anyway. As for how it gets disabled, I'm sure it is no harder than a countdown clock running on the car.

    • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:24PM (2 children)

      by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:24PM (#1204979)
      Yes, it's the remote start feature. They are trying to do this by bundling it with their "cloud" services like remote unlock (from a phone, not the fob), wifi hotspot, and things like that. The cars have a built in cellular modem so they can phone home when they please. I'm sure as you said, they have a check-in window before they decide they can't retrieve the license and disable the features.
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:59PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:59PM (#1204994)

        So, at least in theory, if my 2018 Toyota is kept out in the boonies, where there is no cell service, then my key fob remote start feature will keep working?

        More to the point, if I can disable the cell antenna before the remote start feature is turned off, I'll continue to enjoy this feature. I recognize that the antenna may be integrated into other electronics and not very obvious...

        • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:37PM

          by kazzie (5309) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @06:37PM (#1205033)

          That could work, assuming that it hasn't already had a "free trial enabled until 2022 only" message sent to it earlier. It depends on how the system is organised.

    • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:32PM (4 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:32PM (#1205018) Journal

      I'm a little confused by the writeup. It is only the remote starting part that is disabled and you can still use it like a regular key fob?

      For now. If they are successful with this change, who knows what they'll change next year?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:17AM (3 children)

        by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:17AM (#1205183) Homepage

        Oh, something basic, like "Maintain air in tires" ...

        --
        And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:58AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:58AM (#1205205)

          Brakes

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by kazzie on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:43AM (1 child)

            by kazzie (5309) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:43AM (#1205227)

            No, you don't want to maintain air in your brakes.

            • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:16AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:16AM (#1205230)

              Well, it will happen if you don't pay

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by anubi on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:53PM (2 children)

    by anubi (2828) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @01:53PM (#1204958) Journal

    I got so fed up with all this proprietary crap.

    When I bought my "new" car, it was a 25 year old Ford Diesel E350 cargo van off of Craigslist.

    That was 6 years ago.

    Yeh, I needed to fix it up a bit. Spent twice as much for the fixings than I paid for the van itself. Similar vans are now selling for triple what I paid, so I really haven't lost money, and the van is currently up to date with maintenance issues, with most of its wear items replaced. It runs like a champ. 300,000 miles on the clock. A lot of truckers have over a million miles on these old simple mechanical diesels, providing they do not abuse them and maintain them.

    All in all, I am glad I bought the old beast and fixed it up. It's served me well for six years and I see no reason I will ever need to ever replace it. I got the van because I am getting older and I see the writing on the wall. I will need something that can haul my old geezer crap around with me. It has to be reliable. I am too old to deal with companies who won't close the deal and try to force me into crap like we are discussing now.

    It bugs the crap out of me to pay for permission to use something I supposedly own. Yes. It bugged me enough to drive me right out of the showroom and go through all the work of restoration of an older vehicle that was made before the automakers adopted this "own your customer if you can sell him your product" business model.

    --
    "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:20AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:20AM (#1205159)

      My cut off line for vehicles is when they started requiring TPM (Tire pressure Monitors) which wirelessly transmit unique ID codes from your tires. These signals are easily picked up by receivers placed along the highways, allowing for the covert tracking of all modern vehicles.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:44AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:44AM (#1205189)

        That should have been an option, particularly for older drivers for whom it would be somewhat useful.

        You can thank Ford and Firestone for this annoying mandated "feature".

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:50PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @02:50PM (#1204970)

    Expensive part: get a certified welder to do the chassis.

    Then add crate engine, transmission, all the goodies such as seats and windows.

    Roadworthy certificate, and you have a vehicle that you can actually run and maintain yourself, because fuck this bullshit.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @04:16PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @04:16PM (#1204997)

      IMO, the single most important thing to know about a kit car is that it is a prototype. The car companies build expensive prototypes before going into production and test the hell out of them to get the bugs out--and even then masses of engineers and technicians miss a few bugs...which appear as recalls later.

      A kit car will have bugs. In some cases I've seen, the owner/builder doesn't even recognize these as bugs, but any passengers will see the problems right away.

      So, as long as you are willing to put up with problems, by all means go ahead. Speaking from experience, I built a drive-able tube-frame chassis using crossmembers and powertrain from a wrecked Corvair--c.1970. It ran, but the problems were numerous and I never did built the body..although a high school friend made a nice clay model of what the body could look like.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @04:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @04:16PM (#1205310)

        Not necessarily.

        Let's consider open source car design.

        It will start at the prototype level, but pretty soon that will improve.

        Iteration 0: space frame, flat panels, etc. etc. etc. more or less installed ad hoc.

        Iteration + 1 year: nail down some specifics on, say, welding schedules, double wishbone suspensions, steering geometry, pipe radius ... blahblahblah and so on and so forth.

        If we can have 3D printed gun designs, then we can have car plans.

    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:22AM

      by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @02:22AM (#1205184) Homepage

      You can probably find a suitable body from some junker, windows, seats, and all. For that matter, the frame and suspension too. Not even build-from kit; just replace the contaminated bits. Wind up with a 1970s car electronically but fairly modern mechanically.

      --
      And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:28PM (6 children)

    by DannyB (5839) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:28PM (#1204982) Journal

    There is a new story on ArsTechnica about Toyota investing in EVs and batteries:

    Toyota opens up about its battery EV strategy, shows off new SUVs [arstechnica.com]

    The comments there are funny. Along the lines of:

    How much per month to . . .

    • use the battery charging port
    • use the electric window controls
    • etc
    --
    If you have one of those computers that makes it difficult to get work done, use Hyper-V to install Linux.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:38PM (5 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:38PM (#1205020) Journal

      Future car manual:

      Your car is only licensed for 8 hours of operation per month. To drive more, please obtain a subscription for only $20 per additional hour of operation.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:59AM (4 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:59AM (#1205164) Homepage
        Car rental's hardly a new idea.
        However, apparently they've just reinvented the concept without any of the upsides.

        Much of the world's been moving in this direction over the last decade or so. Welcome to EaaS - everything as a service. Welcome to you owning nothing and being happy (which is a misquote, as it's lacking contect).
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 1, Troll) by maxwell demon on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:35AM (3 children)

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:35AM (#1205239) Journal

          Welcome to you owning nothing and being happy

          You mean, capitalism is turning into communism?

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Wednesday December 15 2021, @10:20AM (2 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Wednesday December 15 2021, @10:20AM (#1205256) Homepage
            So like 99.9% of the people who are aware of that phrase you haven't read the full quote it's part of, then? Congratulations, you're in the majority. That gives you the power to misquote it willy nilly without having people mention to you how it's a misquote. Most of the time.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:52PM (1 child)

              by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @03:52PM (#1205303) Journal

              You didn't give any source, and your comment is the first time ever I've encountered that phrase.

              --
              The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Friday December 17 2021, @02:51PM

                by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Friday December 17 2021, @02:51PM (#1205792) Homepage
                Let me be the first to welcome you and your little settlement in Inuitistan onto the internet - keep feeding the carrier pigeons, you wouldn't want any packet loss!

                https://survivingtomorrow.org/you-will-own-nothing-and-be-happy-is-just-feudalism-2-0-ee15cefa9f1b

                https://www.quora.com/The-World-Economic-Forum-says-by-2030-you-will-own-nothing-and-you-will-still-be-happy-and-a-Great-Reset-will-occur-after-COVID-19-What-do-they-mean

                https://notoriousrob.com/2021/06/youll-own-nothing-and-youll-be-happy-yikes/

                https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrand/videos/you-will-own-nothing-and-you-will-be-happy-the-great-reset/696865630990676/

                https://www.facebook.com/awakenwithjp/videos/youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy-the-great-reset/449128019561829/

                https://genius.com/Voiddweller-you-will-own-nothing-and-be-happy-lyrics

                https://internationalman.com/articles/you-will-own-nothing-and-you-will-be-happy/

                https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/You-Own-Nothing-and-Be-Happy-by-smARTgrid/63256077.FB110

                https://yogaesoteric.net/en/world-economic-forum-by-2030-you-will-own-nothing-new-world-order-detailed/

                https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy-about-it-abb2835bd3d1

                https://www.audible.com/pd/You-Will-Own-Nothing-and-You-Will-Definitely-Not-Be-Happy-Podcast/B096QYMBY5

                https://eksisozluk.com/you-will-own-nothing-and-you-will-be-happy--7033560

                https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/youll-own-nothing-happy-simon-montford

                https://www.amazon.com/Happytalism-You-will-nothing-happy-ebook/dp/B0968XXCWW

                https://www.realsimple.com/shop/product/you-will-own-nothing-and-be-happy-the-great-reset-wef-t-shirt-freedom-goat/96ff17ae-d6cc-38b2-9234-5c36ba979f69

                Note - I've not read a single one of those, I just wanted to make it clear that it's a very widely used phrase - those were only the hits whose URL referred to the phrase explicitly (dozens more have "The Great Reset" in the URL but the phrase in question in the title of the page, but I didn't include those). Micro-lie - I've seen the Russell Brand video historically; he debunks the common use of the phrase, and is probably the only one needed to understand what's being talked about, as the rest of them probably grab the wrong end of the stick.
                --
                Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:37PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @03:37PM (#1204984)

    Meanwhile my aftermarket remote starter has no such limitations and I didn't have to pay the dealership a king's ransom to have it integrated with the ECM of the vehicle..

    Even if you bought the "official" remote starter you couldn't self install because of that ECM step.. versus a couple hours of my time installing the aftermarket product.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Username on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:09PM (4 children)

      by Username (4557) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:09PM (#1205008)

      Yeah, I bought a $100 remote start kit too. I just tap the lock button on the stock keyfob three times and it remote starts.

      Basically I unplug some connectors and plug in a tapped one in between. There's one for the ignition button to start the car, one for brake wire to step on the pedal, one for OBDII for lock signal, and one to copy and resend the key singal.

      The car even comes with a remote start feature, but the cost of enabling that was well over $100. I feel better about having a third party one. Feels like I have more control over the car. Feels like I'm sticking it to the man.

      Even if it was $10 to enable to cars remote function, I'd still buy the $100 third party kit.

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:16PM (2 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:16PM (#1205012) Homepage
        You gave lots of money to "the man" when you bought the car. The $10 you are starving him of now won't cause him to shed any tears.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:06PM (1 child)

          by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:06PM (#1205079) Homepage Journal

          He's not trying to make "the man" shed tears, he's trying to keep the EVIL CORPORATION from causing him to shed them. "The Man," sheesh... it's a corporation, not the government.

          --
          mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday December 15 2021, @01:11AM

            by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Wednesday December 15 2021, @01:11AM (#1205169) Homepage
            Not really, "the man" can be anyone in a position to exert control, it's just as useful against upper management if you're a worker, for example.

            However, why did you object to my use of it - it was directly lifted from the post I was responding to, and put in quotes to show that I thought his use was a bit hyperbolic - it's a commodity market, you don't have to give any car brand any control over you.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 2) by drussell on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:33PM

        by drussell (2678) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @12:33PM (#1205277) Journal

        The newer that vehicles get, the trickier they've become to add an aftermarket remote starter.

        It is now common to have to buy rather expensive interface modules for certain vehicles which can be programmed to bypass any security, immobilizer, and key detection features... Much of those systems is now encrypted. Even many of the car's network signals are encrypted on the latest vehicles making advanced diagnostics extremely difficult, even with $5000-class scan tools.

        You often now need to sacrifice a key that you mount permanently up under the dash to bypass the security systems and on some cars they charge you an arm and a leg for one of those additional/replacement magical encrypted comms keys...

  • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Tuesday December 14 2021, @04:46PM (10 children)

    by cmdrklarg (5048) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @04:46PM (#1205001)

    I drive a 2019 RAV4. Never knew I could do the remote start with fob before; tested it and it works. Not very useful to me, as I park in the garage at home, and I park further away than 50 feet from my office.

    I know that I could have an app on my cell phone that can do that as well as being able to lock-unlock it remotely. I used it during the 3 month trial when I first did the lease, and then cancelled it as I never use the remote start and it cost like $15 a month.

    I *think* I have the Premium Audio, so I'm good for 10 years? Not that I use remote start anyway. I'm planning to buy the vehicle when the lease is done (it's a nice ride), as my next vehicle is going to be an electric, hopefully a small pickup (which doesn't exist yet).

    --
    The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:32PM (9 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:32PM (#1205017) Homepage
      As you have experience with the feature, and appear to have a fairly neutral point of view, can you perhaps explain to me what the problem is such that this is the solution?
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:02PM (8 children)

        by cmdrklarg (5048) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:02PM (#1205043)

        I don't understand the question; what solution are we talking about?

        --
        The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
        • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:22PM (7 children)

          by deimtee (3272) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:22PM (#1205051) Journal

          I'm guessing remote start itself. I see no purpose for it either. Why would you want your car to start up if you're not in it?

          --
          If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:03PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:03PM (#1205077)

            Seems like a cold weather thing? (Or maybe hot weather, too, for A/C?

            • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:38AM (2 children)

              by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:38AM (#1205241) Journal

              No point in starting your car in that case either. There are parking heaters that give you a warm car without the engine running.

              --
              The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:13PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @06:13PM (#1205344)

                You mean, block heaters? They're slow, power-hungry, and require you plug them in and set them up, which requires going out into the weather. Remote start is just press one button. When there's a foot of snow on the ground, inch thick ice on the windshield, it's very nice to just wait for it to melt off.

                • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday December 15 2021, @09:33PM

                  by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @09:33PM (#1205404) Journal

                  You mean, block heaters? They're slow, power-hungry, and require you plug them in and set them up, which requires going out into the weather.

                  Then they are definitely not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a device that's built into your car, and burns fuel to heat your car (just as the motor would, except that you don't waste energy for pointlessly generating mechanical motion that you don't use).

                  --
                  The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
          • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:13PM

            by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 14 2021, @08:13PM (#1205083) Homepage Journal

            Living in Illinois where it gets well below -20C in January and over 38C in August, you DON'T want to get in that 60 degree car until it cools off!

            --
            mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:14PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @09:14PM (#1205110)

            Move to Florida or Arizona - SUMMER months cars cannot touched inside. You have FLORIDA wheel controls - just your little finger touching the wheel.
            Move north of the Kentucky boarder (and more south in high elevations. Interior of car is frozen.

            In both locations, leave heating/defrost or cooling on, but the car is off. Remote start and car starts up and as engine gets warmed up. The interior comes to normal.

            IF you have expensive auto, that has automatic temp controls... The car seat heaters could turn on, The fans are adjusted to temp. And so on.
             

          • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:19PM

            by cmdrklarg (5048) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:19PM (#1205332)

            I'm like you; I can stand the hot in the summer for that short time while the car cools off, or warms up in the cold weather. I grew up without remote start, and can't really make use of it with my parking situation.

            --
            The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
  • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:47PM

    by hendrikboom (1125) on Tuesday December 14 2021, @05:47PM (#1205023) Homepage Journal

    My 2005 Toyota Camry has no remote start feature (that I know of) and I like it that way. Remote start is bound to involve some kind of vulnerability.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:24PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 14 2021, @07:24PM (#1205052)

    A key is all i need. Rest is totally unimportant gadgetry and frankly , if you're so keen on gedgets , pay through the nose.
    My car and house keys have no expiration date .. :P

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:19AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @05:19AM (#1205221)

      A key is all i need. Rest is totally unimportant gadgetry...

      Clearly you live somewhere warm. When it's sub-minus-30C outside, it's not uncommon for the key-operated lock to be frozen. Even the electric locks don't work. (I don't know if that's true of other brands, but it is of Toyotas.) At those temperatures, remote start is a requirement for the interior to warm up enough to be able to open and enter the vehicle. Without it, you either need a heated garage or you accept that your vehicle isn't going anywhere for the next 4-6 months.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @11:58AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @11:58AM (#1205274)

        You know, you can heat the key in warm water or gently with a lighter, and it'll loosen up the wafers in your car's lock. As for the edge of the door, put some ass into it! Or pour warm water on it, then wipe it down.

        </newenglander>

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @04:28PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 15 2021, @04:28PM (#1205314)

          Yup, you got there before me.

          A spray bottle with hot water in a thermos is the key enabler. Depending on the weather, your car mightn't start anyway because of how cold it is and how your batteries survive. Go on, click that little button, hear the sad wug-wug-...-wug-.... of it failing to start.

  • (Score: 4, Funny) by JustNiz on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:15PM

    by JustNiz (1573) on Wednesday December 15 2021, @07:15PM (#1205348)

    >> Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise—they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.

    I love the smell of a class action lawsuit in the morning.

(1)