Mars Spaghetti: NASA's Perseverance Rover Spots a Strange Tangle:
Every now and then, NASA's rovers spot things that don't seem to fit with the usual Martian landscape: Just a few months ago, Curiosity imaged what appeared to be a doorway. A new image from the Perseverance rover is grabbing similar attention for capturing what appears to be a tangle of string.
On July 12, Perseverance's front-facing hazard avoidance camera imaged a Martian tumbleweed — er, a piece of trash. A NASA spokesperson said in an email that the object must be some debris from the mission, though it's not yet clear exactly what it is.
[...] Mars may have once been habitable billions of years ago, but the dry planet is very likely devoid of life today. But that doesn't stop speculation about aliens from running wild every time something appears slightly off in a Martian postcard. Perfect ordinary natural phenomenon (or at least, as "ordinary" as anything on Mars can be to our human eyes) can create optical illusions when translated into grainy 2D images. Past examples of supposed oddities on Mars include a hiding squirrel, a spoon, an artificial light, and a human face.
Although the single-serving Martian pasta dish appears to be harmless, it does raise concern over the various missions to Mars littering the planet with debris. NASA and other space agencies decontaminate spacecraft before sending them off on missions to avoid spreading Earthly microbes in space. But landing on another planet is bound to leave pieces of wreckage behind, and there's really no way for the robot to pick up after itself.
(Score: 5, Touché) by DannyB on Wednesday July 20 2022, @04:31PM (23 children)
Should we really be concerned about littering Mars? We don't care about littering Earth. As a species we're working together to make Earth uninhabitable for humans. So why not also make Mars uninhabitable for humans?
Manifest Destiny.
Capitalism and unbridled greed and its end results must expand to Mars.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 3, Funny) by Opportunist on Wednesday July 20 2022, @04:34PM (1 child)
A new take on the old Soviet joke?
Q: "Is it possible to expert Communism to Switzerland?"
A: "Yes. But what unforgivable crime did Switzerland commit to deserve that fate?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 20 2022, @05:06PM
Obviously the crime of unbridled capitalistic greed.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday July 20 2022, @05:11PM (16 children)
Unless there is a serious effort to terraform the entire planet, pretty much all life on Mars will be indoors (maybe there will be some microbes in a lake a mile below the surface). Piles of garbage will not destroy the "environment", and you won't be breathing in tire particles because you'll be walking around in a spacesuit if you're outside. The high shipping costs/times will incentivize recycling and reducing waste.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday July 20 2022, @06:11PM (7 children)
I mean, he was essentially trolling. Since Mars is currently uninhabitable by humans. Due to the fact that there is no breathable atmosphere. Let alone the whole desert like wasteland that is the current environment of Mars.
In the event that we ever get to industrial capabilities on Mars. There could theoretically be an issue with pollution / additional particles in the atmosphere that could damage suits/habitats and/or issues with cleaning said suits/habitats from said pollution.
One would hope that those kinds of things would be thought about, before we get there. But, who knows, if we ever get to that point. There could be a future where we only remotely (robots, etc.) harvest everything of use to us from Mars, and ship it to Earth/Moon? As living on a rock that is at best over 3 months (at worst 11 months) from someone sending emergency relief to you, is much more risky than a place like the Moon. As the Moon could easily receive a delivery of emergency supplies in 3 or 4 days.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Wednesday July 20 2022, @09:47PM
Deadpan responses to trolling are my speciality.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Touché) by anubi on Thursday July 21 2022, @12:31PM
Best troll I've read in quite some time.
The best ones are couched in Truth...
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday July 21 2022, @01:30PM (4 children)
Then again, we're currently living on Earth, a rock an *infinite distance* from any (known) outside assistance, so both the moon and Mars could actually be safer, once they hit "critical mass" for stable self-sufficiency. As well as making Earth safer.
It will be dangerous at first, but that's always the case for new colonies. When Europe colonized the Americas they were months away as well, and already filled with natives who often objected to the invasion. Granted, there was already a compatible ecosystem there, but at the time high technology amounted to sailing ships, gunpowder, and bleeding people with leeches. It's not clear that offworld colonies with modern and near-future technologies will be inherently more dangerous than that.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday July 21 2022, @03:29PM (3 children)
The difference is that colonies based on an already habitable planet don't have anywhere near the trouble that a Moon or Mars colony will have. Building an undersea colony would be somewhat more like a Moon/Mars colony. Except that salt water is highly corrosive and causes it's own issues. Where a vacuum or very little atmosphere may actually be easier to deal with than the issues with high pressure and salt water. I highly doubt a Moon colony will be able to be self-sustaining. (Unless one can insert, fairy tale, science fiction, magic device, that gets around all that.) A Moon colony will rely on a certain amount of imports, most likely, forever. Mars on the other hand, potentially has enough of everything to truly become self-sustaining. That potential is yet to be proven and needs a lot of human/robotic/financial exploration/risk. All of which takes time.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday July 22 2022, @12:03AM (2 children)
Right - like I said, these problems will be much more difficult - but we also have much more advanced technology at our disposal with which to solve them.
For the moon - it does seem likely that hydrocarbons will be a big import for growth. It does have plenty of oxygen though, so flammable hydrocarbon imports can be easily converted to the water and CO2 it lacks. And those could come from either Earth or asteroids. Or even the carbonaceous meteorites littering its surface, for a (long) while. Trace bio-elements remain to be seen, but are also much less of a problem as imports.
Where the moon shines though is business value. In a capitalist society, money makes the world go round. And the moon has much profit to offer as a handy nearby source of orbital oxygen (80+% of the propellant mass of modern rockets), along with iron, aluminum, titanium, and all the silicon you could want. And even raw regolith - lunar concrete could make for excellent radiation shielding on space stations and cyclers.
It's the ultimate industrial asteroid base - 25x as massive as the entire asteroid belt, rich in oxygen(80+% the mass of modern rocket fuels), silicon, iron, and aluminum. And conveniently placed roughly halfway between Earth and everywhere else in the solar system, where it can also serve as a potent transportation hub.
Its mass and lack of atmosphere mean that that a wide range mass drivers systems become quite viable as launch systems, freeing transportation from the tyranny of the rocket equation. A full-scale SpinLaunch "first stage" launch system would be just shy of enough to launch directly from the Moon's surface to co-lunar orbit, and the L4/L5 points. And only a modest bit more needed to reach a Mars or Venus transfer orbit. Or for passengers, a 3g maglev launch system would only need to be 100km long to reach orbit, or 150km for Mars transfer.
Even if it always relies on imports for ecological growth, it could become such an economic powerhouse that that isn't a problem.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Friday July 22 2022, @02:44PM (1 child)
Depends on what you call roughly half way between. It's pretty much hugging the Earth. That doesn't make it any less useful as a transportation hub, though. It could be an ideal staging area for most interplanetary missions, etc.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday July 23 2022, @12:28AM
Yeah, distance-wise it's on our doorstep, which is great for speedy exchanges with Earth.
In terms of kinetic energy needed to reach a destination though, it's about halfway between Earth and anywhere in the solar system. Well, plus a modest side detour into its own gravity well, but with non-rocket propulsion that's not so much of a big deal.
Also, in terms of servicing Mars, the asteroid belt, etc. in a timely fashion, it may actually be superior to most alternatives - put a resupply base on Ceres (~2.8AU, orbital period = 4.6 Earth years), and a nearby asteroid with a period 10% longer or shorter (= orbital radius ~6% larger or smaller) is going to take ~10 orbits = 46 years to before it passes nearby again. The average Euclidean distance between them will be about 4/3r = 3.7AU. Meanwhile they'll both pass within ~1.8AU of Earth every 14 months or so.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday July 20 2022, @07:55PM (1 child)
In a non-terraformed Mars where living is done indoors, there will naturally be some incentive to keep the environment clean and maintained. Unlike on Earth where air, water and land are "unlimited" !
Even then, I suspect some may develop a lax attitude and won't care that their own activities for their own profit may affect others adversely. (privatizing the prophets, socializing the costs) It is the selfish thing to do. Therefore incentive to do it.
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Immerman on Saturday July 23 2022, @12:33AM
Conversely, in a small closed system it's far more obvious who exactly is imposing social costs, and how much.
There's thus much greater incentive for society to crack down on such abuses.
We can hope at least. On Earth the worst abusers tend to often also wield grossly disproportionate political power, which they leverage to maintain their place at the free lunch train.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Wednesday July 20 2022, @11:27PM (5 children)
There actually *is* cause for worry. The problem is that if we find some, possibly dead, microbe how do we tell whether it's native or imported?
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday July 21 2022, @01:36PM (4 children)
We do genetic analysis and see if it's a close relative to anything we know from Earth? Anything native to Mars will have been diverging for millions if not billions of years, if it's related at all. And if it's not related it's a fair bet it will use a different information carrying molecule.
The bigger problem is that as Earth microbes adapt to the Martian environment, their biomarkers may obscure those of any natives, making any natives much more difficult to find - a needle in a haystack. And at present, the possibility of discovering life on Mars seems to be the only thing of any value the planet has to offer.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday July 21 2022, @05:44PM (3 children)
IIUC, the surface conditions of Mars are such that DNA and RNA won't survive, and even proteins will be rapidly degraded. We should be able to tell that some sort of protein was there, but not enough to resolve matters. But radioactive dating might be able to place when it showed up. Perhaps. Dating is often quite difficult and is often done based on the materials around the sample.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday July 21 2022, @10:35PM (2 children)
It seems unlikely we'll find any useful remains on the surface of Mars. Millions of years of wind, volatile chemistry, and radiation will have destroyed most anything recognizable.
Unless of course life is currently living there. Several Earth microbes are known that should be able to survive on (or just barely under) the Martian surface, some would happily consume the perchlorates for energy. Once they're introduced to Mars it seems likely they'll spread across the planet in relatively short order. And it's entirely reasonable to assume that if native life ever existed, some survivors will still be there as well. And living microbes will have their DNA (or whatever) still in good working order for analysis.
The problem that arises is that, okay you found some life. Now, how do you figure out if it's from Mars or Earth?
Microbes are pretty simplistic, form-follows-function organisms - I doubt you could easily spot a that a microscope slide was full of Martian lookalikes with a few Earth microbes mixed in - not unless they were something very alien.
Best-case we do bulk DNA analysis and discover things only very distantly related to anything we've seen before. That's great - now we know that Mars life shares a common ancestor with Earth, and there's Mars life in our sample - we just have to try to figure out which ones are which.
But if it's truly alien life - all that reveals is the Earth life, and we run the risk of overlooking the nature of all the similar-looking Mars life in front of our eyes. To avoid that you have to come up with some sort of way to eliminate the influence of Earth life in the sample without eliminating the Martian influence. Without yet knowing anything about Mars life and how it's different. Have fun.
On the other hand, so long as Mars is kept clear of Earth microbes, seeing life under the microscope while turning up no DNA is fairly conclusive proof that it's Martian, and you can move on to trying to understand ow it works.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday July 22 2022, @01:10AM (1 child)
If it's live, then DNA should clearly answer the question. If it's found just under the surface, and dead, then things are a bit dicier. The DNA is likely gone. Proteins are more durable, but the soil isn't friendly to them, either. So it could be just arrived, but buried in a crash or dust storm.
That said, it's not likely to be a big problem, because earth life won't easily spread on Mars, so sampling over a wider area should solve the problem. But it could easily cause some initial confusion.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday July 23 2022, @01:26AM
> If it's found just under the surface, and dead, then things are a bit dicier.
Absolutely. But if there's any dead remains to find (as opposed to fossil traces), then odds are very good that there's billions of still-living cousins somewhere nearby. I just don't see the value in worrying about investigating remains unless living organisms remain frustratingly elusive. Especially not if there's no cheap and easy way to dismiss Earth-life as their source.
It's a nice thought - but I have my doubts. Like I said we already know of several that should be able to survive okay. Add in the increased mutation rates from radiation exposure, the fact that they can potentially go through dozens of generations of evolution per day, and many can even exchange useful mutations between individuals of different species? I suspect that the only thing that will slow the spread of Earth life is a thriving Martian ecosystem. I mean, e-coli in a 2'x4' petri dish were able to evolve to survive 1000x the lethal dose of antibiotics in only 11 days (highly recommended 2 min. video [youtube.com]). Even if Earth life can mostly only initially thrive in marginal "enriched" environments around human colonies, I wouldn't bet against it evolving to spread into more natural environments fairly quickly. And given the seeming ubiquity of subsurface moisture, and the frequency of windstorms that could easily distribute a thriving microbe colony across millions of square miles of new potential habitat, from there I suspect it will be pretty much everywhere within years.
To my mind, the only thing that might seriously slow down Earth life, is competition from more well-adapted Mars life. But if even some Earth life manages to cohabit... to bulk genetic analysis a colony of 1% Earth life and 99% unrelated (=probably non-DNA based) life looks just like a colony of 100% Earth life.
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Wednesday July 20 2022, @05:38PM (3 children)
Uhhh... Mission accomplished?
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday July 20 2022, @08:00PM (2 children)
I think you are mistaken. I would quote former Republican vice president Quayle:
[1] [uh.edu]
[2] [quotepark.com]
[3] [cmu.edu]
[4] [uoregon.edu]
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Wednesday July 20 2022, @08:19PM
I guess I need to eat a potatoe. It's brain food.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday July 23 2022, @01:38AM
I've begun to believe that one of the consistently winning strategies for Republican politicians is to make poorly educated Republican voters feel like their intellectual peers.
I'm undecided as to the number who are actually idiot figureheads for wealthy interests, rather than con men deliberately hiding their true intentions behind a mask of incompetence.
(Score: 5, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday July 20 2022, @08:28PM (1 child)
Could it be the spaghetti monster I've heard about?
How often should I have my memory checked? I used to know but...
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday July 21 2022, @11:44PM
Nope, not him. Only the dept line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @08:38PM
We landed there in the 1970s and have kept sending more alien probes ever since.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Thursday July 21 2022, @11:47AM
Wallace and Gromit showed us that there's a robot on the moon [fandom.com] who tidies up after messy people.