How extreme is the disparity between lithium and lead batteries? In 2021, the average price of one metric ton of battery-grade lithium carbonate was $17,000 compared to $2,425 for lead North American markets, and raw materials now account for over half of battery cost, according to a 2021 report by the International Energy Agency (IEA).
The imbalance of recycling is counterintuitive in terms of fresh material supply as well. Global sources of lithium amount to 89 million tons, most of which originate in South America, according to a recent United States Geological Survey report. In contrast, the global lead supply at 2 billion tons was 22 times higher than lithium.
Despite the smaller supply of lithium, a study earlier this year in the Journal of the Indian Institute of Science found that less than 1 percent of Lithium-ion batteries get recycled in the US and EU compared to 99 percent of lead-acid batteries, which are most often used in gas vehicles and power grids. According to the study, recycling challenges range from the constantly evolving battery technology to costly shipping of dangerous materials to inadequate government regulation.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @10:45AM
The real question is, why are we recycling aristarchus submissions? Why?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @10:51AM (4 children)
This problem, as so many other environmental and ecological issues, cannot be solved without a bit of stick and much carrot.
Make laws demanding that everything containing worthwhile recyclable material (lithium, lead, gold, rare-earth materials, …) can be replaced and recycled. Mandate a deposit system with sufficient cost that people want to return the product to get the deposit back. In Denmark there is a 92% return rate of all beverage containers having a deposit despite the fairly small deposit on each bottle (from DKK 1.00 to DKK 3.00, US$0.15 to US$0.44, €0.13 to €0.40, £0.11 to £0.33).
There are numerous obstacles to a deposit system from getting buyers on board to the cooperation of the producers of the goods, where the latter could be difficult as it would impact their bottom line.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday April 21 2022, @11:22AM (2 children)
Whoever collected the deposit has to provide the refund?
It's easy to buy a six pack of beer, but I usually donate the empties to whoever collects enough empties to justify going through the extra effort to take them to whatever that's refunding them.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 4, Informative) by looorg on Thursday April 21 2022, @12:57PM
I'm not entirely sure about how the danish system works but I figure it's somewhat close or related to the one in Sweden. Yes basically you pay a fee when you buy the item and when you return the thing to be recycled (soda/beer metal cans or PET plastic in this case) but also larger items such as Cars and large batteries (usually car or vehicle related -- you get nothing for the small once in your phone/flashlight or whatever).
It's not a large amount but it's not insignificant either, it just have to be something so it's more valuable then to toss it. A car is about 3000 SEK ($320), a can (metal or PET) are usually about 1-2 SEK ($0,1-$0,2).
Since the fee is added when you buy the items you can't just import a gazillion bottles from some other country and then collect recycling fees here. The machines scan the barcode on bottles to see if it's an OK bottle or not, if not you get nothing. You could photocopy lots of legit barcodes and glue them to the "fake" bottles but that would be a crime if you get caught (they have tried, tried and failed etc). I doubt it's a high value crime so to speak. Not sure about the cars and such but I doubt they have the same system, they probably just pay up -- that said it's probably not good value for import and trade.
Yes, sort of. The machine you feed the bottles into give you a receipt (if you don't push the big button to give it to charity) that you scan or hand over at the cashier and you get the amount back or deducted from your purchase. I think they sort of phased out that you get cash for them anymore. At least at the large grocery stores etc.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday April 21 2022, @01:31PM
I suspect most systems use the government as an intermediary to make things flow more smoothly: Store A (or manufacturer) collects deposits on the bottles they sell and passes them to the govt. Store B (or recycling center) refunds the deposit and then bills the govt.
Presumably a store that both collects and pays deposits would only actually pay/bill the govt. for the net difference between the two.
(Score: 1) by jurov on Friday April 22 2022, @09:25AM
But batteries are different thing from beverages. They often cross borders. They are mounted in various electronics. They last months to years. Retail can limit the kinds of returned bottles/cans to the ones they sell to have somewhat predictable supply. This is usual practice in the EU and it proved not so onerous to customers. With batteries this isn't practical without careful planning, you either risk being flooded by junk, or it would be inconvenient for real customers to return them.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @11:56AM (3 children)
In capitalistic consumer driven markets, every single business along the chain of production is following the same mantra, "get the most for the least amount of energy".
Ergo, soda companies will not make a bottle which can safely be disposed of in nature due to cost.
Cheaper and thus more convenient to offload the responsibility to the end consumer who will also decide, most likely, to offload the responsibility to the environment.
Now here we are with batteries.
They can put robots on other planets, peer back behind the curtains of time searching for intelligent life, yet utterly fail to think ahead and tackle the issue with intelligent planning. For example, design the battery to be recyclable???
And so the cycle is compete, back to convenience.
Cheaper to pass the responsibility to some poor nation with sad environmental laws while declaring victory for a net zero by some fictional future magic time spell.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Immerman on Thursday April 21 2022, @01:54PM (2 children)
Money - not energy. Energy is just another resource whose current price gets balanced in the profit-maximizing equation.
But otherwise yep, and pretty much everything from slavery to dumping toxic waste in the drinking water can be traced to that mantra, which strictly speaking isn't limited to capitalism, but more generally to any market economy. Though capitalism really doubles down on it.
Which is why it's so often necessary for governments to step in with regulations, taxes/credits, deposit schemes, etc. Capitalism is really only good at maximizing profit for the capitalist class at the top. For it to deliver on any other goal you have to change the rules of the game.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 22 2022, @10:39AM (1 child)
" for governments to step in", you need to have a system which does not allow corporations to hijack the process of protections.
The corporations tell the government what laws they need to succeed with as "convenience" to maximize profits.
So in our current system, voting to try to change that is like fucking for virginity.
The government is the corporation and will keep the gravy train running damn the environment or morality.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday April 22 2022, @01:06PM
That certainly helps - but is not essential. Generally speaking, *any* system can be hijacked eventually - the question is how much good you can do beforehand, and if you're continuing the offensive even after you win.
Far too many people seem to think that getting the regulation passed is the end goal rather than just one victory in an ongoing battle.
Very much along the same lines as "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @01:01PM (7 children)
The advantage of lithium based batteries over lead is primarily its reduced weight and smaller sizes, while 17000$ vs 2425$ seems like a big difference. The actual difference to make the battery is probably not based on a 1:1 weight cost comparison.
An additional factor is the higher variation in form factor for lithium batteries, and that they are not as easily serviced (e.g. phones that no longer allow switching batteries by the user).
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday April 21 2022, @04:42PM (4 children)
And even if batteries in phones or laptops are replaceable, they may no longer be available when they finally need replacing.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday April 22 2022, @12:03AM (3 children)
I agree, in general. I know a couple of people who have external battery packs for their phones, and also for laptop.
It shouldn't be too difficult to rebuild a laptop pack, or even find an available battery that is close enough in size to replace an internal (non-removable pack).
But yeah, it'd be nice if they used standard size cells and you just replace them.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Friday April 22 2022, @03:31AM (2 children)
I used to have an old (386 era) laptop with a battery rebuilt by some previous owner -- just a bunch of standard NiCad cells soldered in as replacements. Worked fine. Since you can buy Lithium cells, presumably newer units could be similarly rebuilt?
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Friday April 22 2022, @05:27AM (1 child)
Sure, why not? Now Li-ion cells need voltage, current, and temperature protection, so the packs have circuitry in them, and temp. sensors on each cell (or should have!) so a rebuild would need to preserve all of that.
I've replaced many NiCad & NiMH cells, and sometimes scavenged the good ones from a pack. The problem with battery packs: the good cells will last longer than the bad ones, and at some point, reverse-charge the weaker ones. That kills them even faster, so it's a net runaway process (not the 1956 kind! :) But often the good cells have a lot of life left.
The model plane / car / boat / helicopter / drone / etc. world typically uses Li-polymer batteries, which seem more robust and often are run without much, if any, protection. But they're less energy dense, so it's a tradeoff.
https://blog.ravpower.com/2017/06/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-polymer-batteries/ [ravpower.com]
https://www.cashify.in/difference-between-lithium-ion-and-lithium-polymer-batteries [cashify.in]
If you need max energy, you want Li-ion. But if you're more concerned about safety, and/or unsure about the battery mgt. circuits, Li-polymer might be a better choice.
Maybe you know this: Musk designed the Tesla using standard laptop cells. Not sure the number, and it varies by model, but some are more than 6,000 cells in the pack.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Friday April 22 2022, @06:05AM
I follow a YTer who does teardowns of failed engines, and one day he showed how to test for failed cells in an EV battery pack -- individually replaceable in the one he was working on. Just one bad cell was enough to have some negative effect.
Hadn't heard about the early Tesla, but makes sense -- readily available and no need to reinvent the wheel.
Didn't know about the different types, thanks.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @06:15PM (1 child)
Even when size and weight aren't factors (like grid scale storage) lithium batteries are overwhelmingly preferred due to their high current, high efficiency, and minimal maintenance requirements. Lead-acid proponents never seem to want to admit just how much energy they waste electrolyzing water that then needs to be replaced.
(Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Friday April 22 2022, @12:05AM
You make good points, however most lead-acid batteries now have a catalyst in the top that recombines the H and O back into water.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by EvilSS on Thursday April 21 2022, @01:02PM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 21 2022, @01:19PM (1 child)
Develop a process requiring fewer steps which can safely release the toxins into the atmosphere.
(with apologies to Futurama)
The government is here to save the day! Government regulation to the rescue!
There are several ways to screw things up:
<no-sarcasm>
</no-sarcasm>
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Thursday April 21 2022, @02:15PM
Yep, government tends to F things up - it's hard enough figuring out what sort of (dis-)incentive structure can best deliver the desired results - add a bunch of politicians more interested in appeasing their lobbyists than governing well, and it gets even worse.
However, unrestrained capitalism is even worse, encouraging any profitable activity regardless of the ethical implications, from slavery to dumping toxic waste in the drinking water. Some level of government interference is necessary to introduce priorities other than maximum profit at any cost.
Where recycling is concerned deposits have a pretty good track record. Have either manufacturers or merchants collect $x/kg of materials you want to recycle in the product, to be paid to recycling centers to subsidize their extraction of those materials at a competitive price.
Of course the materials themselves are only half the problem - the other half is manufacturers building things in ways that make recycling far more difficult.
Personally I'd like to see products officially scored on the difficulty of recycling (and repairing - a.k.a. the most efficient form of recycling), and then multiply the deposit by that score. You want to sell food packaged in a paper/metal/plastic laminate that's impossible to recycle, go right ahead - but it'll add a $1.75 to the deposit, making your competitors wax-paper wrapped product look much better in comparison. Want to sell a plastic tricycle loaded with dies and property-enhancers that make it all but impossible to recycle? Expect to add an extra $20 to the price tag. We could yet bring back long-lasting easy to recycle steel toys.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @11:06PM
That's because nobody has been sufficiently motivated to come up with a better process for recycling lithium-ion batteries. Because right now we can afford to be wasteful.
Historically humanity has proven very capable of solving difficult challenges when sufficiently motivated. It just sucks that we also have a tendency to escalate those problems to the point that we must become sufficiently motivated.
I'm more than half convinced that we could solve a lot of our energy and potable water concerns with small nuclear power plants running off of sea water (it's powered and hydrated nuclear subs for decades). But right now that's not the biggest problem facing the deciders so we'll keep heating that potato.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday April 21 2022, @05:26PM
How about everything you buy has the cost to dispose of or recycle that item already included in the purchase price?
I'm not suggesting how such a program should be mismanaged or disorganized.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2022, @07:32PM (1 child)
if lithium where a heavy metal and poisoneious, it would be "recycled".
also, devide and conqueor, so no lithium standard. energy storage is only allowed if it requires new waste (fossile fuel for mining). if batteries would start mining batteries they would get banned and factories run into the ground faster then you can say " status quoe".
a "tab" a robot can rip like any plastic package has, could make the "roll" in lithium batteries much easier to recycle but ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 22 2022, @12:49AM
There is a lithium battery recycling plant near here, for smaller batteries like those used in implantable medical devices. If you go by when they are running, it's noisy outside the building...because they use a hammer mill to smash them to bits, and then sort out the different materials.
I know they are there because they made the news after a major fire, some years back...