Researcher warns of risks with using alternative data in lending:
Traditional credit scoring is based on a person's demonstrated ability to take on debt and pay it off. But with the dawn of larger data pools and access to more sophisticated modeling programs, lenders and credit agencies are taking more nonfinancial factors into rating creditworthiness, particularly those without an extensive credit history. This group tends to include vulnerable populations who are often more susceptible to predatory lending practices.
The problem is the systems developing these alternative scores can be like a black box, according to University of Georgia financial regulation researcher Lindsay Sain Jones. With the pool of personal data available growing, Jones argues that it's time to take a second look at how the American credit scoring system works and is regulated.
[...] In their recent paper, Jones and her co-author argue further regulation of financial reporting entities — both large credit bureaus and new data collectors — is needed in the same way gas, electric and water providers regulated their services. They argue participation in the credit system has become as necessary as having a phone or electricity.
[...] Jones and her co-author are also concerned that much of the lifestyle-related data points lenders correlate with creditworthiness can connect to race, gender, age, socioeconomic status, a person's ZIP code or where they attended college. Successfully challenging this kind of disparate impact under the ECOA [Ed: Equal Credit Opportunity Act] is nearly impossible.
One agency pulled information on how often people pay for gas at the pump versus paying inside the store. People who paid at the pump were deemed more creditworthy.
"There are all kinds of factors that can be correlated with creditworthiness, but that doesn't mean they should be used," Jones said.
When they factor in the web sites that people visit, do you suppose SN would be an asset or liability towards creditworthiness?
[ed note: See also Black Mirror, Season 3 Episode 1, "Nosedive". - fnord]
Journal Reference:
Janine S. Hiller and Lindsay Sain Jones, Who's Keeping Score?: Oversight of Changing Consumer Credit Infrastructure [open], Am. Bus. Law J., 2022
DOI: 10.1111/ablj.12199
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:52PM (6 children)
The 18 year old Buffalo shooter was able to get a debit card and used it (in part) to arm and armor himself...although a story this morning claims that many of his financial transactions were made in silver (I guess he didn't trust USD?)
Could "social media credit scoring" or related have made it more difficult for him to obtain weapons?
I realize that this could generate many, many false positives and be a real inconvenience for people that have legitimate reasons for using credit/debit.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:00PM (1 child)
People who paid at the pump were deemed more creditworthy.
Or have bigger bladders.
(Score: 4, Funny) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:04PM
You too will one day grow old.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:44PM
Possibly, but only if the algorithm flagged as a high suicide risk and they were worried he wouldn't be able to pay the bill!
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:26PM (1 child)
stfu, bitch. Those Niggers were probably up there spending Whitey's money to buy food to grow more Niggers anyways. Call it a fucking wake up call for the homo-erectus.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @09:06PM
If "white replacement theory" is real and it winds up replacing ass-hats like this guy, I will welcome or new black, brown and yellow masters.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday May 20 2022, @02:17PM
That sounds too much like the whole Social Credit thing going on with China. We don't want that. At least those of us that are sane and value our privacy.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Snotnose on Thursday May 19 2022, @02:56PM (21 children)
Will my score go up or down?
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:00PM (8 children)
Came here to write the same thing.
Do SN, green site, automotive forums count as social media? (sometimes they seem downright unsocial, so how does that affect the score?)
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:03PM
Asking for AC.
(Score: 4, Funny) by janrinok on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:08PM (1 child)
I think it is more intended to be the bigger corporations who scrape every item of information from your account and activities, and then sell it on. I think that we are social media in general except for certain journals which are very unsocial media.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:48PM
So true! They would never let a bunch of blowhards rant about politics on social media!
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 19 2022, @05:32PM (4 children)
No data: minimum credit.
Personally, I think it's time we start rolling our own [mangocats.com].
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:09PM (1 child)
> rolling our own ?
Next you'll suggest an SN Visa card... 3 digit UID's all get offers in the mail, at least one a week!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 20 2022, @01:36PM
Plenty of Visa/MC/Amex out there already. The barrier to entry and fees of operation are fundamentally too high on those, they leave a significant number of people "unbanked" even though they might be able to pay their debts, they can't "prove it to the man."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Funny) by RS3 on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:31PM (1 child)
Yeah, maybe. But it might get just as broken as the existing system, or even worse. The existing system is quite sanctioned by the US govt, and doesn't seem to have a corrective mechanism. Well, not much of one, not where it helps the citizens.
How about a form of government where, oh I dunno, maybe where the citizens are somewhat important, needs and issues are considered, and maybe even, dare I say it, we're actually represented? Naaa, sorry, I was falling asleep and starting to dream. I'm not a subversive, honest!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday May 21 2022, @01:54AM
And you're not on social media? Verrrry suspicious...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:08PM (2 children)
They're carefully monitoring your use of the bulletin board outside the public library. However, as concerned as they may be, the government wants them to keep credit available to you to reduce the odds of you going Galt. But keep using that bulletin board! Otherwise they'll think that you're black-pilled and just cut you off completely.
It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @07:53PM (1 child)
They're fine with people going Galt, they're perfectly fine with people dying in a ditch, which is what the real Galt would have been faced with.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @04:57PM
The "real Galt"??? God, you people are really in your own little worlds there, aren't you?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by looorg on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:11PM (6 children)
Hard to say. But a case can probably be made for either. If you don't use it then it could be seen as a sign that you are somehow poor and illiterate or doesn't want to be part of modern society. For some people it might just been seen as a good thing that you don't want to partake in the shallow experience that is "social media".
But all these private data gathering and model operations. Are they just not the same as the Chinese social credit score system but by some other name. They are all creepy and authoritarian as heck. We (in some general sense) criticize China for their system but then institute our own but having it run by the private sector instead of the government, like it or that would somehow make it better. It's really hard to say which is worse and which is better. I'm more inclined to go with that a shit system is shit system no matter who runs it.
The whole idea of a credit score system is quite baffling -- so it's a system that rewards you for taking on debt and then paying it off. Being in debt is never a good thing, paying it off probably is but that is besides the point. So it's a system that somehow rewards you for living beyond your means but somehow manage to hobble along. It doesn't reward say frugality or living within your means. They want you to be in debt and stay there. Fucked up system.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:10PM (2 children)
>For some people it might just been seen as a good thing that you don't want to partake in the shallow experience that is "social media".
I don't think these are the people handing out credit. Business hands out credit and business is predicated on predictability. Less data makes you less predictable.
Also, realize that "poor credit rating" is another way of saying "high credit fees" which is good for profits...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @08:24PM (1 child)
In some places, you're assumed to have decent creditworthiness as long as you're making enough to reasonably pay off the borrowed funds.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @09:21PM
"In some places...." maybe, but not in the good old Corporate Republic Ununited States of Amerika.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:32PM (1 child)
It will be seen as suspicious, that you have something to hide
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @07:59AM
Yes, I do have something to hide.
I pay my bills!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @10:22PM
> so it's a system that rewards you for taking on debt and then paying it off.
Yes baffling. Here's another "go figure" data point. I've paid off my credit card bill consistently, they have never made any interest income from me--in 40+ years. Because I saved up (living frugally, delayed gratification), I was able to buy modest cars (mostly used) and a modest home with cash, so no car loans or mortgage either. I've been very fortunate, but I worked for it too.
My credit score is in the low 800 range (ie, nearly as good as it gets).
Oh, and other than SN, I don't do social media either. Never started (except a LinkedIn account that was closed when they were bought by MicroSoft).
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:00PM
You are not submitting to corporate will, therefore you are automatically untrustworthy.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:57PM
It'll probably stay the same but the people who opt-in will get some kind of bonus/reduction like they do for car insurance these days...
So, in effect it'll go down relative to the social media people I guess.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:08PM (8 children)
Y'know social credit and all that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System [wikipedia.org]
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-punishments-and-rewards-explained-2018-4 [businessinsider.com]
By the way many of the US constitutional freedoms are not protected on private property. But ironically most US people are against Big Government. If the Government officially owned Facebook or Twitter then it would be harder for them to restrict speech...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:16PM (3 children)
Parent said:
By the way many of the US constitutional freedoms are not protected on private property. But ironically most US people are against Big Government. If the Government officially owned Facebook or Twitter then it would be harder for them to restrict speech...
Totalitarian states (such as the former USSR) had antidiscrimination and other such freedoms in their constitution. Guess how that got enforced. Hint: it's just words on paper. I would say many people tend to fear Big Government over business because business can't throw you in prison to rot or command you to give away all that you have.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:59PM (2 children)
He's not wrong though....
If the government did run some kind of digital "public square" they would be held to Constitutional standards not required of private businesses.
Whether or not it's a good idea is a whole other kettle of fish though!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:49PM
Too many people obsess about the size of government and not about the quality. The quality matters more than the size.
A weak corrupt small government being even more subservient to large corporations could be worse especially if the big corrupt government still pretends to "uphold" some of the constitution stuff.
If for example most of the USA became privately owned and controlled by large corporations, stuff like free speech and the right to bear arms would in practice no longer depend on the constitution but on the corporations.
The last I checked the US voters voted and their President was replaced, good or bad the US voters had a hand in it. How many US voters got to vote to change the management or CEO of Twitter or Facebook?
See also countries with weak corrupt small governments that are dominated by large corporations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @04:07AM
Regarding the other person's comment about the USSR etc, if the big government was still a government elected by the people then the voters were just getting a government they voted for.
The claim that businesses can't throw people in prison or rob people is just laughably naive. One of the main reasons corporations don't do that is because governments punish them if they do.
The British and other colonial powers had large corporations with their own military forces and they were going around doing far more and worse than robbing people and throwing them into prison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wars_involving_the_British_East_India_Company [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Slavery_1621%E2%80%931757 [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Conflicts_and_wars_involving_the_VOC [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:50PM (3 children)
Make no mistake, there are those in the West who look with envy at the power the PRC wields over their people.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @05:00PM (2 children)
Rememver when the POTUS fell in love with the leader of the DPRK? Pepperidge farm remembers!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @03:04PM (1 child)
Hit dogs will holler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @09:49PM
No u
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:16PM (1 child)
Well, I don't really know but thank God I don't have an account and always post as AC!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @05:20PM
Thank God I don't post on SN.
(Score: 5, Funny) by bzipitidoo on Thursday May 19 2022, @03:40PM (2 children)
I have a Facebook account. Once worked for an employer who required all employees to get on FB.
I rarely post there. Too dangerous. There, I am connected to my S. O. who through extreme anxiety will read the damnedest things into the most innocent of communications. Merely mentioning someone is enough to be accused of wanting to cheat with that someone. Posts here, however, are seen as "arguing with strangers" and a total waste of time. Besides which, the S. O. thinks the tech orientation of SN is nerdy and dull. Can't look at the site for 10 seconds without becoming nauseated with boredom. I'd catch hell for this post if it ever came to the S. O.'s attention, but those eyes that are so sharp to spot that my eyes are wandering don't last a minute on SN without glazing over.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 19 2022, @06:12PM
>those eyes that are so sharp to spot that my eyes are wandering don't last a minute on SN
Genetically programmed - cheating gazes have been a feature of the mammalian genome for tens of millions of years.
The stuff on SN has barely been in existence for one generation - hard to link it to propagation of genetic codes, yet.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Spamalope on Friday May 20 2022, @02:07AM
That sounds like my cluster B ex. Irrational jealousy was one of the amazing features of that relationship...
So very glad I moved on!
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19 2022, @04:14PM
"debit card" is access to money you have.
"credit card" is access to money you don't have now but promise to give back later ++
i don't want credit; i would however like good service if showing up with a fistful of cash.
alas, it seems, "having cash" is deemed to mean you are rich and thus get poo-pooed on.
if you use a CREDIT card the minion servicing you can relate to your common dilemma.
"having cash" doesn't mean one is rich, but it maybe means that there's a ceramic pig with a slit on its back at home that gets feed until THAT day.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by dltaylor on Thursday May 19 2022, @09:21PM (5 children)
Someone help me to understand this bit of insanity.
I use cash as much as possible. I can see how much I have and have spent more easily than using some lame banking app (as I currently wait for the app to connect to the bank).
If I use a credit card there is a $0.10/gallon surcharge (technically, in California surcharges for using a CC are not legal, so I get a discount of $0.10 for not using one). If I use a debit card, it is ALMOST the same as cash, except for a transaction fee which is less than the CC surcharge, but is still wasted money. So, I am less credit worthy because I can do the arithmetic to figure out the least expensive way to purchase fuel for my truck.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @12:40AM
> the least expensive way to purchase fuel for my truck.
Unless the truck is your work vehicle, I think you are doing it wrong. The way to spend less money on fuel is to use a fuel efficient car (not a truck). Hybrid pickups (like Ford Maverick) are coming, but pretty thin on the ground this year.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 20 2022, @02:44AM (1 child)
Umm... "Creditworthiness" has very little to do with one's ability to do math, especially if it just involves saving a few cents here and there. I've known quite a few math and hard science (i.e., math competent) instructors who lived paycheck-to-paycheck because they couldn't manage money well.
When push comes to shove, what creditors are interested in is, "If we give you credit, will you be able to pay it back in a reasonable fashion? Or will you go on a 'financial bender' and dig yourself into bankruptcy and not pay us our money back??"
Lots of people who are bad at managing money tend to deal in cash, because they can't spend more than they have. Dealing primarily in cash doesn't demonstrate anything to creditors. In fact, using cash often means you are UNABLE to get credit, perhaps due to previous bad use of credit. Which is probably why people who pay for gas with cash generally correlates with worse credit risks.
What does demonstrate ability to manage credit is USING CREDIT. Then responsibly paying it back.
You don't need to have a billion credit cards or use them at the gas pump to have a great credit score. You don't even really need to use credit cards very often at all (as long as they're not so inactive that they get canceled). Take out a loan and pay installments back regularly. Or pay off your credit cards every month and get some points (which in many cases can easily be advantageous over "cash price"). You build up credit trustworthiness by actually USING CREDIT (surprise!) and demonstrating you can do that in a responsible manner.
If gas is a losing proposition for the use of a credit card for you (or in your state or whatever), then don't do it. But in general (maybe not for you, but on average), I can definitely understand how the type of person who pays cash always at the gas station is more likely to be the type of person who doesn't have good credit to begin with -- i.e., someone who may not have the option to use a credit card.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Friday May 20 2022, @02:28PM
This is an interesting case where naive statistical models break down.
The "trustworthiness" is binodal - there are some people who don't use credit cards because they always have money in the bank and simply don't need credit at all; there are some people who don't use credit cards because they can't cope with regular payments. And then there is the morass of folks between.
Sucks if the "good at finance" crowd get hammered when they finally want a mortgage or new bank account.
Chuck out your gaussians! A case for multivariate and non linear analysis (AKA Artificial Stupidity).
(Score: 3, Touché) by sjames on Friday May 20 2022, @04:07AM
They call it a "credit rating" because some might object if they more truthfully called it your "credit exploitability rating".
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday May 21 2022, @02:18AM
Anyone unrelated employee who works a job for some entity, either corporate or private, on the receiving end of cash for transactions hates cash sales. They too often are forced to use too small cash drawers that really leave them scrambling for change (facing the ire of customers forced to wait) any time someone pays with a large bill, or even if too many people in a row pay with twenties (which are all most can get from ATM's). Not to mention the greater risk of a mistake for which an employee might be held liable. There are always customers who, either attempting to force mistakes by a cashier, or just enjoy complicating things for some perverse reason, like to start adding and subtracting items after the cashier has started ringing them up. Use a credit card and any mistakes get rectified later, with only the customer inconvenienced.
Credit worthiness seems to be for a great part determined by having credit but still having most of it available, while at the same time having a record of not missing or being late with payments. The ideal seems to require you to use your credit, but pay it off without accruing interest. Probably to your benefit having some sort of rewards card. Making a big purchase and paying it off ahead of time really makes them take notice. When I bought my car I paid cash, the dealer really, really wanted me to finance it (apparently there are some sort of kickbacks involved), and I could have saved a small sum had I financed it, made three monthly payments so he got his kickback, then paid it off in its entirety. He would have lowered the price by $500, I would have paid less than that $500 in interest for 3 months, but to me it wasn't worth the hassle.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Friday May 20 2022, @08:51AM
Cory Doctorow "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom"
Gotta have Whuffie...