from the that's-2.4384-meters-for-the-Imperically-challenged dept.
Critics say the law gives police too much discretion:
The same week that a federal judge sentenced ex-cop Derek Chauvin to more prison time for killing George Floyd, Arizona passed a law making it harder to record police by limiting how close bystanders can be while recording specified law enforcement activity. Chauvin was convicted in part because a recording showing his attack on Floyd at close proximity went viral. It was filmed by a teenager named Darnella Frazier while she was standing "a few feet away."
The new Arizona law requires any bystanders recording police activity in the state to stand at a minimum of 8 feet away from the action. If bystanders move closer after police have warned them to back off, they risk being charged with a misdemeanor and incurring fines of up to $500, jail time of up to 30 days, or probation of up to a year.
Sponsored by Republican state representative John Kavanagh, the law known as H.B. 2319 makes it illegal to record police at close range. In a USA Today op-ed, Kavanagh said it is important to leave this buffer for police to protect law enforcement from being assaulted by unruly bystanders. He said "there's no reason" to come closer and predicted tragic outcomes for those who do, saying, "Such an approach is unreasonable, unnecessary, and unsafe, and should be made illegal."
Some exceptions: a person being questioned, arrested or otherwise handled by police can record, "as long as it doesn't interfere with police actions." The same exception extends to anyone recording while in a vehicle involved in a police stop. If you're inside an enclosed structure on private property you also have an exception. The caveats "unless law enforcement determines that the person is interfering" or "it is not safe" for them to be in the area potentially gives police a lot of discretion over who can record and when.
Related Stories
The disputed law makes it illegal to knowingly film police officers 8 feet or closer if the officer tells the person to stop:
A federal judge on Friday blocked enforcement of a new Arizona law restricting how the public and journalists can film police, agreeing with the American Civil Liberties Union and multiple media organizations who argued it violated the First Amendment.
U.S. District Judge John J. Tuchi issued a preliminary injunction that stops the law from being enforced when it is set to take effect on Sept. 24. The quick decision came after Republican Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich and the prosecutor and sheriff's office in Maricopa County told the judge they did not plan to defend the law. They were named as defendants in the lawsuit filed last month.
[...] KM Bell, an ACLU attorney who lobbied against the bill at the Legislature and was in court Friday, said they were pleased the judge acted quickly.
"We are extremely gratified that Arizonans will not have their constitutional rights infringed and their ability to record the police criminalized by this law," Bell said.
Previously: Arizona Makes It Illegal for Bystanders to Record Cops at Close Range
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday July 15 2022, @08:29PM (8 children)
(sum) police will try to abuse any amount of discretion you give them.
[_] That doesn't look like 8 feet to me, put your hands behind your back to get tazed
[x] If you back up to more than 8 feet, I will continue to approach you to close the gap. It then turns into a chase. Then resisting.
However the police are not the only ones who cause trouble. There are these so called 'sovereign citizens'. They will do a so called "1st amendment audit" with a purpose and intent to disrupt, harass and obstruct officers doing their sworn duty. They are not merely observing. They are there to make ordinary people uncomfortable at best. Such as in a post office recording me, when only the government should be recording what I do. If you're at an active crime or accident scene and want to record, then it seems reasonable to stay out of the way. Don't interact with the officers. Unless you're actually trying to cause trouble.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 15 2022, @08:40PM (1 child)
Oh, that was YOU in the post office? Hey, it was nothing personal, man. I just wanted to get my Youtube ratings up some. BTW, you know it's illegal to ship fentanyl from the post office?
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by DannyB on Friday July 15 2022, @09:05PM
Good point. In the future when I am at the post office, I will auction off my fentanyl rather than attempt to mail it.
That probably won't affect your YouTube ratings.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 15 2022, @11:18PM (5 children)
The best First Amendment audits feature the auditor standing or walking around in public places like a sidewalk, disrupting nothing, oftentimes in complete silence. The police get called or come to the auditor on their own, and lose their shit when they don't get absolute obedience beyond what the law requires. You have no expectation of privacy out in public or in public buildings.
"Sovereign citizen" is used as a dog whistle by law enforcement "fusion centers" to justify government intimidation of people engaged in constitutionally protected activities.
In short, don't be a bootlicker. The whole point of protesting is to make people uncomfortable, and if an auditor can do that just by standing around and asserting their rights, more power to them.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @12:18AM (4 children)
"Sovereign citizen" is a grift (usually run as a pyramid scheme), with no basis in fact, law, history, or reason. In courts, they invariably end up labelled vexatious litigants. Outside of courts, they're unusually comfortable with breaking the law, which is very rarely a constitutionally protected activity. After all, if you don't think there's a legitimate court available to punish you, why NOT run that red light? Why NOT rip up that ticket once the fucker with the gun goes away? Why NOT fuck your tax returns? Why NOT take the new car off the dealership lot and say the debt incurred by the paperwork you signed is fictional? They sure like taking money, though.
Sovcits really want no part of society, except spotting opportunites to rip others off. Hell, even Nazis believe in a society, though you won't make the cut.
I need to lie back on the veranda swing with an iced tea now. Get off my lawn.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @12:13PM (3 children)
You sound like a cop deliberately misunderstanding the point. "Sovereign citizens" are generally nuts. "First Amendment Auditors" are a completely separate group pushing back against creeping authoritarianism by the cops. You have the right to record video in public. Cops are given extraordinary powers to be armed and enforce edicts on the people. It is only fair that the people are given the right to ensure those powers are used only for the purposes they are supposed to. That is what "first amendment auditors" do. They attempt to ensure that the rights of the people are not infringed by the police.
Yes, some of them are not very good at articulating their positions, and some of them act like assholes, but that's not the point. The point is to defend the rights pf citizens against the government and to educate the police that they are public employees subject to laws and limitations, not arbitrary overlords who can do whatever they want.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @02:34PM (2 children)
It sounds to me like what you didn't say is that cops are calling the "first amendment auditors" "sovereign citizens".
Calling them audits is fucking bullshit, it's deliberate provocations for youtube clicks.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 17 2022, @07:50AM
As long as they aren't breaking the law, I don't care what their real motivation is. They would be lucky to monetize on YouTube anyway.
If the police didn't try to intimidate, detain, and arrest auditors engaging in "suspicious" lawful activities, the resulting audits would be boring, uneventful, and wouldn't get any clicks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 18 2022, @11:15AM
I'd like to mod this obliviously correct, but unfortunately there is no such mod. Have a touche.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday July 15 2022, @08:30PM (7 children)
Cops are trained to believe anyone within 21 feet is a deadly threat. If you're 8 feet away, the cops can just shoot you dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IswY4IbF3Qk [youtube.com]
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 15 2022, @09:07PM (2 children)
I learned two things:
1. Cops have horrible aim beyond 21 feet
2. At 21 feet or more distance there is no possible way anyone could be a threat
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by tizan on Friday July 15 2022, @09:22PM
I am training to spit more than 21 feet !
(Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @09:30PM
At 21 feet or more distance there is no possible way anyone not holding an AR-15 could be a threat.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 5, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @09:23PM
>shoot you dead.
And replace the camera in your dead hand with a drop piece to prove they were justified.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Touché) by Mr Big in the Pants on Saturday July 16 2022, @07:49PM (2 children)
On the range I would cap a running target at least 5/6 shots at 300m.
21 ft my ass...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 17 2022, @04:38AM (1 child)
The big question for a police officer responding to someone with a knife is, how long does it take to unholster, unsafety, and take some semblance of aim?
Accuracy on a range doesn't even come into the equation until after the knife is buried in you.
(Score: 2) by Mr Big in the Pants on Sunday July 17 2022, @06:52PM
Did self-defence knife training.
It is not just the shooter that you have to factor in.
People keep moving after they are effectively 'dead' because their bodies don't realise it yet.
They can cross a room, stab you, and then die.
So distance is very important even with knives.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Snotnose on Friday July 15 2022, @09:24PM (11 children)
When cops arrest someone, especially a family member, things get hinky really fast. If memory serves it takes 21 feet for someone with a knife to defeat someone with a holstered gun.
Can you imagine being a cop with 5-10 hostile folks within 8 feet, trying to subdue an asshole, and wondering which of those are going to knife you in the back?
I don't trust cops, think they're trigger happy and hate the way they're trained to mag dump on anyone in the shadows with a cellphone
But in this case, yeah, I agree with the cops.
I just passed a drug test. My dealer has some explaining to do.
(Score: 5, Touché) by tizan on Friday July 15 2022, @09:52PM
So making it illegal to record within 8 feet (1 hand is busy with phone) will make the cop safer when there is a hostile crowd around him..than having a crowd of non filming i.e with both hands free.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by pe1rxq on Friday July 15 2022, @09:56PM (1 child)
In the sane part of the world it is NOT ok to shoot anyone who is within 8 feet of you just because you are scared.
In the sane part of the world is also wondering why you are allowed to come closer to a cop with covid than with a camera or phone......
(Score: 2) by srobert on Sunday July 17 2022, @03:59PM
"In the sane part of the world ..."
But this is America.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by helel on Friday July 15 2022, @10:14PM (4 children)
It's a hundred time more dangerous to be near a cop than it is to be a cop, statistically speaking. If being worried about someone nearby attacking you is justification for police to shoot someone just because they're worried it's a hundred times more valid for any one of those bystanders to shoot the cop because they are also afraid.
Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Saturday July 16 2022, @02:33AM (3 children)
It's a vicious circle: cops are terrified some random person is going to stab/shoot them, so they shoot first...as this keeps happening, people get more paranoid about being shot by the cops, and thus treat the cops with more hostility.
Cops are supposed to be public servants. Maybe they should think a bit more about protecting the public rather than themselves? "Cops are people too, with families" etc. etc....yeah, you know who else are people? The people they're shooting. So try to lean a bit more into your job where you're supposed to be helping people, and less into making sure you're protecting yourself.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Thexalon on Saturday July 16 2022, @10:37AM (2 children)
That's not really it though. As the bad guy in Uvalde proved beyond a doubt, if they think somebody is a genuine threat, they tend to pull their punches, even as civilians aged 10 years old are dying right near them.
These guys are, in a lot of cases, nothing more than professional bullies. By which I mean they're often the very same people who used to push their classmates into the lockers, who've grown up and figured out that they can get a nice big salary doing the same sort of thing wearing a blue uniform. An ex-cop friend of mine talked about how in the academy, there were certain departments in the area that the guys were talking quite openly about joining if the reason they became a cop was to be able to beat people up and get paid to do it. And like all bullies, they pick their targets based on who society as a whole generally won't act to protect: The poor, the racial minorities, the immigrants, the gays, the homeless, those annoying protesters, and anyone else who is considered inconvenient.
So no, they don't shoot first because they're scared. They shoot first because they'd love to get rid of that guy, and say they're terrified so they can get away with it.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @05:32PM (1 child)
> the bad guy in Uvalde
Which one? You mean the one covering up the corrupt police dept?
(Score: 2) by https on Sunday July 17 2022, @04:31AM
Nobody's covering up anything. Not effectively, anyways.
Offended and laughing about it.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday July 16 2022, @07:42AM (2 children)
Well, one problem is that when a police officer pulls your car and over and arrests you on false charges, your dash cam recording is now illegal...
compiling...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @03:35PM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday July 16 2022, @05:18PM
That's not what the letter of the bill says:
( https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/2R/bills/HB2319S.pdf [azleg.gov] )
So, absurdly enough, if you're interfering with unlawful police actions, you're not allowed to record.
There's a reason law schools teach formal logic and truth tables in the first semester.
compiling...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by EJ on Friday July 15 2022, @10:38PM (6 children)
IMO, the law shouldn't be about recording. The law should just be about "staying the f**k back from cops doing their jobs." It can have a special clause to say that it makes no exception for people trying to record.
I don't care if you're trying to record or not. You should not crowd around cops who are trying to do their job. Just like with EMS. Back the f**k up to give them some room.
Making this law about recording just creates more problems than it solves.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @01:37AM (4 children)
Oh, it solves one problem: it's one more thing the cops can charge bystanders with when they record the cops misbehaving.
This law will be used as a cudgel against anyone that dares to record them. The chilling effects this will have is entirely the point.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by EJ on Saturday July 16 2022, @02:49AM (3 children)
The problem is that it focuses on recording. So, someone can be closer than 8 feet as long as they aren't recording? Yeah, no.
I agree with the chilling effect side of it. That's why I said the law creates more problems than it solves. It also opens the entire thing up to being ripped to shreds by an ACLU lawsuit.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Saturday July 16 2022, @04:11PM
With the current SCOTUS, I'm pretty sure the people who want to turn the US into an authoritarian state and pass laws like this one to further that goal aren't worried about that.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @05:35PM (1 child)
Judge rules any recordings made were obtained illegally, therefore inadmissible as evidence. Ta da! There are no more problems.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 17 2022, @05:10AM
Those recordings rarely make it into court. They either force police depts to settle cases or they go viral on youtube.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 17 2022, @05:17AM
I've watched a few of those videos, cops will just arrest anyone that close for "obstruction". What this does is give them a clear and easy charge to add. It also means that those arrested now have to provide ID. Refusing to show ID is legal unless you are charged with something, and that refusal (common amongst "auditors") gets right up cops noses.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by turgid on Saturday July 16 2022, @09:34AM (1 child)
If you've done nothing wrong, there's no need to hide and you have nothing to fear, surely? Surveillance makes us all happy, healthy and safe. Who could possibly object?
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @05:38PM
Not quite there... we somehow need the rules to only apply to working people, not the wealthy who need to be able to do the fuck they want any time. Their world is a Disneyland playground with servers taking care of their needs for tips ("You need to work faster, you silly dolphin!").
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 16 2022, @02:51PM
use an 8 foot selfie stick held above your head