Google accused of 'creepy' speech policing:
Google has been criticised for an "inclusive language" feature that will recommend word substitutions for people writing in Google Docs.
The tool will offer guidance to people writing in a way that "may not be inclusive to all readers" in a similar manner to spelling and grammar check systems.
Although the suggestions are just suggestions - they aren't forced on writers and the tool may be turned off - critics have described it as "speech-policing" and "profoundly clumsy, creepy and wrong".
The new feature is officially called assistive writing and will be on by default for enterprise users, business customers who might want to nudge particular writing styles among their staff.
The language the system favours reflects decades of campaigning for gender-neutral terms ("crewed" instead of "manned") and against phrases that reflect racial prejudice ("deny list" instead of "blacklist"), as well as more modern concerns about the impact of our vocabulary on how we identify people.
Also reported at:
- The Telegraph [May be paywalled in your locality]
- TechRadar
- Metro.co.uk
- WSJ
- Vice
- NY Post
- The Register
(Score: 2, Troll) by GlennC on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:01PM (7 children)
<sarcasm> I can't wait to see the rest of the conversation! </sarcasm>
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:03PM (6 children)
Tabloids like the NY Post do not follow proper journalistic practices and should not be used as a source.
I checked the TechRadar and The Register links and neither one mentions the term "blacklist" or anything like that, just the gender neutral terms that are actually proper English.
So if the only source for the "they're coming for our blacklists" is the NY Post I would take it's inclusions with a HUGE grain of salt.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:43PM (5 children)
Would you prefer they be blacklisted?
(Score: 4, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:57PM (4 children)
Apparently the Google Speech Police were not able to prohibit you from typing the word "blacklist."
Boy, it almost seems like some folks might be exaggerating this situation!
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @05:55PM (3 children)
Oh noes those DEMOCRATS are comin' fer me!
Before y'all get so high and mighty could someone please verify that "blacklist" is actually autocorrected by this thing?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:10PM (2 children)
Even if they "paused" it [dailywire.com] TFA has examples.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:19PM (1 child)
I clicked your link even though it is also a tabloid and it contains zero references to the term "blacklist."
I am not going to read your propaganda but I did make a good faith effort to verify it's contents and they do not support your claim.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:30PM
What claim? The following is from the Sky News report.
The DW article contains examples, including a link to a Vice article which also makes the point about "blackboard/whiteboard" being typical examples of "inclusive language". None of these articles has claimed Google Docs was making substitutions for these words. The only claim Google were making suggestions for these words appears to be yours. You may wish to work on basic reading comprehension if the tabloids you deride are too advanced.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:19PM (22 children)
This is what the great minds at Google have come up with? An auto-correct for wrongthink? Something tells me this is going to wind up becoming a "Ballmer Throws Chairs" moment.
Look, great alternatives exist in the LibreOffice suite. If those go full retard, we can always fork the code and route around the damage.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:45PM (17 children)
It is handy if you work at a place that is really pushing all that. Why chance get reprimanded at work for some word in a document. Google can help fix your stuff before you get sent to HR and have to take another 30 hrs of training in microaggressions.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:58PM (16 children)
I do love how triggered certain people get by being asked to act professionally at work!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:17PM (3 children)
Who are you, the Chairman of the Board?
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:21PM (2 children)
If I own the shop I set the rules. Apparently conservatives don't agree with that principle anymore.
(Score: 1, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:25PM
WAAAH!!!! How dare they judge us on our actions and not on our words!
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:42PM
Twitter staff better hop to implementing the owner's changes! No crying, now.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @05:31PM (8 children)
I love how triggered some people get if you don't correctly guess which of 27 "genders" they are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:25PM (7 children)
In my many decades as a US adult I have literally never seen anyone get uoset like this. You must be one egregious asshole if that is a real issue for you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:10PM
Not an issue for me at all. I just laugh at confused people!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:33PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0s2e63FIj8 [youtube.com]
Sir Karen
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:10PM
Ah yes, you have never witnessed it so the other person must automatically be a terrible person for his or her transgression despite the absence of malicious intent. [knowyourmeme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:22PM (2 children)
Ooh internet videos and memes! If we're going to take rare events as the general case then I'll reserve my worry for the flag waving Nazis in every Republican event, which means Republicans are the 4th Reich!
Or, you know, you dumbasses could just turn the feature off. Sadly there is no morally valid way to shut up you Nazis, what with our belief in freedom for all. Sad that we have to defend conservatives as well, but that is the price of freedom. Personally I wouldn't mind defending them if they would stop attacking everyone else. Republicans, the Russians of the West!
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @10:08PM (1 child)
>> I'll reserve my worry for the flag waving Nazis in every Republican event
Right on- you're not the only one worried about Nazis.
Fuck those Nazis.
I remember in 2020 they burned shit, blocked roads, even stormed over to people eating outside at restaurants and crowded around their tables screaming until they raised their fists in a Nazi salute, the list goes on.
Fuck those Nazis.
Every time I turn around some Nazi is busting my balls telling me I'm micro-agressing. Every time I disagree with what they're saying, they throw some vile label at me.
Fuck those Nazis.
Intimidating people flying American flags outside their homes during their damned Nazi marches through subdivisions outside of Portland- Screaming at them through bullhorns that they'd be back later that night to take care of that flag- all kinds of shit.
Fuck those Nazis.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @05:46AM
I agree! Fuck those Nazis!
Message from the Admins of SN, about my Fucking of Nazis:
Evidently, the admin of SoylentNews are pro-Nazi, and anti-aristarchus!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @12:29PM
Stack Exchange has fired people over it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:02PM (2 children)
Agreed.
Apparently requiring them to not talk about sexual-related topics to a captive audience of prepubscent children at school in the K-3 age range, without parental consent or oversight, is enough to make those perverts completely lose their shit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:55PM (1 child)
But, but... That's DIFFERENT! By not letting us talk about transgenderism, etc. to 5-8 year-olds without parental consent, you're an over-reacting, panicky, homophobic, transphobic, fascist-lover, Bruh. It's our JOB! If you don't like it, start your own school!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @11:30PM
Homophobic: no
Fascist-lover: probably, but not necessarily. I don't know of any fascism that is trans-affirming. I could imagine one, but fascism, including the fascism of the Republican Party, relies on a strict social construction of gender to accomplish reproductive control of the populace. The other option is that you're conservative, like the Democratic Party's "sisterhood of the uterus."
Over-reacting, panicky, transphobic: absolutely
Lurking in there is your obvious cissexism.
Most children get to grow up as the gender they identify with, and the exceptions happen when some cissexist fascist or conservative comes along and forces a child to live as the other gender. You also seem to understand how damaging this form of abuse is that cissexist fascists and conservatives are responsible for.
So the real mystery here: Why do you want any children--at all--to be forced to live as the gender they don't identify with?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:53PM (3 children)
Auto correct was already auto correct for wrong think. Language changes, get used to it.
Or be an old man yelling at clouds.... Whatever floats yer boat!
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:15PM (2 children)
"Or be an old man yelling at clouds"
Welcome to your future kid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @10:22PM
"Kid".
Dude, Death Monkey is so fucking old he knows all about being an Old Man Yelling At Clouds. We call him "Omyac".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @03:10PM
"Or be an old man yelling at 'The Cloud'"
(Score: 5, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:23PM (9 children)
I remembered what this ham-fisted move reminded me of: "heaven-o." Back during W. Bush's occupation of the Whitehouse there was a silly set of evangelicals who were trying to amend common speech in a similar way. They insisted that everyone stop saying "hello" because the word contained "hell," and say "heaven-o" instead.
They were rightly mocked into a smoking crater.
Now I'm going to sit back and sip my African-American tea (goddamn you, Google Docs wrongthink auto-correct!!!)
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:05PM (8 children)
And I remember ham fisted coding styles that we all find annoying but are perfectly willing to follow in return for a paycheck....
Which one is the 'Freedom Fries' and which one is the proper indenting?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:42PM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:53PM
It's only turned on for enterprise users and your employer would be the one deciding to use it or to not use it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:10PM
Ha! And I remember clenched fist style codes for hams!
I never did get fast enough to qualify on Morse.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:38PM (3 children)
Yeah, "freedom fries" is a parcel with "heaven-o." It's all creepy and excessively Orwellian, just like Google's Woke filter.
How about everybody who wants to place prior restraint on everyone's speech fuck off & read the Bill of Rights over and over and over until they grok what "Freedom of Speech" means?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:00PM (1 child)
"Although the suggestions are just suggestions - they aren't forced on writers and the tool may be turned off"
You're just not too bright are you? I recall you repeatedly telling people they can fuck off around here, but for some reason Google must adhere to your personal ideals. Conservative hypocrites like you are the #1 force destroying US society. The liars behind the American Dream happy to let the oppressive status quo keep you on top. Well, until demographics change enough and scary movements like "don't be an asshole" and "educate yourself on reality" suddenly have you on the wrong side of decency.
Don't worry, we lefties believe in free speech, except maybe aristarchus but it is hard to tell when he is trolling and no sane people take such extremists seriously. Kinda like the Republican Nazi problem, sure there are very few literal Nazis, we hope one day you'll actually condemn them and kick them out of your protests. Maybe form a ring with all your backs to them, do an interview and lament how a Nazi decided to hang around you? Any genuine condemnation really. You see it all the time from liberals, Democrats step down when caught being naughty, Republicans step back behind the wagons....... really easy to tell who the bad people are if you pay attention to details.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @12:34PM
I think you replied to the wrong post. This appears to be directed at DeathMonkey a few posts up.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday April 29 2022, @12:50AM
Nobody's saying you can't use the exclusory wording - they're just making sure you're doing it on purpose.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @10:34PM
I'm old enough to remember when Freedom Fries were made with Olestra- Loved those things. An hour after enjoying those patriotic little treats, I'd be blow'en and go'en like shit through a goose.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by looorg on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:49PM (16 children)
This seems like the Google version of Clippy. I'm wondering who this is for. A quick read of the articles and their comments and it's hard to find someone that thinks that this is an awesome idea. Instead it's the usual well deserved ridicule and questions. It seems like yet another thing nobody wanted and nobody asked for but is now a standard feature, it can be turned off. But we know things that are opt out tends to stay on cause people don't really bother with it. If it had been opt in this would have been basically dead on arrival. I guess they are slowly going for changing peoples thinking and writing, in as noted a creepy way. After all if things are marked with a red line or whatnot in a document people tends to check their spelling and normally just go with what the machine suggests it should be instead.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:10PM (10 children)
"...it's hard to find someone that thinks that this is an awesome idea"
Have there been any good ideas in software design during the past decade? Mostly everything has been worse,useless, or change for change sake.
-emojiis
-emojiis in unicode.
-new emojiis touted as a top feature in every new OS version
-hamburger menu on desktop websites and desktop applications
-grey fonts on grey backgrounds
-uni-color icons
-wireframe icons
-uni-color wireframe icons
-Enabled button/UI elements are washed-out & grey, whereas when disabled they are vivid and stand out
-round corners, then square corners, then back to round corners again.
-unconfigureable and uncustomizeable UIs
-browsers removing the ability to disable autoplay videos
-Changing the YES/NO responses in dialog boxes to "Yes/Maybe later"
-What Mozilla did to Firefox.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:16PM (5 children)
On the plus side I bet this new Glippy will tell those damn kids to replace the emojis with actual words (and to get off Phoenix's lawn!)
(Score: 2) by looorg on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:20PM (3 children)
I guess that could be a potential upside. But then there is always that risk of them doing the complete opposite. Replace all words with a "proper" emoji. We could be neo-egyptians, the emojins could be like hieroglyphs.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:29PM
If spellcheck ever tries to make me ADD an emoji I am definitely joining the cloud castigation squad!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:41PM (1 child)
Yes but emojis are closer to Chinese characters than they are to a phonetic system like Egyptian hieroglyphs. Meanings are being communicated. Sounds are not.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:43PM
Heiroglyphs started off as a phono-semantic system, it was the Phoenicians that had the phonetic writing. Heck, it's right there in the name!
(I see Phoenix666 has gone full old-tard. Living where he does, probably doesn't even have a lawn.)
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:41PM
Emojis are too much work. Let's just drop in this clip [youtu.be] for everything the masses huddled in the safe spaces might say.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:52PM (3 children)
"browsers removing the ability to disable autoplay videos"
- you mean, the transition from flash which was trivial to block to native html elements which were much more difficult? Surely you aren't advocating FOR flash here? Its not so much that the browsers took it away as the technology changed so that it wasn't trivial.
"hamburger menu on desktop websites and desktop applications"
- its bad now to implement a UI element everyone has become familiar with?
"uni-color icons / wireframe icons"
- more easily scalable to different resolutions and dpi displays, less prone to color-blindness/perception issues, less likely to clash/conflict with color themes chosen by user
"unconfigureable and uncustomizeable UIs"
This one is a mixed bag. The disadvantages to power users of that trend are clear, but on the other side it also reduces dev maintenance costs & reduces bugs by being less complex, it reduces documentation/training costs, and it reduces support and help desk costs at the vendor and for internal teams) since and allows for easier shifting between devices.
And there has been plenty of good software design in the last decade, if you don't just cherry pick the things you don't like. Mobile app permissions and notification controls have gotten steadily better, windows 11 start menu is an improvement over previous windows start menus -- its still got some lag/glitch issues -- but the actual design is better, and the right click list of options on it has gone from useless to indispensable. Cortana and her talking out-of-box experience has gone away. I can barely remember the last time i saw a 'winmail.dat' attachment in email in thunderbird - but maybe I've gotten lucky? DNS over HTTPS in general is a good idea, despite the FUD and some of the deployment decisions.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @05:38PM (1 child)
You must one of the Gnome GUI designers. Only retards could ever think those design horrors are acceptable.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday April 28 2022, @11:53PM
What? I don't even use gnome, let alone design it. I don't have any idea what you are even talking about.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:28PM
Found the UI/UX """professional""".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:09PM (3 children)
> I'm wondering who this is for.
It is for people in corporate or university environments where their documents need to be as neutral and unoffensive as possible. I've witnessed huge shit-storms from using what people think is the wrong word (even though it is the valid term used in legal documents). In the times of twitter, it doesn't seem much thought is done on the intentions of the writer.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:42PM (2 children)
Fahrenheit 451, we are here!
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:44PM
Damn global warming ...
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:06PM
Oh look, someone who never read a book but memorized all the lame Faux Newz rhetoric! Am I surprised that a former Democrat turned Trump voting MAGA thinks an optional spell check type feature in a service specific to one company is literally 1984? Shit son, at least the GOP literally used Nazi symbols and frolicks regarly with white supremacists yet you still whine about being called Nazis.
It is almost like you have no integrity, just outrage culture and gaslighting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @10:42PM
>> This seems like the Google version of Clippy.
Waiting for a cute little graphic to pop up while I'm typing and say
"It looks like you might be a racist... would you prefer this be reported to the ADL or the SPLC?"
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @12:51PM (21 children)
"Special military operation" instead of "war".
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:18PM (18 children)
Just like how the US gov't called the Vietnam War a 'police action'.
Or how CNN & other extreme left MSM called 2020's violent burning & looting riots as "mostly peaceful protests"
Or how Canada's Turdeau called 2021's covid recession a "she-cession" and said it needed a "she-covery" because the recession impacted 1% more women than men? And who can forget his "It's not mankind,it's Peoplekind"?
Or how Chicago's and NYC mayors keep saying "Crime rates are down"
Or how the left calls Florida's "no sexual grooming of K-3 schoolchildren" bill the "don't say gay" bill.
Or how every Dem politician who screams "defund the police" spends $100K+ on private home security.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:00PM (1 child)
Considering the reaction of the right wing to the rumors that schools won't be teaching kids about straight people, I mean "grooming" them, seems they really were against the "gay" part the whole time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @05:11AM
Pointing out the truth of how the right has reacted to the enforcement of the law they themselves asked for is flame baiting. Getting exactly what they said they wanted and all of a sudden they don’t like it anymore. What else is there to say other than it must be because it doesn’t apply only to things they don’t like. Just say the quiet part out loud next time and you might actually get what you want.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:00PM
Ok Tinker Bell
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:13PM (4 children)
Crime rate in Chicago and New York ARE down. That you believe otherwise says more about you that the mayors of those respective cities.
(AC moving the goalposts to only count murder in 3.....2....1....)
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @05:22PM
That is why the coal roll in the 4WD F-450, easier to move the goal posts when they are in the back of a truck.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:45PM (2 children)
That you believe that crime rates in Chicago and New York are down says more about you than it does about reality. Those of us who are on the ground in those cities know better.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:31PM (1 child)
Weird attempt to flex. So you live in NY and Chicago? Despite repeatedly saying you moved upstate NY? Why are conservatives always so comfortable with making blatant lies? Are you really so angry that liberals are better educated and make you feel stupid? Because you chose stupidity, you could always engage reality, yet you chose to vote for Donald J. Motherfucking Trump! Such willingness to debase yourselves, are you really so brainwashed you're not even embarassed????
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday April 29 2022, @11:43PM
Long Island, not upstate NY. Those are entirely different places on the East Coast.
I am not a conservative, neither did I lie. After living in Brooklyn for 20 years, I have many friends and ties in the city. I'm there on a regular basis. Going in again to the Village in a couple days for a friend's birthday party. And I was in Chicago six months ago on the way to somewhere else--stopped by the old university and was astonished to see how much sketchier Hyde Park is now than it was 30 years ago. But that does give me a belly laugh for you to suppose that anyone can be better educated than somebody with a graduate degree from the University of Chicago. Really, in what universe do you live?
I am strangely fascinated how obsessed you are with my personal details. Would you say your cyberstalking is born of general mental illness or is it a creepy hobby?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:25PM (7 children)
I'm guessing it's because the bill in question makes absolutely no mention of "grooming" but does prohibit discussion.
HB 1557 - I would tell you to read it yourself but I know you won't. [flsenate.gov]
From the Bill:
Now explain to me how the government literally prohibiting discussion jives with your super serious devotion to Free Speech.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:14PM (6 children)
Just a simple matter of disallowing the indoctrination of young children without parental oversight or permission.
It is quite telling that proponents of the bill refuse to seek consent and instead forcefully insert their dogma onto children of inappropriate age.
Just as the extremists on the right not allowed to push their silly religion at public schools, neither are the extremists on the left allowed to push their sexual deviance.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:25PM (5 children)
Corrected that in my last post as "proponents" was obviously meant to be "opponents" as can be inferred by context.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:31PM
Uh oh reality leaked! Depressing how much work conservatives put into protecting the child marrying religious nutjob pedophiles. Tucker Carlson was adamant about a child marrying rapist providing and caring for the child, as opposed to a simple rapist that doesn't plan to abuse the child long term by forcing them to have their babies through repeated rapings. Don't even get me started on priests and youth pastors that prey on their congregation.
You should really do your homework, and all rape is bad mmkay?
(Score: 3, Informative) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:36PM (3 children)
No, you had it right the first time around.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:51PM (2 children)
Then do elaborate within the context of that specific Florida law under discussion.
... or were you just being snarky about a minor error that was swiftly corrected, because you lack any compelling counterarguments?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:27PM (1 child)
When you have a compelling argument better than "think of the children" nonsense you shouldn't expect a compelling counterargument. Until then there is no point in doing more than make fun of you for your clueless christian fascism.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:39PM
Your reading comprehension is deficient by jumping to the conclusion when the earlier post clearly states
The right wing christian nutjobs are just as bad. And contrariwise left wing perverts are no better when you try to do the same thing they are criticized for.
You've got nothing. So predictable.
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:50PM (1 child)
Sure looks like it's just like those things. Now imagine, if you can with your puny brain, what would happen if Google helpfully suggested any of those euphemisms for normal words? Some people might turn off that feature, or ignore it, but a bunch would go with it. It's a 1984-style way to control thought.
Moving on, I gather from your list of examples, that these are things you don't approve of. Does that imply that you similarly don't approve of Russia's use of the phrase "special military operation" since you compare that use to those examples?
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:28PM
Now imagine if the government in, say the state of Florida, made one of these for the gays who work at schools and threw you in jail for violating it!
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:23PM
Not new really. Von Clausewitz defined war as "diplomacy by other means".
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:51PM
Come now, hardly new. [thenation.com] The UN charter abolished war as a tool of international relations, so nations have to call it something else, like a "Police Action", or "Many Flags", or even O(peration) I(raqi) L(iberation), OIL!
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:14PM (2 children)
It looks like Alphabet DBA Google has failed to sufficiently support the drive towards WW3, which can only end in a nuclear MAD event.
Michigan feminism taught me this one huge lesson. You want to do the right thing. That's something bullies can exploit. The "social justice" crowd are a bunch of gaslighting liars. If they really supported social justice, they would support things like single payer healthcare that would do more intersectional good than any amount of word policing.
If Google hadn't done this, the headline would be "Google still lets trolls use racist and sexist language." And, as we see here, even when you cave and implement what the "social justice" bullies call for, it's never good enough. See above. It's not about social justice. It's about bullying.
Nope, nope, nope, this is all shit. The only way to achieve social justice is through working class struggle. All power to the rank-and-file committees!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @02:06AM (1 child)
Honestly,
If we really step back and look at shit... Identity politics is what's keeping the working class from unification. But don't tell anyone that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @02:42PM
I think I see your point. Sarcasm and meta-sarcasm received. I am going to enjoy it thoroughly when the nuclear bombs fall. I'll just keep popping in now and then to remind you that in 40±6 months, you're all going to get what you deserve.
(Score: 4, Funny) by SomeGuy on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:44PM (3 children)
You typed the word "computer" we think you mean "Glorious Android SmartPhone(R)(TM)"
You typed the word "iPhone" we think you mean "Buy even more Android SmartPhones(R)(TM)!"
You typed the word "software" we think you mean "download our FREE weather app/malware!"
You typed some other miscellaneous technical terms. We think you should say "cloud, cloud, cloud, cloudy cloud cloud and cloud because cloud."
You typed the word "bad" we think you mean "double plus ungood".
You typed the phrase "find better technology" we think you mean "sit on our dicks and swivel".
Wait, is this coming to Gurgle Crumb? That would prevent at least half of the posts to soylentnews from going through.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:55PM
You just described Clippy!
How is any of this NEWS?!??!?!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:32PM (1 child)
Gargle Cum
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:45PM
Sorry, the project to data mine your browsing history down the hall. This is the speelcheek team!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @01:57PM (2 children)
How are they going to earn a living if the panopticon autocorrects citizen's wrongthink?
(Score: 1, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:32PM (1 child)
"Panopticon" may not be inclusive of all readers in this context since the system is merely a spellcheck with different words and is not monitoring you in any way.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:19PM
Says you.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2, Redundant) by maxwell demon on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:49PM (31 children)
You can argue whether it is a good idea to use the word, but you cannot reasonably argue that it reflects racial prejudice. Its origins are centuries-old and completely unrelated to any racial issues, as evidenced by its etymology: [etymonline.com]
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @02:56PM
Hmmmm....pretty sure I know of at least one racially sensitive term that uses that base!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:05PM (15 children)
Yeah, and even if it was, it means something else entirely. Like "rule of thumb": I wonder how feminists missed that one, since the medieval rule in question is that you can't beat your wife with a rod thicker than an inch.
Same thing for "blacklist", "master controller" or "red tape": those expression quit having racial connotations decades ago, and those who use it don't necessarily long for the return of slavery or hate native American VHS video producers.
But... Don't tell that to the current crop of holier-than-thou PC snowflakes: they'll jump you at every opportunity - including apparently, as it happened to me last week, blasting you for referring to a man who identifies as a woman as "him" (and nevermind that he sported a beard and didn't wear a dress).
Well ya know, it's 2022 and I'm a gen-Xer. All that nonsense makes no sense to me but it's not my generation and I'm just here for the ride until I snuff it at this point I guess...
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:23PM (4 children)
Yeah, Wizards of the Coast also just published new guidelines [reddit.com] for Magic: the Gathering Grand Prixes (or whatever the heck they're calling them now..."MagicFests"? probably somewhat applies to Friday Night Magics at your local game store as well) where if you "intentionally misgender" your opponent they can kick you out of the event. (MtG has been on this big social justice bent the last few years, including banning cards that were "racially insensitive" and other stuff like that.) How one can empirically determine whether it was intentional, or you just keep forgetting because you're busy playing a complicated game, I don't know.
Deep in the Reddit thread somebody also claims [reddit.com] that just using "they/them" for everybody is "degendering" and as bad as misgendering. FFS
Because what I want in my escapist fantasy card game about wizards and dragons is to be slapped in the face with social justice concerns every time I sit down to play.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @07:42PM (3 children)
From how you describe their rule changes it sounds like getting slapped in the face is a purely optional choice by you. Thought experiment: if you were at a bar for trivia night and someone yells out a racial slur to a question would your night be ruined if the offender was kicked out? Is that too much social justice bslapping you in the face?
I keep hearing about rightwingers having social justice issues SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROAT AND SLAPPING THEM IN THE FACE yet I just never see or hear about these things in reality. Is it possible rightwingers are just too sensitive? Just a little over a decade ago rightwingers would have serious moral concerns about people swearing or a titty accidentally being shown on TV.
Find new friends to play with, or just get on board with the idea that bigotry is bad. There are plenty of things in life to worry about, being socially accepted for using slurs shouldn't be high on your list. So share some video of you personally getting railed for calling a transgender person the wrong pronoun or stfu. 10:1 you double down then cry about being treated poorly for treating someone else poorly #ClownAroundAndFindOut
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:12PM
I wouldn't describe myself as conservative in general. However, the amount of public obsession with 1% of the population seems disproportionate.
The whole point is that this is the official stance at GPs. And if it's the policy at GPs, I assume it's more or less the same at FNMs (WOTC has various conditions they want store owners to abide by, or they pull their "favored stores" status, which tends to cause the stores to shut down since they rely so much on MtG income).
Equating using the wrong pronoun with racial slurs is rather disingenuous. That was largely my point. Especially when you can't even be sure they're doing it on purpose?
Have I indicated that I think it isn't? The problem is that so many people have an extremely low bar for what constitutes "bigotry" these days. Which you're sort of proving for me yourself...
They just published these guidelines for Magic this week, and it's not Friday yet. In any case, they closed down the store I played at due to Covid and I haven't started going anywhere else because the game is something of a shambles lately mechanically, in addition to the company's social justice leanings.*
Of the two of us, you seem to be the one who is a lot more invested in and angry about this issue. I'll give you a little credit for not just straight-up calling me a bigot/racist/Nazi/x-phobe, at least.
--
*Oh yeah, and the official MtG subreddit is a real liberal wank-tank too where the mods like to permaban you without appeal if you dissent from the party line about any of the social scandals that pop up every few weeks. At least they finally fired the most egregious mod a week or two back, so it might improve a little.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:25PM (1 child)
Yeah, okay, I can relate to you my entire experience IRL with trans people in one post. Why not?
--
Back in college, as a Computer Science major, there was a pre-op (I assume...they certainly looked and dressed male at the time) male-to-female trans person whose name I forget. She was a rather annoying person, not that that had anything to do with being trans. Just one of those people who is too loud and generally distracting.
A lot of us Comp Sci majors would hang out in a certain computer lab, whether we were doing homework or not, chatting and whatnot. I was aware that this person was trans, but since I seldom had need to interact with or talk about her, on the rare occasions I did, I would usually forget about her pronouns. Which people would correct me on, of course.
This was back circa 2010, so I can only imagine how much trouble I would be in over it if I did the same thing today. I look around the room and see two dozen people, the other 23 of them used standard pronouns as far as I know, so I inevitably forgot that there was this one specific person who desired different treatment. With this one exception, it has always been a reliable practice for me to use the pronouns that correspond with what somebody looks like when I look at them.
--
I'm sure that context will somehow prove that I'm a horrible, hateful bigot, but oh well.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @04:15PM
Got it, sounds like a totally normal interaction devoid of:
"Because what I want in my escapist fantasy card game about wizards and dragons is to be slapped in the face with social justice concerns every time I sit down to play."
So you weren't ostracized, hounded, or otherwise persecuted. People corrected you, oh the humanity!
Nazi and such gets thrown around a lot because giving bigotry a platform of validity leads to Nazi behavior. We are seeing it right now in the US. Racist Trump gets elected with fans happy he "tells it like it is" and magically hate crimes started rising. Your fake hysteria, not even backed by personal experience beyond people correcting your word usage, is what allows bigots to think their bigotry isn't actually the problem and that they are the rEeL victims. To be fair, no one should lose their shit over the wrong pronoun unless it was done maliciously. According to your own real experience it is rare to the point of not worrying about, didn't even happen to you!
I think a lot of conservative types have a very unrealistic fear of social and physical violence they might suffer simply for using the wrong gendered pronoun. Of course many more conservatives are ignorant and stick to ONLY TWO GENDERS because it makes them uncomfortable and challenges their traditional common sense. The 2nd group are assholes, and they work hard to keep the moderate conservatives literally afraid for their lives. Fox saying ANTIFA, BLM, and MS13 are attacking suburbs and YOU'RE NEXT is the style of bullshit making conservatives support very dangerous fascists.
This is no longer hyperbole, Trump opened the door and Abbot and DeSatanist are pushing people through. Book banning, thought crimes (don't say gay now!) and controlling women's bodies. Super not fascist /sarcasm
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:27PM (8 children)
And do you still call people "Fag?" Or, have you concluded that the word no longer means a bundle of sticks?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:47PM (6 children)
Well we've concluded that fascists are faggots. The next step is faggots are fascists. Then we proceed to male homosexuality is fascism and misogyny.
Men's sexuality must be controlled by the state. Men are sexually mutilated at birth, which is a powerful signal that a man's reproductive organs do not belong to him. Men are brutalized as children in order to prepare them to be soldiers. Men who do not have sex with the right people must be sexually harassed with derogatory terms like "incel." Men are told over and over again that violence against them by people with menstrual cycles is not violence, that rejecting sexual violence and sexual harassment from people with menstrual cycles is a sign they're an "incel" and probably a faggot.
tl;dr just watch for the response to this comment calling me an "incel"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:15PM (4 children)
Well you make good points and alllllmost without the incel markers. You could just say violence against men, it isn't too particular to violence from women. Your entire first paragraph has you looking more like a Nazi loving christo-fascist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:04PM (2 children)
lel. I guess I hit too close to the mark.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:15PM
It is sad that you think calling someone a homosexual is a win for you, but that is always how it is with insecure bigots. Statistically it is very likely you have homo-erotic fantasies you were taught are "wrong" thus leading to your current psychosis of bigotry and hate. Love thyself, as long as you're not hurting others your fantasies are probably fine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @09:33PM
That gave me a chuckle. Thanks kurenai, in sincerity with neither sarcasm nor malice.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday April 29 2022, @11:35PM
As a point of reference, the correct term is "antichrist [merriam-webster.com]."
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @05:58AM
You may be going there, but the rest of us recognize the fallacy of reverse generalization. As (Lord) Bertie Russell said:
I guess we will need to parse this for you, since you fit into at least one of those categories?
Just look at the pink triangles in the Nazi death camps, and you will understand the difference.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:41PM
I call you DamageControlMonkey. It doesn't roll off the tongue, but neither do the anuses you're licking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @03:38PM
They didn't miss it. That whole origin story for the phrase is pure fiction [debunker.com].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @04:23PM (4 children)
Look.
You are right about etymology. But you are WRONG about usage.
I was psychologically abused by peers as a youth. Long story. Short version, I promise you it's how the word is used, and not what the etymology is. I was named (not literally branded, but socially) some things which had no history of being used derogatorily. But I didn't give a shit because the usage was very, very clear.
Now! When you say
you're right! But it turns out that it doesn't matter when the malice began to be attributed to the term; it matters only that communication is understood as intending malice. Blacklisting/whitelisting is so easily mis-understood as embedding malice that it is not the very worst thing to swap for other terms which are just as awkward (allowlist and whitelist, neither of these really has an air of poetry).
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday April 27 2022, @05:41PM (2 children)
If I invent the word "glorpblorg" right now and then proceed to bash you over the head with it calling you a dirty glorpblorg for the next thirty years it's gonna become a "bad" word even though the etymology of the word is literally non-existent
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @12:07AM (1 child)
I would not let my daughter date a glorpblorg, that's for sure.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @04:14AM
since glorpblorg is a male descriptor, do we assume your daughter prefers female blorg ?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @08:56PM
No, those words are not easily misunderstood. They are just conveniently being used as weapons to show who has the power and who doesn't. If I force you to do what I say no matter how incorrect or ridiculous, then I have established that I am superior to you in the power I wield. It's a simple show of force with you submitting to it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by vux984 on Wednesday April 27 2022, @06:10PM (6 children)
Citing the etymology misses the point. It doesn't really matter what the word used to mean, or what it's connotations used to be, or what its origins are. All that matters is what it means today, and what connotations it has picked up and carries right now, regardless of whether they make any real logical sense or not. What matters is not even solely how you mean it in context although that is important, but also important is how your audience will interpret it, and even de-contextualize or re-contextualize it.
As we used to say in high school french class... "Je n'ai pas de phoques pour vous donner."
"Niggardly" is a classic example. It has no connection to the slur, and doesn't even spring from the same roots. The only thing running against it is the coincidence of a phonetic similarity -- and even that is enough to cause to pick up controversy. Because to use it is to risk being misheard or misunderstood, and worse, to INSIST on using it, and to INSIST on correcting people and telling them that its fine to use just raises the specter that you perhaps you secretly WANT to be misheard and misunderstood and are just using it as a proxy or as coded language.
That's not to say that one can't use the word niggardly today, but it carries this baggage now so if you choose to use it, then you are carrying that into the conversation with your audience -- and it's not unreasonable to raise the question: why exactly did you choose to do that?
Likewise, why deliberately choose to use "blacklist" - knowing that you are stepping into the mud, and signaling that you are siding with rascists and bigots (whether you agree with them or not).
You can't take the high ground, and declare the word is "unstained". You're tilting at windmills. That's simply not how human communication with language works.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @11:23PM
If a critic wants to stoop to allegations of guilt by association as a form of guilt tripping, [choosingtherapy.com] then by adherence to their own fallacious reasoning they are associating themselves with abusers. You don't want to side with abusers do you?
Unless we mean offense then our accuser has already taken the low road.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @12:17AM (1 child)
That's funny. When I deliberately choose to use "blacklist" I mean blacklist. If some dummies think I'm "stepping into the mud, and signaling that you are siding with rascists and bigots...", then they are the ones with problems, not me. It doesn't bother me because I just blacklist them!
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday April 28 2022, @01:31AM
I sincerely believe you. Blacklist away, but the dummies are legion and you're just limiting your own social acceptance, which is fine if you've made it to where you are an old man yelling at the kids to get off your lawn and complaining about the orientals.
Go nuts, if that's you you got nothing to lose, and nothing they can take from you.
But if you aren't there yet, and you need that job or that promotion or that opportunity... well you may have just gotten on their deny-list; and for what? To die on the hill that is your right to say blacklist? Was it really worth it?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @03:24AM (1 child)
Because that's the terminology. If I want to search for blacklists, I'll get a million results if I use the correct term, "blacklist", but only a dozen or so of unrelated results about how racist and evil I am if I use whatever newspeak tyrants say I must use this week.
That's what YOU are doing. It's a fucking windmill, I see it, everyone else sees it but you. To you that windmill is some evil racist, but that's only in your mind. And what a crazy mind it is, it manages to call others racist because they don't see how something must be evil since it's black lol.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday April 28 2022, @06:06PM
Ok. When things get renamed; there's going to be a lag time where lots of documentation and references still use the previous name, and its useful to know that and to use it for that purpose. That doesn't make the previous name "more correct", it's just how time works.
I don't think anything of the sort. I don't actually think its the least bit racist. I think its a pretty stupid thing for pretty stupid people to make a big deal about and to want to change. But you know what I think is even more stupid than wanting to rename blacklist? Fighting with them to keep using the word 'blacklist'. Deny-list is perfectly fine, so why would i expend my energy getting into a fight with people who will never be persuaded anyway, in defense of a word I couldn't care less about in the first place.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @05:33AM
Two of the best examples of the split that can form between denotation and connotation are “irregardless” and “literally.” Both of their most common uses today are 180° opposed to their supposed definition. The textbook at dictionary may say one thing but their usage says another. Language evolves and people can fight it all they want but they shouldn’t be surprised if they also go the way of the dinosaurs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 27 2022, @10:26PM (1 child)
"You typed 'black' - that should be 'African-American'."
FTFY := Owing to sale of surplus inventory the budget for Q3 is now in the African-American.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28 2022, @12:12AM
Investors will be happy that there's no more Native American ink.