Technology is alienating people:
We take it for granted that technology brings people closer together and improves our access to essential products and services. If you can't imagine life without your smartphone, it's easy to forget that people who can't or don't want to engage with the latest technology are being left behind.
For example, there have recently been reports that cashless payment systems for car parking in the UK are seeing older drivers unfairly hit with fines. This has led to calls for the government to intervene.
Age is one of the biggest predictors of digital exclusion. Only 47% of those aged 75 and over use the internet regularly. And out of the 4 million who have never used the internet in the UK, only 300,000 people are under 55.
But older people are not the only ones who feel shut out by new technology. For example, research shows vulnerable people, such as those with disabilities, are also disengaging with e-services and being "locked out" of society.
From train tickets to vaccine passports, there is a growing expectation that consumers should embrace technology to participate in everyday life. This is a global phenomenon. Out in front, Sweden predicts its economy will be fully cashless by March 2023.
Shops increasingly use QR codes, virtual reality window displays and self-service checkouts. Many of these systems require a smart device, and momentum is building for QR codes to be integrated into digital price tags as they can give customers extra information such as nutritional content of food. Changing paper labels is a labour intensive process.
[...] Essential services such as healthcare, which can already be difficult for older and other people to navigate, are also moving online. Patients are increasingly expected to use the GP website or email to request to see a doctor. Ordering prescriptions online is encouraged.
Not everyone can afford an internet connection or smart technology. Some regions, particularly rural ones, struggle for phone signal. The UK phone network's plans for a digital switchover by 2025, which would render traditional landlines redundant, could cut off people who rely on their landlines.
Concerns about privacy can also stop people using technology. Data collection and security breaches impact people's confidence in organisations. A 2020 survey into consumers' trust in businesses showed no industry reached a trust rating of 50% for data protection. The majority of respondents (87%) said they would not do business with a company if they had concerns about its security practices.
Journal Reference:
Jonathan Elms , Julie Tinson . Consumer vulnerability and the transformative potential of Internet shopping: An exploratory case study, Journal of Marketing Management (DOI: 10.1080/0267257X.2012.691526)
Carolyn Wilson-Nash. Locked-in: the dangers of health service captivity and cessation for older adults and their carers during COVID-19 [open], Journal of Marketing Management (DOI: 10.1080/0267257X.2022.2078861)
Petek Tosun, Selime Sezgin. Voluntary simplicity: a content analysis of consumer comments, Journal of Consumer Marketing (DOI: 10.1108/JCM-04-2020-3749)
Carolyn Wilson-Nash, Julie Tinson. 'I am the master of my fate': digital technology paradoxes and the coping strategies of older consumers [open], Journal of Marketing Management (DOI: 10.1080/0267257X.2021.1945662)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Thursday June 09 2022, @08:46AM (27 children)
Do we? I mean, the heating system in my house is undoubtedly technology, but I don't see how it brings people together, and while it certainly improves my life by keeping the house warm in the winter, I don't see how it improves my access to essential products and services.
Now sure there are technologies that bring people together (such as cars). And there are technologies that improve our access to certain essential products and services (for example, the water distribution system). But that generalization is very obviously false.
Oh, the author thinks that technology equals smartphone.
That being said, the actual problem this is about is very real and important. But that doesn't make the beginning sentences better.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by lentilla on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:30AM (10 children)
Frankly having a warm, inviting house is more conducive to good company! Cars only seem to alienate us from each other. Sure, being able to drive over to see Granny is lovely, but our love affair with cars means that Granny lives far away and every working stiff has to drive to work... and then back home again. So my vote for helpful technology goes to central heating over cars.
You are not wrong about the opening sentence. I had great hopes technology would bring us closer but that dream is dead now two decades. Don't be too despondent - life does find a way, "technology" or otherwise.
My personal current gripe is the requirement to "install an app" to interact with required services. I already segment each "logon" (individual logon credentials, password, etc), what am I expected to do next, buy a smartphone for each separate logon? (The theory is good but I've been reading the tech trade news too long to trust the actual implementation.) So the article absolutely resonates with me.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Opportunist on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:22AM
Having your very own, warm home means you don't have to go out and meet with other people for the sole purpose of actually being able to afford heating a room to a temperature where you can sit without freezing.
You may not know that but yes, there are people who can't afford a warm home. And given the more recent development, the number of those people may well increase.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:49AM (1 child)
Hmmm, maybe that can be done on a single cell phone. Just create a bunch of virtual machines, each with its own environment? The big thing I can't work around with that is the phone number.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hendrikboom on Thursday June 09 2022, @03:34PM
Would the Purism Linux-based phone help? Or the Pinephone?
Or would they solve the problem in a vacuous manner -- all Android apps running on them will respect all privacy consideration because Android apps don't run on them?
Or do some in fact run?
Anyone know?
(Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:58AM (3 children)
A good thing those trains. Not to speak of WFT, happens a lot lately.
I reckon that makes me a working loose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @03:38AM (2 children)
WFT = Walleyes for Tomorrow
Or did you have another meaning in mind?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday June 10 2022, @09:39AM
Typo for WFH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @02:51PM
Work From Train, duh.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 09 2022, @03:45PM
Plus everyone in any car other than mine is automatically an asshole!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:26PM (1 child)
Many of those apps could be nothing more than a web site designed for mobile.
But an app:
* can get access to your contacts (this is valuable data to sell to anyone trying to construct a complete graph of the social network)
* can get access to your files and photos
* can track your location constantly and phone it home
* can find out what other apps you have installed
* can find out what music you have
It used to be true that an app was required to give you annoyitating pop up advertisements on your phone. But now this can be done through a web browser.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 11 2022, @03:34PM
Why the heck would you want an app then? You can't tell if it has raped your mobile device.contacts et al and sent the proceeds to the internet.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday June 09 2022, @01:24PM (3 children)
Cars are an isolating mechanism. Yes, they have their "social connection at a distance" function, but when there are lots of cars, there are fewer pedestrians, people tend to know fewer of their neighbors, etc. Also shops tend to take remote positions, so there are fewer local hubs. Etc.
There are many ways in which cars are desirable, but causing more social connections isn't one of them.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Freeman on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:37PM (1 child)
How much of a social connection do you get with people in New York City while walking on the sidewalk? For that matter, anywhere else? How many random strangers do you strike up a conversation with? How many of them would rather you just shut-up?
The bigger problem are the people who think "I have 56123 friends", but they can't invite any of them over for dinner. Due to the fact that they aren't actually friends. Just because Facebook says they're a "friend" doesn't mean they actually are friends or even decent human beings for that matter or perhaps literally not human (bot).
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 09 2022, @05:46PM
The answer to your first question is quite a bit, actually. If you are in your own neighborhood and you've been there long enough and gotten involved in civic events then you'll run into people you know on the street all the time. It's lovely. It's much more social than any other place I've ever lived, be it small towns or suburbs.
As for random strangers, you have quite a few conversations with those. Most are good or neutral, some are weird and off-putting. Depends quite a lot on where you are and what time of day it is.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday June 10 2022, @10:04AM
I think the garage door opener/closer is even worse.
I have yet to meet several neighbors.
They come, they go, but just as privately as dropping a deuce.
Door opens, they drive in, windows closed, door closes. That's it.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by richtopia on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:36PM (1 child)
I have to imagine there was a time where similar conversations occurred regarding telephones: most companies expect you to have a phone number to do business. And today it is the expectation you have a smartphone.
I will leave my smartphone at home during leisure outings; I'm on a computer or other device so much I like the strong disconnect. This has lead me to leave restaurants that require you to scan a QR code for their menu. I've also walked out of establishments refusing to accept cash. Unfortunately I doubt my lost business will convince anyone to change their ways.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 09 2022, @03:48PM
Yeah I hate those too. Used to be bad manners to be fucking with your phone at a nice restaurant!
Thus far, however, every time I've asked they've had a few printed menus in the back so I think you just gotta ask....
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:41PM
Indeed, being women, the authors aren't capable of deeper connections then that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:24PM (8 children)
Anyone else here NOT own a smartphone? I'm starting to think I'm in a pretty tiny minority.
My first cell phone was an LG flip phone I got in about 2003. When Verizon shut down the 2/3G networks I got the 4G LTE flip phone I have now. Maybe if I lived in a city I'd have a tougher time doing without one. The way it stands now I sure don't miss it. Granted I'm sure I text a lot less than some, and for that, yes, I've mastered the retro art of T9 word texting.
I am getting a little sick and tired of the growing areas where it's assumed that everyone has one.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:38PM (4 children)
I do own a smartphone. It does not rule my life. I do not and never will use social media such as Facebook, Twitter and the like.
I use a smartphone as a tool. Something that helps me make my life better. Not worse. I actually use it to interact with human beings through SMS or similar app.
I use it for utility purposes such as getting directions, looking something up. Getting messages that my prescription is ready. Etc.
I am only now beginning to use my phone (and smart watch) to pay for things. I could have done that long ago, but had no major reason to do so. I just now am recognizing that it is easier than whipping out my card to pay. A convenience.
I think the comparison to the first telephones is apt. Not everyone had them. But they have great utilitarian value. So more people got them. Older people could not or simply did not want to adapt to them. I would probably be in that group except that I am not adverse to technology since I help work to make some of this technology possible.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday June 09 2022, @05:52PM (3 children)
I'd actually like a smartphone if there was an open source non-proprietary option available that I actually had full control of. I don't get the impression there's anything in the smartphone realm close to that at least at the moment.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @07:01PM (1 child)
take a look at https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ [puri.sm]
(Score: 3, Informative) by digitalaudiorock on Thursday June 09 2022, @07:30PM
Eh...looks interesting. Unfortunately however one of the few things I'm even more vehemently against using than a proprietary phone is ANY Linux system with systemd. Never have, never will. A shame too...looks interesting aside from that Godless pollution.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @05:54AM
PinePhone Pro?
(Score: 1) by charon on Thursday June 09 2022, @08:43PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @03:50AM
No smartphone. I had a cell phone ages ago, bought it before a two week road trip and programmed in all the phone numbers I'd need to call while away. The damn thing rarely worked correctly and I got my money back when I returned it a few weeks later (minus the minutes charged for the calls that did work).
Since then no cell phone. I can borrow my sister's flip phone (she rarely uses it) if I need one to coordinate a meetup while traveling (say, at a large event).
I text through a free Google Voice account (on a laptop), usually works OK (but not 100% reliable).
The land line (now through cable TV coax) gives consistently high quality voice connections and I use it frequently for work. Sometimes email is too cumbersome to discuss different aspects of a tough problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @10:08PM
I don't own a smartphone and am well under 50.
And this article is basically correct. Demanding you scan the QR code, or pay cashless, or whatever is highly alienating. If your brick & moror store requires a smartphone, or is cashless, I hate your guts and strongly support the government passing laws that turn your life into the hell you are turning mine into (same for stores track their customers). We are moving to a world where there all humans are Apple-branded or Google-branded. And Visa-branded or Mastercard-branded. and if you don't carry said brands you are inhuman.
I am not against all technology - I would not be posting here if I were. However, maintaining a healthy mental state includes controlling & limiting your use of technology. If I want to enjoy an evening out without me, personally, using a smartphone I should be able to do that. A society that forces everybody to constantly use smartphones for day-to-day life is profoundly sick.
For god sake, smartphones make my life worse, the internet is bad enough (as this post may show). Don't turn me into a pariah for not having one.
Now, to turn off the web and enjoy a good book...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @09:03AM (1 child)
People always come to me for help with "technological" stuff, because I'm the guy that knows computers.
Yet, I'm maybe the person in my environment that uses those "technological" things the least. Why? Because I know
that things can go bad if you have to trust AND rely on them. Most of these things don't have failsafes, that the things
they replace have. Than there is the whole privacy-bomb lingering by using these things and don't get me started of
"being in control". All these things make you dependent to someone or something else. You should not want that.
I also started to notice the past few years that I value human contact more when I need something done, the thing that
this development seems to replace.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:01AM
Agreed and seconded.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @09:48AM (19 children)
Why do the older members not got get into the latest tech? One reason I know because I am seeing it in my own life is fatigue. I have been embracing the latest tech now for 30 years. Lets say that during that time the UI on my tech has radically changed every 5 years requiring me to relearn it all. that means I have had to do that 6 times now. You know what? I am sick of it. It used to fun but not any more. I must be getting old.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by looorg on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:05AM (6 children)
I would say that it's a version of that. I look at new tech when it comes around. If it's interesting or not. Mostly it is evaluated on the basis of if it will be useful or if it will make my life somehow better. Turns out most of it won't, it won't make it better or easier or interesting or whatever. So it's not really about it being new or hard or anything or me turning into some grandpa sitting on my porch yelling at clouds of the kids to get of my lawn. It's just that most "new" tech is pointless and shallow and that it won't make my life any better so I just don't bother with it.
Is that sometimes problematic? Sure. A lot of interactions these days require that you identify yourself with one of the multitude of ID schemes connected to your phone or some certificate etc. If you don't have that ... problem. Stores are starting to go cashless etc. Yet this fantasy they talk about here that Sweden should be cashless next spring is a complete work of fiction as the Riksbank (the central bank) and MSB (civil contingency agency) are all warning about the effects of a cashless society and telling people to keep cash around in case of emergencies etc. So that big city folks are running around blipping their phones and cards to pay for all and everything is one thing but it doesn't make a cashless society. That some stores chose to be cashless have more to do with banking fees, practicality and risk of getting robbed and such things. No store has so far denied me paying cash even tho they have signs around telling me I can't pay cash. I wish people opened their eyes to the privacy aspect of using cash over digital transactions but that has so far not happened, or they just can't grasp the concept of all the data mining going on behind the scenes.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:53AM (5 children)
My United States Dollar has the following legal businesstalk printed on it:
"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private".
Doesn't that mean that if I bring an item to checkout, and they don't accept my legally sanctioned notes as payment, then in essence, they have given me the item?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by maxwell demon on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:02AM (1 child)
No. Usually the contract is that you only get ownership of the object after payment. Since you didn't get ownership of the object before, you do not have debt, which you could pay for with those dollars. But rather you have an offer from the shop owner that if you pay a certain amount in a certain way the shop owner accepts, he will transfer ownership of the object to you.
That's also why, if you leave the shop without paying, it's not considered delayed payment, but theft.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Touché) by sjames on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:51PM
OOOPPS, It appears I have ripped the box open, I guess I owe you for this item. I present to you this legal tender to cover my debt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:06AM
One could say that you don't have a DEBT with the store because they refuse to sell you any goods in the first place. Therefore, you don't have a DEBT with them.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:13AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:48AM
No, but that clause does matter if you try to use cash to, say, settle a bar tab.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Frosty Piss on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:23AM
I see this. I do have the latest phone and a nice desktop in addition to a tablet. But I haven’t watched (or streamed) “TV” in over 8 years.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:55AM (2 children)
This a great point. I'm even starting to notice fatigue in younger individuals (school age) who enjoy using technology, but are annoyed by the constant changes and updates forcing them to re-learn the same processes in different ways. Even they don't understand why if something has worked fine for so long suddenly needs changed.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday June 10 2022, @11:11AM (1 child)
It's the same frustration as the famous "broken window" and the glazier fallacy.
I do something. It's done. I need to move on and build in what I have.
It's a huge waste to have to go back and redo something that was supposed to stay there.
All the fun of things that weren't made right in the first place.
Talk to some condominium owners in Florida about the joys of tolerating concrete and structural design not done right.
I have a lot of other things to do that waste time on things that don't last. Why do I pour a concrete and rebar foundation? Or just do the cheap thing and use untreated wood?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday June 10 2022, @11:15AM
/s/that waste time/than waste time
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by anubi on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:13PM (1 child)
So far, I've been blessed to have my credit union and banking offices open, albeit most of my visits were handled at the ATM.
I have a nice smartphone that T-Mobile provided on their $50/month senior magenta plan. 6 GB RAM, 128 GB internal, and 128 GB TF memory. Works as wifi hotspot too. Motorola 5G ONE.
Other than T-Mobile, I do not have ANY monthly bills for phone/TV/internet/streaming etc.
I have seen way too much stuff become unobtanium once someone else throws a switch. By God, if I buy a tool, put it in my toolbox, I expect it to be there untilI take it out!
But in the software world, the only things I can truly own are things I made myself, or things others made and offered me a copy. Most anything I buy is revokable. Now, why would I want something I can't count on to be there when I need it?
No Google account. Didn't want one.
Amazon, Rock Auto, and Ebay still work for me.
I have avoided like the Dickens to avoid doing anything with the government via the net. I download their forms every year, continue to fill them in with pen and ink, as I have done for over 50 years. I do not do things that invoke government meddling such as generating income or doing things for tax credit, such as solar panels. I don't want to have to hire tax help.
I just do not trust them.
In my mind, anyone who would ask me to sign legal papers with print so small I can't read it, can't be trusted.
I've got a lot of extremely useful tools...about 100GB of them! Side loaded stuff. Not a thing from the play store. Network tools. Spectrum tools. Oscilloscopes. Signal generators. All sorts of calculators. And looking for Bluetooth HMI tools.
My biggest fear is one day, in the middle of the night, they upgrade my phone to be incompatible to whatever didn't come from the play store.
I consider that to be breaking, entering, and malicious mischief, but electronics and sales businesstalk is involved. The Law probably won't back me, but if I played similar games with tiny print that they agree to my crap by accepting payment, and I did that, now they would likely consider what I did to be criminal.
Using side loading, I have been through five cellphones, and they all work nearly identically.
I am sold on Motorolas. I hope one day to learn how to root them so I can enable Miracast, but so far, I route via FTP/Trebleshot any content I want to cast to a cheap WalMart ONN tablet, which will do Miracast.
I still use the earlier phones as test equipment and file storage, as most of the stuff I have does not require a carrier service. So, I just can't make calls on expired phones.
Once I buy a house, even the person who built it is unwelcome unless invited!
I don't consider myself to be a complete technological dummy, neither do I consider myself to be some manipulator's pooch in the presence of coyotes.
Yes, I am terribly set in my ways.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday June 14 2022, @02:54PM
"Yes, I am terribly set in my ways."
[eyes XP, my thoroughly retro everyday desktop]
I understand this. :)
But actually, it's because it does what **I** want, **how** I want, not what someone else wants in some way that irritates me more than it's worth, or restricts my natural use of my tool. Same for any tool, from screwdriver to car.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:38PM (1 child)
As the saying goes, use it or lose it.
While it's annoying to learn new things, learning new things is how you don't become a vegetable. Learning a new UI is actually not so much effort. Maybe annoying, like my comment, but it's part of life and a very small part of it. Go with the punches, or you get to sit it out, complaining in the corner about this or that wichiagig.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday June 10 2022, @03:26AM
Sounds like you haven't done it much. For my job, I have about half a dozen programs (overall tasks are accounting-related, mostly to gather data from various sales sources and keep track of stuff). They range from a locally sourced program with an excellent UI and a great programmer supporting it to a cloud-based abomination that my group assigned a sacrificial victim to so that nobody else has to deal with it.
If your UI is some sort of weird learning opportunity, then you're doing it wrong.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Thursday June 09 2022, @01:24PM
Yup. I used to love learning new tech. I even tried to stay current on tech I didn't use. There came a point, maybe 25-30 year into my career, where I saw this as a hamster wheel. Young folk coming up with "new" ideas that I had already seen in previous generations. Obviously not in identical form - it's more of a spiral than a circle.
Then we get the gratuitous UI changes. Round or square corners? Transparent or not? 2D or 3D? All of the above have come and gone and come back again. How about leaving the old appearance(s) as options, rather than forcing everyone to jump on the latest old-is-new-again bandwagon?
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:07PM (1 child)
There's that, but there's also the arrogance of having achieved something decades ago and not needing to learn anything. It's more of a generational issue and I doubt very much that older people being excluded by technology will remain a thing. They're from a generation that could afford to largely stop learning much earlier and be ok with non-work tasks. That really isn't the case and hasn't been for years now.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @04:15AM
> There's that, but there's also the arrogance of having achieved something decades ago and not needing to learn anything.
Decades ago I learned how to use a hammer. Haven't had any UI problems pounding nails since I mashed a few fingers. I even have a modest collection of different hammers (a couple of dozen) designed for other uses, some take real skill (like panel beating) but the basic UI is obvious.
Decades ago I started using email, have had to jump through hoops several times for no good reason except some punk decided to change the UI and/or decided that a feature I used wasn't necessary anymore (so I had to find a work-around).
I don't want to keep learning how to use the same tools over and over, that's boring and a waste of time. I want to keep learning by doing new things with the tools I have. And learning how to use completely new tools--that's fun.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 09 2022, @06:02PM
I emphatically second that. The pointless, stupid UI changes require scrapping the muscle memory that made the thing a useful tool and not an irritation. You have to re-learn everything.
You can get around all that on a laptop or desktop because you can hang on to those for years. Phones' batteries, however, don't last and you have to replace them regularly. So you wind up getting caught out by change-for-the-sake-of-change on a regular basis.
For that reason I have been following PinePhone and Purism with interest for a while now. I want off the commercial merry-go-round.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Thursday June 09 2022, @10:01AM (15 children)
Those "smart devices" that you can't reasonably do without nowadays are all essentially controlled by Google or by Apple - one of which whose very existence depends on siphoning off people's private data, the other trying it's hardest to pretend it doesn't do it too.
Case in point: I need a cellphone to log into my bank's home banking website, because I need to authenticate using a custom-made 2FA app from that bank
No app, no home banking.
No cellphone, no app.
No home banking, no banking, because the bank has closed its local branches during the pandemic, and won't reopen them because they're saving a bundle.
So I need a cellphone running Android. Android is Google's surveillance platform. Don't believe me? Trace the traffic between your IDLE cellphone running no application. It's fucking scary.
On top of this, the bank's app is officially only available on Google Play. In other words, unless you're willing to take a chance with Aurora, Aptoide or APKPure, the only legit way to get the bank's app is to register an account with Google.
And to top it all off, here in my country, if you want to use any official state website (social security, taxes, vehicle inspection...), you need to authenticate with a bank. Meaning I have to use the bank's app to access state services.
What all this means is, my ability to function normally in society depends on my getting a Google-powered tracking device, opening a Google account I don't need nor want and submitting to constant Google surveillance.
I don't want anything to do with Google to get social security benefits or pay my bills, yet this is virtually MANDATED by my country's government and by my bank!
And no, before you point out that Apple isn't as bad, I won't get an iPhone because:
1/ I don't want a cellphone where I don't have any say over what I'm allowed or not allowed to run on it. Corporate dictatorship isn't the answer to corporate surveillance.
2/ Apple isn't as bad... maybe. But that sure doesn't mean they're squeaky clean as far as tracking its users go.
3/ I don't see why I should spend extra for my privacy to be respected (assuming Apple did respect people's privacy, which they don't)
Why? Why give Google that much power just to allow ordinary citizens to live normal lives? If this doesn't scare you even a little bit, I don't know what will.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:10AM (3 children)
So you have made the decision that you value your privacy less than those other things you mentioned and that's why you've got an Android phone.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Opportunist on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:19AM (2 children)
If by "other things" you mean being able and allowed to pay your bills, then yes.
You are aware that this is basically the Hobson's choice he has? Either submit to surveillance or be unable to have a functioning bank account?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:58AM (1 child)
If that is true -- that his bank requires an Android app -- then that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. It reminds me of stories in the past that all Korean banks required you to run a browser with ActiveX in order to use the banking website, causing problems when ActiveX was being deprecated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @07:05PM
No, they don't require an Android app.
You could use their iOS app instead!
I fear this will soon happen where I live too. I already can't buy a ticket for public transport without an app, because they removed all the payment facilities at stations, and the closest store that sells tickets is a 30 minute walk away.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:10AM (5 children)
Well, fortunately while my bank does offer an app, it also offers to authenticate with a separate device (it's a proprietary device, but it's one that has only the single purpose of acting as second factor for 2FA). And to my pleasant surprise, the device (which gets plugged into the USB port) even works with Linux.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by FatPhil on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:23AM (3 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by quietus on Sunday June 12 2022, @04:39PM (2 children)
Odd that you need to install software for an ID reader --
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday June 12 2022, @08:12PM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Interesting) by quietus on Tuesday June 14 2022, @02:09PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:10PM
My bank also offers the ability to do most transactions via ATM. There's a few that need either the website or a physical branch, but nothing I couldn't live without it that doesn't have an alternative.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @02:15PM
This is true google does way to much tracking. I do have an android phone, but I have done work to stop it from "phoning home all the time" such as on my home network I have a pi-hole, and I block all of google's web sites. And for the "connectivy check" (connectivitytest.googleapi.com) so my phone will not say no internet is set to point to one of my home servers that sends back an empty 204 response (what the phone is looking for) When I look at the logs, the phone is pinging it every 5 seconds (what data are they sending that often)
(also on my pi-hole not only block all of google, but also there are lists to block all of facebook, and twitter)
Also when I am out and about, I have a OpenVPN endpoint on my home network, and my cell phone is always connected to that VPN end point.
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:00PM
Maybe it's different where you live, but here in the US I don't need anything but my SSN to open a bank account (business registration if it's not a personal account). Need to pay a bill? Write and mail a check. Need to make a deposit? Take the check to the bank and hand it to the teller.
I've never used an ATM or done banking online. When I get a client that asks, "What's your Wepay?" I respond, "Cash or check." I do have PayPal but only b/c it was required for eBay. However, I'll be damned if I let them have access to my bank account, so I opened a passbook savings account and linked it to that.
Like an earlier commenter said, I too have walked out of restaurants that require a smartphone to look at the menu. I like the funny looks I get when I tell people, "I left my phone in the car."
I know, I know, why are you on my lawn?
To be oneself, and unafraid whether right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformity
(Score: 3, Interesting) by vux984 on Thursday June 09 2022, @05:50PM (2 children)
"because I need to authenticate using a custom-made 2FA app from that bank"
Do you actually need a serviced smartphone or just something that can run the app?
Curious if android subsystem for Windows 11 is a workaround, or a tablet, or a used smartphone with no service, just wifi.
Also, have you considered changing banks? You claim that as a knock-on effect of your bank's system, and your state's dependency on bank authorization you require a google account to communicate with the state... but is that really true, or just true if you use that bank? My bank even supports, alongside it's app; automated voice calls that will dictate the 2FA codes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10 2022, @04:30AM (1 child)
> My bank even supports, alongside it's app; automated voice calls that will dictate the 2FA codes.
Yep, same here (USA). For our little company we have the bank call our land line for the 2fa code to get into the banking website.
For my personal banking, no apps, I go to the branch and can still deal with a teller or officer. Might take a little longer but once they know me the people at the bank branch have my back. Once they spotted some fraud on a personal account and phoned me--suggested I come in to discuss (no personal info spoken on the phone).
Have a PayPal account for using eBay. Used to sell a few things and get payment through PayPal, but not this year--if you receive more than USD $600 through PayPal or other "payment processor" they must issue you a 1099 for miscellaneous income. Then you have to explain to the IRS why that wasn't a taxable sale (or maybe it was??)
(Score: 2) by quietus on Tuesday June 14 2022, @02:40PM
I don't know whether tellers even exist here (Belgium) anymore. It used to be that you could still go to a local bank and manage your accounts through a self-service machine, but they cleaned these up just before covid too. The only public-facing person I've seen -- but that was pre-covid -- was a glamorized receptionist, having to explain online banking to elderly customers. It was a bit of a queue.
The banks here will only talk to you about investments and loans, and only after an appointment.
A colleague once pointed out that the best earning job could well be being a toilet lady -- everything in cash, and no chance the local IRS will check your real income.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Opportunist on Thursday June 09 2022, @11:24AM (5 children)
I'm an introvert. Actually, a misanthrope. I hate humans. Yet when I was growing up, I was forced to forgo the company of my machine, go out and interact with humans against my will.
It's payback time, bitches. Now you forgo the interaction with people and learn to use the machines. Cry me a fucking river.
Same to you extroverts that "suffer" so badly in this horrible, horrible pandemic lockdown. Welcome to what my world was like when I had to go out and meet you. Suffer, assholes!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by lentilla on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:22PM (4 children)
If it were only the choice between dealing with a dense human or a Artificial Intelligence, then you would have no complaint.
Unfortunately for everyone - introverts and others, user interfaces combine the absolute worse of idiot bureaucracy with most facetious of robo-extrovert pleasantries. Not a good combination.
Pretty much every time I hit a "fill in this form with stuff I am not comfortable giving" I have an innate desire to reach for the phone for a 30 second chat with an expert to get me where I need to be (or to tell me I need to go somewhere else). Perhaps your experience is different? Do you achieve what you want through filling in forms and jumping through hoops to achieve your goals?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by anubi on Thursday June 09 2022, @01:10PM (2 children)
Understood!
The words "just download our app" sends waves of nausea through me, like being asked to give some stranger a key to my house.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 14 2022, @02:37PM (1 child)
What we need is app containerisation so we can isolate them from the system and feed it whatever data is suitable. My phone number is 4546378321 for example. My geolocation is hawaii. You get the idea. Can't be that hard? Linux has containers, right? Similar to Fiefox tabs where each tab only sees its data. Maybe people would pay for this?
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday June 15 2022, @12:29AM
You really gotta watch these marketing/MBA types.
They spend years studying how to manipulate people and avoid responsibility.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Thursday June 09 2022, @03:38PM
AIs have the unbeatable advantage that it's legal to just switch them off when you're done with them.
Try that with a person and you won't hear the end of it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:13PM (3 children)
It is NOT about the latest fucking technology it is about how brain dead consumertards use it.
If everyone were carrying around some 1980s gadget that constantly fed them short mindless alerts, I STILL would not use it. Because that is not the way I work.
I'm always at my desk, and my "land line" telephone is so much more reliable, at least for me, so I simply don't NEED a mobile/cellular telephone.
Some people on this planet are just different and don't want to conform to the fake "normality" that smartphone ads pump out.
I get fucking sick and tired of being in the same room with someone who is supposed to be paying attention to me or others, only to have them stare at their dumb little smartphone like some kind of zombie.
But calling those who do not conform to the almighty smartphone commercials are old, aging, behind-the-times, Luddites. Right. Just keep feeding that belief like they want you to. And don't forget to download our FREE news app/advertising platform/malware/spyware like a good little sheep.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:47PM (2 children)
I don't know, but in many countries around the world, cell phones provide cheaper phone service. Often times, you can have a number for free. Incoming calls are of course free. So, it's less expensive. And you can move it, if you'd like. Or leave it at home, if you'd like.
Regarding ads, I haven't had one on my phone, ever. I simply not installed anything with ads and I've turned off the stupid news crap. So, use it like a desk phone if you like - my parents do. They even leave it in the "phone room" like it's a regular phone. But it also allows us to cal and messagel over Matrix (WebRTC) and whatnot. Why need for rants?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @12:58PM (1 child)
We got rid of our "landline" phones a few years ago to save money.
We already own cell phones, so the landline phones were redundant.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @01:30PM
While it might be different I don't think I could even get an actual landline again or anymore. By actual here we are talking like copper going to your house kind of line. They are gone. The telecos here ripped them up, or are still in the process of doing so. I can have a "landline" but it's really a "fakeline" as it just connects to the fiber in the basement and it's VOIP all the way beyond that. So just cause you still pick up your old desk/wall phone doesn't make it landline anymore.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by crafoo on Thursday June 09 2022, @01:32PM (2 children)
I think there is a real desire by those that are designing the next steps in our societies to make people more isolated and alienated. It makes people easier to control and manipulate. People with strong families and local communities tend to have their own ideas about how to best conduct their lives. This runs counter to centralized control and pervasive surveillance.
I also think values that support atomized, alienated society are instilled as early as possible into children via our public schools, and that this is the real issue.
Technology could be made to support a close-knit, active society or a atomized wasteland, or anything in between. I think "tech creates alienation" is a cover story and people know it's bullshit. People need a semi-plausible story to point to though to rationalize what we are doing to ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 09 2022, @03:53PM (1 child)
That takes a lot of effort to plan and execute....
Way easier to just throw some shit like Twitter at the wall and see if it sticks.
That seems like a much better model for what I have observed over the last 30 years or so w/r/t the internet.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 09 2022, @06:11PM
I agree with crafoo that there is a real desire and plan to effect the kind of change he's talking about, but in practice it's closer to what you describe. The people who want to do the kind of thing crafoo is talking about definitely are heavily overrepresented at those levels, but they are not that bright when it comes to social engineering. They are terrible at picking winners and losers when it comes to technology.
It's why they bandwagon so hard when something like Google does catch on, though even in retrospect they really can't explain to you why it caught on. Remember, nobody figured out how Google worked or could make money until about 10-15 years into it. For a very long time it was just a search engine that worked better than the alternatives out there, not a profit-making entity.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09 2022, @04:32PM
So they want to change the nutritional information without reprinting the box? If its easily changed its not contained in the QR code, but the QR code just contains a link to a webpage that they can update at will.
And they wonder why people hate this shit.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 09 2022, @06:15PM
Cars are alienating people. People don't rein in and chat on the street they way they used to on horseback.
Telephones are alienating people. Instead of calling on friends and neighbors and sipping lemonade on the front porch while catching up on the gossip, they let calls go to voicemail.
Television is alienating people. Instead of going to the theater and rubbing shoulders with their fellow citizens, they sit alone in their living rooms.
Airplanes are alienating people. Instead of epic road trips and having encounters with people along the way, they essentially teleport from home to a hotel and interact with few others.
Washington DC delenda est.