from the cost-plus-contracting-the-spice-must-flow dept.
Piece Falls Off Boeing Starliner as It Trundles Toward Launchpad
That probably wasn't supposed to happen.
Oops!
After years of setbacks, Boeing is finally rolling out its Starliner spacecraft to the launchpad today for its second attempt to rendezvous with the International Space Station.
Doing no favors for the spacecraft's reputation for jankiness, it ran into yet another mishap along the way. While strapped to the back of a large truck, a piece of the capsule's window appeared to pop off, tumbling down to the asphalt, as spotted in footage shared by CBS space news reporter William Harwood.
[....] The procession briefly stopped to check for damage before resuming its journey to Space Launch Complex 41 in Cape Canaveral, Florida.
Boeing later confirmed to Harwood that it was a protective window cover that had fallen off the capsule.
All told, it doesn't sound like a terribly serious issue, but the optics are terrible considering what Boeing has been through with the development of Starliner, its competitor to SpaceX's Crew Dragon capsule.
Hey, first Starliner spacefright crew... don't worry. I'm sure the rest of the Starliner is made to the high standards that we've come to expect from Boeing.
(Score: 4, Funny) by MostCynical on Saturday May 07 2022, @10:30PM
quick - check the QA logs - did anything similar fall off during any of the testing? If so. this is expected behaviour. Carry on.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday May 07 2022, @10:46PM (4 children)
There's an old Space Shuttle legend that circulates in quality systems circles as a cautionary tale against relying on signatures as proof of, well, anything. Seems that when the Shuttle is being serviced on its wheels, there's a large I beam that's placed in the cargo bay to assist in processing. The I beam is held in place by gravity. When it's time to tilt the Shuttle up for attachment to the main tank, they were _supposed_ to remove the I beam first before rotating the vehicle. The potential for expensive damage in the event of a failure to remove said I beam was a well known, well thought out eventuality. To prevent such a thing from ever occurring, 50 (it has been told to me as, explicitly: fifty, I still wonder if that was a creative license on 15, but either way) signatures were required from 50 separate people on various procedural checklists, each assuring that they personally know for certain that the I beam has been removed in preparation for rotation. So, of course, one day all the procedures were processed, all the signatures were verified as present, along with about a million other things, and the Shuttle was rotated, with the I beam in the cargo bay (behind closed cargo bay doors, of course). The predicted expensive damage ensued and weeks of repairs were required, delaying the next launch, etc. etc.
Procedures and signatures alone do not ensure everything that needs to happen, happens. There is a bit of "quality culture" required. Lower level workers need to be confident that they will not be punished for raising relevant issues that might interfere with "high priority" schedule deadlines. Managers need to listen when these issues are raised and handle them appropriately. Sometimes (many times) the fastest way to deliver a working product is to go slow.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 5, Insightful) by mhajicek on Sunday May 08 2022, @02:46AM
The more people who sign, the less responsibility each person bears, so they're more likely to sign without verifying. I've seen that on revision approvals.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Sunday May 08 2022, @08:21AM
Anyone who ever was in that position can tell you that if more than one person is responsible for something, nobody feels responsible for it. 50 people? That's ensuring nobody will verify whether that I-beam was removed because, hell, just sign it, SOMEONE will certainly have checked.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by turgid on Sunday May 08 2022, @08:27AM (1 child)
In my nuclear power days, on one of the courses about electrical and mechanical safety, the instructor told us a story about when he was a young trainee. He had to prepare some safety documents (think kind that are kept in locked cabinets and have keys attached for access to the plant) for working on the 132kV bus bars, which obviously had to be isolated. He presented the document to the old timer who was to be doing the work, who said, "Are you sure these are correct?" "Yes," he replied. "Well, touch them, the!" He went back to his desk and went through everything again from the start...
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @09:08PM
The high quality excellence is what we should be aiming for as a society, but due to perverse profit incentives we instead polluted our own home and intentionally create garbage so we can sell more. We need to restructure politics so the pursuit of money doesn't lead us into destruction.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 07 2022, @11:54PM (22 children)
Boeing just moved their headquarters from Chicago to Arlington, a DC suburb. It's a major signalling that they are focusing on defense contracts more than the civilian aircraft business.
Maybe they realized they can't compete with the socialist Airbus consortium, so they are leaning on Uncle Sam's defense budget - can't beat'em, join'em.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @12:29AM (17 children)
"flamebait?"
Give me a clue.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @12:46AM
You got downmodded by one of the dumbest users.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @01:04AM (4 children)
Not flamebait, it's some calling it as he sees it.
And I even agree with him.
I worked in this industry 20 years ago.
When we were bought out by a MBA-centric organization, common sense went out the door. Replaced by very highly paid mediocrity.
They even forcibly retired the last of us who knew what made our stuff work. The highly paid ones needed to totally purge the organization of any technical skill so as to guarantee a continued position within the organization without having to have any more technical arguments that could only be resolved by a managerial evaluation of insubordination.
For the time being I was able to fix the bad moderation.
I can only be sad I wasn't able to fix the company, and had to watch it die in a pool of mediocrity, while the ones responsible for it's death fly around in private jets, fine dinners, entertained, with enough financial oomph to train their kids to do the same.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday May 08 2022, @02:10AM (2 children)
I have to wonder if that was the plan all along: to get rid of the knowledge and wisdom, under the guise of "we saved lots of money by laying off expensive unnecessary (older) workers, and by hiring new cheap talent who will have more ideas and energy. Oops."
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @06:51AM (1 child)
TL:DR. Rant from ex aerospace engineer.
No useful information here, just the wailings of someone who tried but just couldn't do certain things.
As far as younger and older people in the workplace:
We have to have both. The older ones have done things. The younger ones have the time to see what we did and make it better.
Kinda like trying to get a rocket into orbit. The old one will run out of fuel, but it got it's payload just that much higher.
When I first joined the company, the younger ones ( I was younger once long time ago ) worked alongside the older ones and the older ones would mentor us. At the time it seemed they just had us doing busywork. But we learned what made our products work, and where all those "gee, if I could only get a do-over " were.
And, during my stay there, the older ones taught me dedication. Those guys often retired from the company lying down, feet first, doing to the end, exactly what they most liked to do. I had already made my mind up I was going to do the same.
But when the company sold out from an engineering based concern to a financial/business concern, it was no longer an artisan's haven.
Ironic thing...these guys in management claimed to have all sorts of people and communication skill. Yet I could not hold any technical discourse with one. I could not detect any abstractive skill in them.
They seemed more like a computer program...procedures - step by step - with no way to identify and adjust to a changing environment. But they were really good at businesstalk. How to make something sound good without committing to anything. How to play mind games so one will make incorrect assumptions.
The operative word with them is "when".
And they love businesstalk.
I'll give you an example. Sell bottles of pills made from grass clippings for $30.
Ok, tell the customer these will make you lose weight and you did a double blind
clinical study, by using a control group and a group who takes my pill.
Notice what I did here. Used science and tech lingo words to sway you into placing credibility to my businesstalk .
Then I go on to say that neither group was asked to change their diet or exercise.
Oooh, see what I did? I implied you don't have to do anything! Just buy my pills!
Now, I set the hook.
I claim that the people who took my pill lost 4 times more weight!
Here's where the engineers like me have the hissyfit.
The engineer will carry on saying "but the control group did not change anything. They did not lose any weight! Four times zero is still zero ".
They see the marketdroid as a lying head with a tongue rattling around in it.
However the gullible public who will still trust the marketer are still open for further businesstalk about testimonials that never state that my pills had anything to do with the weight loss...my pills were just present.
And they spend yet more money, often times lots of it if they successfully convince the purchase of auto refill.
I point this out that I am an engineer, stuff like this only convinced me the marketer was trying to make a fool of me. At my expense. Exactly my my impression of the business types that overran my workplace.
Just a bunch of technically mediocre suits and ties with tongues prattling around in nicely coiffed heads.
But highly ranked.
With me being subordinate to them.
The problem is brewing, and I am heading for a boilover
Did their rank impress me? No.
Did their list of accomplishments impress me? No. I heard no evidence from such a head that it could conceive of such things .
But if he found a corporation that would hire him, it could easily have been done under his name.
Would a private jet impress me? Hell, could even explain why a jet will fly. We we're in this business. Can he even diagnose why his car won't work? But will he buy one that is trouble prone and hard to fix? A special mentality will buy stuff like that. Someone else constantly has to trail them, cleaning up their messes.
Expensive suit? Yeh, anyone can buy one.
Personally, I am far more impressed with a good mechanic. I find it far harder to find a good practicioner of the art of maintenance of stuff he has little or no instructions of how to fix it.
I simply do not have the patience to deal with those who seem to think that because something has been approved, it will come to pass. And it takes enormous drains of psychological energy from me to have that type anywhere near me.
I'd rather make my income fixing electrical problems in cars, cause I am already geared up for that, and I am very picky over who I will accept. I recognize that smug "I outrank you" attitude a mile away. I am not touching that car. I will tell that asshat to go buy another car.
A man with privilege, lots of power, and no sense , is nothing but trouble. Stay away from them.
If they tell me I have a bad attitude, well, they paid top dollar for the leadership skill to make me feel that way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @01:58PM
One of the OTA commercials I see is for a product that will make you the manly man you want (or think you used) to be. At the end of the commercial, the smiling ex-sports figure looks at the camera and gives a wink and says "and she'll be glad you did too." Well, they said that these pills have been clinically studied for their effectiveness in raising your testosterone! How can you argue against "clinically studied"?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by choose another one on Sunday May 08 2022, @08:20AM
Pretty sure the flamebait is the "socialist Airbus" reference.
Is that how you see it, is that what you agree with?
Looks to me like Boeing, a once-great engineering company, has been destroyed over the decades by MBA / Marketing / Share-price obsessed / Short-termist incomers (starting with McDD).
Airbus has stayed focused on engineering, albeit with a different control-systems (FBW) philosophy, with a clear aim from the start of building a range of aircraft with commonality of control systems and pilot-aircraft human interface.
Boeing did a different take on FBW (777), which appeared successful and well-liked, and seemed to start on the Airbus commonality pathway with the similar 787, but then did a 180 to go back to building new non-FBW aircraft, throwing out all their NMA / NSA plans. Because it was cheaper that way. In the short term.
But the Boeing approach is "Capitalist" and therefore "good" and the Airbus approach is "Socialist" and therefore "bad" ? Huh?
Well, I'm no socialist but I'll take Airbus's engineering approach over Boeings these days. Wasn't always that way. If the markets work the way they should (capitalism), Boeing's mistakes and missteps should be punished, it _should_ fail. But it hasn't and won't be allowed to because it is propped up, still, by cost-plus defence contracts, it's too big and too important to be allowed to fail. Remind me, which is capitalism and which is socialism again?
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @02:20AM (10 children)
I think one of socialist modders (are there any other kind?) took it upon his/her/itself to downmod the grandparent because he called Airbus socialist. Which it is. (Call it a state run corporation if the "s" word offends you.) Clearly the grandparent commenter was right that Boeing wants that state funded corporation action too with military contracts.
Large corporations IN GENERAL are in bed with the govt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @04:58AM (9 children)
maybe somebody doesn't like you using "socialist" as an insult. which you're clearly doing
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday May 08 2022, @11:47AM (8 children)
But then, you are taking "socialist" as an insult. If socialism is something you support, you ought to wear that badge with pride.
As an exercise, call me a freedom-loving capitalist in a hurtful tone. I will say, with no subterfuge, "Yes, I am a freedom-loving capitalist. Freedom and capitalism have permitted the finest flowering of humanity, and will continue to do so if we nurture them in return."
See?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Sunday May 08 2022, @12:14PM (3 children)
There is no such thing as a freedom-loving capitalist. Any capitalist who has the power to do so will immediately start restricting the freedom of anyone else as soon as it helps his bottom line.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 09 2022, @02:44AM (2 children)
Sure there is. We usually call them entrepreneurs. They love freedom because it allows them to innovate.
The kind of capitalist you are thinking of is called a monopolist, oligopolist, or cartel.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday May 09 2022, @06:45AM (1 child)
Sure, everyone loves to be able to do what they want; that's not freedom-loving, or else dictators would be freedom-loving, too.
Entrepreneurs tend to either patent their innovations, or keep them a secret. Both measures restrict the freedom of others to copy those innovations.
A freedom lover is not someone who loves his own freedom. A freedom lover is someone who loves the freedom of others even when that freedom goes against his own interests.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 09 2022, @12:31PM
Um, no. Entrepreneurs support the freedom to innovate generally, not just for themselves. It's why they befriend other entrepreneurs and champion policies that make it easier for start-ups to start up.
If you philosophically believe that all business activity is evil, and everyone who does it is evil, then no amount of counter-example is going to persuade you, but as a serial entrepreneur I can say that the breed loves freedom for everyone, not just themselves.
Yes, that's it exactly, within reasonable bounds (ie., the classical aphorism of "your freedom to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose."). Thus the freedom of speech means the freedom of those who disagree with you to speak, not just those who share your opinion. And so on.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @02:09PM
"We need a single payer healthcare system."
"No, that's socialism! That will be way more expensive. The market should set the prices!"
"Let's let Medicare negotiate on the prices for prescriptions because they're paying 10x more than everyone else."
"No."
"Let's open the market to drugs from outside the US."
"No."
"Let's set a standard publishing format and make the healthcare providers be clear and upfront on what procedures cost so that people can shop around if they are able."
"No."
"I still think we need a single payer system that everyone pays into."
"NO! SOCIALISM! LEAVE THE CURRENT SYSTEM ALONE AND LET THE MARKET DECIDE!"
(Score: 1) by unauthorized on Sunday May 08 2022, @04:41PM (1 child)
"Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners. " - some Russian guy
Freedom? What freedom? Did you bring freedom to the people of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Honduraz and all the other countries savaged by US Imperialism? Or is it "not true capitalism" when the US hegemony protects the interests of American business owners by slaughtering civilians in other countries and installing "business-friendly" brutal dictatorships? Your freedom is based on the unfair economic relationships that your own empire enforces upon the rest of the world, and by unfair I don't mean "bad business deals they can say no to", I mean using threats and outright violence to destroy your country if you don't comply with American demands. It's fucking rich to talk big about freedom when your comfortable lifestyle is predicated on the subjugation of other people and taking their shit through economic relationships established through bombing the fuck out of them until they comply and then using the so-established economic dominance to force others into compliance, least they are "sanctioned" and prevented form trading essential economic resources.
Finest flowing? You can't even figure out how to give your people homes even through you have hordes of homeless people and tons of empty estate that nobody is using. How many decades should people live on the goddamn street before the invisible hand finally gets off it's lazy palm and gives them homes? Even Cuba can achieve over 85% domestic home ownership and next to no homelessness despite being the subject of an illegal US blockade for half a century now.
So no, I'm not going to call you freedom-loving, because you're not standing on the high ground you're standing on. Your so-called freedom is built upon a mountain of skulls tens of millions high. But I guess, that wasn't real capitalism so it doesn't count even through it was done for the capitalists and usually against the expressed desire of the working class majority.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 09 2022, @05:26AM
Such wonderful examples of virtual paradises trampled by American imperialism, eh? Vietnam, ravaged by the Viet Cong a long time before America got involved. Iraq, brutalized by Saddam Hussein long before America went to war to drive them out of Kuwait. Afghanistan, run as a repressive sharia state for decades before America invaded to get bin Laden, the buy who masterminded the greatest terrorist attack on the US in history.
Meanwhile, other countries that America invaded like Germany and Japan are doing great. So, maybe it's not so simple.
Sure we have. It's called get a job and earn money to pay for your own place to live. There are something like 11 million vacancies in the job market today. Anybody who wanted to work and have a place to live, could. There's even a ladder for people to get off the street. There are subsidized apartments and homes for people who are low income. So, at the risk of sounding harsh, how long before those people get off their lazy palms and get themselves homes?
Meanwhile the US has an extremely diverse and resilient economy that is cranking out smartphones, robots, electric cars, and rockets. That's thanks to capitalism.
Capitalism has produced unparalleled standards of living. Do you want to trade places with, let's say, a factory worker in Pyongyang? You can. That country would hail your arrival as proof that their system is far superior. So, do.
See, you're not really getting the point of the exercise. You are supposed to call me freedom-loving as an insult, and I say, "hell yes I'm freedom-loving," because freedom-loving is something I fully endorse and champion.
You did better with the capitalism bit, so, meh, half marks to you.
Truly, though, if you hate living in liberal democracies with market economies, you can go live somewhere else. There are alternatives that hew much closer to your idea of how a society should live. As a person living in a liberal democracy, you have that freedom to choose; fair warning, though: it may not be as easy to go in the other direction should you wind up having second thoughts...
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday May 09 2022, @04:33PM
Q: Who owns Airbus?
A: Capitalists.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Sunday May 08 2022, @07:21AM (3 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @07:54AM
My own take on the posts were they were best left alone. I felt the negative moderation was not warranted and did what I could to undo it.
I feel doing so backs up my take that what we have here is a crowd sourced moderation exercise to see how practical our system is and how statistics can be used to optimize it.
Scale us up and having individual moderators will become untenable.
The more I think about mixing people, with their idiosyncrasies, against the cold hard machinations of code, is going to be very challenging.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday May 08 2022, @11:52AM (1 child)
"Socialist," though, is a factual term that describes a system of political economy. How an interlocutor feels about that system and term are irrelevant to that fact.
"Nigger," "kike," "faggot," "wop," etc. are slurs by definition, and as such are not at all like calling something "socialist."
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday May 09 2022, @04:35PM
Correct. What it DOES NOT describe is a capitalist company that is owned by capitalists, pays it's profits to capitalists and is operating in a capitalist country.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 08 2022, @12:00AM (1 child)
Is that a genuine rocket surgery term?
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday May 08 2022, @12:20AM
It is when it's a rolling log of shit WTF.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @04:56AM (3 children)
So, like a shade or something? All I know is that I don't want the words "broken" and "window" to occur anywhere remotely near each other in a spaceship context.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Kell on Sunday May 08 2022, @05:30AM (2 children)
Specifically, it's a window cover on the aeroshell of the capsule - whether it is a protective cover for the aeroshell or part of the aeroshell itself I don't know. The aeroshell protects the capsule during ascent in case of any objects or particles in the air (eg. birds) while on ascent. Once clear of the thicker part of the atmosphere, the aeroshell is jettisoned and the capsule continues on its way. The aeroshell does not need to be gas tight and only needs to maintain mechanical strength against pressure acting in against the capsule. If what popped off was merely a protective cover for the aeroshell to avoid scratches and whatnot, then it's no great concern. If it's actually part of the aeroshell itself, it's of slightly more concern - and that part should be replaced in case it took damage from falling - but it's unlikely to be representative of a huge design flaw or even sloppy construction. Aeroshells don't really need to be strong in the way that this one evidently isn't.
I'm as keen to shit on Boeing's incompetence as anyone (though, honestly, they don't need my help) but I will at least be honest about the things they actually get wrong vs things that may appear bad but actually aren't.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by choose another one on Sunday May 08 2022, @08:40AM (1 child)
I agree, but on the other hand if a protective covering fails (and falling off probably counts as failure, _unless_ it was knocked off somehow and expired doing it's job, i.e. protecting), that implies that something that needed protecting is then unprotected. Did they re-protect it, apply a new cover? Apparently not. Apparently that wasn't necessary. So then, why was the protection needed in first place?
I still think, like you, it's a minor issue - the big big big problem, as the article says is that the optics are terrible.
When stuff falls off a SpaceX vehicle, it's ok, it's expected, when it fails on first flight(s), it's ok, it's expected - because Musk/SpaceX are building fast and cheap.
Boeing is _supposed_ to be taking the other approach, slow, expensive, careful, works first time, bits don't fall off. They are failing, terribly, and it looks awfully like what they are doing is just slow and expensive with no better quality (or safety) than SpaceX
(Score: 2) by Kell on Monday May 09 2022, @05:03AM
These are excellent points - thank you!
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 3, Funny) by turgid on Sunday May 08 2022, @08:23AM (2 children)
It's not made by British Leyland is it, by any chance? Does it leak oil too and catch fire?
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @05:40PM
If it continues to run when you shut it off, that could be a problem.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 09 2022, @07:33AM
And with Lucas "Prince of Darkness" electrics?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tizan on Sunday May 08 2022, @11:45AM (1 child)
Seriously when you see how it fell..you realize it can't be something of importance..not even stuck with paper tapes...look like some cardboard cover they forgot to remove for the travel.
I think Boeing should be ridiculed for the mammoth unyieldy beast of non innovation that it has become.
But this is is not it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 08 2022, @02:20PM
It was probably a travel cover to protect the window from damage in transit. If it wasn't necessary then it wouldn't have been there in the first place. That it was improperly secured does not change that fact. Boeing has had serious quality control issues for the last several years, including with this particular vehicle, due to sloppiness and a general lack of professional care. This incident by itself would have been a minor mishap if not for that history.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 09 2022, @06:47PM
Put a fork in Boeing. the Suited Whores ruined it.